mixing herbs

November 26, 2000

I'm so glad that Penny and Cheroo jumped on this one and high lighted the "outpoints" in the attached story posted by Vicki. You guys did an excellent job in spotting the "wrong think". This is in no way a criticism of you Vicki for you were sold a bill of goods and I appreciate the opportunity to have the correct data brought to the forefront.

My bet is that the story was generated by some Pharmaceutical employee or AMA PR artist.

Why is some person who is taking all those herbs especially Garlic and who has "thinned blood", getting a heart operation in the first place. 97% of bypass surgery is due to clogged arteries. This sounds like an oxymoron to me.

The biggest disservice that this article promulgates is the concept to "BE CAREFUL OF HERBS AND HERBAL PREPARATIONS".

Those of us who have studied the works of Schulze, Christopher, Hoxey, Thompson, etc, or who have had a fair amount of hands-on herbal study under clinical or practical conditions know that there are very few herbs that one needs to be "Careful" of. There are a handful of herbs (such as Poke Root and Chaparral to name a couple), that need to be used on a gradient approach and under observation, and Echinacea should only be taken for certain periods and then taken a break from, however to try to place everyone in "Fear" by indicating that one can mix a dangerous concoction using most of the common herbal remedies is pure poppycock (polite for bullshit).

I have observed the following in my own practise: If a person takes too much of a common (or uncommon for that matter) herbal remedy, the usual result is that the patient will throw up. Furthermore, this puking can be very beneficial and can actually speed recovery. Both Doc Schulze and Doc Christopher noted the same observation and Doc Thompson actually had a "Purge - Puke" technique designed to produce this effect on purpose.

I personally have taken very large doses of most herbs and have witnessed many others taking these same huge doses and have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER seen anyone hurt from taking large quantities of herbal preparations. And some of my students and clients have come up with some pretty wierd combinations. I try them all.

Now, before someone takes what I've just said and goes and pours a full 2 oz bottle of Lobelia down their 98 year old grandmother's throat when there is barely a wisp of breath on the mirror, lets use our common sense here. Yes, get yourself educated and learn the proper techniques, but not from the viewpoint of "Fear" to take a step forward. I've never seen or heard of anyone being killed from taking too much of an herbal preparations. I have seen people NOT get well from taking too few or lousy quality herbal preparations or from doing nothing. Never do nothing. Grabbing a hot herbal preparation in an emergency is better than doing nothing. The best is Cayenne. I always carry a bottle of Cayenne Tincture in my pocket. Always.

Hope this helps.

Love

Ian

Ian Shillington N.D.Dr.IanShillington

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Mrs.Giggles

herbal_remedies

Friday, November 24, 2000 6:41 PM

[herbal remedies] mixing herbs

This is something that was passed on from another list. I am sure most ofus have seen it already but it makes a good point. Herbs are a wonderfuland healthy way to treat illness, but it is not a "game". Research and careneed to be exercised. That is why groups like ours is so important but itis just as important for us to research on our own.Love,VickiOn September 27th, 2000, ten days after my birthday, my father passed away.His death was by his own hands, but he didn't know it. Two years ago, myfather decided to do all he could to be in the best of health, so as toextend his life. He read magazines that told about various herbs being usedfor different purposes. Vitamin E for healing. Thyme for upset stomach. Sawpalmetto for prostate health. Ginkgo for better memory. Ginseng's anti-agingeffects. Fight allergies with garlic. And so on. I don't even know how many herbs he was taking. But, on his physical of a year and a half ago, the doctor said he couldn't find a single thing wrongwith him. Pretty amazing for a man in his late 70's. Taking the herbs musthave been the right thing to do. In his case, it was the wrong thing. It waswrong because he self-prescribed the dosage he thought he should take. Itwas wrong because he wasn't aware of all of the uses for each herb. It waswrong, because he didn't tell his doctor about the herbs he was taking. Itwas a fatal mistake. Not only was the ginkgo good for improving memory, itwas good for thinning the blood. Yes, garlic does retard inflammatoryreactions in allergens. It also thins the blood. Thyme soothes an upset stomach. It thins the blood as well. The doctor didn't know about the herbs.My father didn't tell him, apparently thinking, "They're just herbs." Heneeded open heart surgery. A double by-pass and valve replacement. It shouldhave been routine surgery. The doctor had some trouble with getting myfather's blood to clot during the surgery. An hour after surgery, they hadto rush him back to the O.R. and open him up again, because he was bleedingtoo much. An hour and a half after the second surgery, he was dead. Myfather wanted to play with grand kids and great-grand kids. He wanted to seethe adults his children grew in to. He wanted to walk beside my mother asthey enjoyed their "golden years". He didn't want to live forever. He justwanted to live as long as he possibly could. With his family's record oflongevity, he should have lived another ten years, maybe 15. He lived two.Just because they're herbs, doesn't mean they're safe to take in anuninformed way. Herbs are medicine. Herbs are the basis for prescriptionmedications. They aren't to be taken without doing a lot researchbeforehand. You have to know what each one can be used for. Just as you haveto be careful when mixing prescription drugs, you must be just as careful ofmixing herbs. You have to know the amount of herb that can be safely takenand over what period of time. Taken any other way, herbs can not only beharmful. They can kill. Please, pass this information along to everyone youcan. Let people know, they aren't "just herbs". Thank you. Federal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and toprescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian ShillingtonDoctor of Naturopathyian_shillington

November 29, 2000

See answers below.

