Rebirthing

May 8, 2000

Hello everybody,

I would like to know what people have experimented with the " Rebirthing "

technique.

Actually i have been offered to asist to one of these seminars, but i get

two diferent opinions: 1) it works just great, just follow the rules

2) you will get nuts, many people have, and they don't know it until they're

really gone wazoo. (that is because everybody goes making it in the same

room and everybody's traumas get mixed with everybody else's ones, at the

energetic level).

Personally i am atracted to it, and the people i've met that have done it

look really well and armonious, but that other opinion has me pretty

concerned. Any formed opinion or information about it?

Thans for your help.

Alain Gougeon

May 8, 2000

In a message dated 5/8/00 9:21:04 AM Central Daylight Time,

agougeon writes:

<< Any formed opinion or information about it? >>

You asked for it - so here you go! <g> Any technique that involves guided

'regression' - will be problematical for people with instances of abuse in

their lives. Esp. if the abuse was in childhood. If the person was sexually

abused as a child - the degree of trauma increases expotentially. And there's

the catch. Statistics tell us that up to 25% or more - of all females were

sexually abused (to some degree) as children. The rate is almost as high for

males. Many people sexually abused as children - have no conscious memory of

it. So even if asked beforehand if that is an issue - they cannot answer

truthfully.

I do not recommend Re-birthing - or any other 'directed' regression method -

for people who were abused as children. Particularly if the abuse was sexual

abuse. This is from personal experience. Re-birthing may be ok for people

with the 'average' range of neurosis, childhood issues and disappointments.

But those who experienced abuse - have much more to process than the average

person. And that processing - needs to be done at the individual's own

timing. Which varies greatly - there is no one 'right' time schedule involved

in processing trauma.

The same caution would also apply to war veterans, former prisoners of war,

etc.

In some cases - the participant may re-expereince the full emotional and

physical impact of their abuse. That is - experience the same terror and

panic as the 3 year old who not only had enormous trauma - but also no idea

why. We are talking total regression here. If there were numerous instances

of abuse - that trauma reaction can be multiplied times - whatever.

Most adults are not ready to handle that - all at once. Many people in

therapy - working with abuse issues gradually - find they need Zoloft or

another SSRI for the duration of the therapy. Even as adults working through

it - the overwhelming feelings of pain,etc - are just too much for most

people. Actually the most common body-feeling is - overwhelming and

paralyzing Shame. Which can and does interfere with everyday life functioning.

Re-birthing really is a trial by fire. And there are many other, more gradual

ways to achieve the same goals. The most common - and the most stabilizing

for any individual regardless of history - is vipassana (insight) meditation.

And that can get really intense - but it is at the total discretion of the

meditator.

Re-birthing is usually very dramatic. And many presenters and participants -

feel they haven't gotten their money's worth without some serious Drama. But

it can have serious side-effects for those with hidden psychological trauma.

I would say - proceed with caution. Just 'cause some people are doing it -

does not necessarily mean it is a good thing. Or at least - not the best

solution for all people. That's my opinion -

Best Regards!

diana

May 8, 2000

In a message dated 05/08/2000 3:00:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

Xena10000 writes:

<< Any technique that involves guided

'regression' - will be problematical for people with instances of abuse in

their lives. >>

Dear Diana & Reiki friends,

Your response was filled with insight! Indeed, anyone with post-traumatic

stress would not do well with rebirthing. The shamanic technique that they

call soul retrieval is similar, is it not? I see repression as one of God's

marvelous tools that allow people of all ages to go forward after life has

been too traumatic. (Only recently have I recalled nearly all of my many

serious childhood abuse issues: I was abused from the age of 3 through 7.)

When we are ready, we remember. I truly recommend gentler, (less violent),

forms of healing and remembering such as Reiki, therapy, prayer.

In God's love,

Debbie B.

