Guest guest Posted November 13, 1999 Report Share Posted November 13, 1999 I have heard discussion of but, where is it written, that if under duress, ie a hostage situation, a potential rapist or other such scenarios, one should try to distract the one with power over, by way of getting them to acknowledge your humanity, thus making you more than just an object? Can you help me here??? Robert A Student of Life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 1999 Report Share Posted November 14, 1999 Hi Robert, I think I know what you're getting at but what is it that you need to know specifically? Lucille ------------------ Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 1999 Report Share Posted November 14, 1999 Rob: I am not sure where you could find this information, unless it would be under the category of hostage negotiation. The tendency to neutralize or objectify the victim is typical of most criminal minds, especially the sociopathic personality. You might try asking someone more familiar with criminal pathology; I seem to recall this strategy being used in " Silence of the Lambs " by the mother of the hostage... it didn't work too well ;-) Crow RevFlammia wrote: > > RevFlammia > > I have heard discussion of but, where is it written, that if under duress, ie > > a hostage situation, a potential rapist or other such scenarios, one should > try to distract the one with power over, by way of getting them to > acknowledge your humanity, thus making you more than just an object? Can you > > help me here??? > > Robert > A Student of Life > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 1999 Report Share Posted November 14, 1999 Robert, I've had the same idea myself, although I also wonder if such a person would be so out of touch with their pain and vulnerability that they would not recognize it in another. If they did see it in their victim, they might be forced to feel their own pain as well. Perhaps a more successful approach would be to recognize their humanity, rather than trying to make them recognize ours...? Sam (new to the list) >RevFlammia wrote: >> >> RevFlammia >> >> I have heard discussion of but, where is it written, that if under duress, ie >> a hostage situation, a potential rapist or other such scenarios, one should >> try to distract the one with power over, by way of getting them to >> acknowledge your humanity, thus making you more than just an object? Can you >> help me here??? >> >> Robert >> A Student of Life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 1999 Report Share Posted November 15, 1999 >I have heard discussion of but, where is it written, that if under duress, ie >a hostage situation, a potential rapist or other such scenarios, one should >try to distract the one with power over, by way of getting them to >acknowledge your humanity, thus making you more than just an object? Can you >help me here??? > >Robert >A Student of Life I personally know of at least one instance of this working. But more relevant to this list is the idea that facing ones humanity is not necessarily something to be forced. The violent reaction possible in a criminal situation translates as a loss of effectiveness in a therapeutic relationship. Since therapy in most senses is not a crisis situation, there is no need to rush to confrontation. Patiently holding our space and teaching by example leave the client a little necessary wiggle room, and also allow for a touch of humility. There is, after all, the remote possibility that we might be wrong ;-) From Carl Jung, " Humans will go to any length, no matter how absurd, to avoid confronting their own souls " . thanks, dan Daniel Schmidt Bodywork and Somatics 501 Hillsborough Road Carrboro, NC 27510 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 1999 Report Share Posted November 15, 1999 To be serious there's an excellent, if harrowing, example in Bruno Bettelheim's book 'The Informed Heart'. Bettelheim was a Jewish Psychoanalyst who was thrown into a Nazi concentration camp (Buchenwald IIRC). He was only released because he'd worked on an American diplomat's child and the diplomat kicked up a fuss. Bettelheim wrote about how he'd needed treatment for an injured hand. This was normally hopeless as the guard would send any Jews away as a waste of treatment. Bettelheim treated the guard as a human being, presented his hand as a straightforward problem and suggested the solution. The guard not only let him through but enquired about his health afterwards. >From Carl Jung, " Humans will go to any length, no matter how absurd, to avoid confronting their own souls " . From Bruno Bettelheim: 'Men (sic) are not insects; they will die rather than be treated as such.' From Bertrand Russell: 'Most men would die rather than think, in fact most men do.' and just 'cos I like it: 'Listen someone's screaming in agony. Fortunately I speak it fluently.' Spike Milligan. __ Ged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 1999 Report Share Posted November 17, 1999 It seems to me that this technique would work better in some situations than in others. I've heard it referred to in hostage situations more so than in other crises such as rape. In a terrorist situation you have a much better chance of appealing to the individual since terrorists are often not intrinsically bad people. Often, they are people who find themselves involved in a situation not of their making. This can be true in a case where someone buys into an idealogy that makes them willing to take hostages, but unprepared for the fact that these hostages are actually people. It's similar to what a lot of combat veterens describe in that they are trained to kill, but develop psychological problems when confronted with the fact that they its people that thaey're killing rather than the " enemy. " In the case of rape or other random forms of violence, the individual in power is aware of who they're in power over. I would be concerned that an attempt to influence them by confronting them with your humanity might fuel the fires of their psychosis. Something along the lines of , " yes, I know you're human. That's why I'm messing with you. " I think that's where the mother in " Silence of the Lambs " went wrong. I think he was digging the pleas on a level that most of us could never imagine. Pure spec on my part since I've never been on