Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 At 05:20 PM 3/20/00 -0500, Caroline Abreu wrote: >Caroline Abreu <crow > >Gee, Carl, I thought it got posted to the list; I responded to it and >mailed it... now I'm wondering where it went <LOL> Remail it to me and >I'll send it along Hope you don't mind, Caroline ...I'm just sending it here--not that big a deal. Everybody seems to tolerate my long-winded babbling okay. Carl `````````````````````````````````````````` Kim's search got me thinking about this again--an idea I'd like to throw out to you guys and get your reaction. (I don't mind hearing negatives.) Whenever I approach health care folks with this idea about half of them think it's a really dumb idea--and I've received some criticism as I've used a few of the principles in my private practice--and now online. I'm thinking of a referral system with lots of triage principles. For example, when one initially goes into a large medical clinic, the system is to be passed from the primary care docs and (sometimes) filtered through specialists and lab tests until hopefully there's a diagnosis and cure, or at least relief of symptoms. Now, think of that on a more global basis. In the late 1970s, when the word holistic got popularized, a group of us (equal thirds of traditional docs--alternative therapists--interested persons) formed an association that could be kind of a clearing-house among all the professional groups--but (in my opinion) too many were either looking only for referrals, had strong turf feelings, or couldn't see beyond their professional bias...so the idea caved in. My idea that brought the strongest criticism was that every therapist should become better educated about every treatment modality available in the community--whether they approved or not...letting the patient make the final decision what was best for them. (a usual criticism: " sounds good but won't fly. " ) I think it will not only " fly " but opens the door for a new professional group--if someone wants to be a pioneer. Carl http://askcarl.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2000 Report Share Posted March 20, 2000 Gee, Carl, I thought it got posted to the list; I responded to it and mailed it... now I'm wondering where it went <LOL> Remail it to me and I'll send it along (though I'm sure my response won't be nearly as profound ;-) You can call me Caroline, or Crow... I answer to both :-) I don't consider healthy self-promotion to be a problem; I only consider boastful or delusional promotion a problem. There are always people out there looking for a quick fix or miracle cure (those suckers that are born every minute and other desperate folks). Seems like there is enough confusion about things without exasperatingly over the top claims. Frankly, the people who bother me the most are the diet industry, but that is another story... And it is interesting that we are teetering very close to a conversation we have been having on another list, about the " educational arms race " going on in massage therapy... frankly, I can't imagine a bigger death knell for the integrity of a therapy than to align itself with the allopathic system instead of policing themselves and setting their own standards and entry level requirements. Have you ever read Jean Auel's books (the Clan of the Cave Bear series)? I recently watched the movie again, and wondered about the inevitability and desirability of " progress " ... Thanks for the thought provoking conversations, Carl & Ray. Crow Carl Weisbrod wrote: > > Should I call you Crow or Caroline? I can tell such stories > about allopathic medicine, and I know you can too. > Traditional medicine is scared to death, and always > has been, of competition. They handled the ND threat > in the 30s by absorbing them...did the same thing with > osteopaths in the 50s. They attempted earlier to do it > with chiropractors, but ol' BJ Palmer couldn't be > bought off. My grandparents were the first chiropractors > to spend a night in jail for practicing medicine w/o a > license--and opened up Calif to the profession, so I > heard lotsa stories in my youth. I can recall my > ol' grandpop complaining bitterly that the " new crop " > were shooting themselves in the foot--and I think they did. > > My main rant & rave is against unnecessary surgery when > there is a non-evasive approach--Ornish vs Coronary bypass, > etc. I once had several journal articles (from the 80s) that > rated unnecessary surgeries (you know what they are, > Caroline) and when I recently went to the archives to find > those articles, they were nowhere to be found. > > I think another confusion is the idea that medicine > is 100% science. I think if that were true it would be > practiced much differently. Few in medicine, for example, > pay much attention to the epidemiological studies. I > think the cause (and cure) for cardiovascular disease > and cancer (at least the carcinomas) is clearly evident in > several major studies (eg, Framingham & China/Cornell) > > I'm afraid " boasting and braging " is important--in the form > of