May 9, 2000

I am in full agreement with Diana's statement that Rebirthing is a lot like a

" trial by fire " ... it, and other Breathwork techniques, work on that subtle soup

of the subconscious like a dredge, stirring up the silt that has settled from

long buried incidents and issues.

For people who have no external support, this can be a shock. I would first

advise that the participants have some support system, hopefully a trusted

counselor to process with afterwards. It's not something you can do and just get

up and go home and have tea.

I have experienced Breathwork in a group once, and was amazed that although I

did not expect anything, and in fact did not feel I had anything to " work on " at

the time, I had an amazing vision and cleared some deep grief I had not even

thought was still there from a miscarriage. It was not pretty, mind you; I wept

until I looked like a peeled beet, and the dear friend of mine who was hosting

the session, and had never seen me that way before, had some pretty strong

reactions himself, including refusing to ever have anything else to do with

Breathwork. In retrospect, I think that I needed the catharsis because I had not

allowed myself to grieve when it happened; but my friend had always seen me in

control, and was disturbed by my release.

So if you're going to do this, my second advice is to avoid doing it with anyone

you care deeply about. That may sound strange, but I think that there is a line

between what your friends can do for you, and that line stops at being truly

unconditional and therapeutic sometimes. Your friends and family can be like

mother bears with you and that is not always what you need when you are at the

point of release. In fact, it may cause you to repress it again so that you

don't " hurt " them with it.

Some people do like drama, and it can be dramatic. Others can get very weirded

out by it, especially if their self-image is intrinsically tied to their

self-control. For them, I would suggest using easier methods to move hidden

traumas, such as hypnotherapy or one of the trauma release techniques we have

been discussing lately, like EFT or TAT.

In the same way, I try to guide my clients to choose methods of energy work that

suit them; not everyone needs the primitive catharsis of work like shamanic

healing, and would instead profit from the quiet work of Reiki. And vice versa.

Go with what resonates, Alain; I sense that you are questioning the work, so it

may not be what you would choose for yourself. That does not make it invalid,

just a poor fit for you.

Really enjoyed your angle, Diana. Thanks for bringing in the aspect of the

person who might not have memories of abuse.

Blessings,

Crow

" Look for Rainbows in the Darkness "

---

Rev. Caroline Gutierrez Abreu, BS, RN, CHTP/I, CRMT, CH

AIM: CaroCrow

http://www.geocities.com/nrgbalance

" We see things not as they are but as we are. " The Talmud

May 9, 2000

Diana eloquently wrote:

>I do not recommend Re-birthing - or any other 'directed' regression method -

>for people who were abused as children. Particularly if the abuse was sexual

>abuse. This is from personal experience. Re-birthing may be ok for people

>with the 'average' range of neurosis, childhood issues and disappointments.

>But those who experienced abuse - have much more to process than the average

>person. And that processing - needs to be done at the individual's own

>timing. Which varies greatly - there is no one 'right' time schedule involved

>in processing trauma.

Perhaps I was just lucky in my experience. I had 10 sessions with a

rebirther-in-training, and it was intense but not overwhelming. I do have a

multiple vector abuse history. I was not aware of some major pieces at the time

I did the sessions. My rebirther was told by her supervisors to get me to name

what I was working on. I refused to name what I could not identify, and insisted

that my intuition said I was on track.

>In some cases - the participant may re-expereince the full emotional and

>physical impact of their abuse. That is - experience the same terror and

>panic as the 3 year old who not only had enormous trauma - but also no idea

>why. We are talking total regression here. If there were numerous instances

>of abuse - that trauma reaction can be multiplied times - whatever.

I agree, and I wonder if Rebirthers and some other breathworkers are adequately

trained.

>Most adults are not ready to handle that - all at once. Many people in

>therapy - working with abuse issues gradually - find they need Zoloft or

>another SSRI for the duration of the therapy.

Drugs are for recreation, in my opinion. There are appropriate therapeutic

technologies available.

