Guest guest Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Vince, Only one problem with using the alpha-bet. It requires going through the auditory to write, which is sequential where visual is pictorial and Kinesthetic is everywhere. My suspension is you can feel the entire alpha-bet even quicker than you can visualize it. Kinesthetically, you can do it in a nano-second, where with visual you must first bring up a picture of the Kinesthetic feeling of the whole alpha-bet and then actually look at the picture and then get a kinesthetic feeling/check that the picture is right and then go to auditory to report. When someone is a " recovering kino " they do the above strategy but instead of getting a kinesthetic feeling that the picture is right and then going to auditory to report, they go to kinesthetic not for a feeling of right but for the fuller feeling of experiencing the alpha-bet and time isn't the factor, experiencing is, so they have to slow down the experience (many think they have to speed up) to put the feeling into words. Auditory is always in the past speaking of the past or possible future but it is to slow to be in the present. I suspect the reason people can't find words to describe what they are feeling is because they have to slow down to the speed of sound. (The mind being mostly auditory based calls it speeding up to stay important.) The reason athletes in the Zone use VeK for action (see/do) is because visual is actually 169x faster (186000 / 1100) than sound and the Kinesthetic (being) is even faster than light because it " is " the present. Auditory digital is necessary for human consciousness (illusion) but not for human awareness (action or response). Auditory (Ad) has its uses but it's speed it to slow for action and most of the time it not only slows down action, it stops it altogether. Utilize Everything, Dr. Houston (Doc Results) Vetter http://www.achieve-your-potential.com At 06:54 PM 5/17/2005, you wrote: --- docspeed2001 <docspeed2001 wrote: > --- In > , > docresults > <docresults@h...> wrote: > > Hello Sue and ALL, > > A couple of thoughts... > > Kinesthetic is king because it travels faster than > visual and way, > >way faster than auditory. > > Actually I disagree with this. Me 2. I usually demonstrate this with the alpha-bet. How long does it take to write (kino) .... recite (audio) .... visualize it ... .... in fact ... you can VISUALIZE the ENTIRE alpha-bet all at one time. --Vince .... a " recovering " kino ;> Rev. James Vinson Wingo, DD " The Huna Rebel " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 Huston, > > Only one problem with using the alpha-bet. It requires going through the > auditory to write, which is sequential where visual is pictorial and > Kinesthetic is everywhere. My suspension is you can feel the entire > alpha-bet even quicker than you can visualize it. I must disagree. Studies show a speed of 200 meters/second for some large myelinated nerves. That is very fast, however light still travels faster. Still, we are talking physics of the world here, not internal representation. Because once the light hits our eyes, it has to slow down to nerve speed. Good thing our brain edits out that time lag (proven in other studies, which I don't recall at this time), so we are able to hit a moving target. But don't take my word for it. I want everyone reading to do a test and find out for themselves which is faster. Imagine 5 different pictures in your head and time how long it takes. Make 5 different sounds and time how long it takes. Have 5 different feelings and time how long it takes. > Kinesthetically, you can do it in a nano-second, where with visual you must > first bring up a picture of the Kinesthetic feeling of the whole alpha-bet > and then actually look at the picture and then get a kinesthetic > feeling/check that the picture is right and then go to auditory to report. Vince was not discussing your strategy for recalling the alphabet, Vince was talking about seeing a picture of the entire alphabet. This requires no feelings or sounds. If you have to engage feelings to make pictures, then it is going to be slow. If you need to engage any other representation system to use a representation system, it's going to be slower that using only one system. But once again, don't take my word for it. Test it out for yourself... Enjoy, Michael. www.toach.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 Mchael, Are you disagreeing that Kinesthetic feeling is in the now and doesn't move faster than visual or auditory? Having 5 different body sensations is faster than having 5 pictures or 5 sounds. Now your awareness of which is faster may be different and that is just a matter of learning to calibrate awareness of all your sensory files. To not take your word for it and test it yourself, one must first develop their calibration skills to the level of calibrating awareness of the process including the one filing system that is outside of awareness (which ever file that is). And I would say very few have done that. I would suspect those who have a lot of training with Dr. John have because it is part of the process. They may know it under different labels and yet they know it and use it. I was not discussing my strategy it was Vince's strategy. You can have a kinesthetic feeling of the whole alphabet faster than you can make a picture of the whole alphabet. Verbalizing it is faster from Visual to Auditory because both speeds are slower than Kinesthetic. Vince mentioned he was a " recovering kino " . I just gave the strategy for a " recovering kino " (Check out Dobson, Stocking, Baffa, Bandler) The