Macrobiotics

[Guest guest]

, herbbabe <herbbabe@e...> wrote:

> all,

>

> regarding dairy. i just tell my patients that Milk is just

vegetables that went through a cow.

 

here, here!!

 

People go way over the top about dairy. It has a long history of use

as a health food, both raw and cooked. In fact, some yogic longevity

traditions center around dairy. Anyone who dismisses it out of hand

is not familiar with either modern nutritional biochemistry or

traditional dietetics. some do well on dairy, some don't. the

argument that no one besides a baby cow should eat dairy is just

silly. What animal ever ate tofu, a product created by man from a

bean that is indigestible to humans in its natural state or any cooked

food, for that matter. Being healthy is not about living in our

natural state. It is about maintaining our health by understanding

balance through observing nature. There is a big difference, often

missed in new age food fad circles. Ayurveda recommmends eating dairy

with aromatic and hot spices to overcome its richness. that works for

most of my patients. otherwise we can all run around naked in

subsaharan africa eating fruit. that is the sole " natural "

environment for homo sapiens. I suppose San diego would work, too. :-)

 

[Guest guest]

Hear hear another point of view!

 

Dairy products per say are not 'bad'.. . but there are a number of

factors that make them less than ideal for many patients.

1) the quality of dairy products (pasteurization for one, although I

know it has pros and cons), including issues you mentioned, such

as the way animals are raised and fed (antibiotics, hormones, etc.).

 

2) the amounts eaten

 

3) body type ( constitution).

 

In Chinese medicine, we say that most dairy products, especially cow

are cold and damp. Cold damp foods in excess can weaken the spleen.

Goat products are much warmer and drier, and less phlegm producing.

Also, there is a difference between drinking milk and eating dairy

products, which are modified by fermentation to make them more

digestible.

 

This especially impacts young children, who have weak spleens and

easily can develop phlegm-damp. Foods such as ice cream are one of the

major culprits in recurrent colds and digestive problems in children.

 

Small to moderate amounts of dairy products can be beneficial for yin

vacuity patients with heat. They are less than ideal for spleen qi

vacuity damp patients.

 

In Ayurvedic medicine, as you mention, balance of dairy products with

'food antidotes' such as ginger and cardamom is part of their

consumption. We need to learn from this way of diet.

 

Macrobiotics reflects, in my opinion, the lack of milk products in the

diets of Japanese and most Chinese for millenia. When Asians are newly

exposed to milk products, there may be bad reactions to them. Whereas

India has subsisted on milk products for equally as long a period, so

more acclimation.

 

 

 

On Monday, March 17, 2003, at 12:41 PM, wrote:

 

> , herbbabe <herbbabe@e...>

> wrote:

>> all,

>>

>> regarding dairy. i just tell my patients that Milk is just

> vegetables that went through a cow.

>

> here, here!!

>

> People go way over the top about dairy. It has a long history of use

> as a health food, both raw and cooked. In fact, some yogic longevity

> traditions center around dairy. Anyone who dismisses it out of hand

> is not familiar with either modern nutritional biochemistry or

> traditional dietetics. some do well on dairy, some don't. the

> argument that no one besides a baby cow should eat dairy is just

> silly. What animal ever ate tofu, a product created by man from a

> bean that is indigestible to humans in its natural state or any cooked

> food, for that matter. Being healthy is not about living in our

> natural state. It is about maintaining our health by understanding

> balance through observing nature. There is a big difference, often

> missed in new age food fad circles. Ayurveda recommmends eating dairy

> with aromatic and hot spices to overcome its richness. that works for

> most of my patients. otherwise we can all run around naked in

> subsaharan africa eating fruit. that is the sole " natural "

> environment for homo sapiens. I suppose San diego would work, too. :-)

>

 

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> 3) body type (constitution).

 

 

Z'ev:

 

Since you wrote about The Dephic Boat, do you also look at heredity?

Various cultures have adapted to foods differently because of their

environments as well as thier history of diet. The more northern the

lattitude, usually the more suited they are for fats and proteins to

help maintain their metabolism for harsher climates. While in more

souther lattitudes, the opposite is true.