>Re-birthing really is a trial by fire. And there are many other, more gradual

>ways to achieve the same goals. The most common - and the most stabilizing

>for any individual regardless of history - is vipassana (insight) meditation.

>And that can get really intense - but it is at the total discretion of the

>meditator.

This is the way I would hope all breathwork would be facilitated.

>Re-birthing is usually very dramatic. And many presenters and participants -

>feel they haven't gotten their money's worth without some serious Drama. But

>it can have serious side-effects for those with hidden psychological trauma.

The addiction to Drama has serious consequences for our whole culture.

>I would say - proceed with caution.

Yes. A good point, all therapies should be approached with a degree of caution.

Thanks, Dan

Daniel Schmidt

Bodywork and Somatics

501 Hillsborough Road

Carrboro, NC 27510

" Let the beauty we love be what we do "

--Rumi

May 10, 2000

Is this the same as ROLFING?

http://community.webtv.net/Talks-withtrees/PrayerChain

May 10, 2000

no. rolfing is bodywork using myofascial release to balance structure and

restore range of motion and learn how to use movement more

efficiently...hellerwork takes a step further by also integrating the

awareness and release of emotional holding patterns as well.

-

<Talks-withtrees

Tuesday, May 09, 2000 4:00 PM

Re: Rebirthing

Is this the same as ROLFING?

http://community.webtv.net/Talks-withtrees/PrayerChain

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May 10, 2000

No. Rebirthing and Rolfing are not the same thing.

Rebirthing is regression and reenacting the birthing

process.

--- Talks-withtrees wrote:

> Is this the same as ROLFING?

Send instant messages & get email alerts with Messenger.

http://im./

May 10, 2000

No. Rebirthing and Rolfing are not the same thing.

Rebirthing is regression and reenacting the birthing

process.

--- Talks-withtrees wrote:

> Is this the same as ROLFING?

Send instant messages & get email alerts with Messenger.

http://im./

May 11, 2000

In a message dated 5/11/00 2:45:02 PM Central Daylight Time,

agougeon writes:

<< I do because i feel like i am not acknowledging my feelings, controling my

thoughts, not letting things happen, etc... >>

Hi Alain! It's good that you are engaging in self-examination! Not quite sure

what you are asking - but I will try to answer. From my perspective -

For one thing - it is impossible to 'control' thoughts. That is one big

problem most Westerners make. Aside fomr having a difficult childhood - i am

studying Tibetan Buddhism. A good deal of that (aside from the obvious

spiritual aspects) - is learning an working with inner topography of the

mind. As Chogyam Trungpa put it " Meditation is making friends with yourself " .

Trungpa also said " To control your horse - give it a bigger pasture. "

Ever try not to think of a yellow elephant? The more you try 'not' to think

of it - the more you think of it. One of the paradoxical things about

consciousness. On the other hand - if what you are looking for is to know

yourself better and find some inner peace - then meditation (as a spiritual

path) is an excellent choice.

When Tibetans say 'meditation' - they are not referring to a weekend workshop

to attend - and to return home from going - " Wow! That was cool! " And I am

using meditation in the same context. I mean - rigorous (yet very

Compassionate) self-examination as a way of life.

Of course - the other problem is that when we try to 'know' ourselves - we

lie to ourselves. Making the whole thing very difficult. The thing I like

about meditation - is that it is gentle yet effective. Well - relatively

gentle anyway <g> Depending on the method of meditation.

Therefore - if meditation appeals to you - you might want to check out

Vipassana (Insight) meditation. Through Vipassana - you will get to know

yourself. Eventually - every hidden thought, hidden emotion, hidden

body-memory - will surface. This may take a few years. But it will happen as

YOU are ready to handle it.

Vipassana is not a strictly a Buddhist meditation - it is more of a

technique. Therefore you need not be Buddhist to use it. Because you are

focusing on the breath - and there are no specific prayers or anything else.