publishing. I've always worked quietly, concentrating > on my work...but if I had it to do over again, I'd make more > noise. It's hard to help those who don't know you exist. > > Nice email, Caroline, thanks--did you get the thing I sent > to your personal email address? I didn't know if you wanted > something like that posted here. > > Carl -- --- Blessings, Crow " Look for Rainbows in the Darkness " --- Rev. Caroline Gutierrez Abreu, BS, RN, CHTP/I, CRMT, CH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 At 05:20 PM 3/20/00 -0500, Caroline Abreu wrote: >Caroline Abreu <crow > >Gee, Carl, I thought it got posted to the list; I responded to it and >mailed it... now I'm wondering where it went <LOL> Remail it to me and >I'll send it along (though I'm sure my response won't be nearly as >profound ;-) > >Have you ever read Jean Auel's books (the Clan of the Cave Bear series)? >I recently watched the movie again, and wondered about the inevitability >and desirability of " progress " ... > >Thanks for the thought provoking conversations, Carl & Ray. > >Crow ````````````````````````````````` I read the first two, Caroline. Wow, that second one was *blush* pretty sexy! I know she hung out with (I think it was) the Johanson crowd. That series did a lot to acquaint folks with the fact that there was a lot happening long before recorded history...the setting was about 35,000 yrs. She musta also got some hate mail from creationists. Lessee...I don't believe the Neanderthal folks were the jerks as she made them out to be. I guess she needed to do that to move the plot along. I loved the concept that they had innate knowledge in the use of plants--it fits with their large parietal lobe--larger than ours--so it makes sense they had some abilities we don't have. Of course she gave the characters 20th Century neuroses--I don't think that's accurate--wouldn't have been good plots without it tho. I don't think society was so tight then. My vote would go more of the single family unit...cuz there was no technology yet for an agrarian lifestyle--so they had to stay spread out more to have enough food, and a buffer space as protection from the large carnivores, at least on the savannas. The hunting part was certainly overblown, but necessary for the story. Really wonderful stories tho...wish I could write like that. Carl http://askcarl.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 Hi everyone I'm Marc, I joined the list a couple weeks ago and wanted to get a feel for things before I posted. My post is below. ) >I'm thinking of a referral system with lots of triage principles. For >example, when one initially goes into a large medical clinic, the >system is to be passed from the primary care docs and (sometimes) >filtered through specialists and lab tests until hopefully there's a >diagnosis and cure, or at least relief of symptoms. > >Now, think of that on a more global basis. > >In the late 1970s, when the word holistic got popularized, a group of us >(equal thirds of traditional docs--alternative therapists--interested persons) >formed an association that could be kind of a clearing-house among >all the professional groups--but (in my opinion) too many were either >looking only for referrals, had strong turf feelings, or couldn't see beyond >their professional bias...so the idea caved in. > >My idea that brought the strongest criticism was that every therapist >should become better educated about every treatment modality >available in the community--whether they approved or not...letting the >patient make the final decision what was best for them. (a usual >criticism: " sounds good but won't fly. " ) > >I think it will not only " fly " but opens the door for a new professional >group--if someone wants to be a pioneer. This is a great idea that really should have been done from the " beginning " . Every health worker, allied health worker, and alternative therapy worker should be required to attend a class on exactly what it is that other professions do. Unfortunately too many patients take on a victim mentality and the dreaded " Dr. knows all " dis-ease and either don't investigate alternatives for themselves or expect their doctor to have all the answers (although this is changing). This doesn't do much for self-empowerment, and it sure doesn't help when even well meaning doctors aren't informed about alternative therapies, etc. LOL, not that they don't have enough to read already. ) In OT (Occupational Therapy) school we were taught that people are to be treated as a whole person, they aren't their dysfunction, etc. We were also taught to talk to the patient and find out what it is that is important to them and set their goals accordingly. When it comes down to it, this makes so much sense...it's really basic. The patient is the customer, why should an HMO or insurance company be able to dictate what kind of treatment someone can or cannot have? The patient needs to be put in control of their own outcome. Usually if they're in the hospital they're sick already (either that or they just like the food ) ). Taking that control away from them only makes them more of a " victim " and takes more of their power away, creating a downward spiral. Of course managed care makes all of this that much more interesting (read restrictive). <<<I think it will not only " fly " but opens the door for a new professional group--if someone wants to be a pioneer.