accepted strategy is that every strategy ends with a Kinesthetic check before verbal reporting. The difference is with recovering kino's is they get stuck or stay in kinesthetic without using any of the other systems/files to report. In other words their strategy ends not with a kinesthetic check and then report but kinesthetic feel with not additional strategy to report. That is why it takes them so long to verbalized. The names I dropped above have all said the same thing I'm saying. All the sensory systems have their place. One is not better than the other. It just depends on the outcome you are focusing on. Flexibility with all the systems is optimum. If you have difficulty with what I'm presenting check with them. I suspect that because Kinesthetic is so far outside many peoples conscious awareness it seems slow when in actuality it is the fastest. Ever been in a room and knew someone was looking at you and you turned and someone was from across the room. The way you knew that was the movement of energy and the first of your sensory/filing systems to touch that energy is not your visual, nor auditory, it is your kinesthetics. Your energy field touches your kinesthetics first (This is so foreign many term it (ESP) Extra Sensory Perception and I think Dr. John proper called it more accurately Extended Sensory Perception or something to that effect). Then that sense traveled to your brain (which is still part of your kinesthetic system) and the movement of chemicals created the thing you call a sense or a knowing (labeled intuition) someone was looking at you etc... It is the biggest sensory organ you have and it is usually the least developed in awareness thus the mystic terminology and misunderstanding. To develop ESP or RV/RIing the process is bringing into awareness visually and then auditorially what you are already experiencing kinesthetically. The purpose for training is getting the interpretations of what the kinesthetics is giving to the visual in a more understandable fashion. Learning to trust your intuition is learning to trust your kinesthetics. (They move so fast we call it intuition.) Other words for intuition - I have a gut feeling - I have a feeling - I have a sense - etc... And usually proceeding or following the phrase " I can't explain it but... " But don't take my word for it or any of the others who said it before me. Develop the skill to calibrate all sensory data in the process and test it yourself. Utilize Everything, Dr. Houston Vetter http://www.achieve-your-potential.com At 06:57 PM 5/18/2005, you wrote: Huston, > > Only one problem with using the alpha-bet. It requires going through the > auditory to write, which is sequential where visual is pictorial and > Kinesthetic is everywhere. My suspension is you can feel the entire > alpha-bet even quicker than you can visualize it. I must disagree. Studies show a speed of 200 meters/second for some large myelinated nerves. That is very fast, however light still travels faster. Still, we are talking physics of the world here, not internal representation. Because once the light hits our eyes, it has to slow down to nerve speed. Good thing our brain edits out that time lag (proven in other studies, which I don't recall at this time), so we are able to hit a moving target. But don't take my word for it. I want everyone reading to do a test and find out for themselves which is faster. Imagine 5 different pictures in your head and time how long it takes. Make 5 different sounds and time how long it takes. Have 5 different feelings and time how long it takes. > Kinesthetically, you can do it in a nano-second, where with visual you must > first bring up a picture of the Kinesthetic feeling of the whole alpha-bet > and then actually look at the picture and then get a kinesthetic > feeling/check that the picture is right and then go to auditory to report. Vince was not discussing your strategy for recalling the alphabet, Vince was talking about seeing a picture of the entire alphabet. This requires no feelings or sounds. If you have to engage feelings to make pictures, then it is going to be slow. If you need to engage any other representation system to use a representation system, it's going to be slower that using only one system. But once again, don't take my word for it. Test it out for yourself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Houston, > > Are you disagreeing that Kinesthetic feeling is in the now and doesn't move > faster than visual or auditory? Interesting question. I am saying that Kinaesthetic moves slower that visual, and maybe slower that auditory. I make no statement about Kinaesthetic being in the now or not. > Having 5 different body sensations is faster than having 5 pictures or 5 > sounds. Now your awareness of which is faster may be different and that is > just a matter of learning to calibrate awareness of all your sensory files. > > To not take your word for it and test it yourself, one must first develop > their calibration skills to the level of calibrating awareness of the > process including the one filing system that is outside of awareness (which > ever file that is). And I would say very few have done that. I would > suspect those who have a lot of training with Dr. John have because it is > part of the process. They may know it under different labels and yet they > know it and use it. Because this list is based on real world skills, what drills will you suggest to the other readers (and to me, as I seem to be deficient) to enable them to have the awareness and make that choice for themselves rather than taking your word for it? > I was not