Vipassana is ideal for persons of any religion. A good book is " The Art of

Living:Vipassana Meditation as taught by Goenka " , written by William Hart.

But this is not child's play. You must be serious - and have the Intent to

know yourself better. It sounds paradoxical - but once you know yourself

better - you will find the strength to forgive youself for your

short-comings. At which point Compassion - for self and others - naturally

arises. But this is not a path for weaklings. Seeing oneself as we REALLY are

- is shocking to say the least.

But if you persevere - you will have no worries about 'controlling' intrusive

thoughts, memories, controlling events, guilt, etc. All of these issues will

be resolved. And you will be the one doing the resolving - at your own pace.

It is tremendously empowering to realize that it is oneself that has the

problems - and the solutions.

Re-Birthing is one of many activities that claims to offer the results of

years of self-knowledge and Compassion - in one weekend. Or one session From

my own experience - there is no substitute for slow and steady self work. It

is tempting to think of just 'dynamiting' the whole mess out - but it does

not work that way.

You may find that the more upsetting problems just go 'underground' with some

of these methods - making it harder to locate them and eradicate them. Since

the problem remains on a deep level - people tend to become dependent on the

facilitator. In essence - they are letting to facilitator do their personal

work - for them. Some facilitators (of whatever method) encourage this type

of dependency - some don't.

Either way - the best thing is to do your own personal development work. Take

charge of your own life and own consciousness. And the only way to do that -

is to know yourself. Still the old, unglamorous advice. And it still works

<g> From my own experience. The mileage of others will vary -

Best

diana

May 11, 2000

Hi everybody.

Thanks everybody for the input on rebirthing, and in particular Diana and

Caro. I found your posts very thoughtful.

Yep, i guess that one should be prepared for what could show up. Now, how do

you do that?

I was thinking about Diana's and Caro's mails while i was having lunch.

Considering the circunstances of my birth (my mother made my father drive

300 Kms - no highway at that time- to get to her hometown, when they

arrived, she had break waters a long time ago, and the nun that attended

her, tells her she's not pregnant, that there's nothing! Besides that i was

only 7,5 months and had to pass a certain time alone) and childhood, i

probably hold a lot, and yes, as Caro pointed out, i do look at Rebirthing

in a kind of negative way.

The thing is that i want to do something about all this stuff i am holding,

and i have tried many things already, but i am so good at controling my

thoughts (or rather at clipping some of them), that i am led to look, now,

for stuff where i could indeed get out of control. Rebirthing seems to hold

that posibility (promise?).

Now, do i really want to release control?????

I do and i don't....

I do because i feel like i am not acknowledging my feelings, controling my

thoughts, not letting things happen, etc...

I don't because i don't know the dimension of that rock that's going to fall

on me... But it's there anyway, waiting its time, isn't it?

Any further thoughts welcome.

Alain

May 12, 2000

Alain:

Most of us do not know the dimensions of the rock, but that does not mean that

we have to anticipate it falling upon us. Many times it is the dread rather than

the actual issue that is the problem.

Rather than controlling your thoughts by reining them in, you might try to cut

them loose and see where they go. The power in thought is in the energy we

invest in them. The harder we try to supress or deny them, the more energy we

feed them (i.e., Diana's elephant analogy)

What I have been learning from this TAT thing I am doing is that if a thought

rises, I have the ability to examine it objectively if I choose. I can

experience the emotions without being lost in them. And I can drain the " charge "

out of the trauma by exposing it and accepting it (yes, it happened, and I am

all right now).

Most people do not understand that we seek the cause of our issues not to find

someone or something to blame, but to understand why we reacted in the way we

did so that we can do something different now. This follows for phobias,

allergies, and all sorts of diseases and disorders. The ultimate control is in

releasing control; this is not the same as " losing control " .