either side of one of these kind of situations. I have known a pretty wide variety of people, though, and I have known some who would not be particularly impressed about one's humanity. Ray >camas > > >Re: A question... >Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:51:22 -0800 (PST) > >Robert, >I've had the same idea myself, although I also wonder if such a person >would >be so out of touch with their pain and vulnerability that they would not >recognize it in another. If they did see it in their victim, they might be >forced to feel their own pain as well. Perhaps a more successful approach >would be to recognize their humanity, rather than trying to make them >recognize ours...? >Sam (new to the list) > > >RevFlammia wrote: > >> > >> RevFlammia > >> > >> I have heard discussion of but, where is it written, that if under >duress, ie > >> a hostage situation, a potential rapist or other such scenarios, one >should > >> try to distract the one with power over, by way of getting them to > >> acknowledge your humanity, thus making you more than just an object? >Can you > >> help me here??? > >> > >> Robert > >> A Student of Life > > >------ >**************************************** >To from , send an email to >- > ><< text3.html >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 RevFlammia <RevFlammia < > Sunday, November 14, 1999 2:11 AM A question... >RevFlammia > >I have heard discussion of but, where is it written, that if under duress, ie >a hostage situation, a potential rapist or other such scenarios, one should >try to distract the one with power over, by way of getting them to >acknowledge your humanity, thus making you more than just an object? Can you >help me here??? Caroline Myss tells a story of a young woman who took a lift from a man and once in the car realised that his intentions towards her were to harm her. She appealed to his humanity by letting him know how glad she was that he'd picked her up and how safe she felt with him and he fell for it. What is your interest in this whole issue? Love Nina > >Robert >A Student of Life > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU! >Tired of filling out forms and remembering passwords? Gator fills in >forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons! > <a href= " http://clickme./ad/gator4 " >Click Here</a> > >----- - >**************************************** >To from , send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 1999 Report Share Posted November 18, 1999 Thanks to Keith and the list for your input... The Ramblemuse was a good idea Caro.. In a message dated 99-11-18 03:18:39 EST, keg writes: << Personal Security Guidelines For the American Business Traveler Overseas http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/security/security_business.html Under the section on kidnapping survival guidelines is: Remain cooperative. Attempt to establish rapport with your captors or guards. Once a level of communication is achieved, try asking for items which will increase your personal comfort. Make them aware of your needs. This statement is identical with that in the Word document of the same title available at http://ds.state.gov/osac/publications/default.cfm (both of these are department of state sites) U.S. Army Space & Missile Defense Command http://www.smdc.army.mil/ForceProtect/Booklet/page30.html Establish rapport with your captors. Let them know you are human. Do not try to deceive them or support their cause. Show them pictures of your family members. ------------------------ The basic idea is that by establishing rapport and humanity you become less of a dehumanized " other " and more of a person. In the Aikido sense you are blending with the energy so that you have a chance at redirecting it. In a sense you are breaking down the trance in which the perpetrator is operating. For more along those general lines, I might refer you to Terry Dobson and Victor Miller, Aikido in Everyday Life, North Atlantic, Berkeley, ISBN 1-55643-151-1. (yes, this is also in my library, but not YET in the bibliography). ...Keith-- >> RevFlammia wrote: > > > I have heard discussion of but, where is it written, that if under > duress, ie a hostage situation, a potential rapist or other such > scenarios, one should try to distract the one with power over, by > way of getting them to acknowledge your humanity, thus making you more > than just an object? Can you > help me here??? > > Robert > A Student of Life > Personal Security Guidelines For the American Business Traveler Overseas http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/security/security_business.html Under the section on kidnapping survival guidelines is: Remain cooperative. Attempt to establish rapport with your captors or guards. Once a level of communication is achieved, try asking for items which will increase your personal comfort. Make them aware of your needs. This statement is identical with that in the Word document of the same title available at http://ds.state.gov/osac/publications/default.cfm (both of these are department of state sites) U.S. Army Space & Missile Defense Command http://www.smdc.army.mil/ForceProtect/Booklet/page30.html Establish rapport with your captors. Let them know you are human. Do not try to deceive them or support their cause. Show them pictures of your family members. ------------------------ The basic idea is that by establishing rapport and humanity you become less of a dehumanized " other " and more of a person. In the Aikido sense you are blending with the energy so that you have a chance at redirecting it. In a sense you are breaking down the trance in which the perpetrator is operating. For more along those general lines, I might refer you to Terry Dobson and Victor Miller, Aikido in Everyday Life, North Atlantic, Berkeley, ISBN 1-55643-151-1. (yes, this is also in my library, but not YET in the bibliography). ....Keith -- +-----+--+ I Keith Eric Grant I We must remember that everything I I <keg I is ordinary and extraordinary. It I I-----I is our minds that either open or I I Over the hills, but not too far away I close. Details are not good or I I from the San Francisco East Bay I bad. They are details. -- Natalie I I I Goldberg, Writing Down the Bones I +-----+--+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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