Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 what you guys are describing, as far as allopathic and other practitioners cooperating rather than competing, is something i have also pondered a whole lot. actually, andrew weil is putting this into practice already. i will look for the article, but i am flakey about getting around to stuff like that, so it may take a bit. there was a significant blurb about it either in massage therapy journal or massage magazine, can't remember which, a year or so ago. apparently, he started a facility in arizona? or new mexico? where practitioners of all walks are educated about each others modalities and taught to work together to help patients devise the " recipe " that will benefit their own special needs the best. i have been trying to work toward participating in this sort of phenomena since i graduated massage school, and with the " every provider " law in WA, it seems to be starting to take shape. ~kimberlee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 At 03:42 AM 3/21/00 -0800, kim wrote: >kim <berlee > >what you guys are describing, as far as allopathic and other >practitioners cooperating rather than competing, is something i have >also pondered a whole lot. actually, andrew weil is putting this into >practice already. i will look for the article, but i am flakey about >getting around to stuff like that, so it may take a bit. there was a >significant blurb about it either in massage therapy journal or massage >magazine, can't remember which, a year or so ago. apparently, he started >a facility in arizona? or new mexico? where practitioners of all walks >are educated about each others modalities and taught to work together to >help patients devise the " recipe " that will benefit their own special >needs the best. i have been trying to work toward participating in this >sort of phenomena since i graduated massage school, and with the " every >provider " law in WA, it seems to be starting to take shape. > >~kimberlee ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hi Kimberlee! Here is Dr. Weil's site (He's all over the net with book sales). http://www.drweilselfhealing.com/ Dr. Weil is the hot topic right now in holistic health. I think he offers kind of a primer to good health--but with too much " moderation " for my taste. I prefer John McDougall in the diet area and Covert Bailey for exercise. You can find some (maybe better) guru's at http://www.vegsource.org & http://healthcentral.com At Vegsource, read chapter-one from Ruth Heidrich's book " A Race for Life " ...and, without a doubt, the best nutritional book even written is Bill Harris' " The Scientific Basis of Vegetarianism. " Both are friends, and I can vouch for them. (Ruth is 65 and still setting Triathlon records--Bill is a retired ER physician whose hobbies are trampolining and skydiving--good role models.) Vegsource probably has the most powerful list of nutrition focused docs you will find anywhere. They even have Dr. T. Colin Campbell... founder and director of the Cornell-Oxford China Diet and Health Project--the number one epidemiological study in the world as far as the relationship between diet and cancer. On HealthCentral you will find Covert Bailey--his ideas on exercise have always been ahead of their time--and he has a delightful personality. Dr. Dean Edell is an excellent source of information from a physician's perspective--he is the radio/TV host. (He has a strong science bias some of you might not like.) These folks are the ones I suggest you listen to, rather than numbskulls like Atkins and Sears--who just wanna sell books. Not one good word would be said about the hi-fat/protein group from the people I'm mentioning (not sure about Dr. Weil). I've personally seen several deaths as " side effects " from these crazy diets--not to mention gall bladder disease, exacerbated atherosclerosis & osteoporosis, gout, etc. etc. (if any of these guys are your friends, you don't need any enemies.) While I'm on the subject, here's a couple of people that aren't at Vegsource: Dean Ornish, M.D. (offers alternatives to cardiovascular surgery) and Robert Kradjian, M.D. " Save Yourself From Breast Cancer " ...a book every women should read. Locally, we have a good guy, Terry Shintani, M.D. He also has a Harvard nutritional degree, and won some professional accolades for his Waianae Diet Study. I know most of you have heard of most of these folks...but just in case... Carl http://askcarl.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 At 08:00 AM 3/21/00 -0500, Caroline Abreu wrote: >Caroline Abreu <crow > >Andy Weil's program is in AZ... and I think it will at first take the >sort of " force of personality " and financial backing that someone like >that can provide to steer programs like this into the right direction. > >I say that because I have been involved in a couple of " local networks " >that have tried to implement a form of what Carl is talking about, a >referral network that interfaces the holistic and allopathic system. It >seems like you do run into a lot of ego and poverty consciousness when >it comes time to do referrals... everyone seems to be interested in >learning more about what everyone else is doing (we would do evening >introductions and offer introductory sessions to each other). When the >system did not prove " profitable " some members dropped out (I can only >assume their motives for participating were financial to begin with). > >It was very frustrating. I suppose that not everyone will be altruistic >about wanting to integrate the systems. I do not mean letting allopathy >absorb holistic therapies, either, which seems to be the trend. I mean >allowing practitioners to work in a " separate but equal " model with >professional respect, acknowlegement and referral. > >Look what has happened with accupuncture. It went from being " quackery " >to being researched, to being acknowledged, to being absorbed. Now, you >have to be a doctor to do it in many places. That is not what we want to >happen... Right on, Caroline! You've been there too!! :-) Carl http://askcarl.