Soliciting Opinions and Recommendations

[Guest guest]

Hello all. I have never fasted before. I joined this group after

watching the discussions for a while and reading Dr.

Fuhrman's " Fasting and Eating for Health " and a few other fasting

resources. I want to explore fasting to see if it can make a

positive difference in the quality of my life. Yet I find myself

confused by the abundance of (contradictory) information regarding

the " best " way to fast. I understand that we are all " experiments

of one " and that what works best for one might not be best for

someone else. Likewise, I expect that it will take some

experimenting to find a fast that " fits " me. Still, I'd like to

have some reassurance that however I start I'll realize some

reasonable benefits. (Apologies for all the " first person "

narration here, I'll get to the point.)

 

This group seems to have a fairly broad spectrum of fasting

practices, and I'm certainly not soliciting a " consensus "

or " official " position from this group. From what I've seen I

expect some disagreement. I'm just soliciting your opinions on

several questions to help give me some direction at the start:

 

1. How long should my first fast be? Dr. Fuhrman suggests that

there isn't a whole lot of benefit to fasts of less than a week's

time, but other resources suggest that 24 or 48 hours is a more

appropriate starting point.

 

2. Is there any real benefit to shorter fasts of 24 to 48 hours? If

I am going to go through the discomforts of caffiene withdrawal and

beginning detoxification I'd like to know there's some additional

benefit to short fasts that makes the discomfort worth it.

 

3. Dr. Fuhrman writes a lot about the benefits of ketosis, but I

had previously understood this to be an unhealth and potentially

dangerous metabolic state. Doesn't ketosis create a lot of toxic

byproducts? If so, is ketosis counterproductive to a detoxification

fast? If not, why is fasting-induced ketosis preferable to Atkins-

induced ketosis?

 

4. Water fasting or juice fasting? Juice fasting seems to run a

broad spectrum. Why would juice fasting be preferable to water

fasting? Some juice fasts seem to permit a daily intake of upward

of 1000 kcal. What is the benefit of reducing caloric intake

without eliminating it? Does consuming calories while avoiding

fiber interfere with digestion more than assist it? Please note, I

don't intend to spark a semantic argument about whether juice

fasting qualifies as fasting.

 

5. How often? One 24-hour fast weekly? One seven-day fast each

season? One 30-day fast every 5 years? Bear in mind I'm looking

for a good place to start. A day a week seems a reasonable starting

point, but I don't want to be a " weekend warrior " if it's too short

a fast to provide any benefits.

 

6. Last one, I promise. I'm not expecting to reach Nirvana by

fasting alone, but is fasting mostly a " physical " relationship? The

materials I've read spend a lot of time describing the physical

benefits of fasting, but not so much on the mental, emotional or

spiritual benefits. Again, I'm not intending to spark a debate

about spiritual traditions. Nor do I want to suggest that the

physical benefits aren't sufficient in themselves. I'm just

interested in hearing experiences and recommendations from those who

think there are non-physical benefits to fasting (as well of those

who say that it's primarily a " physical thing " ).

 

Thanks much for bearing with me through this long message. Any

insights or thoughts you might want to share would be much

appreciated.

[Guest guest]

The body has three days of free carbs, the liver and organs another two. You do not start to do the majority of detoxing until after the fifth day. I recommend you start with a 10 day fast. If you have no problems, go for an extended fast in a month. Water fasting is a better detox, weight loss, etc. then juice fasting. You can always add some juice to a water fast if you find you need to slow the process. Or you can transition to the master cleanse and back to water.

 

What is your purpose of your fast?

 

There are differing opinions on short fasting. I believe our bodies are running still on hunter, gatherer design. We were meant to story body fast during times of feast, but the next meal could be days later and we do fine if we skip a few days foods if we have some fat reserves. Most of modern man never has famine times, we have a lifetime of feast times. As such, we are as much a product of excessive foods as malnourishment.

 

Ketosis does not create toxins. Losing weight will by definition lose cell toxins into the blood for elimination. Toxins are stored in the cells. There is nothing wrong with ketosis, it is the body's way of utilizing the fats for fuel to keep us from dieing if we don't get our next few meals on time.

 

Reduced calorie has been proven to extend longevity in animals. Good reading. http://www.mercola.com/2001/jul/14/insulin.htm

 

The only problem I have had is dizziness when I stand up. That is easily eliminated by taking three deep breaths before getting up. You will find boredom the biggest problem. Most people including myself have more energy on a water fast then when eating.

 

The only potential problem I know of is losing too much potassium. Juicing limes or lemons and adding to the water during a fast should prevent that. Limes are very high in potassium.

 

Water fasting allows the body to repair organs, an Atkins's diet does not.

 

I have lost over thirty lbs on an extended water fast. I will report on my progress with diabetes and hbp later.

 

A good fasting link. http://www.freedomyou.com/level%202/Fasting%20Page%20Guide.htm

 

How often you fast depend on each individuals needs. If you need to reverse severe health issues then you may need an extended fast twice a year for two or three years before the issue is resolved. You may not be able to do it in one session. This pertains to weight issues too.