 

But with everyone being more migratory and traveling around, it is

not always a key variable.

 

And then consider the Tibetans' taste for putting Yak butter even in

their tea---will this habit spread from the Lhasa Starbuck's to all

the other Starbucks in the world?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

I in no way meant to demonize dairy. My point o my patients is that one needn't

rely on dairy as a major source of calcium. Most have been indoctrinated by the

dairy board. I'm fine w/ small amounts. and I agree- cheeses are more

digestable then milk.

but in ayurveda, they heat it w/ warming spices to enhance its digestibility.

 

BTW- has anyone ever had an opportunity to read about Jack Lalanne?- he;s at

least 85, works out for 2 hours daily, takes only aspirin. and has a totally

clear bland diet; he says if it doesn't look like what it is- don;t eat it.

friuts, veggies, nuts, whole grains, some fish. what a role model!

 

Cara

 

>

> Hear hear another point of view!

 

Dairy products per say are not 'bad'.. . but there are a number of

factors that make them less than ideal for many patients.

1) the quality of dairy products (pasteurization for one, although I

know it has pros and cons), including issues you mentioned, such

as the way animals are raised and fed (antibiotics, hormones, etc.).

 

2) the amounts eaten

 

3) body type ( constitution).

 

In Chinese medicine, we say that most dairy products, especially cow

are cold and damp. Cold damp foods in excess can weaken the spleen.

Goat products are much warmer and drier, and less phlegm producing.

Also, there is a difference between drinking milk and eating dairy

products, which are modified by fermentation to make them more

digestible.

 

This especially impacts young children, who have weak spleens and

easily can develop phlegm-damp. Foods such as ice cream are one of the

major culprits in recurrent colds and digestive problems in children.

 

Small to moderate amounts of dairy products can be beneficial for yin

vacuity patients with heat. They are less than ideal for spleen qi

vacuity damp patients.

 

In Ayurvedic medicine, as you mention, balance of dairy products with

'food antidotes' such as ginger and cardamom is part of their

consumption. We need to learn from this way of diet.

 

Macrobiotics reflects, in my opinion, the lack of milk products in the

diets of Japanese and most Chinese for millenia. When Asians are newly

exposed to milk products, there may be bad reactions to them. Whereas

India has subsisted on milk products for equally as long a period, so

more acclimation.

 

 

 

On Monday, March 17, 2003, at 12:41 PM, wrote:

 

> , herbbabe <herbbabe@e...>

> wrote:

>> all,

>>

>> regarding dairy. i just tell my patients that Milk is just

> vegetables that went through a cow.

>

> here, here!!

>

> People go way over the top about dairy. It has a long history of use

> as a health food, both raw and cooked. In fact, some yogic longevity

> traditions center around dairy. Anyone who dismisses it out of hand

> is not familiar with either modern nutritional biochemistry or

> traditional dietetics. some do well on dairy, some don't. the

> argument that no one besides a baby cow should eat dairy is just

> silly. What animal ever ate tofu, a product created by man from a

> bean that is indigestible to humans in its natural state or any cooked

> food, for that matter. Being healthy is not about living in our

> natural state. It is about maintaining our health by understanding

> balance through observing nature. There is a big difference, often

> missed in new age food fad circles. Ayurveda recommmends eating dairy

> with aromatic and hot spices to overcome its richness. that works for

> most of my patients. otherwise we can all run around naked in

> subsaharan africa eating fruit. that is the sole " natural "

> environment for homo sapiens. I suppose San diego would work, too. :-)

>

 

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, herbbabe <herbbabe@e...> wrote:

> I in no way meant to demonize dairy.

 

I thought you were pretty fair on dairy. that's why I said, here, here.

 

 

>

> BTW- has anyone ever had an opportunity to read about Jack Lalanne?-

he;s at least 85, works out for 2 hours daily, takes only aspirin.

and has a totally clear bland diet; he says if it doesn't look like

what it is- don;t eat it. friuts, veggies, nuts, whole grains, some

fish. what a role model!

