electronic friendship

[Guest guest]

In response to Florie, Maya, Grandmabear Ellie, Bluemoon, Susette and Talk with

trees,

let me first agree with Ellie that Florie's response was indeed a good one, she

has a way with words hasn't she. Can I also say that I thought Bluemoon's qoute

was very apt, (for those of you who weren't paying attention - " oh the comfort,

the inexpressable comfort, of feeling safe with a person, having neither to

weigh thoughts, nor measure words... " - George Elliot).

 

But I must disagree with both you Florie and Maya, cordially of course, I don't

see this type of communication as an extension of letter writing. With letter

writing you nearly always know the person you are writing to and they you. This

allows the barrier of human preconceptions and judgements to subconsciously come

into play. But with anonymous interaction the human element can be so diluted as

to be almost non-existent. If the content of this communication is of a serious

and personal nature then I find the words will flow in a much less restricted

and more satisfying way. I believe we have a need to let go of what stirs within

us, to express emotions and attitudes which may be embarrassing or even

dangerous on a one to one visual encounter. With this medium we can do that.

 

In fact I would go so far as to suggest that, with this medium, we are not

communicating human to human but spirit to spirit. I should clarify that remark

by saying that I am not human. I am a spirit temporarily in human form. I have a

male form but I am neither male nor female, The body I received at birth has

been in existence for 52 years but I may be older than the hills. Susette sees

me as Irish and yes there are celtic genes, circulating within me, genes that

give me that humour and irreverence she refers to, but I am not Irish (nor

English either I hasten to add). I don't belong here, nor do any of us. We come

from the real world into this creation where we go through a developmental

process and later, through the gateway we call death, we get to go home.

 

But in the meantime, we as spiritual beings, need to talk to each other, to

support each other as we feel our way through life. We need to know we are not

alone. We need to sound off each other and we can do this much more effectively

if we can step outside of our human restrictions. The computers and the words on

screen are human tools, but what is taking place is interaction at an almost

pure spiritual level and that my friends is what I call real friendship.

 

cordially yours

 

Jaylink.

(Temporarily Ireland)

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your thoughtful comments on this thread.

 

More below:

-

" jaylink " <jaylink

 

Monday, October 09, 2000 5:52 PM

electronic friendship

>

> But I must disagree with both you Florie and Maya, cordially of course, I

don't see this type of communication as an extension of letter writing. With

letter writing you nearly always know the person you are writing to and they

you. This allows the barrier of human preconceptions and judgements to

subconsciously come into play. But with anonymous interaction the human

element can be so diluted as to be almost non-existent. If the content of

this communication is of a serious and personal nature then I find the words

will flow in a much less restricted and more satisfying way. I believe we

have a need to let go of what stirs within us, to express emotions and

attitudes which may be embarrassing or even dangerous on a one to one visual

encounter. With this medium we can do that.

>

I'm not sure I see this as a disagreement so much as looking at the same

situation from slightly different viewpoints. I absolutely agree with your

ideas regarding the content of communication and the ease of using a more

anonymous medium. I don't however, feel that letter writing and online

communication (nor the content contained therein) must be mutually

exclusive.

 

> In fact I would go so far as to suggest that, with this medium, we are not

communicating human to human but spirit to spirit.

>

Certainly. As I stated in an earlier post to you, I had no idea of your

sex, age, or any of the other attributes we so often use to identify

ourselves and others. I was communicating to an entity of undefined

paramaters. Spirit to spirit, soul to soul, ashes to ashes, take your pick.

Communing in cyberspace is certainly a wonderful gift.

 

> But in the meantime, we as spiritual beings, need to talk to each other,

to support each other as we feel our way through life. We need to know we

are not alone. We need to sound off each other and we can do this much more

effectively if we can step outside of our human restrictions. The computers

and the words on screen are human tools, but what is taking place is

interaction at an almost pure spiritual level and that my friends is what I

call real friendship.

>

Agreed. I'm not certain that my original post to you was saying something

extraordinarily opposed to the above. You asked why I would want to be your

friend. My reply was that I felt good feelings toward you. That is enough

reason for me to consider someone a " friend " . So, Jaylink...I again offer

my virtual hand; unilaterally, if need be, in " friendship " , whatever your

definition of that word may be, and thank you for a most stimulating

exchange of ideas.

 

Florie

 

PS: I'll be bringing several friends over to use your swimming pool. We'll

all be hungry and probably will need a place to stay for a few days. Also,

I'm a little short this week, can you spare some dough 'till payday...and

can I borrow your car to run a few errands?