 

 

Best Regards, Robert & Chloey Ratliff La Chorrera De Panama

<*> <*>

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of sisyphus_2005Tuesday, February 07, 2006 8:47 AM Subject: Soliciting Opinions and RecommendationsThis group seems to have a fairly broad spectrum of fasting practices, and I'm certainly not soliciting a "consensus" or "official" position from this group. From what I've seen I expect some disagreement. I'm just soliciting your opinions on several questions to help give me some direction at the start:1. How long should my first fast be? Dr. Fuhrman suggests that there isn't a whole lot of benefit to fasts of less than a week's time, but other resources suggest that 24 or 48 hours is a more appropriate starting point.2. Is there any real benefit to shorter fasts of 24 to 48 hours? If I am going to go through the discomforts of caffiene withdrawal and beginning detoxification I'd like to know there's some additional benefit to short fasts that makes the discomfort worth it.3. Dr. Fuhrman writes a lot about the benefits of ketosis, but I had previously understood this to be an unhealth and potentially dangerous metabolic state. Doesn't ketosis create a lot of toxic byproducts? If so, is ketosis counterproductive to a detoxification fast? If not, why is fasting-induced ketosis preferable to Atkins-induced ketosis?4. Water fasting or juice fasting? Juice fasting seems to run a broad spectrum. Why would juice fasting be preferable to water fasting? Some juice fasts seem to permit a daily intake of upward of 1000 kcal. What is the benefit of reducing caloric intake without eliminating it? Does consuming calories while avoiding fiber interfere with digestion more than assist it? Please note, I don't intend to spark a semantic argument about whether juice fasting qualifies as fasting.5. How often? One 24-hour fast weekly? One seven-day fast each season? One 30-day fast every 5 years? Bear in mind I'm looking for a good place to start. A day a week seems a reasonable starting point, but I don't want to be a "weekend warrior" if it's too short a fast to provide any benefits.6. Last one, I promise. I'm not expecting to reach Nirvana by fasting alone, but is fasting mostly a "physical" relationship? The materials I've read spend a lot of time describing the physical benefits of fasting, but not so much on the mental, emotional or spiritual benefits. Again, I'm not intending to spark a debate about spiritual traditions. Nor do I want to suggest that the physical benefits aren't sufficient in themselves. I'm just interested in hearing experiences and recommendations from those who think there are non-physical benefits to fasting (as well of those who say that it's primarily a "physical thing").Thanks much for bearing with me through this long message. Any insights or thoughts you might want to share would be much appreciated.

[Guest guest]

Thanks much for the reply and helpful thoughts. My immedialte goal is

to " clean out " (i.e. detox) my body. The information I have read

about fasting as improving mental attitude is also a significant

attraction. Lastly, I'd like to lose some weight (10-15 pounds).

 

My concern with starting with a 10-day fast is that it would be

depressing for me to start with a noble goal like that and then not

make it. I understand that breaking the fast would be my choice, but

I think that I personally would be more inclined to stick with it if I

built up to a 10-day fast. There's certainly nothing wrong with

starting small, is there?

 

I'm not sure I understand your point that " [k]etosis does not create

toxins. " The National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney

Diseases of the National Institute of Health and the University of

Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas report that ketosis

creates a build up of uric acid that can lead to gout, kidney stones

and bone loss.

 

http://win.niddk.nih.gov/publications/PDFs/Myths.pdf

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2003-06-06/cols_health.html

 

Admittedly, both of those findings discuss ketosis in the context of

Atkins-style high protein diets, not fasting-induced ketosis. Is

there a difference between the two states?

 

, " ROBERT RATLIFF "

<bratliff wrote:

>

> The body has three days of free carbs, the liver and organs another two.

> You do not start to do the majority of detoxing until after the fifth

> day. I recommend you start with a 10 day fast. If you have no problems,

> go for an extended fast in a month. Water fasting is a better detox,

> weight loss, etc. then juice fasting. You can always add some juice to a

> water fast if you find you need to slow the process. Or you can

> transition to the master cleanse and back to water.

>

> What is your purpose of your fast?

>

> There are differing opinions on short fasting. I believe our bodies are

> running still on hunter, gatherer design. We were meant to story body

> fast during times of feast, but the next meal could be days later and we

> do fine if we skip a few days foods if we have some fat reserves. Most

> of modern man never has famine times, we have a lifetime of feast

> times. As such, we are as much a product of excessive foods as

> malnourishment.

>

> Ketosis does not create toxins. Losing weight will by definition lose

> cell toxins into the blood for elimination. Toxins are stored in the

> cells. There is nothing wrong with ketosis, it is the body's way of

> utilizing the fats for fuel to keep us from dieing if we don't get our

> next few meals on time.

>

> Reduced calorie has been proven to extend longevity in animals. Good

> reading. http://www.mercola.com/2001/jul/14/insulin.htm

>

> The only problem I have had is dizziness when I stand up. That is easily

> eliminated by taking three deep breaths before getting up. You will find

> boredom the biggest problem. Most people including myself have more

> energy on a water fast then when eating.

>

> The only potential problem I know of is losing too much potassium.

> Juicing limes or lemons and adding to the water during a fast should

> prevent that. Limes are very high in potassium.

>

> Water fasting allows the body to repair organs, an Atkins's diet does

> not.

>

> I have lost over thirty lbs on an extended water fast. I will report on

> my progress with diabetes and hbp later.

>

> A good fasting link.

> http://www.freedomyou.com/level%202/Fasting%20Page%20Guide.htm

>

> How often you fast depend on each individuals needs. If you need to

> reverse severe health issues then you may need an extended fast twice a

> year for two or three years before the issue is resolved. You may not

> be able to do it in one session. This pertains to weight issues too.