 

He also says, " if it tastes good, spit it out " . the guy is amazing

with his discipline and what he can do. His physical feats still

exceed what most of us could do at any age and he is hardly at his

peak conditioning. the guy used to tow dozens of boats attached to

himself with a harness while he swam through cold water. that was

when he was only 75. I saw this biography on him on cable and you

should see the pictures of him from venice beach in the 40's!!

However I also learned something interesting about him. His family is

extremely long lived. He even has an older living brother who has

lived a normal american lifestyle visa ve diet and exercise. The

elder Lalannne sibling is also in excellent health, though I doubt he

can perform the physical feats of Jack. It perhaps underscores the

idea that no amount of good diet and exercise can lengthen one's

natural lifespan. It just improves the quality of life during this

lifespan and gives one a greater chance of living it out. But some

people just have good genes and they smoke and drink and still live to

a hundred. I guess you have a choice to make if you are one of those. :-)

 

[Guest guest]

Didn't know about his good genes. maybe I'll start the day w/ bourbon and a

smoke :-).

 

His wife is still going strong too. I wonder what her fmaily history is?

- can you disconnect me from the list until the beginning of next month? I'm

going away.

 

thanks,

 

Cara

 

 

He also says, " if it tastes good, spit it out " . the guy is amazing

with his discipline and what he can do. His physical feats still

exceed what most of us could do at any age and he is hardly at his

peak conditioning. the guy used to tow dozens of boats attached to

himself with a harness while he swam through cold water. that was

when he was only 75. I saw this biography on him on cable and you

should see the pictures of him from venice beach in the 40's!!

However I also learned something interesting about him. His family is

extremely long lived. He even has an older living brother who has

lived a normal american lifestyle visa ve diet and exercise. The

elder Lalannne sibling is also in excellent health, though I doubt he

can perform the physical feats of Jack. It perhaps underscores the

idea that no amount of good diet and exercise can lengthen one's

natural lifespan. It just improves the quality of life during this

lifespan and gives one a greater chance of living it out. But some

people just have good genes and they smoke and drink and still live to

a hundred. I guess you have a choice to make if you are one of those. :-)

 

[Guest guest]

has anyone ever had an opportunity to read about Jack Lalanne?- he;s at least 85, works out for 2 hours daily, takes only aspirin. and has a totally clear bland diet; he says if it doesn't look like what it is- don;t eat it. friuts, veggies, nuts, whole grains, some fish. what a role model!>>>>And you also have plenty of people that eat fast foods (or other unhealthy), smock and drink and still strong at 85. Life and longevity is a little more complex than that

Alon

 

[Guest guest]

I have to diverge on this one. Most of these old-timers grew up before

WW II and ate a relatively healthy diet, no junk food, chemicals or

agribusiness food. I doubt we are going to get the same longevity on

the present American diet.

 

 

On Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 08:32 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> >>>>And you also have plenty of people that eat fast foods (or other

> unhealthy), smock and drink and still strong at 85. Life and

> longevity is a little more complex than that

> Alon

[Guest guest]

I have to diverge on this one. Most of these old-timers grew up before WW II and ate a relatively healthy diet, no junk food, chemicals or agribusiness food. I doubt we are going to get the same longevity on the present American diet.>>>I have seen quite a few of these. If you look at research ones genetic make up seems to be much more important as to longevity than life styles. While for most of us life style does make a difference, its much smaller than we would like to believe.

Alon

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " wrote:

While for most of us life style does make a difference, its much

smaller than we would like to believe. >>>

 

 

Alon:

 

I think you are partially correct. Longevity in the US has increased

since 1950 from [F/M] 66.0/71.7 to 72.9/83.3 in 1998. I suspect much

of it is attributable to having the lowering of infant mortality,

improved birth weight, and improved health care.

 

There's a chart from the Turkish Australian Online Business (TAOB)

website which includes longevity statistics (from the U.S. Census

Bureau) on many countries:

http://www.taob.com.au/generalinfo/statistics/taob0774532.asp

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

James Ramholz wrote:

 

> I think you are partially correct. Longevity in the US has increased

> since 1950 from [F/M] 66.0/71.7 to 72.9/83.3 in 1998. I suspect much

> of it is attributable to having the lowering of infant mortality,

> improved birth weight, and improved health care.

