Guest guest Posted July 31, 2000 Report Share Posted July 31, 2000 Hi folks ... On another list I belong to there has been an energetic debate about money, charging, ethics thereof, whether one can/should take money for healing, etc. I'd be really interested to hear YOUR thoughts on this. It should be, surely, that it's fine to exchange our skills/talent/experience for money, even if the healing process is a holy one. Our clients can't provide themselves with the services we offer, and money is a convenient means of a fair exchange. It's just symbolic, a usefuly portable way of substituting other talents/skills/expertise for what we are offering. Money is not, of itself, dirty, polluting, evil, corrrupting etc. It's our beliefs about it and our use of it that make it so, if at all. Or is it? How do you all handle the paradox of taking money for what the client is doing? (if you believe that all we do is to help/encourage/enable clients to heal themselves) with gratitude Arabella Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2000 Report Share Posted July 31, 2000 Hi Arabella, I think your question is a very good one, that I think many people have difficulty with. Many people get caught up in a " lack mentality " that not only hurts themselves, but those they love as well. Because they don't think they deserve to be prosperous, either consciously or subconsciously, they constantly go about proving themselves " right " , even if it means hurting themselves or others in the process. And even it means doing the opposite of what they say they really want. If we really take a look at the messages we're bombarded with every day we'll see that most of the media has a tendency to air the negative news. We don't hear about how Bill Gates gives hundreds of millions of dollars a year to charity, we here about his legal issues. We don't hear about how the internet is a wonderful place to exchange information and ideas, and that people from all over the world can discuss anything they want...instead we hear about online privacy issues, security, etc. And it's not the medias fault, it's our own. If collectively we weren't watching the negative stuff they show, they wouldn't produce it. Instead they'd find whatever it is people want to watch and give it to us. A lot of TV shows and movies are the same way. People with money are portrayed as bad or getting their money in some unethical way. Titanic is a perfect example. The guy (can you remember his name? ) ) Kate is supposed to marry is rich and well... corrupt. While Leonardo is poor but dies for his love (sniffle). There's a reason this movie was so popular, and it's not because the acting was superb, though it definitely was. There are many movies out there that have wonderful acting that fail. The reason this movie made such a big splash (couldn't resist) is because of the concept behind it. I'll bet if you were able to poll the people coming out of the theater 97 out of 100 would've said they could identify with certain characters in the movie, and... they loved it. Is it any wonder people feel guilty about asking a fair price for their services when they feel it's a bad thing to actually want it. Please don't confuse this with greed because they're two entirely different animals. >It should be, surely, that it's fine to exchange >our skills/talent/experience for money, even if the >healing process is a holy one. We all deserve to be happy, healthy, and prosperous. We all also deserve to ask for what we're worth. Money has everything to do with being holy. God/Universe (or whatever name you'd like to insert here ) ) wants good things for us all and gives them to us when we ask. It's up to us to decide what we choose to do with that power...good or bad. >Our clients can't provide themselves with the services we offer, and money >is a convenient means of a fair exchange. It's just symbolic, a usefuly >portable way of substituting other talents/skills/expertise for what we >are offering. Money is not, of itself, dirty, polluting, evil, corrrupting >etc. It's our beliefs about it and our use of it that make it so, if at all. > >Or is it? Money just is, it's neutral. It's the action of putting that money towards something that's good or bad. Warmly, Marc AwesomeHealth: -Powerful ideas to help make your mind even sharper, & push your spiritual, relationship, physical, & career health to the next level. A whole approach. http://www.awesomehealth.com/tr/a.cgi?sig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2000 Report Share Posted August 1, 2000 An interesting question, but not a difficult one. In a perfect world, healers would be respected and honored. As a sign of that respect, our mundane needs would be provided for and we could concentrate on healing full-time. Unfortunately, we don't live in that world, so most of us still have to deal with the concept of eating every day. (talk about addictions) As such, only those of us who are indepentantly wealthy are likely to be able to go into healing without worrying about money. With respect, I think the question about our taking money for what our clients do for themselves is a pseudo-paradox. What we are taking money for is teaching them how to do it and, in many cases, establishing an environment where they CAN do it. To me, the operative question is, " Where they getting better on thier own before they came to you? " If so, you might need to give some thought to the