Guest guest Posted August 1, 2001 Report Share Posted August 1, 2001 Very debatable I know, but Renee there are already in place laws which prohibit criminals from buying guns. If we took away guns from decent people such as yourself, then only the criminals would have them as they will do whatever it takes to get one anyway, including but not limited to stealing them from wherever they can. I think it is a more accurate comparison then you might think. The following (an excerpt from one of his articles) was researched by Dennis Clark, a very good friend of mine who is a radio show host and who specializes in doing programs on psychiatric atrocities and government abuses. He is also very much into natural health. Love, Doc Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.505-772-5889Dr.IanShillington "More Americans are being killed each year by medical treatments than have been killed in combat in all the wars in which Americans have fought, including the World Wars. The death toll is in excess of 750,000 killed by medical treatments each year, over 13 million seriously wounded by medical treatment each year and over 3 million disabled each year by medical treatments. Better than one in five Americans who dies each year is actually killed by a medical treatment. The same holds true for the British, the French, the Australians and New Zealanders and others. The authorities in the Federal Government are aware of this. The heads of the major medical associations are all aware of this. The only ones who don't know or appreciate the gravity of this situation are the people doing the dieing (and by the way, these figures don't include abortions) The medical/psychiatric/pharmaceutical/insurance racket in the United States alone is worth over $1.6 trillion per year. It is greater than 15% of the National Gross Domestic Product of the United States of America. The lobbies which represent this criminal enterprise are the largest and best funded on Earth. These are the "king makers" in politics in America and around the world. Further, the international bankers behind this industrial complex who use it to harvest the wealth of populations while betraying and doing them in, constitute the actual core of the heart of the main problems on Earth at this time. Each year in the United States, more Americans die from the side effects of the class of drugs known as "non steroidal anti inflammatory drugs" (NSAIDS). This is the class of drugs that includes aspirin, Ibuprophin, Alive, Motrin, etc. Just two of the side effects of these NSAIDS kill more than double the number of Americans EACH YEAR (116,500), than were killed in the entire Viet Nam War (58,000). Just those two side effects of the NSAIDS, congestive heart failure and internal bleeding, kill more Americans each year than a combination of all murders in the U.S., all suicides in the U.S., all traffic and transportation related fatalities in the U.S. combined. Overall, about one-third of all hospitalizations in the United States each year are the result of the side effects of prescription and over the counter pharmaceuticals. If these hospitalizations were to end, most hospitals would have to fully reorganize or go out of business and the same would hold true for most mortuaries. The United States of America now has more people in its prisons than any Nation on Earth. The vast bulk of that population comes from less than five percent of the Nation's population, Black men between the ages of eighteen and thirty-nine. The vast bulk of those, way over half of them, have been imprisoned for drug-related offenses. The vast bulk of those for possession of marijuana, all as part of the "war on drugs." Wars are not waged against inanimate objects. Wars are waged against populations for various reasons. The war on drugs, was deliberately and discriminatingly directed from its inception at the African-American population to give the impression to the spectators in the American population that our "government" was "serious" and "wanted to do something about the drug problem in the U.S." According to Barry McCaffery, the recent Drug Czar, the total number of Americans killed by illegal drugs, in all drug related incidents each year, including all overdoses and all traffic fatalities related to the use of illegal substances and all of the drug related murders, including the "turf wars" for the control of drug distribution lines and territories in the U.S. is about 15,000. For this, politicians keep increasing the police forces and expanding prisons as a "solution." The psychs of course as they preach that the crime problem is the product of a "deficit of punishment." Meanwhile, the vast bulk of drug addicts in the country are addicted to legal drugs. Tens of millions of America's children have been manufactured into drug addicts, criminals and madness by this criminal enterprise, wholly out of control. Practically all of the drug related deaths, hospitalizations and people disabled by drugs each year are so killed or injured by "legal" pharmaceuticals, criminally, negligently and irresponsibly developed, approved, distributed, sold and prescribed. But, it's only "criminal" if the law is applied equally to all. there is a recent case in point here in Florida. A man gave a drug (morphine) to his girlfriend and she died of an overdose. In Florida, his "illegal" giving of this drug to her constitutes a capitol crime for which he will likely be executed in the electric chair or (more aptly) if he chooses, by lethal injection. Each year in Florida, there are three or four such cases. However, each year in Florida, tens of thousands are killed by prescriptions, negligently and irresponsibly executed (so to speak) . . . " Yes, but that is just the registered gun owners. What about all the criminals that own guns and kill. I agree about the physicians causing to many deaths, but it's not an accurate comparison. Guns kill