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 Andy Weil's program is in AZ... and I think it will at first take the sort of " force of personality " and financial backing that someone like that can provide to steer programs like this into the right direction. I say that because I have been involved in a couple of " local networks " that have tried to implement a form of what Carl is talking about, a referral network that interfaces the holistic and allopathic system. It seems like you do run into a lot of ego and poverty consciousness when it comes time to do referrals... everyone seems to be interested in learning more about what everyone else is doing (we would do evening introductions and offer introductory sessions to each other). When the system did not prove " profitable " some members dropped out (I can only assume their motives for participating were financial to begin with). It was very frustrating. I suppose that not everyone will be altruistic about wanting to integrate the systems. I do not mean letting allopathy absorb holistic therapies, either, which seems to be the trend. I mean allowing practitioners to work in a " separate but equal " model with professional respect, acknowlegement and referral. Look what has happened with accupuncture. It went from being " quackery " to being researched, to being acknowledged, to being absorbed. Now, you have to be a doctor to do it in many places. That is not what we want to happen... kim wrote: > > kim <berlee > > what you guys are describing, as far as allopathic and other > practitioners cooperating rather than competing, is something i have > also pondered a whole lot. actually, andrew weil is putting this into > practice already. i will look for the article, but i am flakey about > getting around to stuff like that, so it may take a bit. there was a > significant blurb about it either in massage therapy journal or massage > magazine, can't remember which, a year or so ago. apparently, he started > a facility in arizona? or new mexico? where practitioners of all walks > are educated about each others modalities and taught to work together to > help patients devise the " recipe " that will benefit their own special > needs the best. i have been trying to work toward participating in this > sort of phenomena since i graduated massage school, and with the " every > provider " law in WA, it seems to be starting to take shape. > > ~kimberlee > -- --- Blessings, Crow " Look for Rainbows in the Darkness " --- Rev. Caroline Gutierrez Abreu, BS, RN, CHTP/I, CRMT, CH AIM: CaroCrow If a tree had apples last year, don't expect pears this year. " The hardest thing to learn in life is which bridge to cross and which to burn. " David Russell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 It sounds like Dr. Sills would go along with a friend of mine who once said that most doctors today are really just pharmacologists (or cutters) >Caroline Abreu <crow > > >Re: re: integrated healthcare model >Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:22:03 -0500 > >As a balancing factor, I'd like to say a word or two about a great old >General Practitioner I learned so much from when I was training as a >practical nurse at 18. Dr. Sills is dead now; he was in his 80s and >still practicing 15 years ago! He was the " old fashioned " GP, the >house-calling, horse-doctorin' jack of all trades that you don't see >anymore. He was a firm believer in using all the senses you have to >experience the patient and not rely solely on modern diagnostics. He was >definitely " hands on " ... and nose on, and eyes on, and intuitive in the >way that comes from long experience and common sense. > >I learned what cancer smells like, what a goiter feels like, what a good >bedside manner was like. I've guaged every medical experience I've had >since then by that wonderful man, and I'm afraid most of them have >suffered for the comparison. They just don't make them that way anymore. > >I would like to see a lot more " sensitivity training " in bedside manner >in the allopathic realm, and I think that includes using complementary >diagnostics such as tongue and pulse assessment and making it acceptable >to trust the intuition that is nascent in all of us. > >Boy I miss Dr. Sills. > >Michelle Hughes wrote: > > > > Michelle Hughes <lunarmm > > > > --- Caroline Abreu <crow wrote: > > > Look what has happened with accupuncture. It went > > > from being " quackery " > > > to being researched, to being acknowledged, to being > > > absorbed. Now, you > > > have to be a