 

Yes, as I understand it, these stats hide the fact that we're not really

living longer, we're just not dying so soon. So, the oldest among us

aren't getting any older, but there are less babies dying and so forth.

 

I just happened to hear recently that Benjemin Franklin died at age 84 !

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

, Al Stone wrote:

Yes, as I understand it, these stats hide the fact that we're not

really living longer, we're just not dying so soon. So, the oldest

among us aren't getting any older, but there are less babies dying

and so forth. >>>

 

Al:

 

I think the statistics intend to show that *more* people are living

to those ages. But you're probably right about an upper natural

limit to aging. What's not accounted for the rise in chronic illness-

--more people living longer, and requiring more healthcare resources.

 

I remember seeing a television show a long time ago about people

living past 100. Of the half dozen or so interviewed, there was no

consistancy in diet. The only thing they had in common was an

indefatigable attitute that life was good.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

has anyone ever had an opportunity to read about Jack Lalanne?- he;s at least 85, works out for 2 hours daily, takes only aspirin. and has a totally clear bland diet; he says if it doesn't look like what it is- don;t eat it. friuts, veggies, nuts, whole grains, some fish. what a role model!>>>>And you also have plenty of people that eat fast foods (or other unhealthy), smock and drink and still strong at 85. Life and longevity is a little more complex than that

 

Alon

 

Longevity experiments in mice as well as in humans notes that the most common factors supporting longevity are low blood sugar (no spikes), no insulin resistance, and low triglycerides. In human trials only those variables were noted over large numbers of people to matter. As you note, some smoke, drink alcohol, some are joyous, some are nasty curmudgeons. The above blood factors are thus far the only common factors noted across the range of different people. By using this data and adjusting the diets of other mammals (esp. mice and rats) research has shown the above dietary factors to be the most significant, and they have repeatable outcomes in other mammals. It basically means, moderate calories, low refined carbohydrates (no sugar, no flour), and low fried foods or foods with saturated fats. That still leaves a big wide range of possibilities. Note that insulin resistance comes from a diet of refined carbohydrates and is now documented in many studies as the strongest correlation with late onset diabetes. I like Jack L.'s idea of being able to see if it looks like what it is.

 

Note also that insulin resistance is implicated in increased appetite and weight gain. The liver is the first to become insulin resistant and can't tell when to stop eating. Adipose tissue in most people remains insulin sensitive even after the liver tissue is insulin resistant. Basically it means people eat too much because refined carbos jack up the appetite. In that particular respect science has come to the rescue to tell us what we already know.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

[Guest guest]

This is close to what Zhu Dan-xi recommends in the qing dan/clear-bland

diet, choosing flavors from foods in their natural state, such as

" grains, beans, greens and fruits " , and avoiding human refined

flavors, " thick flavors made by brewing and blending in the process of

cooking " (Extra Treatises Based on Investigation and Inquiry/Ge zhi yu

lun, Yang Shou-zhong and Duan Wu-jin, Blue Poppy Press). This includes

salty condiments and vinegar.

 

 

On Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 02:54 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

 

> I like Jack L.'s idea of being able to see if it looks like what it

> is. 

[Guest guest]

Longevity experiments in mice as well as in humans notes that the most common factors supporting longevity are low blood sugar (no spikes), no insulin resistance, and low triglycerides. In human trials only those variables were noted over large numbers of people to matter.

>>>Low caloric intake does more than anything

alon

[Guest guest]

Longevity experiments in mice as well as in humans notes that the most common factors supporting longevity are low blood sugar (no spikes), no insulin resistance, and low triglycerides. In human trials only those variables were noted over large numbers of people to matter.

>>>Low caloric intake does more than anything

alon

 

Alon, righto. That's how the research began and is still the most consistent finding for longevity - low calories. More refined experiments utilize calorie-reduced-optimal-nutrition. Occasionally I see an acronym C.R.O.N. referencing these experiments. I don't know whose idea that was. More refined epidemiological findings show in addition to low calorie intake that the above general observations hold true - that the elderly human subjects also retain insulin sensitivity and have low tryglycerides.