discussing my strategy it was Vince's strategy. You can have a > kinesthetic feeling of the whole alphabet faster than you can make a > picture of the whole alphabet. Once again I disagree, but I'm beginning to suspect that we are talking about different things. > Verbalizing it is faster from Visual to > Auditory because both speeds are slower than Kinesthetic. I don't understand this statement. To me that is the same as saying 1 + 2 = 3 because they are less than 4. Verbalising the alphabet may be transferring from Visual to Auditory, or maybe Kinaesthetic to Auditory, or Internal Dialogue to Auditory, etc, etc. > Vince mentioned > he was a " recovering kino " . I just gave the strategy for a " recovering > kino " (Check out Dobson, Stocking, Baffa, Bandler) The strategy for a " recovering kino " to do what? Is it the old strategy the kino is recovering from, or the new strategy the kino is recovering to, or something else? > The accepted strategy is that every strategy ends with a Kinesthetic check > before verbal reporting. The difference is with recovering kino's is they > get stuck or stay in kinesthetic without using any of the other > systems/files to report. In other words their strategy ends not with a > kinesthetic check and then report but kinesthetic feel with not additional > strategy to report. That is why it takes them so long to verbalized. This is often the case. Though I'm curious how discussing VAK strategies effects the conversation we are having about relative speeds of the different modalities. > The names I dropped above have all said the same thing I'm saying. All the > sensory systems have their place. One is not better than the other. It just > depends on the outcome you are focusing on. Flexibility with all the > systems is optimum. If you have difficulty with what I'm presenting check > with them. I think you're pulling the conversation into a discussion on strategy rather than relative speeds. I have not had enough experience with Dobson to comment. However Bandler in Persuasion Engineering, Patterns I and II, and even structure of magic (along with various of his videos and recordings) implies something other than " kinaesthetic is the fastest " . Baffa similarly will Slow Down when wanting to fully engage the Kinaesthetics. Can you show me specific references that I've missed? > > I suspect that because Kinesthetic is so far outside many peoples conscious > awareness it seems slow when in actuality it is the fastest. Ever been in a > room and knew someone was looking at you and you turned and someone was > from across the room. The way you knew that was the movement of energy and > the first of your sensory/filing systems to touch that energy is not your > visual, nor auditory, it is your kinesthetics. Your energy field touches > your kinesthetics first (This is so foreign many term it (ESP) Extra > Sensory Perception and I think Dr. John proper called it more accurately > Extended Sensory Perception or something to that effect). Then that sense > traveled to your brain (which is still part of your kinesthetic system) and > the movement of chemicals created the thing you call a sense or a knowing > (labeled intuition) someone was looking at you etc... I'm curious about the timing of this. What is everyone's experience of staring at The back of someone's head, and having them turn around? For me it's not that fast (about 3-5 seconds). Though I'm curious, in the example above what happened prior to `create a sense' felt in the K modality. > It is the biggest sensory organ you have and it is usually the least > developed in awareness thus the mystic terminology and misunderstanding. I agree with you there. After chatting with a professor of neurology once, I started watching peoples feet for differences. Apparently, the two main nerves that connect you brain to each foot are a different length (somewhat related to handedness). So, with considerable acuity, you can watch a change in their physiology hit one foot first, then the other, after travelling down the whole body like a wave. There are a few studies out there that I can attempt to dig up if people are interested. Similarly, after doing some tapping, or other energy work, watching closely you can see the changes move through the body like a wave. I would think that if K was faster than V and A, you would not be able to watch it! This is my experience, and this is the experience I question your statements of " K is faster than V and A. " > > To develop ESP or RV/RIing the process is bringing into awareness visually > and then auditorially what you are already experiencing kinesthetically. > The purpose for training is getting the interpretations of what the > kinesthetics is giving to the visual in a more understandable fashion. I agree with you there. > Learning to trust your intuition is learning to trust your kinesthetics. > (They move so fast we call it intuition.) From your statement above (They move so fast we call it intuition) I read that if you are not aware of something it means it moves too fast to be aware of. Is this the case? Bandler and Grinder talk about intuition in Patterns II as the final K of a VAK strategy that is below conscious awareness. > But don't take my word for it or any of the others who said it before me. > Develop the skill to calibrate all sensory data in the process and test it > yourself. And again, for the rest of the people reading this, what drills would you suggest to develop the skills to calibrate? Enjoy, Michael. www.toach.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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