>>> This would definitely give more meaning to the term " case manager " . I think you've got some great ideas Carl. I'm not sure how ready the medical community is for it, as you've mentioned earlier egos can get in the way. The trick would be to have tons of data showing better outcomes and more money saved, not to mention the really big challenge of somehow skirting all of the organizations and companies that want " their " share of the pie. The research would of course take years (especially considering how scientific the medical community in general is, although this is changing now that they see their " cash cow " headed for " alternative " pastures). Warmly, Marc Wiltse AwesomeHealth: -A whole approach to help make your mind even sharper, & push your physical, career, & relationship health to the next level. http://www.awesomehealth.com/tr/a.cgi?sig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2000 Report Share Posted March 21, 2000 At 03:35 AM 3/21/00 -0500, Marc wrote: >Marc <marc > >Hi everyone I'm Marc, I joined the list a couple weeks ago and wanted to >get a feel for things before I posted. > >This is a great idea that really should have been done from the > " beginning " . Every health worker, allied health worker, and alternative >therapy worker should be required to attend a class on exactly what it is >that other professions do. > >Unfortunately too many patients take on a victim mentality and the dreaded > " Dr. knows all " dis-ease and either don't investigate alternatives for >themselves or expect their doctor to have all the answers (although this is >changing). This doesn't do much for self-empowerment, and it sure doesn't >help when even well meaning doctors aren't informed about alternative >therapies, etc. LOL, not that they don't have enough to read already. ) > >In OT (Occupational Therapy) school we were taught that people are to be >treated as a whole person, they aren't their dysfunction, etc. We were >also taught to talk to the patient and find out what it is that is >important to them and set their goals accordingly. When it comes down to >it, this makes so much sense...it's really basic. The patient is the >customer, why should an HMO or insurance company be able to dictate what >kind of treatment someone can or cannot have? The patient needs to be put >in control of their own outcome. Usually if they're in the hospital >they're sick already (either that or they just like the food ) ). Taking >that control away from them only makes them more of a " victim " and takes >more of their power away, creating a downward spiral. Of course managed >care makes all of this that much more interesting (read restrictive). > ><<<I think it will not only " fly " but opens the door for a new professional >group--if someone wants to be a pioneer.>>> > >This would definitely give more meaning to the term " case manager " . I >think you've got some great ideas Carl. I'm not sure how ready the medical >community is for it, as you've mentioned earlier egos can get in the way. > >The trick would be to have tons of data showing better outcomes and more >money saved, not to mention the really big challenge of somehow skirting >all of the organizations and companies that want " their " share of the pie. >The research would of course take years (especially considering how >scientific the medical community in general is, although this is changing >now that they see their " cash cow " headed for " alternative " pastures). > >Warmly, > >Marc Wiltse >AwesomeHealth: > >-A whole approach to help make your mind even sharper, & push > your physical, career, & relationship health to the next > level. >http://www.awesomehealth.com/tr/a.cgi?sig ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Good post Marc...thoughtful ideas. I think you're a good addition to the group. The medical profession will never be ready for the ideas I had...they weren't ready back then, and they aren't any more ready now (in my opinion). The patient's, however, are a bit more ready, because many are more desperate--they're the ones that ultimately pay the bills anyway--the insurance companies are a pain in the ass to work with--all they can see is the bottom line--and of course the bureaucracy is in the middle of everything with their rascally and incompetent meddling. (Wow, I'm sounding like a cranky old man!) I think the most import group to focus on is one's personal clientele; gotta treat em like queens and kings, but expect loyalty. Probably the Internet is the best venue--right now it has huge growing pains, but those should shake down with a little time. Nice to meet you, Marc! Carl http://askcarl.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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