 

The other thing you noted, Alon, about genetics is also true. That goes all the way back to 1975 research reported in New Eng. J. of Med. by Brown and Goldman when they first characterized the activities of HDLs being able to scavenge cholesterol from LDLs. It's research on "familial atherosclerosis" - genetic defect in liver receptors. One issue is that you have to be born with good liver receptors for re-uptake and metabolism of the HDLs. Also of note is that saturated fats block those reuptake receptors no matter how perfectly formed they are. The latest breaking research shows hope for people who have high cholesterol despite maintaining the diet of a forest sage. They could engage in some aerobic activity, and this apparently changes LDL carriers so that they do not deposit their cholesterol in arterial walls (now in early stages of research.) Aerobic activity also elevates HDL levels relative to LDL levels and improves insulin sensitivity. The latter means an overall reduction in postprandial (after-meal) appetite. As Ken would say, "so that you know it's me" I'm attaching three abstracts. Please note that this is a high level of restraint on my part. ;-) I normally lecture with at least 5 or 6 papers.

 

 

 

 

Changes in low-density lipoprotein electronegativity and oxidizability after aerobic exercise are related to the increase in associated non-esterified fatty acids.

 

Atherosclerosis 2002 Jan;160(1):223-32 (ISSN: 0021-9150)

 

Benitez S; Sanchez-Quesada JL; Lucero L; Arcelus R; Ribas V; Jorba O; Castellvi A; Alonso E; Blanco-Vaca F; Ordonez-Llanos J Servei de Bioquimica, Hospital de la Santa Creu i Sant Pau, Barcelona, Spain.

 

The immediate effects of intense aerobic exercise on the composition and oxidizability of low- (LDL) and high-density lipoproteins (HDL) were studied in 11 male athletes. Plasma parameters known to affect lipoprotein oxidizability were also evaluated. Lipophilic antioxidants, including alpha-tocopherol and carotenoids, paraoxonase and malondialdehyde (MDA) in plasma remained unchanged after exercise. Increases in the concentration of uric acid, bilirubin and ascorbic acid after the race resulted in a significant increase in total antioxidant serum capacity. LDL, but not HDL, increased its "in vitro"-induced susceptibility to oxidation and the proportion of electronegative LDL (LDL-). The ability of HDL to inhibit the oxidation of LDL remained unchanged after exercise. The enhanced oxidizability of LDL was not explained by increments in its aldehyde content or by decrements in antioxidants. The major compositional change in LDL was an increase in non-esterified fatty acid (NEFA) content (from 4.00+/-1.24 to 19.00+/-14.18 mol NEFA/mol apoB). NEFA also increased in plasma and HDL. "In vitro" experiments showed that incubation of LDL with increasing amounts of NEFA induced a concentration-dependent increase in the proportion of LDL-. Moreover, a slightly increased NEFA content in LDL (15-50 mol NEFA/mol apoB) induced higher susceptibility to oxidation. These "in vitro" results concur with those observed in LDL obtained from athletes after exercise, i.e. a concentration of approximately 20 mol NEFA/mol apoB increased LDL oxidizability and LDL- proportion. We conclude that changes in the qualitative characteristics of LDL after exercise were unrelated to oxidative stress, but were related to the increase in LDL-associated NEFA content.

 

 

 

 

 

Effects of acute prolonged exercise on-serum and LDL oxidation and antioxidant defences.

 

Free Radic Biol Med 1997;22(3):509-13 (ISSN: 0891-5849)

 

Vasankari TJ; Kujala UM; Vasankari TM; Vuorimaa T; Ahotupa M Paavo Nurmi Center, Sports Medical Research Unit, Vierumaki, Finland.