too many people, (and we need stricter gun laws I think) but having said that, I have 2 registered guns and am responsible with them.Renee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2001 Report Share Posted August 1, 2001 If we took > away guns from decent > people such as yourself, then only the criminals > would have them as they > will do whatever it takes to get one anyway, > including but not limited > to stealing them from wherever they can. I gotta put in my 2 cents worth here. I live in Australia where most people do not own guns. I have never seen a gun, nor do I know of any one who has been shot by one, or know anyone who owns one. Yes, criminals can get them, and so can ordinary people under strict conditions, but it is not common like in America. The logic that I must have a gun because the criminals have them ( and most dont), is warped from my perspective , coming from a country where guns are not common. Its like saying every country should develop nuclear weapons to defend themselves, and keep developing them- just because one country has them. Doesnt add up. I am glad I live in a country where we dont have guns mostly, and i think most people in Australia are- we look at America with some incredulity, and are grateful to live in a country where we dont feel we 'need' guns. OT, but it came up. love peela ===== May the long time sun shine upon you, all love suround you, and the pure light within you guide your way on. Traditional Blessing Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger http://phonecard./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2001 Report Share Posted August 2, 2001 I find it interesting, and by george down right inspiring, matter of fact, I'M READY TO GO KICK SOME COMMIE KIESTERS after that, Doc; but, other than more e-mails that I have to erase from calling up this acct. from a computer in lieu of from the unit itself, I don't really mind one way or the other, but isn't that getting into the GRAY area?! Steve ----------------------------- Dear Peela, As always, I love your two cents worth ) As this topic was opened by comparing it to the failures of the medical profession which is " On Topic " I have allowed the threads to continue per list policy. Therefore unless list members find it boring or aborent we can continue it for a while. Anyone wishing to drop the subject should voice their opinion and we'll take it from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2001 Report Share Posted August 2, 2001 Dear Peela, As always, I love your two cents worth ) As this topic was opened by comparing it to the failures of the medical profession which is "On Topic" I have allowed the threads to continue per list policy. Therefore unless list members find it boring or aborent we can continue it for a while. Anyone wishing to drop the subject should voice their opinion and we'll take it from there. Being a member of the NRA here in the states and an advocate of the Second Ammendment, I have followed this ongoing global debate for several years albeit haphazardly. From my understanding, according to statistics, the crime rate in Australia rose dramatically after the Gun Ban was imposed and all guns had been collected up. Since then, supposedly the crime rate in the big Australian cities has risen exponentially. This of course could be "American" PR to some degree but you yourself could research this by talking to a few of your big city cops as they are usually quite outspoken about it. They would probably lay it on the line for you. I have not run into one cop here in the US that would like to see the 2nd go by the boards. On the contrary, my brother-in-law who is a cop in the San Francisco area told me that every member on his force all agree that their job would be nigh impossible if the US were to adopt the banning of guns. It would be an interesting research project in ANZO to document the violent gun crimes there to see what the criminals themselves would have to say in regards citizen owning guns and whether or not it would be a deterrent. It would be an interesting survey. A survey of criminals such as this was done in Britain after their ban, and the overall consensus was that the criminals were delighted with this advantage it gave them. The logic is not just to own a gun because the criminals have them, but the right to defend oneself regardless of circumstances. That may be a subtle difference but it is a difference. You might have to do a thorough study of American history to fully understand the American passion for freedom and willingness to "fight back". American freedoms were hard won from the British who at the time were extremely suppressive. No doubt you have seen the movie "The Patriot" starring that awesome Aussie actor Mel Gibson. Believe it or not the depictions of depravity in that film were tame compared to the reality. The British heinously tortured to death many Americans and this was not shown in the film except in the one scene where the church was burned. This was a common occurance in those times. Out of the original founding fathers, more than 1/3 lost everything they had, and yet they retained their dignity and their sanity to such a degree that they produced the Declaration of Independence, the American Constitution, and the Bill of Rights which are three of the most awesome documents and writings ever produced. I can't read them without a tear coming to my eye. It's not that Americans or the nation itself are perfect - far from it. The US has been known to sometimes bully smaller nations (some who have nukes {Arabic} and others who don't) and your analogy to nuclear weapons may have some merritt. But your analogy compares two weapons which have a very big difference and in my mind makes your argument moot. That difference is that there are many defences which one can utilize against an adversary who is attacking with a gun and one's destruction depending on