ethical situation, but if they were not able to heal on their own, then you're justified in charging whatever the traffic will bear. Since few clients will come to you if they're healing just fine on their own, I think we're fairly safe on this one. Many therapists will offer a sliding payment scale dependant on the client's ability to pay. But, in those cases where I do that, I try to remind myself that it's something I'm doing for myself, not a favor to the client. The point is that we provide a service. Whether you success comes from heavy manipulation with obvious results or you just happen to provide your client with an insight that allows them to heal themselves without further help, you're still providing a service that they were unable to provide for themselves. >Arabella McIntyre-Brown <abs > > > Re: money >Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:43:58 +0100 > >Hi folks ... > >On another list I belong to there has been an energetic debate about >money, charging, ethics thereof, whether one can/should take money for >healing, etc. > >I'd be really interested to hear YOUR thoughts on this. > >It should be, surely, that it's fine to exchange our >skills/talent/experience for money, even if the healing process is a >holy one. Our clients can't provide themselves with the services we >offer, and money is a convenient means of a fair exchange. It's just >symbolic, a usefuly portable way of substituting other >talents/skills/expertise for what we are offering. Money is not, of >itself, dirty, polluting, evil, corrrupting etc. It's our beliefs about >it and our use of it that make it so, if at all. > >Or is it? > >How do you all handle the paradox of taking money for what the client is >doing? (if you believe that all we do is to help/encourage/enable >clients to heal themselves) > >with gratitude > >Arabella > ______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2000 Report Share Posted August 1, 2000 Hi Arabella, Yes, money is merely an exchange of energy. A valuable and preferred one. However, if someone needed a massage and couldn't afford it, but had a lovely painting or needlepoint to trade, I'd trade fairly. The energy exchange is needed to show the Universe that we understand accepting energy for energy. Otherwise the Universe may consider us literal doormats and we will further be treated that way. Energy is also negotiable. If someone can't afford what my standard hour charge is, I'll discount it. It's our view of ourselves. We have to respect ourselves and what we do enough to know we can't give our services away for nothing. Take care, Karen Sellars Arabella McIntyre-Brown wrote: > Hi folks ... > > On another list I belong to there has been an energetic debate about > money, charging, ethics thereof, whether one can/should take money for > healing, etc. > > I'd be really interested to hear YOUR thoughts on this. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2000 Report Share Posted August 3, 2000 Hmm... I wanted to wait until a few responses came through before I made mine. I have certainly " heard it all " when it comes to this argument, over the years. This is a bit long, but feel free to pass it along, Abs. I would like to couch what I am about to say with the disclaimer that I appreciate the feelings of those whose feelings are genuinely altruistic regarding healing work, and honor them if they are living that sort of life. Now... my first comment on the subject of money is the same as what has already been said. Money is a form of energy, and should not be seen as any more significant than barter or trade. For some reason a lot of people have issues about " filthy lucre " ; it is not money, but the love of money, that is the root of all evil. (Check your scriptures, Bible thumpers... I'm a preacher's daughter, I remember). That said... we live in a real world, with real groceries and rents and such. While it would be lovely to be able to educate ourselves, house and feed ourselves, and then provide a space where we can offer free sessions for everyone who passes by, there is a giant lack of reality in that concept, except for the lucky few who are either born rich, or married into prosperity. Since I did neither, and I have given up my " real " (and might I say lucrative) job as a nurse to teach, write and practice energy work, I have laid a certain expectation on the universe that I will be provided for because of that. It's not totally happening yet, but I guarantee you, when it does, money will be involved somewhere <LOL> In indiginous society, there is not a great need for money, and the shaman/priest and medicine man are taken care of by the collective so that they can keep their energies to their duties. In a way, that is also how people who wear the cloth (priests, nuns, etc) manage; they take a vow of poverty, and the church takes care of them... ah... there is an exchange there, isn't there? It isn't just not taking money, it's the fact that *somebody* *somewhere* is paying for the service. When I was a girl, my parents were home missionaries, and we lived on the sufferance of the local community, in donated housing, wearing hand-me-downs and eating the eggs, meat and vegetables from the church members. It was not a bad life, but we paid for it by helping communities build their churches, and when they were done, moving on. Often my father had to supplement us by working as a glazer, and we moved every three