>

>

> Best Regards, Robert & Chloey Ratliff La Chorrera De Panama

>

>

>

>

> On Behalf Of sisyphus_2005

> Tuesday, February 07, 2006 8:47 AM

>

> Soliciting Opinions and Recommendations

>

>

>

> This group seems to have a fairly broad spectrum of fasting

> practices, and I'm certainly not soliciting a " consensus "

> or " official " position from this group. From what I've seen I

> expect some disagreement. I'm just soliciting your opinions on

> several questions to help give me some direction at the start:

>

> 1. How long should my first fast be? Dr. Fuhrman suggests that

> there isn't a whole lot of benefit to fasts of less than a week's

> time, but other resources suggest that 24 or 48 hours is a more

> appropriate starting point.

>

> 2. Is there any real benefit to shorter fasts of 24 to 48 hours? If

> I am going to go through the discomforts of caffiene withdrawal and

> beginning detoxification I'd like to know there's some additional

> benefit to short fasts that makes the discomfort worth it.

>

> 3. Dr. Fuhrman writes a lot about the benefits of ketosis, but I

> had previously understood this to be an unhealth and potentially

> dangerous metabolic state. Doesn't ketosis create a lot of toxic

> byproducts? If so, is ketosis counterproductive to a detoxification

> fast? If not, why is fasting-induced ketosis preferable to Atkins-

> induced ketosis?

>

> 4. Water fasting or juice fasting? Juice fasting seems to run a

> broad spectrum. Why would juice fasting be preferable to water

> fasting? Some juice fasts seem to permit a daily intake of upward

> of 1000 kcal. What is the benefit of reducing caloric intake

> without eliminating it? Does consuming calories while avoiding

> fiber interfere with digestion more than assist it? Please note, I

> don't intend to spark a semantic argument about whether juice

> fasting qualifies as fasting.

>

> 5. How often? One 24-hour fast weekly? One seven-day fast each

> season? One 30-day fast every 5 years? Bear in mind I'm looking

> for a good place to start. A day a week seems a reasonable starting

> point, but I don't want to be a " weekend warrior " if it's too short

> a fast to provide any benefits.

>

> 6. Last one, I promise. I'm not expecting to reach Nirvana by

> fasting alone, but is fasting mostly a " physical " relationship? The

> materials I've read spend a lot of time describing the physical

> benefits of fasting, but not so much on the mental, emotional or

> spiritual benefits. Again, I'm not intending to spark a debate

> about spiritual traditions. Nor do I want to suggest that the

> physical benefits aren't sufficient in themselves. I'm just

> interested in hearing experiences and recommendations from those who

> think there are non-physical benefits to fasting (as well of those

> who say that it's primarily a " physical thing " ).

>

> Thanks much for bearing with me through this long message. Any

> insights or thoughts you might want to share would be much

> appreciated.

 

[Guest guest]

There is another underlying cause of the problem causing ketosis. Ketosis in itself is not a problem.

 

Start and ending a fast is your personal choice. Do it any way you feel comfortable.

 

You can find people talking against ANYTHING, fasting which way to eat, ketosis, etc. You have to decide which is correct.

Any subject you research you will find someone for and someone against.

 

Besides we are talking apples and oranges. Atkins keep you permanently in the edge of ketosis. Fasting ketosis goes away as soon as you start eating which means temporary ketosis. You can't fast without ketosis. Ketosis is a survival mechanism. We would not be on earth if it was not for being able to burn fat as energy. Remember science is A LEARNING PROCESS. They do not have all the answers, I fear not even a few. Look at the rapid rate of increase in diabetes. It epidemic in the US. This is what we get from following the AMA pyramid.

 

 

Best Regards, Robert & Chloey Ratliff La Chorrera De Panama

<*> <*>

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of sisyphus_2005Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:10 AM Subject: Re: Soliciting Opinions and RecommendationsThanks much for the reply and helpful thoughts. My immedialte goal isto "clean out" (i.e. detox) my body. The information I have readabout fasting as improving mental attitude is also a significantattraction. Lastly, I'd like to lose some weight (10-15 pounds).My concern with starting with a 10-day fast is that it would bedepressing for me to start with a noble goal like that and then notmake it. I understand that breaking the fast would be my choice, butI think that I personally would be more inclined to stick with it if Ibuilt up to a 10-day fast. There's certainly nothing wrong withstarting small, is there?I'm not sure I understand your point that "[k]etosis does not createtoxins." The National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and KidneyDiseases of the National Institute of Health and the University ofTexas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas report that ketosiscreates a build up of uric acid that can lead to gout, kidney stonesand bone loss.http://win.niddk.nih.gov/publications/PDFs/Myths.pdfhttp://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2003-06-06/cols_health.htmlAdmittedly, both of those findings discuss ketosis in the context ofAtkins-style high protein diets, not fasting-induced ketosis. Isthere a difference between the two states?

[Guest guest]

For what it´s worth I´ll share with you advice given to me from a yoga teacher with 20 years experience of fasting. I´m in same shoes as you, have never tried to fast for any period of time but like the thought of detoxing etc.

 

What she said is that in her experience with her students who fast twice every year, spring and autumn, is that vegetable juice fasting is the way to go. She recomends beginning with what is called mono diet, to eat only vegitables for some time and slowly introduce vegetable juice and don´t think to much about it untill you suddenly notice that ... hey I´ve only had vegetable juice today. She recomends eating the same group of vegetables for each meal (be they as many as the are per day untill you´ve started fasting), the groups of vegetables being; root vegetables, blade vegetables and fruit vegetables. In other words, vegetables who are root, blade or fruit of each plant.