doctor to do it in many places. That is > > > not what we want to happen... > > > > Yes, how right you are, Caroline. Western doctors who > > do acupuncture tend to have lost the Chinese medicine > > holistic approach to the body. They use acupuncture > > in the same way they prescribe drugs, they look at the > > symptoms and then look up treatment points versus true > > Oriental diagnosis which is systemic and holistic. > > > > MichelleH > > >-- >--- >Blessings, >Crow > " Look for Rainbows in the Darkness " >--- >Rev. Caroline Gutierrez Abreu, BS, RN, CHTP/I, CRMT, CH >AIM: CaroCrow > >If a tree had apples last year, don't expect pears this year. > > " The hardest thing to learn in life is which bridge to cross >and which to burn. " David Russell > > " Look at me: I worked my way up from nothing to a state of >extreme poverty. " Groucho Marx ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 At 01:36 PM 3/21/00 -0500, you wrote: >Caroline Abreu <crow > >That is what I am talking about; by setting the bar too high for us to >enter their " realm " , yet asking us to share our knowledge and experience >in order for them to do their research, these inheritors of the great >Hippocrates are no better than the medicos in the middle ages who had >midwives burned at the stake. We need to value what we can offer and >start establishing some healthy boundaries so that we don't sell our >legacy for a few shiny beads. If the purportedly " holistic " allopaths >are slipping us the shift, what can we expect from the conventional >ones? > >Kind of reminds me of an old joke in the South, about why people keep >electing crooked politicians... the response is, we'd rather have a >crook we know about than a new one we have to figure out from scratch. >Maybe we are not looking past the superficial acceptance of >complementary therapies amongst the mainstream to see their motivation, >which is usually financial. For example, no one mainstream was the least >bit interested in real research in vitamin therapy or herbalism until it >became popular as an alternative (the public's wallets were talking); >now the FDA and the whole parade are involved in attempts at regulation >of food supplements and herbs. > >We have a long, long way to go. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I loved the way Lyndon Johnson put it, Caroline: he said: " Its better to have a skunk inside the tent pissing out, than a skunk outside the tent pissing in. " Another adage that is more to the point, " To find the truth: Follow The Money! " I want to repeat tho...I think the Internet will be a great " leveler of playing fields. " I certainly hope so, cuz I'm getting too old to cycle thru many more " systems. " Carl http://askcarl.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 --- Caroline Abreu <crow wrote: > Andy Weil's program is in AZ... and I think it will > at first take the > sort of " force of personality " and financial backing > that someone like > that can provide to steer programs like this into > the right direction. Check out the website on the " Integrative Program " at this university - it's only open to 40 medical doctors! I had several email discussions with them asking why they weren't integrating the program, which I believe is a politial manuever to position themselves as 'legitimate'. They said that to allow other practitioners into the program would 'water it down'!! I said no, it would round it out and be a model for what you are preaching. They never wrote me back. Linda Talk to your friends online with Messenger. http://im. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 That is what I am talking about; by setting the bar too high for us to enter their " realm " , yet asking us to share our knowledge and experience in order for them to do their research, these inheritors of the great Hippocrates are no better than the medicos in the middle ages who had midwives burned at the stake. We need to value what we can offer and start establishing some healthy boundaries so that we don't sell our legacy for a few shiny beads. If the purportedly " holistic " allopaths are slipping us the shift, what can we expect from the conventional ones? Kind of reminds me of an old joke in the South, about why people keep electing crooked politicians... the response is, we'd rather have a crook we know about than a new one we have to figure out from scratch. Maybe we are not looking past the superficial acceptance of complementary therapies amongst the mainstream to see their motivation, which is usually financial. For example, no one mainstream was the least bit interested in real research in vitamin therapy or herbalism until it became popular as an alternative (the public's wallets were talking); now the FDA and the whole parade are involved in attempts at regulation of food supplements and herbs. We have a long, long way to go. Thanks, Linda, for the cup of coffee ;-) isis isis wrote: > > isis isis <isismoonisis > > --- Caroline Abreu <crow wrote: > > Andy Weil's program is in AZ... and I think it will > > at first take the > > sort of " force of personality " and financial backing > > that someone like > > that can provide to steer programs like this into > > the right direction. > > Check out the website on the " Integrative Program " > at this university - it's only open