years, generally. Somebody pays... If my client does not pay for my service, then I am paying for it myself by giving it away, by paying for my rent, linens, electricity, business cards, flyers, gasoline, time, my table, my music, my education, etc., etc. If I was rich, as I said before, I might consider it... but then again, I might not, and here's why: Mikao Usui. Remember the old Reiki tale, about how Usui started his clinic because he felt that people who wanted healing needed to make a commitment to their healing? He gave away his gifts to people in the street, who by taking it for granted abused his generosity. Ask your friendly neighborhood therapist. Even if there is no physical money exchanged, a contract must be made for some sort of commitment to change in order for a person to respect and honor the process and the contribution of energy from the healer. Money is not only a convenient means of fair exchange, it is the only one that my mechanic, grocer and doctor will accept. No one would think about asking someone to fix their car, give them a bill of goods, or do surgery for free. Yet that is what people ask those of us in the complementary health field to do, in spite of our education, commitment and effort. It's really too shabby of people to continue to believe it is unethical to charge for facilitating healing. I challenge people who are still carrying the belief that money is dirty to search out the roots of that limiting belief inside themselves and stop using it to limit and harm others. I had to do it myself, before I felt that I deserved prosperity and others did, too. There is a great gap between the prosperity derived from the universe and the bounty derived from a person's greed. Arabella McIntyre-Brown wrote: > Hi folks ... > > On another list I belong to there has been an energetic debate about money, > charging, ethics thereof, whether one can/should take money for healing, etc. > > I'd be really interested to hear YOUR thoughts on this. > > It should be, surely, that it's fine to exchange our > skills/talent/experience for money, even if the healing process is a holy one. > Our clients can't provide themselves with the services we > offer, and money is a convenient means of a fair exchange. It's just symbolic, > a usefuly portable way of substituting other talents/skills/expertise for what > we are offering. Money is not, of itself, dirty, polluting, evil, corrrupting > etc. It's our beliefs about > it and our use of it that make it so, if at all. > > Or is it? > > How do you all handle the paradox of taking money for what the client is > doing? (if you believe that all we do is to help/encourage/enable clients to > heal themselves) > > with gratitude > > Arabella -- Blessings, Crow " Look for Rainbows in the Darkness " -- --- Rev. Caroline Gutierrez Abreu, BS, RN, CHTP/I, CRMT, CH AIM: CaroCrow http://www.geocities.com/nrgbalance " We see things not as they are but as we are. " The Talmud " In the end, don't you think a prophet is more important than a politician? " Cat Stevens " We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. " Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2000 Report Share Posted August 4, 2000 thanks, Crow .... wise words. I will have to root out my 'fear of scarcity' beliefs and install some stronger self-valuing beliefs instead. I KNOW what you say is true, but I rather think I don't FEEL it to be so in my case ........ Arabella xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2000 Report Share Posted August 4, 2000 Abs: I don't know if it is a fear of scarcity in some people, or some sort of unnecessary leftover from religious upbringing, etc. Many of us have a history with the church that supports the idea that healing work should be an altruistic activity, not only a service but a duty. That is one of the reasons that nurses and teachers, two of the oldest professions to evolve from the convents, are still struggling with identity, boundaries and rights. Here in my state nurses have had to go on strike to prevent mandatory overtime... imagine. Forcing you to work, no matter how long you have worked, no matter how tired you are, because they " need " you... not considering, that if you make an error, you may never work again, there or anywhere else! Even financial compensation is not enough for those sorts of risks, although the typical pressure placed on nurses to comply is much more fundamental and emotional. Your supervisors know how to push your codependency buttons. And that is one reason I don't want complementary therapies to marry into the allopathic system; they eat their own young and/or work them to death in there. Yet, by staying apart, out in the " wilds " outside the system, we are still prey to problems with zoning restrictions, religious accusations, turf wars, and even occasionally with the vice squad. That is not to mention the skeptics and the insurance companies ;-) It is hard to be a professional, and not walk in step. But to paraphrase, we hear a different beat; hopefully it is a heartbeat... and what we do, we do in love. But not for free. Because no one should have to starve for love <LOL> Blessings, Crow " Look for Rainbows in the Darkness " Arabella McIntyre-Brown wrote: > thanks, Crow .... wise words. I will have to root out my 'fear of > scarcity' beliefs and install some stronger self-valuing beliefs > instead. I KNOW what you say is true, but I rather think I don't FEEL it > to be so in my case ........ > > Arabella > > xx > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2000 Report Share Posted August 5, 2000 On the topic of money... a favourite of mine, being both practioner and teacher in the *healing* field... and also having to feed a family.... a friend sent this to me from another list..... My views on the toic... money is another form of barter... and if someone wants to feed my family, pay my bills or my rent instead of paying me... that's fine... but most settle for paying me, or giving me a swop of equil value/time etc... But back to what was sent to me... Everything that you are experiencing you are attracting unto you. If you could take money out of the equation, if you could no longer worry about money but just do what you do because it is fun to do it--do what you do because you like doing it--money would overwhelm you! When you understand that there is nothing outside of you that is making the difference...Then it doesn't matter how life is toughing you, you are having what you are wanting from it. Because of this basic knowing of the Laws, you can just say: Everything always turns out right for me---and then look for the evidence in you experience to prove that. Abraham--G 10/7/90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2000 Report Share Posted August 14, 2000 On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, Caroline Abreu wrote: > > That said... we live in a real world, with real groceries and rents and such. > While it would be lovely to be able to educate ourselves, house and feed > ourselves, and then provide a space where we can offer free sessions for > everyone who passes by, there is a giant lack of reality in that concept I too, seem to have a problem with money. My instinct is always to help, especially animals. I'd never succeed financially as a veterinarian either. LOL My present situation of living precariously hand to mouth is a testament to this. , except > for the lucky few who are either born rich, or married into > prosperity. Since I did neither, and I have given up my " real " (and > might I say lucrative) job as a nurse to teach, write and practice > energy work, I have laid a certain expectation on the universe that I > will be provided for because of that. It's not totally happening yet, > but I guarantee you, when it does, money will be involved somewhere > <LOL> > I've been learning much about the importance of having the correct --I want to say attitude-- behind the expectation. 10-15 years ago I had had for the second time in my life built a fortune in real estate, only to lose, & walk away from most of it. None of my peers had money, and I somehow had this sense of vague discomfort in being the " have " among the " have nots. " I always felt like I had to be the one to help, help & help some more. Of course no one valued this and certainly were not there for me. Talk about self sabotage! I now understand why the rich hang around with the rich. > In indiginous society, there is not a great need for money, and the > shaman/priest and medicine man are taken care of by the collective so > that they can keep their energies to their duties. In a way, that is > also how people who wear the cloth (priests, nuns, etc) manage; they > take a vow of poverty, and the church takes care of them... ah... > there is an exchange there, isn't there? It isn't just not taking > money, it's the fact that *somebody* *somewhere* is paying for the > service. The system of tithing made certain of that. It is good in that it insures that the clergy is freed to pursue their work. > Remember the old Reiki tale, about how Usui started his clinic because > he felt that people who wanted healing needed to make a commitment to > their healing? He gave away his gifts to people in the street, who by > taking it for granted abused his generosity. I had a very nice business doing acrylic nail sculpting along with my properties. I had a number of low income tenants to whom I offered to teach this art. I taught a fair number of them, even gave materials to start with, my old brushes, extra powders & supplies. Not ONE of those girls ever followed through. Any of them could have begun on a shoestring, out of their apartments (with my blessing) and gotten out of the ghetto & never looked back. 'nuff said. I had to do it > myself, before I felt that I deserved prosperity and others did, too. > There is a great gap between the prosperity derived from the universe > and the bounty derived from a person's greed. > Until I can change that attitude of being deserving of prosperity it is not going to matter how many fortunes I can build, I'll always somehow mess things up. The sad, sad part is that so many people who could benefit from alternative modalities simply cannot afford them. Insurance will not pay, and in some ways do alternative practitioners really want to get involved with insurance and its problems? I wish I had some answers. Stef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2000 Report Share Posted August 25, 2000 TechMage wrote: > I too, seem to have a problem with money. My instinct is always to help, > especially animals. I'd never succeed financially as a veterinarian either. > LOL My present situation of living precariously hand to mouth is a > testament to this. > You know, money is a strange thing. In my experience, I have never had an enormous amount of it, but I am seldom starving for it unless I start worrying about it. Most of the time I have enough to get by. So, I can't say I have a problem with money. More like a problem with worry (which is a trust issue), or a problem with feeling worthy of prosperity (which is a self esteem issue). > I've been learning much about the importance of having the correct --I want to > say attitude-- behind the expectation. 