his own defences is not a certainty. There is no known defence against nuclear weapons and you have the potential of the complete anhilation of all mankind. They are not really comparable. And I'm a Canadian (where handguns are all but banned), who has adopted the US as his country of choice. I love it here. As usual, you keep me on my toes ;o) Much love, Doc Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.505-772-5889Dr.IanShillington I gotta put in my 2 cents worth here. I live in Australia where most people do not own guns. I have never seen a gun, nor do I know of any one who has been shot by one, or know anyone who owns one. Yes, criminals can get them, and so can ordinary people under strict conditions, but it is not common like in America. The logic that I must have a gun because the criminals have them ( and most dont), is warped from my perspective , coming from a country where guns are not common. Its like saying every country should develop nuclear weapons to defend themselves, and keep developing them- just because one country has them. Doesnt add up. I am glad I live in a country where we dont have guns mostly, and i think most people in Australia are- we look at America with some incredulity, and are grateful to live in a country where we dont feel we 'need' guns. OT, but it came up.lovepeela Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2001 Report Share Posted August 3, 2001 Hi Ian, Although the following may be true- I dont know and it hasnt been played out in the press here at all..... >From my > understanding, according to > statistics, the crime rate in Australia rose > dramatically after the Gun > Ban was imposed and all guns had been collected up. > Since then, > supposedly the crime rate in the big Australian > cities has risen > exponentially I dont actually think it is true (or we would have heard about it (though I will take up your offer and ask ). However, overall, our crime rate is I am sure far less than the US, though perhaps that is our PR. It sure seems less, and far less violent, overall. It sounds scary over there from here, and feels like a relatively safe haven here. I have been to the US and we were broken into on our second night, in our hotel, on the 5th floor. (LA). I can understand from the context of American history, where you are coming from. We dont have that- we just came here and wiped out as many of the locals (aborigines) as we could get away with. Different history, different mindset. I may be idealistic, but who is going to put down their guns first? It has to stop somewhere. By the way, our police have guns, the farmers have licenced guns, the army have guns. A few criminals have guns, but its not so common- most crimes are petty. Most people never had guns anyway. Anyway, I understand your perspective, I am just glad I live somewhere we dont all feel we have to defend ourselves with guns. We have a democracy too, we have plenty of freedoms- we dont need to defend those freedoms with personal gun ownership. That would be a step backwards I reckon. love peela ===== May the long time sun shine upon you, all love suround you, and the pure light within you guide your way on. Traditional Blessing Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger http://phonecard./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2001 Report Share Posted August 3, 2001 BTW Ian, I find it amusing sometimes to hear what Americans are told about Australians. I was on a list once where a reputable therapist blatently judged me and all Australians as being unconscious (compared to Americans) and insensitive to 'spiritual' energies. She had somehow picked that belief up. After I pointed out this was racism, she realised what she had done and apologised. There are all types of people in all societies. We are a small population of 20 million or so, which makes it impossible to compare us to America. Australians generally feel lucky to be Australian, but perhaps Americans feel the same. How this relates to herbs I dont know, but there you go. The world is becoming one, and we are all learning from each others cultures, herbs, healing, and all. This list is part of that sharing and learning. love peela ===== May the long time sun shine upon you, all love suround you, and the pure light within you guide your way on. Traditional Blessing Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger http://phonecard./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 Looks more like the "red neck" area to me (LOL ;o) Love, Doc Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.505-772-5889Dr.IanShillington I'M READY TO GO KICK SOME COMMIE KIESTERS after that, Doc; but, other than more e-mails that I have to erase from calling up this acct. from a computer in lieu of from the unit itself, I don't really mind one way or the other, but isn't that getting into the GRAY area?!Steve-----------------------------Dear Peela,As always, I love your two cents worth ) As this topic was opened by comparing it to the failures of the medical profession which is "On Topic" I have allowed the threads to continue per list policy. Therefore unless list members find it boring or aborent we can continue it for a while. Anyone wishing to drop the subject should voice their opinion and we'll take it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 Most definitely, and the internet has hastened this process. Most Americans feel the same. Love, Doc Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.505-772-5889Dr.IanShillington Australians generally feel lucky to be Australian, but perhaps Americans feel the same.How this relates to herbs I dont know, but there you go. The world is becoming one, and we are all learning from each others cultures, herbs, healing, and all.This list is part of that sharing and learning.lovepeela Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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