Taking enemas is important for any type of fast that take longer than a few days (2-4), when taking a stool (as it is also called) it is best to use the type of equipment that you hang on up on the wall and let gravity do the work of pushing while you relax lying in your bed. When doing this, start by lying on your left side untill you have to go to the toilet, then put some more boiled (and cooled down to room temperature) water and ly on your left side again and then your back untill you have to go. Third and last time you use eaven more water and start on your left side, then your back and then your right side. This is importan on account of how your colon is situated inside your body, if you are left handed there is a small chance that it is different in you and you need to start on your right side.

Breaking the fast is as important as the fast itself, start by eating very, very, very little and slowly increase it. The first day should be something like half a banana, if you tolerate bananas well i.e. And awoid nightshade vegetables, tomatos, potatos and more.

I personally am still planning my grocery list for the vegetable food before I perhaps do a vegetable juice fast. If you can use this more power to me from the universal goodness.

 

Take care, Thorsisyphus_2005 <sisyphus_2005 Sent: 7. febrúar 2006 13:47:10 Soliciting Opinions and RecommendationsHello all. I have never fasted before. I joined this group after watching the discussions for a while and reading Dr. Fuhrman's "Fasting and Eating for Health" and a few other fasting resources. I want to explore fasting to see if it can make a positive difference in the quality of my life. Yet I find myself confused by the abundance of (contradictory) information regarding the "best" way to fast. I understand that we are all "experiments of one" and that what works best for one might not be best for someone else. Likewise, I expect that it will take some experimenting to find a fast that "fits" me. Still, I'd like to have

some reassurance that however I start I'll realize some reasonable benefits. (Apologies for all the "first person" narration here, I'll get to the point.)This group seems to have a fairly broad spectrum of fasting practices, and I'm certainly not soliciting a "consensus" or "official" position from this group. From what I've seen I expect some disagreement. I'm just soliciting your opinions on several questions to help give me some direction at the start:1. How long should my first fast be? Dr. Fuhrman suggests that there isn't a whole lot of benefit to fasts of less than a week's time, but other resources suggest that 24 or 48 hours is a more appropriate starting point.2. Is there any real benefit to shorter fasts of 24 to 48 hours? If I am going to go through the discomforts of caffiene withdrawal and beginning detoxification I'd like to know there's some additional

benefit to short fasts that makes the discomfort worth it.3. Dr. Fuhrman writes a lot about the benefits of ketosis, but I had previously understood this to be an unhealth and potentially dangerous metabolic state. Doesn't ketosis create a lot of toxic byproducts? If so, is ketosis counterproductive to a detoxification fast? If not, why is fasting-induced ketosis preferable to Atkins-induced ketosis?4. Water fasting or juice fasting? Juice fasting seems to run a broad spectrum. Why would juice fasting be preferable to water fasting? Some juice fasts seem to permit a daily intake of upward of 1000 kcal. What is the benefit of reducing caloric intake without eliminating it? Does consuming calories while avoiding fiber interfere with digestion more than assist it? Please note, I don't intend to spark a semantic argument about whether juice

fasting qualifies as fasting.5. How often? One 24-hour fast weekly? One seven-day fast each season? One 30-day fast every 5 years? Bear in mind I'm looking for a good place to start. A day a week seems a reasonable starting point, but I don't want to be a "weekend warrior" if it's too short a fast to provide any benefits.6. Last one, I promise. I'm not expecting to reach Nirvana by fasting alone, but is fasting mostly a "physical" relationship? The materials I've read spend a lot of time describing the physical benefits of fasting, but not so much on the mental, emotional or spiritual benefits. Again, I'm not intending to spark a debate about spiritual traditions. Nor do I want to suggest that the physical benefits aren't sufficient in themselves. I'm just interested in hearing experiences and recommendations from those who think there are

non-physical benefits to fasting (as well of those who say that it's primarily a "physical thing").Thanks much for bearing with me through this long message. Any insights or thoughts you might want to share would be much appreciated.

[Guest guest]

Forgot to add, how long a fast lasts is so individual that no answer on how long an individual fast should last is accurate.

 

Thorsisyphus_2005 <sisyphus_2005 Sent: 7. febrúar 2006 16:09:39 Re: Soliciting Opinions and RecommendationsThanks much for the reply and helpful thoughts. My immedialte goal isto "clean out" (i.e. detox) my body. The information I have readabout fasting as improving mental attitude is also a significantattraction. Lastly, I'd like to lose some weight (10-15 pounds).My concern with starting with a 10-day fast is that it would bedepressing for me to start with a noble goal like that and then notmake it. I understand that breaking the fast would be my choice, butI think that I personally would be more inclined to stick with it if Ibuilt up to a 10-day fast. There's certainly nothing wrong withstarting small, is there?I'm not sure I

understand your point that "[k]etosis does not createtoxins." The National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and KidneyDiseases of the National Institute of Health and the University ofTexas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas report that ketosiscreates a build up of uric acid that can lead to gout, kidney stonesand bone loss.http://win.niddk.nih.gov/publications/PDFs/Myths.pdfhttp://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2003-06-06/cols_health.htmlAdmittedly, both of those findings discuss ketosis in the context ofAtkins-style high protein diets, not fasting-induced ketosis. Isthere a difference between the two states? , "ROBERT