Ian

Ian Shillington N.D.Dr.IanShillington

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Michael Edmonds

herbal remedies

Monday, November 27, 2000 12:18 AM

Re: [herbal remedies] mixing herbs

Ian,When you say that almost all herbs are safe, do you mean in their unconcentrated/natural forms such as teas, tinctures etc. I'm asking because I've heard of people doing strange things with essential oils and suffering for it.

Most definitely am I talking about the natural form of the whole herb. Essential oils are distillates which are only one ingredient of an herb or flower. Aspirin was originally the distilled form of an ingredient found in White Willow Bark until it was learned how to manufacture that one ingredient synthetically. I use White Willow Bark (with all ingredients in tact) in several of my formulae. I wouldn't touch an aspirin with a ten foot pole.Also with these large doses that people including yourself have taken - are all of these people in good health beforehand? - i.e. their bodies have been cleansed first with liver etc functioning well. I'm asking because I was wondering if someone with limited liver function for example might react badly to the same thing?

Obviously, I would get all the data from a patient before I'd recommend anything. I think I mentioned in a previous post that I was not inviting anyone to dose their 98 year old grandmother (with a bare whisper of breath on the mirror) to take a full two ounce shot of Lobelia or any other strong herb. You've missed the point (or are you playing the Devil's advocate here?), I am recommending to people to not be timid about herbs especially if they are already in the process of learning about them or have access to a list like ours where they can get the tricky questions answered. It is always better to do something (herbally) than to just sit by and watch someone die or suffer needlessly. To finish answering your above question, I had a female patient (280 lbs and in terrible condition) 2 years ago who was having 2 to 3 major gallbladder attacks a day which would almost lay her out flat. Both of her surgeons recommended she have her gallbladder removed immediately and scared the hell out of her to boot. A mutual friend told her about me and I immediately sent her the complete package for handling the Liver/Gallbladder. I crammed Doc Schulze's / Christopher's 3 week program plus a few goodies of my own, into 9 days and was double dosing her on everything from the get go and was giving her 2 to 3 times the recommended dosage on all herbal remedies. Within 3 days she was over the hump and was passing not only large gallstones but shrimp like parasites the size of your thumbnail. At the end of day 9 she told me she'd never felt better in her entire life. Her medical doctor retested her (not recommended by me) and was flabbergasted to find not one single gallstone in her body. I received a note from her a couple of months ago and she's still as healthy as can be. She also made those permanent lifestyle changes that keep her healthy. So the answer to your question is "yes", I've given humongous dosages of some very potent herbs to some very unhealthy people. When to go lightly is of course something one learns with experience, but not at the expense of bowing to timidity. To date, I've never seen or heard of anyone being killed by herbs verified by actual unbiased inspection not some black PR by some Medico or Pharmaceutical flunky.While I agree that most common herbs are safe I wonder if you are taking into account how stupid people can be with plants - especially those using them for thrills rather than therapeutically - e.g. datura, opium, nutmeg, foxglove?

Now you're being ludicrous. Most people desiring to learn about herbs, especially the people on this list, are not stupid nor are they looking for cheap "thrills". I have no sympathy for street drug users or dealers. Why should I feel sorry for a person suffering from a self inflicted wound? And how on earth can you compare nutmeg & foxglove with opium & datura. Foxglove comes from the figwort family and helps to stimulate the heart among other benefits. Nutmeg is the aromatic seed from the East Indian tree (Myristica fragrans) which I adore in my eggnog. Opium is a narcotic and Datura belongs to the Deadly Nightshade family. Anyone looking for cheap thrills does not belong on this list and if they get the idea that they should smoke Nutmeg, they'll get that idea on their own not because I tell people to go for the gusto and use their herbs prolifically. Sheesh Michael, give me a break.Also I wonder if incorrect identification of herbs, when picking them oneself is somewhere where ignorance could be dangerous?These are problems that I can't imagine anyone on this group having, but I have met some pretty "daft" people in my time :-)

If you are referring to mushrooms and a few other herbs, yes, I agree, one should learn a few basics and study a few books before one attempts to go mushrooming. For the most part, the herbs we are talking about on this list are pretty easy to distinguish and usually the poster of an article on an exotic herb will usually give a warning if there is a lookalike to watch out for. I don't think we need to split hairs here, after all I am promoting people to "study and learn" from many good sources. Just because I promote large quantities of herbal remedies and to go for the "gusto" does not mean I am promoting people to remain ignorant. On the contrary, I recommend that people take full responsibility for the health of themselves and their family and educate themselves as much as possible.Also what is your definition of "herb"? I find different sources have different meanings.

According to Websters: 1. Any seed plant whose stem withers away to the ground after each season's growth, as distinguished from a tree or shrub whose woody stem lives from year to year. 2. Any plant used as a medicine, seasoning, or flavoring: Mint, Thyme, Basil, Echinacea, Motherwort, Lobelia are all herbs. 3. Vegetative grass.

The dictionary definition is good enough for me.Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm just trying to get this safety thing clear in my head.

If you are truly concerned about the safety of the general public, I suggest you go visit a few hospitals and start a protest movement. More people have died at the hands of "Doctors" from iatrogenic causes then have ever been discomforted by an herb or natural method regardless of how strong a dosage or whether or not the right herb was used.

If my answers seem a little harsh or sarcastic, it is because I feel you are being the same and I answer in kind. Personally, I just don't think there are as many "daft" people out there as you do.

Ian