[Guest guest]

I met my wife on-line. The observation that I made at the time was that this

form of communication is more two-dimensional. That is to say that the

thoughts being expressed were expressed without reservation. This is

because, unlike face-to-face conversation, we weren't able to edit on the

fly in reaction to facial expression or other non-verbal means.

 

It's like public speaking, in a sense. I think that one of the things that

makes public speaking the most feared thing in America (yes, it beat out

death) is the act of putting one's ideas out there without any " course

correcting " feedback.

 

 

> " jaylink " <jaylink

>

>

> electronic friendship

>Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:52:40 +0100

>

>In response to Florie, Maya, Grandmabear Ellie, Bluemoon, Susette and Talk

>with trees,

>let me first agree with Ellie that Florie's response was indeed a good one,

>she has a way with words hasn't she. Can I also say that I thought

>Bluemoon's qoute was very apt, (for those of you who weren't paying

>attention - " oh the comfort, the inexpressable comfort, of feeling safe

>with a person, having neither to weigh thoughts, nor measure words... " -

>George Elliot).

>

>But I must disagree with both you Florie and Maya, cordially of course, I

>don't see this type of communication as an extension of letter writing.

>With letter writing you nearly always know the person you are writing to

>and they you. This allows the barrier of human preconceptions and

>judgements to subconsciously come into play. But with anonymous interaction

>the human element can be so diluted as to be almost non-existent. If the

>content of this communication is of a serious and personal nature then I

>find the words will flow in a much less restricted and more satisfying way.

>I believe we have a need to let go of what stirs within us, to express

>emotions and attitudes which may be embarrassing or even dangerous on a one

>to one visual encounter. With this medium we can do that.

>

>In fact I would go so far as to suggest that, with this medium, we are not

>communicating human to human but spirit to spirit. I should clarify that

>remark by saying that I am not human. I am a spirit temporarily in human

>form. I have a male form but I am neither male nor female, The body I

>received at birth has been in existence for 52 years but I may be older

>than the hills. Susette sees me as Irish and yes there are celtic genes,

>circulating within me, genes that give me that humour and irreverence she

>refers to, but I am not Irish (nor English either I hasten to add). I don't

>belong here, nor do any of us. We come from the real world into this

>creation where we go through a developmental process and later, through the

>gateway we call death, we get to go home.

>

>But in the meantime, we as spiritual beings, need to talk to each other, to

>support each other as we feel our way through life. We need to know we are

>not alone. We need to sound off each other and we can do this much more

>effectively if we can step outside of our human restrictions. The computers

>and the words on screen are human tools, but what is taking place is

>interaction at an almost pure spiritual level and that my friends is what I

>call real friendship.

>

>cordially yours

>

>Jaylink.

>(Temporarily Ireland)

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

" Ray Hunter " <rayhuntermt

 

Monday, October 09, 2000 6:35 PM

Re: electronic friendship

 

 

> I met my wife on-line. The observation that I made at the time was that

this

> form of communication is more two-dimensional. That is to say that the

> thoughts being expressed were expressed without reservation. This is

> because, unlike face-to-face conversation, we weren't able to edit on the

> fly in reaction to facial expression or other non-verbal means.

>

Dear Ray;

 

I know quite a few couples who met online. They all seem to be

extraordinarily well-suited to each other. What, other than the above, do

you feel makes the difference in communicating with " the one " ? Did it take

you a very long time to develop trust and affection or did you have a sense

of who she (the woman who was to become your wife) was almost immediately?

Do you think that the necessity of unreservedly expressing your true

thoughts would have hindered you in a face to face situation, or do you

think that the two of you would have found each other, regardless? Either

way, congratulations on finding your soul mate and much happiness always.

 

Florie

[Guest guest]

Hi Ray (and everyone else),

 

You've made a very good point. Being able to express ourselves without

reservation is wonderful. There are many people who communicate and decide

to become acquaintances, then friends, with people based on " rules " of

acceptance that they were raised with. This is a very self limiting

practice.

Many people base :acceptance " or " rejection " of willingness to talk to

people based on many things.....social status, income, looks etc.

The internet removes these boundaries and allows us to view the most

important aspect of a person ..... their words.

I know someone who judges people based on looks and their wealth and will

NOT even consider talking with anyone that doesn't fit her idea of " worthy " .

This is quite sad and regardless of how many times or how many ways I might

try to tell her that she is missing out on so many possible friendships,

learning experiences and simple joys in life, she will not be swayed.

 

Also, although through regular posting, we no longer become as anonymous,

that certain realm of anonymity provides so many people with an ability to

" venture out " and express themselves that they would find difficult to do in

face to face.