RATLIFF"<bratliff wrote:>> The body has three days of free carbs, the liver and organs another two.> You do not start to do the majority of detoxing until after the fifth> day. I recommend you start with a 10 day fast. If you have no problems,> go for an extended fast in a month. Water fasting is a better detox,> weight loss, etc. then juice fasting. You can always add some juice to a> water fast if you find you need to slow the process. Or you can> transition to the master cleanse and back to water. > > What is your purpose of your fast? > > There are differing opinions on short fasting. I believe our bodies are> running still on hunter, gatherer design. We were meant to story body> fast during times of feast, but the next meal could be days later and we> do fine if we skip a few days foods if we have some fat reserves. Most> of modern

man never has famine times, we have a lifetime of feast> times. As such, we are as much a product of excessive foods as> malnourishment. > > Ketosis does not create toxins. Losing weight will by definition lose> cell toxins into the blood for elimination. Toxins are stored in the> cells. There is nothing wrong with ketosis, it is the body's way of> utilizing the fats for fuel to keep us from dieing if we don't get our> next few meals on time.> > Reduced calorie has been proven to extend longevity in animals. Good> reading. http://www.mercola.com/2001/jul/14/insulin.htm> > The only problem I have had is dizziness when I stand up. That is easily> eliminated by taking three deep breaths before getting up. You will find> boredom the biggest problem. Most people

including myself have more> energy on a water fast then when eating. > > The only potential problem I know of is losing too much potassium.> Juicing limes or lemons and adding to the water during a fast should> prevent that. Limes are very high in potassium. > > Water fasting allows the body to repair organs, an Atkins's diet does> not. > > I have lost over thirty lbs on an extended water fast. I will report on> my progress with diabetes and hbp later. > > A good fasting link.> http://www.freedomyou.com/level%202/Fasting%20Page%20Guide.htm> > How often you fast depend on each individuals needs. If you need to> reverse severe health issues then you may need an extended fast twice a> year for two or three years

before the issue is resolved. You may not> be able to do it in one session. This pertains to weight issues too. > > > Best Regards, Robert & Chloey Ratliff La Chorrera De Panama> > > > > On Behalf Of sisyphus_2005> Tuesday, February 07, 2006 8:47 AM> > Soliciting Opinions and Recommendations> > > > This group seems to have a fairly broad spectrum of fasting > practices, and I'm certainly not soliciting a "consensus" > or "official" position from this group. From what I've seen I > expect some disagreement. I'm just soliciting your opinions on > several questions to help give me some direction at the

start:> > 1. How long should my first fast be? Dr. Fuhrman suggests that > there isn't a whole lot of benefit to fasts of less than a week's > time, but other resources suggest that 24 or 48 hours is a more > appropriate starting point.> > 2. Is there any real benefit to shorter fasts of 24 to 48 hours? If > I am going to go through the discomforts of caffiene withdrawal and > beginning detoxification I'd like to know there's some additional > benefit to short fasts that makes the discomfort worth it.> > 3. Dr. Fuhrman writes a lot about the benefits of ketosis, but I > had previously understood this to be an unhealth and potentially > dangerous metabolic state. Doesn't ketosis create a lot of toxic > byproducts? If so, is ketosis counterproductive to a detoxification > fast? If not, why is fasting-induced ketosis

preferable to Atkins-> induced ketosis?> > 4. Water fasting or juice fasting? Juice fasting seems to run a > broad spectrum. Why would juice fasting be preferable to water > fasting? Some juice fasts seem to permit a daily intake of upward > of 1000 kcal. What is the benefit of reducing caloric intake > without eliminating it? Does consuming calories while avoiding > fiber interfere with digestion more than assist it? Please note, I > don't intend to spark a semantic argument about whether juice > fasting qualifies as fasting.> > 5. How often? One 24-hour fast weekly? One seven-day fast each > season? One 30-day fast every 5 years? Bear in mind I'm looking > for a good place to start. A day a week seems a reasonable starting > point, but I don't want to be a "weekend warrior" if it's too short

> a fast to provide any benefits.> > 6. Last one, I promise. I'm not expecting to reach Nirvana by > fasting alone, but is fasting mostly a "physical" relationship? The > materials I've read spend a lot of time describing the physical > benefits of fasting, but not so much on the mental, emotional or > spiritual benefits. Again, I'm not intending to spark a debate > about spiritual traditions. Nor do I want to suggest that the > physical benefits aren't sufficient in themselves. I'm just > interested in hearing experiences and recommendations from those who > think there are non-physical benefits to fasting (as well of those > who say that it's primarily a "physical thing").> > Thanks much for bearing with me through this long message. Any > insights or thoughts you might want to share would be much > appreciated.>

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Thanks again. Hope I haven't given you the impression that I'm

advocating Atkins. I'm a vegetarian, albeit a vegetarian who's

confused about fasting.

 

, " ROBERT RATLIFF "

<bratliff wrote:

>

> There is another underlying cause of the problem causing ketosis.

> Ketosis in itself is not a problem.

>

> Start and ending a fast is your personal choice. Do it any way you feel

> comfortable.

>

> You can find people talking against ANYTHING, fasting which way to eat,

> ketosis, etc. You have to decide which is correct.

> Any subject you research you will find someone for and someone against.

>

> Besides we are talking apples and oranges. Atkins keep you permanently

> in the edge of ketosis. Fasting ketosis goes away as soon as you start

> eating which means temporary ketosis. You can't fast without ketosis.

> Ketosis is a survival mechanism. We would not be on earth if it was not

> for being able to burn fat as energy. Remember science is A LEARNING

> PROCESS. They do not have all the answers, I fear not even a few. Look

> at the rapid rate of increase in diabetes. It epidemic in the US. This

> is what we get from following the AMA pyramid.