10-15 years ago I had had for the > second time in my life built a fortune in real estate, only to lose, & walk > away from most of it. None of my peers had money, and I > somehow had this sense of vague discomfort in being the " have " among the " have > nots. " I always felt like I had to be the one to help, help & help some more. > Of course no one valued this and certainly were not there for me. > Talk about self sabotage! > I now understand why the rich hang around with the rich. > The two edged sword... who do you want to identify with, in the long run? Perhaps we are caught in a double bind, here. We want to be altruistic and holy and giving and kind, but we also want to be prosperous. Nothing wrong with that... apparently folks like Oprah and Deepak Chopra can do it, why not us? Are we so married to our middle class protestant work ethic that we have become reverse snobs... does having money equal being dastardly in our eyes? Do we see everyone with a full wallet as a Donald Trump, a Bill Gates? Or are the sour grapes just a way of masking jealousy? ;-) I am reminded of those hair coloring commercials, where the full lipped brunette pouts, " Don't hate me because I'm beautiful " ... > > also how people who wear the cloth (priests, nuns, etc) manage; they > > take a vow of poverty, and the church takes care of them... ah... > > there is an exchange there, isn't there? It isn't just not taking > > money, it's the fact that *somebody* *somewhere* is paying for the > > service. > > The system of tithing made certain of that. It is good in that it insures that > the clergy is freed to pursue their work. Amazing, though, how the general attitude is, that they are working for nothing. > I had a very nice business doing acrylic nail sculpting along with my > properties. I had a number of low income tenants to whom I offered to teach > this art. I taught a fair number of them, even gave materials to start with, > my old brushes, extra powders & supplies. Not ONE of those > girls ever followed through. Any of them could have begun on a shoestring, out > of their apartments (with my blessing) and gotten out of the ghetto & never > looked back. 'nuff said. You can lead a horse to water.... I heard someone say once that the only true handicaps are the ones we create ourselves. When I watch differently abled people doing amazing things through effort, determination, will and faith, I can see that this is basically true. Of course there are some natural limitations for all of us (reality checks) but I think that we normally set our limits far too low, not only from fear of failure, but from fear of success... after all, if you succeed at what you previously thought impossible, hey, you have to keep upping the ante on yourself, eh? Much easier to lay in the mud and wallow <LOL> > The sad, sad part is that so many people who could benefit from alternative > modalities simply cannot afford them. Insurance will not pay, and in some ways > do alternative practitioners really want to get involved with insurance and > its problems? > > I wish I had some answers. As do we all, Stef. I read an article in the Boston Globe last weekend about a big veterinary hospital in the metro area, and how this is a problem for animal care as well. Since the government sees pets as a luxury unless we are using them as chattels (i.e., race horses, farm stock, etc.) veterinary care is all out of pocket. No insurance coverage, no tax deductions, no dependant classification. All we do for our beloved pets is straight from our hearts and pockets. Perhaps one answer for people who cannot afford complementary care (until the system catches up with us) is to create some sort of foundation that defrays costs for legitimately needy people. That way, the practitioners can stay in business, and the clients get the care they need. It would require fundraising and public awareness, a lot of sweat and hopefully some endowments and such. But it could be done. I saw two women on a talk program the other day who have created such a foundation for women who cannot afford breast cancer care because they have no insurance and they felt no one should have to make the choice of taking care of their children or their health. Just like no one should have to put their dog to sleep because they cannot afford to have his fractured leg set. -- Blessings, Crow " Look for Rainbows in the Darkness " -- --- Rev. Caroline Gutierrez Abreu, BS, RN, CHTP/I, CRMT, CH AIM: CaroCrow http://www.geocities.com/nrgbalance " We see things not as they are but as we are. " The Talmud " In the end, don't you think a prophet is more important than a politician? " Cat Stevens " We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. " Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2000 Report Share Posted August 26, 2000 Crow, you made some excellent points here. There is much reform needed. http://community.webtv.net/Talks-withtrees/PrayerChain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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