 

 

We investigated the acute effects of long-distance running on oxidation of lipids and antioxidant functions in LDL and serum. Eight trained male runners who participated in a 31-km run and 22 male keep-fit runners who participated in a marathon run were enrolled into the study. Venous blood samples were taken before and immediately after the exercise. There were no changes in LDL diene conjugation (LDL-DC) or LDL antioxidant potential (LDL-TRAP) during the exercises. Serum (S-) TRAP and S-alpha-tocopherol rose during the 31-km run (by 22%, p = .0005, and by 29%, p = .011, respectively), and during the marathon (by 16%, p = .0014, and by 7%, p = .031, respectively). S-DC rose during the 31-km run (by 9%, p = .0026), but not during the marathon (p = .14). Preexercise and postexercise S-alpha-tocopherol correlated positively with pre and postexercise S-TRAP in the marathon run (r = .473, 95% CI 0.064 to 0.746, and r = .524, 95% CI 0.131 to 0.774, respectively). Thus, the paradoxical exercise-associated increase in S-TRAP is, at least in part, explained by a simultaneous rise in S-alpha-tocopherol concentration. However, acute exercise does not change LDL-DC or LDL-TRAP concentrations.

 

 

 

 

 

Effects of diet and exercise in men and postmenopausal women with low levels of HDL cholesterol and high levels of LDL cholesterol.

 

N Engl J Med 1998 Jul 2;339(1):12-20 (ISSN: 0028-4793)

 

Stefanick ML; Mackey S; Sheehan M; Ellsworth N; Haskell WL; Wood PD Stanford Center for Research in Disease Prevention, Stanford University School of Medicine, Calif, USA.

 

BACKGROUND: Guidelines established by the National Cholesterol Education Program (NCEP) promote exercise and weight loss for the treatment of abnormal lipoprotein levels. Little is known, however, about the effects of exercise or the NCEP diet, which is moderately low in fat and cholesterol, in persons with lipoprotein levels that place them at high risk for coronary heart disease. METHODS: We studied plasma lipoprotein levels in 180 postmenopausal women, 45 through 64 years of age, and 197 men, 30 through 64 years of age, who had low high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol levels (< or =59 mg per deciliter in women and < or =44 mg per deciliter in men) and moderately elevated levels of low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol (>125 mg per deciliter but <210 mg per deciliter in women and >125 mg per deciliter but <190 mg per deciliter in men). The subjects were randomly assigned to aerobic exercise, the NCEP Step 2 diet, or diet plus exercise, or to a control group, which received no intervention. RESULTS: Dietary intake of fat and cholesterol decreased during the one-year study (P<0.001), as did body weight, in women and men in either the diet group or the diet-plus-exercise group, as compared with the controls (P<0.001) and the exercise group (P<0.05), in which dietary intake and body weight were unchanged. Changes in HDL cholesterol and triglyceride levels and the ratio of total to HDL cholesterol did not differ significantly among the treatment groups, for subjects of either sex. The serum level of LDL cholesterol was significantly reduced among women (a decrease of 14.5+/-22.2 mg per deciliter) and men (a decrease of 20.0+/-17.3 mg per deciliter) in the diet-plus-exercise group, as compared with the control group (women had a decrease of 2.5+/-16.6 mg per deciliter, P<0.05; men had a decrease of 4.6+/-21.1 mg per deciliter, P<0.001). The reduction in LDL cholesterol in men in the diet-plus-exercise group was also significant as compared with that among the men in the exercise group (3.6+/-18.8 mg per deciliter, P<0.001). In contrast, changes in LDL cholesterol levels were not significant among the women (a decrease of 7.3+/-18.9 mg per deciliter) or the men (10.8+/-18.8 mg per deciliter) in the diet group, as compared with the controls. CONCLUSIONS: The NCEP Step 2 diet failed to lower LDL cholesterol levels in men or women with high-risk lipoprotein levels who did not engage in aerobic exercise. This finding highlights the importance of physical activity in the treatment of elevated LDL cholesterol levels.

[Guest guest]

For anyone interested in macrobiotics, here is a link to something I found that might be of interest. It is foods that are all nautral and totally macriobiotic. They are chemical free, non GMO, and non processed.

 

They contain fruits, vegetables, nuts, whole grains, seeds, and legumes. The only thing that is missing for a macrobiotic diet is the sea vegetables, and you can get those minerals from sea salt.

 

The foods are easy, convenient, and portable. They are great for desktop dining or dashboard dining.

 

www.pulseparty.com/WholeFoodNutrition

 

 

Barb, RN Wholistic Healthcare Consultant

 

 

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