 

I have been on certain lists for years and have made so many true and life

lasting friends. These are friends that I would not normally have been

exposed to in day to day life (based on interests etc.).

 

True " letter writing " is becoming something of the past. But I believe that

it is because we have the technologies to make contact in a much shorter

time frame. It is my belief that the only difference between letter writing

and email writing is that one is written with pen and paper and the other is

typed on a screen.

Using email does not prevent me from expressing my deepest feelings to my

friends. In fact, it helps in that I can do a cut and paste when I see that

something I might have written doesn't sound all too clear. Whereas with pen

and paper, I can only hope that a mistake that I have made is not in the

middle or at the bottom of a page.

 

Kristin

[Guest guest]

Florie wrote :

 

 

> Do you think that the necessity of unreservedly expressing your true

> thoughts would have hindered you in a face to face situation ....

 

 

Florie,

 

I think this is exactly why so many people enjoy participating on email

lists so comfortably. To be able to unreservedly express our

thoughts...without being interrupted, rejected in mid sentence etc. ..... is

so encouraging.

Mind you, I don't mind interruption and thought rejection when done nicely.

However, with email with the right attitude,

disagreement with someone on a list can actually be very educational for all

involved (I can think of a particular incident on another list that could

have been educational for some but wasn't-lol).

 

Kristin

[Guest guest]

Thanks, I feel most fortunate. A lot of it has to do with the lack of

feedback. We both had to speak our hearts without any way of telling how it

was being received. Because of this, as well as the fact that we weren't

effected by sexual attraction (yet), we were able to be totally honest. When

we discovered that we were on similar paths and possessed similar beliefs,

love emerged.

 

We knew even before we met, but I'll admit that we were bth relieved when we

saw each other and the sexual sparks flew. It would have been so sad if one

of hadn't been attracted to the other. But, it didn't work that way. That

was six years ago and we've been married for five.

 

Hope that answered your question.

 

Ray

 

 

> " Richard M. Gray, Ph.D. and Florence Tomasulo Gray "

><florie

>

>

>Re: electronic friendship

>Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:45:02 -0400

>

>

>-

> " Ray Hunter " <rayhuntermt

>

>Monday, October 09, 2000 6:35 PM

>Re: electronic friendship

>

>

> > I met my wife on-line. The observation that I made at the time was that

>this

> > form of communication is more two-dimensional. That is to say that the

> > thoughts being expressed were expressed without reservation. This is

> > because, unlike face-to-face conversation, we weren't able to edit on

>the

> > fly in reaction to facial expression or other non-verbal means.

> >

> Dear Ray;

>

>I know quite a few couples who met online. They all seem to be

>extraordinarily well-suited to each other. What, other than the above, do

>you feel makes the difference in communicating with " the one " ? Did it take

>you a very long time to develop trust and affection or did you have a sense

>of who she (the woman who was to become your wife) was almost immediately?

>Do you think that the necessity of unreservedly expressing your true

>thoughts would have hindered you in a face to face situation, or do you

>think that the two of you would have found each other, regardless? Either

>way, congratulations on finding your soul mate and much happiness always.

>

>Florie

>

 

_______________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

 

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at

http://profiles.msn.com.

[Guest guest]

>

> PS: I'll be bringing several friends over to use your swimming pool.

We'll

> all be hungry and probably will need a place to stay for a few days.

Also,

> I'm a little short this week, can you spare some dough 'till payday...and

> can I borrow your car to run a few errands?

>

 

Florie,

another good thing about electronic friends is that you don't have to have

them over. I'm sorry but the pool is dry, the beds are all taken, the car is

broke and so am I!!!

 

Jaylink

[Guest guest]

-

" jaylink " <jaylink

 

Tuesday, October 10, 2000 4:00 PM

Re: electronic friendship

 

 

> Florie,

> another good thing about electronic friends is that you don't have to have

> them over. I'm sorry but the pool is dry, the beds are all taken, the car

is

> broke and so am I!!!

>

> Jaylink

>

Maybe we'll both have better luck next (life) time!

[Guest guest]

Jaylink,

Very well put. What I'd like to know is may my spirit be friends with your

spirit? Hope so.

Ellie

(in New Jersey USA)

[Guest guest]

Kristian and Ray,

You both have made such good points. I have never felt so free in life as I

do here. I too have met some very nice people here on line. I have never been

able to be as open about my life as I have here. I have kept it all inside of

me and made myself sick over it, but you have all made me feel free to open

up and I feel so much better for it. I don't feel judged here. I want to

thank you all for that. Florie I'm still trudging on with the sleep machine.