>

>

> Best Regards, Robert & Chloey Ratliff La Chorrera De Panama

>

>

>

>

> On Behalf Of sisyphus_2005

> Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:10 AM

>

> Re: Soliciting Opinions and

> Recommendations

>

>

> Thanks much for the reply and helpful thoughts. My immedialte goal is

> to " clean out " (i.e. detox) my body. The information I have read

> about fasting as improving mental attitude is also a significant

> attraction. Lastly, I'd like to lose some weight (10-15 pounds).

>

> My concern with starting with a 10-day fast is that it would be

> depressing for me to start with a noble goal like that and then not

> make it. I understand that breaking the fast would be my choice, but

> I think that I personally would be more inclined to stick with it if I

> built up to a 10-day fast. There's certainly nothing wrong with

> starting small, is there?

>

> I'm not sure I understand your point that " [k]etosis does not create

> toxins. " The National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney

> Diseases of the National Institute of Health and the University of

> Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas report that ketosis

> creates a build up of uric acid that can lead to gout, kidney stones

> and bone loss.

>

> http://win.niddk.nih.gov/publications/PDFs/Myths.pdf

> http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2003-06-06/cols_health.ht

> ml

>

> Admittedly, both of those findings discuss ketosis in the context of

> Atkins-style high protein diets, not fasting-induced ketosis. Is

> there a difference between the two states?

>

[Guest guest]

I can only ancwer from my experiences. i fast for different reasons and different times and different ways. I did an 18 day fast for prayers to be ancwered so a father could see his son after 10 years. one week later the kid knocked on his door. Fasting gives prayer extra power. and that is biblical. And then I fast to detox sometimes. and if i slip for a few days and eat junk . I fast to get back on track.. and on and on i could go with other examples.. and I know others have thier stories too.. and guess what .. they are all correct... Jennie

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[Guest guest]

, Thor Hallgrimsson

<tor0505 wrote:

>

> For what it´s worth I´ll share with you advice given to me from a

yoga teacher with 20 years experience of fasting. I´m in same shoes

as you, have never tried to fast for any period of time but like the

thought of detoxing etc.

>

A vegetable juice fast is not a fast. Its very good for you I'm sure

but it does not do what a water fast will do for you. My now 14 day

fast is

amazing, I just can't recommend it enough. It is so beneficial

and I look so good my coworkers don't know I'm fasting. I've rounded

the 20 lb mark now. A couple of days ago I sat with a newspaper in

the food court in the mall and all the people eating did not bother

me a bit. Refer to Herbert Shelton for another opinion and Paul

Bragg. If vegetable fasting was all anyone needed why did Gandi

water fast? Yoga people arent experts on fasting. Shelton had 50

years in fasting people.Bragg had even more.Explore Natural hygiene

for comparision. What one does after the fast is almost as important

or the weight or health condition may reoccur.

 

Mike

[Guest guest]

I can not answer which one is better, juice fast or "dry" water untill I´ve tried both. I can only relate what i´ve read and found sense in. One source I´ve read recomends juice drinks even if you are not fasting for detoxing. So my mathematicly trained brain, since grade one, figures that if fasting is detoxifying then juice fasting is even more so, proove me wrong by any means since I´d like to know before I set myself on the wrong path. Seriously, I've nothing against water fast besides what mr. Paavo Airola tought me in his book (who claimed water fast was practically dangerous), like I say, all my knowledge is from books. If you as a person would advice me as a person to do my first fast on purely water I just migh be inclinde to do just that. But so far what I´ve read (and I´m a librarian- informationa scientist major) advices the oposite.

 

Take care and please respond.violinmike2002 <violinmike2002 Sent: 10. febrúar 2006 01:57:11 Re: Soliciting Opinions and Recommendations , Thor Hallgrimsson<tor0505 wrote:>> For what it´s worth I´ll share with you advice given to me from ayoga teacher with 20 years experience of fasting. I´m in same shoesas you, have never tried to fast for any period of time but like thethought of detoxing etc.> A vegetable juice fast is not a fast. Its very good for you I'm surebut it does not do what a water fast will do for you. My now 14 dayfast is amazing, I just can't recommend it enough. It is so beneficialand I look so good my coworkers don't know I'm fasting. I've roundedthe 20 lb mark now. A

couple of days ago I sat with a newspaper inthe food court in the mall and all the people eating did not botherme a bit. Refer to Herbert Shelton for another opinion and PaulBragg. If vegetable fasting was all anyone needed why did Gandiwater fast? Yoga people arent experts on fasting. Shelton had 50years in fasting people.Bragg had even more.Explore Natural hygienefor comparision. What one does after the fast is almost as importantor the weight or health condition may reoccur. Mike

[Guest guest]

I agree with you Mike Juice fasting can do some good in some ways. but water fasting does the job you are after. All the fasting greats in history , water fasted. Some people can only do juice fasting and they can detox greatly by this method but cellular repair can only happen through water fasting. and there will be people who disagree with us of course, but I am with you 200%.... Jennie

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[Guest guest]

there are more resourses outside the library then in. most libraries are limited on fasting material. a long time ago there were rules on printing suggesting drastic measures and Paavo died a long time ago.He did not do any studies on water fasting as a true study.Yes juice fasting can do miracles but water fasting does much much more. you dont want the body digesting anything, and juice has to be digested. so true fast and detox and repair cant be done until digesting has stopped.

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[Guest guest]

Agree. I came off a 36 day water fast. I did a lot of detoxing during that time.