to 40 medical > doctors! I had several email discussions with them > asking why they weren't integrating the program, > which I believe is a politial manuever to position > themselves as 'legitimate'. They said that to allow > other practitioners into the program would 'water > it down'!! I said no, it would round it out and be a > model for what you are preaching. > > They never wrote me back. > > Linda > -- --- Blessings, Crow " Look for Rainbows in the Darkness " --- Rev. Caroline Gutierrez Abreu, BS, RN, CHTP/I, CRMT, CH AIM: CaroCrow If a tree had apples last year, don't expect pears this year. " The hardest thing to learn in life is which bridge to cross and which to burn. " David Russell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 >Kind of reminds me of an old joke in the South, about why people keep >electing crooked politicians... the response is, we'd rather have a >crook we know about than a new one we have to figure out from scratch. >Maybe we are not looking past the superficial acceptance of >complementary therapies amongst the mainstream to see their motivation, >which is usually financial. For example, no one mainstream was the least >bit interested in real research in vitamin therapy or herbalism until it >became popular as an alternative (the public's wallets were talking); >now the FDA and the whole parade are involved in attempts at regulation >of food supplements and herbs. The financial and political backing of some these organizations is really pretty " interesting " when you delve deep into what is happening. Get ahold of a book called, " 7 Steps to Freedom II: How to Escape the American Rat Race " , by Benjamin D. Suarez. It's one of the best business books ever written (in my opinion) and it also details some of the redtape " (read extreme harassment) that Ben had to go through when dealing with a totally safe and effective food product. If you're interested in the book I think you'll have to look at the used book stores like bibliofind.com or abebooks.com. Marc AwesomeHealth: -A whole approach to help make your mind even sharper, & push your physical, career, & relationship health to the next level. http://www.awesomehealth.com/tr/a.cgi?sig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 At 04:22 PM 3/21/00 -0500, you wrote: >Caroline Abreu <crow > >As a balancing factor, I'd like to say a word or two about a great old >General Practitioner I learned so much from when I was training as a >practical nurse at 18. Dr. Sills is dead now; he was in his 80s and >still practicing 15 years ago! He was the " old fashioned " GP, the >house-calling, horse-doctorin' jack of all trades that you don't see >anymore. He was a firm believer in using all the senses you have to >experience the patient and not rely solely on modern diagnostics. He was >definitely " hands on " ... and nose on, and eyes on, and intuitive in the >way that comes from long experience and common sense. > >I learned what cancer smells like, what a goiter feels like, what a good >bedside manner was like. I've guaged every medical experience I've had >since then by that wonderful man, and I'm afraid most of them have >suffered for the comparison. They just don't make them that way anymore. > >I would like to see a lot more " sensitivity training " in bedside manner >in the allopathic realm, and I think that includes using complementary >diagnostics such as tongue and pulse assessment and making it acceptable >to trust the intuition that is nascent in all of us. > >Boy I miss Dr. Sills. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yeah...I can remember the ol' GP. They were wonderful docs! I grew up in a small farming community in the 40s and 50s and that's all we had. I think there are lot of new doctors that would love to practice medicine like that--but the " system " beats the notion out of them: the insurance system/HMOs, the legal system, the bureaucratic system, etc. And it would have been so easy, and even cost effective, to hand that great process off to the nurse practitioner. Do you think it will ever return? ...in some small measure? Carl http://askcarl.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 --- Caroline Abreu <crow wrote: > Look what has happened with accupuncture. It went > from being " quackery " > to being researched, to being acknowledged, to being > absorbed. Now, you > have to be a doctor to do it in many places. That is > not what we want to happen... Yes, how right you are, Caroline. Western doctors who do acupuncture tend to have lost the Chinese medicine holistic approach to the body. They use acupuncture in the same way they prescribe drugs, they look at the symptoms and then look up treatment points versus true Oriental diagnosis which is systemic and holistic. MichelleH Talk to your friends online with Messenger. http://im. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 As a balancing factor, I'd like to say a word or two about a great old General Practitioner I learned so much from when I was training as a practical nurse at 18. Dr. Sills is dead now; he was in his 80s and still practicing 15 years ago! He was the " old fashioned " GP, the house-calling, horse-doctorin' jack of all trades that you don't see anymore. He was a firm believer in using all the senses you have to experience the patient and not rely solely on modern diagnostics. He was definitely " hands on " ... and nose on, and eyes on, and intuitive in the way that comes from long experience and common sense. I learned what cancer smells like, what a goiter feels like, what a good bedside manner was like. I've guaged every medical experience I've had since then by that wonderful man, and I'm afraid most of them have suffered for the comparison. They just don't make them that way anymore. I would like to see a lot more " sensitivity training " in bedside manner in the allopathic realm, and I think that includes using complementary diagnostics such as tongue and pulse assessment and making it acceptable to trust the intuition that is nascent in all of us. Boy I miss Dr. Sills. Michelle Hughes wrote: > > Michelle Hughes <lunarmm > > --- Caroline Abreu <crow wrote: > > Look what has happened with accupuncture. It went > > from being " quackery " > > to being researched, to being acknowledged, to being > > absorbed. Now, you > > have to be a doctor to do it in many places. That is > > not what we want to happen... > > Yes, how right you are, Caroline. Western doctors who > do acupuncture tend to have lost the Chinese medicine > holistic approach to the body. They use acupuncture > in the same way they prescribe drugs, they look at the > symptoms and then look up treatment points versus true > Oriental diagnosis which is systemic and holistic. > > MichelleH > -- --- Blessings, Crow " Look for Rainbows in the Darkness " --- Rev. Caroline Gutierrez Abreu, BS, RN, CHTP/I, CRMT, CH AIM: CaroCrow If a tree had apples last year, don't expect pears this year. " The hardest thing to learn in life is which bridge to cross and which to burn. " David Russell " Look at me: I worked my way up from nothing to a state of extreme poverty. " Groucho Marx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2000 Report Share Posted March 22, 2000 Hi All :-) Michelle Hughes wrote, " Western doctors who do acupuncture tend to have lost the Chinese medicine holistic approach to the body. They use acupuncture in the same way they prescribe drugs, they look at the symptoms and then look up treatment points versus true Oriental diagnosis which is systemic and holistic. " This approach isn't limited to Western doctors. I went to a " wholistic practicioner " , who advertizes heavily in this area, for acupuncture because (1) I had been feeling lethargic, (2) I had wanted to experience acupuncture for a number of years but hadn't gotten around to it and (3) he was recommended by a friend. His actions match your description - only I didn't get a treatment. But I did get charged for a consultation ($100). Never again with him. To me the saddest thing was his demeanor suggested he really had no enthusiasm for acupuncture. I didn't enjoy being a " patient " of his, and in retrospect, I'm really glad he didn't treat me. _____________________________ Jimmy K. Ramirez / Kingsville, Texas jimmyk " There is a great difference between worry and concern. A worried person sees a problem, and a concerned person solves a problem. " Harold Stephens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2000 Report Share Posted March 23, 2000 At 12:33 AM 3/22/00 -0600, you wrote: > " J. Ramirez " <jimmyk > >Hi All :-) > > Michelle Hughes wrote, " Western doctors who >do acupuncture tend to have lost the Chinese medicine >holistic approach to the body. They use acupuncture >in the same way they prescribe drugs, they look at the >symptoms and then look up treatment points versus true >Oriental diagnosis which is systemic and holistic. " > > This approach isn't limited to Western doctors. I went to a > " wholistic practicioner " , who advertizes heavily in this area, for >acupuncture because (1) I had been feeling lethargic, (2) I had wanted to >experience acupuncture for a number of years but hadn't gotten around to it >and (3) he was recommended by a friend. > > His actions match your description - only I didn't get a treatment. >But I did get charged for a consultation ($100). Never again with him. To >me the saddest thing was his demeanor suggested he really had no enthusiasm >for acupuncture. I didn't enjoy being a " patient " of his, and in >retrospect, I'm really glad he didn't treat me. > >_____________________________ >Jimmy K. Ramirez / Kingsville, Texas >jimmyk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Wow, Jimmy, a hundred bucks! I think I'd almost rather have some one hold me up with a gun and take my wallet than steal from me that way. There's something extra-sleazy about someone that first has your trust and uses that to take your money. carl http://askcarl.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2000 Report Share Posted March 25, 2000 As sick people find no satisfaction with the medical profession (allopathic) they will seek altenative solutions to health. As the high cost of health care continues to grow people will turn to natural and spiritual sources. I only hope that alternative medicine does not continue to bow to the almighty dollar as some are doing. In many cases only the rich can afford ANY treatment alternative or anyother, for that matter. http://community.webtv.net/Talks-withtrees/PrayerChain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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