Thanks for everything everyone.

Ellie

[Guest guest]

Jaylink,

To me the most important things in the world are my children and

grandchildren. I put them before all else. They are my life and the very air

I breathe. Money is not important to me. You can have wealth and be unhappy.

I want peace in the world. NO MORE FIGHTING. I want peace of mind for us all.

I don't want people to starve. I finally am realizing what life is about. Its

what's inside of a person, not what they look like. A man or woman can be the

most handsome or beautiful person in the world and still be hollow. After my

children and grandchildren come my friends and I'd like you to be one of

them. I do hope I've answered what you wanted to hear, because I do want to

be friends with your spirit.

Ellie

[Guest guest]

> Jaylink,

> Very well put. What I'd like to know is may my spirit be friends with your

> spirit? Hope so.

> Ellie

> (in New Jersey USA)

 

Ellie,

your wish is granted (he said, tapping his 15inch deluxe screen with his

magic wand).

However, (there always has to be an however to spoil life's serenity) there

is a price that I ask in return. When a spirit seeks another spirit to

communicate with, even within the confines of human language, the topic of

conversation must be important. I am constantly on a search for 'Truth' and

meaning in life and questioning life's priorities. I have ideas of my own

which I have gathered over the years but I am always interested in other

people's life experiences. So if you want to be my spirit friend will you

share with me what you believe to be life's priorities.

 

Jaylink

Ireland

[Guest guest]

Good day to you all

 

I have been reading through the " Electronic Friendship "

posts (until Wednesday's) and was wondering, do we need to

" ask for permission " to be someone's friend? Whether in

real life, or in this mystical " cyber-space " ? This topic

has haunted me through the past few days and much thought

has been processed in my excuse for a cranium...

 

I understand that it is polite on-line to ask, but, (((and,

again, my two cents))) doesn't " friendship " blossom as you

grow with and learn about the other person/people involved.

Sure, there are " acquaintances " that drift into and out of

our lives, that we only share VERY minimal information

with, that we can debate with, that we work with, ...

 

.... but as you get to " know " someone (their hobbies, their

habits, their likes, their dislikes, etc, etc, etc), you

grow and learn, and vibrate each others' energy to levels

of infatuation - not " in love " or sex or marriage

infatuation, but just plain respect-type-of-love. Like a

sibling kind-of-love... They just " become " your " friend "

through the adventures of happiness, tears and

mediocre-ness you have experienced together.

 

Any other opinions???

 

In peace,

 

S.

 

___________________________

http://clubs..au - Clubs

- Join a club or build your own!

[Guest guest]

Dear Sonya~

 

> I understand that it is polite on-line to ask, but, (((and,

> again, my two cents))) doesn't " friendship " blossom as you

> grow with and learn about the other person/people involved.

> Sure, there are " acquaintances " that drift into and out of

> our lives, that we only share VERY minimal information

> with, that we can debate with, that we work with, ...

>

>

I agree that " friendship " does or should blossom naturally. I find that I

do much better with people online. I'm really quite shy and easily put off

by others in person--at a party, I'm the one in the corner with the shy and

silly smile attempting to avoid everyone else. There's an illusion of

intimacy in this medium that makes it easier to be open and accepting.

 

I think that the discussion might well be a matter of semantics. Perhaps

(especially geographically), people's definitions of the word " friendship "

differ. To me, it simply means having positive feelings toward someone

you've had an interaction with, to others, it may mean something far

different and less approachable. For instance, I feel a true friendship

towards every person on this list who has gone out of their way to reach out

to me by responding to a post or join a discussion. We may never meet or

even know each other's real names. So what? I've benefited from each

interaction. I appreciate this and have good feelings toward each person

who has contributed to this process. In my opinion, this qualifies as

friendship. We might not be spending Thanksgiving together, but that's OK.

I'm a lousy cook, anyway.

 

Groucho Marx was once quoted as saying " I would never join a club that would

accept me as a member! " . Maybe some people are not secure enough to accept

that they deserve the good feelings that others have towards them. I think

that those of us who have felt like outsiders at one time or another are a

bit more open and ready to offer the cyber equivalent of " friendship " to

another, because we may have felt the sting of rejection at one time or

another and would not wish to inflict that on another person. If someone

does not wish to be my friend, aquaintence, or whatever, so be it. As a

wise woman recently suggested, just smile and consign them to the universe.

Thanks, Caroline!

 

So, Sonya, those are my afternoon ramblings on friendship, electronic or

otherwise. Thanks for asking a stimulating question.

 

Be well.

 

Your friend,

 

Florie