 

 

Best Regards, Robert & Chloey Ratliff La Chorrera De Panama

<*> <*>

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of jennie spoonerFriday, February 10, 2006 6:24 AM Subject: Re: Re: Soliciting Opinions and Recommendationsthere are more resourses outside the library then in. most libraries are limited on fasting material. a long time ago there were rules on printing suggesting drastic measures and Paavo died a long time ago.He did not do any studies on water fasting as a true study.Yes juice fasting can do miracles but water fasting does much much more. you dont want the body digesting anything, and juice has to be digested. so true fast and detox and repair cant be done until digesting has stopped.

 

 

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[Guest guest]

, " violinmike2002 "

<violinmike2002 wrote:

> A vegetable juice fast is not a fast. Its very good for you I'm sure

> but it does not do what a water fast will do for you.

===============================================================

 

A vegetable juice fast is different, yes, but it is still a fast. Just

a different type. A fruit juice fast is different, a " master cleanse "

fast is different, a water fast is different.

 

They serve different purposes, but they are all fasts. Even the home

page of this group makes reference to water fasting AND juice fasting.

 

One is not superior to the another. They are just different.

 

Rachel

[Guest guest]

According to my information a water fast is a faster detox then juice or MC. Man has been doing water fasting for thousands of years, not the master cleanse or juice master juice, etc.

 

 

Best Regards, Robert & Chloey Ratliff La Chorrera De Panama

<*> <*>

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of rachd1961Friday, February 10, 2006 11:57 AM Subject: Re: Soliciting Opinions and Recommendations , "violinmike2002" <violinmike2002 wrote:> A vegetable juice fast is not a fast. Its very good for you I'm sure> but it does not do what a water fast will do for you. ===============================================================A vegetable juice fast is different, yes, but it is still a fast. Just a different type. A fruit juice fast is different, a "master cleanse" fast is different, a water fast is different.They serve different purposes, but they are all fasts. Even the home page of this group makes reference to water fasting AND juice fasting.One is not superior to the another. They are just different.Rachel

[Guest guest]

Right. Some people aren't looking for a faster detox. Some people's

bodies would react badly to a faster detox, which would make a water

fast an unhealthy prospect for them.

 

Another group member said a vegetable juice fast is not a fast and I

was pointing out that it is just a different type of fast.

 

Everybody is free to do whatever type of fast they want but I'd hate

to see this group become one of those fasting groups that puts a

level of superiority on one type of fasting over another.

 

It's supposed to be a discussion and support group for different

types of fasting, according to the home page. I would hope that

people would feel free to share about whatever type of fasting they

are doing.

 

I have done both water fasting and juice fasting. They serve

different purposes. Both have value.

 

Rachel

 

 

, " ROBERT RATLIFF "

<bratliff wrote:

>

> According to my information a water fast is a faster detox then

juice or

> MC. Man has been doing water fasting for thousands of years, not

the

> master cleanse or juice master juice, etc.

>

>

> Best Regards, Robert & Chloey Ratliff La Chorrera De Panama

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Rachel! I've been meaning to say something in that matter, that this is a support group to turn to for questions and of course support! I personally think that whichever (or both) kinds of fasting are healthy if done properly and positive effects can be found from both. This isn't a "my way or the highway" kind of place. I value and respect everyone's opinion and knowledge from this group. Christierachd1961 <faithful2finish wrote: Right. Some people aren't looking for a faster detox. Some people's bodies would react badly to a faster detox, which would make a water fast an unhealthy prospect for them.Another group member said a vegetable juice fast is not a fast and I was

pointing out that it is just a different type of fast. Everybody is free to do whatever type of fast they want but I'd hate to see this group become one of those fasting groups that puts a level of superiority on one type of fasting over another. It's supposed to be a discussion and support group for different types of fasting, according to the home page. I would hope that people would feel free to share about whatever type of fasting they are doing.I have done both water fasting and juice fasting. They serve different purposes. Both have value. Rachel , "ROBERT RATLIFF" <bratliff wrote:>> According to my information a water fast is a faster detox then juice or> MC. Man has been doing water fasting for thousands of years, not the> master cleanse or juice master juice, etc. > >

> Best Regards, Robert & Chloey Ratliff La Chorrera De Panama>

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[Guest guest]

What I´m interested to know. Did thos who solicitate water fast do such on their first fast"

 

Thorrachd1961 <faithful2finish Sent: 10. febrúar 2006 23:23:24 Re: Soliciting Opinions and RecommendationsRight. Some people aren't looking for a faster detox. Some people's bodies would react badly to a faster detox, which would make a water fast an unhealthy prospect for them.Another group member said a vegetable juice fast is not a fast and I was pointing out that it is just a different type of fast. Everybody is free to do whatever type of fast they want but I'd hate to see this group become one of those fasting groups that puts a level of superiority on one type of fasting over another. It's supposed to be a discussion and support group for different types of fasting, according to the home page. I would hope that people would feel free to share

about whatever type of fasting they are doing.I have done both water fasting and juice fasting. They serve different purposes. Both have value. Rachel , "ROBERT RATLIFF" <bratliff wrote:>> According to my information a water fast is a faster detox then juice or> MC. Man has been doing water fasting for thousands of years, not the> master cleanse or juice master juice, etc. > > > Best Regards, Robert & Chloey Ratliff La Chorrera De Panama>

[Guest guest]

, jennie spooner

<jhspooner2003 wrote:

>

> I agree with you Mike

> Juice fasting can do some good in some ways. but water fasting

does the job you are after. All the fasting greats in history , water

fasted. Some people can only do juice fasting and they can detox

greatly by this method but cellular repair can only happen through

water fasting. and there will be people who disagree with us of

course, but I am with you 200%.... Jennie

>

 

You and I know the best healing will be done when

the body relies on its own resources. The body kicks

over into no hunger at all within a day or two and juice

fasting with its ups and downs in sugar levels will add a

lot of calories if one is overweight and leave one with

food cravings and not do the quality job of healing

conditions. Thanks for replying. So many just do not know

what the deal is we are talking about. Thats why I suggest

a water fast of 24 to 36 hours first and detox a little

and see what that little start would do.It might be easy

it might be a tougher detox but days later one will know

something really good happened

 

Mike

 

Mike

[Guest guest]

, " ROBERT RATLIFF "

<bratliff wrote:

>

> Agree. I came off a 36 day water fast. I did a lot of detoxing during

> that time.