Here is a quote for you from my daily sutras:

" There is no freedom at all without surrender, and when I surrender I get

infinite freedom. The greater my surrender is, the greater my freedom, that much

the load is taken off of me. "

-- Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

The birth experience is a crucial event in our lives because it represents one

of our first encounters in this physical life with loss of control, with the

power of change. Whether we want to be born or not, we will be born. Like all

change, it is inevitable. But we do not have to relive it to understand that; we

experience change constantly, and every change is a microcosmic hologram of all

the changes that exist everywhere. So work on your resistance to change and you

may find that many of your charged issues will stop pushing your buttons. Reach

up and grasp the rock; climbing on top of it may bring you to a place of new

perspective and peace.

Blessings,

Crow

" Look for Rainbows in the Darkness "

Alain Gougeon wrote:

>

> The thing is that i want to do something about all this stuff i am holding,

> and i have tried many things already, but i am so good at controling my

> thoughts (or rather at clipping some of them), that i am led to look, now,

> for stuff where i could indeed get out of control. Rebirthing seems to hold

> that posibility (promise?).

>

> Now, do i really want to release control?????

>

> I do and i don't....

>

> I do because i feel like i am not acknowledging my feelings, controling my

> thoughts, not letting things happen, etc...

>

> I don't because i don't know the dimension of that rock that's going to fall

> on me... But it's there anyway, waiting its time, isn't it?

>

May 12, 2000

Diana,

you sound like the voice of wisdom. Studying this tibetan stuff was a good

idea ;-)

I am acquainted with meditation, but i lack so much of discipline, and i am

so " aries " that i don't have much patience and always want to jump to

conclusions. Anyway, i know you are right; considering it well, i think that

way too (well, i think many ways, that's the problem too...)

I had heard of Vipasana before, and was atracted to it, but the books i had

find always mentionned that it had to be teached personnaly and that it

could not be learned from the book itself, so i never happened to buy the

books. And there are no Vipassana Seminars any near, so...

Is this book you are recomending diferent? Would it allow the reader to

begin to use the technique??

Regarding the control of thought... We might not control it,that's right,

but we're filled with programations, of our own or frm others that we have

let in, and they do work pretty well. So there can be patterns in here that

lead and guide our thought, ¿no? So i might not contorl my thoughts but

these are pre-programmed. That's the control, no?

I understand that through meditation we happen to actually take conscience

of what we are in fact thinking, and conscience helps to understand and/or

get rid if the undesirable. I'd be glad to hear more of how you see this

process.

Have a nice day.

Alain

" Know Yourself "

" I only know I know nothing "

Eeeekkkk!

-----Mensaje original-----

De:

Enviado el: Viernes, 12 de Mayo de 2000 06:00 a.m.

Para:

Asunto: Digest Number 261

Message: 5

Thu, 11 May 2000 18:18:51 EDT

Xena10000

Re: RE: Rebirthing

In a message dated 5/11/00 2:45:02 PM Central Daylight Time,

agougeon writes:

<< I do because i feel like i am not acknowledging my feelings, controling

my

thoughts, not letting things happen, etc... >>

Hi Alain! It's good that you are engaging in self-examination! Not quite

sure

what you are asking - but I will try to answer. From my perspective -

For one thing - it is impossible to 'control' thoughts. That is one big

problem most Westerners make. Aside fomr having a difficult childhood - i am

studying Tibetan Buddhism. A good deal of that (aside from the obvious

spiritual aspects) - is learning an working with inner topography of the

mind. As Chogyam Trungpa put it " Meditation is making friends with

yourself " .

Trungpa also said " To control your horse - give it a bigger pasture. "

Ever try not to think of a yellow elephant? The more you try 'not' to think

of it - the more you think of it. One of the paradoxical things about

consciousness. On the other hand - if what you are looking for is to know

yourself better and find some inner peace - then meditation (as a spiritual

path) is an excellent choice.

When Tibetans say 'meditation' - they are not referring to a weekend

workshop