>

>

> Best Regards, Robert & Chloey Ratliff La Chorrera De Pana

 

 

Its just amazing isnt it Robert. And these newbies dont have to enter the

fasting olympics to start just a day or three and they will

see some results once a week.

>

[Guest guest]

, " rachd1961 "

<faithful2finish wrote:

>

> Right. Some people aren't looking for a faster detox. Some people's

> bodies would react badly to a faster detox, which would make a water

> fast an unhealthy prospect for them.

>

> Another group member said a vegetable juice fast is not a fast and I

> was pointing out that it is just a different type of fast.

>

> Everybody is free to do whatever type of fast they want but I'd hate

> to see this group become one of those fasting groups that puts a

> level of superiority on one type of fasting over another.

>

> It's supposed to be a discussion and support group for different

> types of fasting, according to the home page. I would hope that

> people would feel free to share about whatever type of fasting they

> are doing.

>

> I have done both water fasting and juice fasting. They serve

> different purposes. Both have value.

>

> Rachel

 

I didn't say it doesn't have value.

Relax. Roberts just finished a long fast and I am on day 16

of my water fast with 17 lbs lost. Do whatever you want . We're

really enthusiastic about what we've done but I have no intention

of hanging around here everyday. If no one shares their experiences

and just shares their opinions others will never know what we found

out. In natural hygiene which I follow and you may not have heard

of a juice or vegetable fast is never recommended

 

Mike

[Guest guest]

, Thor Hallgrimsson

<tor0505 wrote:

>

> What I´m interested to know. Did thos who solicitate water fast do

such on their first fast "

>

> Thor

Yes I followed Braggs the Miracle of Fasting for my first water fasts.

My first fast was 24 hours then 36 hours then 3 days. Later I took

nine. Sometimes I ended them too soon out of work necessity. I got good

results on all of them. But before I modified my diet to mostly

raw some of them were not easy with skin breaking out in acne

and feeling awful. After the fast ended though I felt better then

before a few days later.

 

Mike

[Guest guest]

of course it is thats why some people detox so fast that they have to switch over to juice because the detox symptoms are tooo severe for them because they have been living a bad life of dumping junk in thier system. Water does it quicker and more thorough.juice slows it down because some digestion is happining. and true detoxing cannot happen if the body is still on digestion mode.

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[Guest guest]

, " violinmike2002 " > I

didn't say it doesn't have value. Relax. Roberts just finished a

long fast and I am on day 16 of my water fast with 17 lbs lost. Do

whatever you want . We're really enthusiastic about what we've done

but I have no intention of hanging around here everyday. If no one

shares their experiences and just shares their opinions others will

never know what we found out. In natural hygiene which I follow and

you may not have heard of a juice or vegetable fast is never

recommended

>

 

You didn't say it doesn't have value, but you did say it's not a

fast. That's what I was referring to.

 

Nobody has asked you to hang around here everyday. I think it's

great that you share what you're doing. But when you make a

blanket statement about a vegetable juice fast not being a fast,

that can discourage others from sharing their experiences.

 

I have done both juice fasting and water fasting. My longest water

fast was 21 days and the longest juice fast was 67 days. I enjoyed

the experience of the longer fasts, but also find shorter fasts to

be quite beneficial.

 

Rachel

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Rachel. I started this discussion, so I can't help escaping

the fact that I am somewhat responsible for the direction the

discussion I was heading.

 

I was, as my message said, " soliciting opinions and

recommendations " I never meant it to get into a semantic argument

about what is and is not " fasting. " If it is going to get

contentious then please drop the thread. This is a very friendly

board and I wouldn't want responsible for it becoming anything less

than that.

 

, " rachd1961 "

<faithful2finish wrote:

>

> Right. Some people aren't looking for a faster detox. Some

people's

> bodies would react badly to a faster detox, which would make a

water

> fast an unhealthy prospect for them.

>

> Another group member said a vegetable juice fast is not a fast and

I

> was pointing out that it is just a different type of fast.

>

> Everybody is free to do whatever type of fast they want but I'd

hate

> to see this group become one of those fasting groups that puts a

> level of superiority on one type of fasting over another.

>

> It's supposed to be a discussion and support group for different

> types of fasting, according to the home page. I would hope that

> people would feel free to share about whatever type of fasting

they

> are doing.

>

> I have done both water fasting and juice fasting. They serve

> different purposes. Both have value.

>

> Rachel

>

>

> , " ROBERT RATLIFF "

> <bratliff@> wrote:

> >

> > According to my information a water fast is a faster detox then

> juice or

> > MC. Man has been doing water fasting for thousands of years, not

> the

> > master cleanse or juice master juice, etc.

> >

> >

> > Best Regards, Robert & Chloey Ratliff La Chorrera De Panama

> >

>