Forgiveness

[Guest guest]

For me forgiveness was an easy plan but hard to put into action

 

I asked myself repeatedly the following question,

 

How much more pain do I deserve to feel for something that was not MY fault?

 

The answer of course is NONE!!!

 

Forgiveness is the key and first step toward extended peace of mind. If you

can hold no hostility towards all the faults that cross your path you will

feel an extended peace of mind that is virtually impossible to describe in

words.

 

JED

[Guest guest]

Dan wrote:

> " Living well is the best revenge. "

 

What a great adage. And not that I want revenge, per se... but I would

like the hurtful part of life, not necessarily individuals, to see that

I am strong.

 

I really struggled through the chapter on tribal association, wondering

how I could live in a society that endorses so many ideas and actions

that I abhor. Trying to figure out how I can fit into a world that I

don't want to fit into most of the time. Sort of a love/hate relationship.

 

Regarding forgiveness, it's always been my way to be as loving as

possible... and when it's not, to be submissive. I have a hard time

with people who say that what ever we have experienced in life is what

we have chosen, for it too often negates being sorry for what we've

done. I may have " helped " someone grow, through an unkind action on my

part, but it doesn't take away my error, nor my guilt. As content as I

am to be where I am and as much as I have learned and grown, there is a

person who's been crazy and cruel. I guess it's my attitude toward them

now that is in confusion within me. Not that I can't understand the

mess in their head, not that I don't understnad their human-ness, just

that I don't want to deal with them/the memory and yet I don't want to

live in avoidance.

 

Thanks for your words, Dan.

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

> Regarding forgiveness, it's always been my way to be as loving as

> possible... and when it's not, to be submissive.

 

I prefer to approach things from a perspective of understanding and compassion,

rather than forgiveness. In my own way,

I " understand " that a trangression is often the result of life-long experiences

that manifests itself in a manner whose

intent is to cause injury to the body, mind, or spirit. I have compassion for

those who would act in this way because

they have not yet awakened to the " One-ness " of all things. They do what they

do because they are unable, or unwilling,

to do otherwise. I reserve forgiveness for myself, for those times I lose that

understanding, reacting with anger

rather than with compassion. In forgiving myself I open my heart to greater

depths of love and understanding. For me,

life is a process of growth and learning. And there are still many lessons ahead

of me providing additional

opportunities to grow. These thoughts simply describe my own personal

philosophy, the results of the lessons I have

learned so far, they are nothing more. Each of us must be true to our own belief

systems, to be open to the lessons of

life, and to allow for the opportunity to grow.

 

Mani

[Guest guest]

Forgiveness: I've done many things in my life that I would like forgiveness

for. My actions where not always what was best for All concerned. Ive made

many selfish choices,my thinking has not always been sane. If I want those

people to forgive me, I must be willing to forgive those that caused me harm

for the same reasons. There are a couple of people that that is very hard to

do. If I can see them as sick people it helps somewhat.

 

To Thyne Own Self Be True

Redtail

[Guest guest]

from mcv1052

When we forgive there is a sort of acceptance of the other person and the

anger inside the person who is forgiving some one is gone and is not directed

at another person any more. there may not be a total trust of the other

person but the forgiveness has released the anger in both persons. The act

itself is actually what is remembered. There is a oneness between the two

people because of the anger relleased, the shame and the guilt. Juat a

thought

Cathy

[Guest guest]

Ok... I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but I guess I could just

use some more details regarding those of you who have responded to my

posts. Let's set an example up, and you tell me what you would think

best - for ALL involved.

 

Say a child is mistreated by an older step-brother for quite a few

years. Many, many other things are happening to this child so that the

child can't get help from anyone in his family. The older step-brother,

even into adulthood, shows no remorse... 'worse' still, he acts as

though things are great in the relationship. The child who has grown up

must constantly battle within because of abuse done to him as a child.

Other people come into this person's life and there is more hurt, but it

is dealt with, non-judgementally and with awareness. The child who has

grown up holds no grudges against anyone but is extremely uncomfortable

with the step-brother, doesn't want to pretend everything is great,

wants to acknowledge it with the older step-brother and yet maintain a

distance.

 

I agree that " forgiveness is the key and first step toward extended

peace of mind " as JED shared. I guess I'm just not sure I understand

what forgiveness actually is. C.Myss says that it is not letting the

other person off the hook. What is it then? How is it

shared/manifested with/toward the 'offensive' person? If it is not

simply excusing someone, then how does the relationship work... or not?

 

I understand also that " a transgression is often the result of life-long

experiences that manifests itself in a manner whose intent is to cause

injury to the body, mind, or spirit. I have compassion for those who

would act in this way because they have not yet awakened to the

'One-ness' of all things. They do what they do because they are unable,

or unwilling, to do otherwise. " I do understand this, but I really have

a hard time against crimes against children. A child, I don't think,

can understand this, and often has no recourse available. So much of

what a child learns, he/she repeats unconciously, when he/she is older.

If the child doesn't end up hurting someone when older, the child, in

the least, has to deal with some pretty horrible living nightmares in

finding their identity and their 'One-ness.'

 

I am a firm believer in One-ness. I agree that forgiveness fits very

well in dealing with ourselves. I've experienced all of that and

understand it. And I also appreciate your opinions and learn from them.

 

Thanks Mani.

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo...

 

So, I'll jump in, here. I'm in the process of writing a book chapter

that partially involves this subject, and in a loose way, this is what

I had to say about forgiveness.

 

Forgiveness is for you, not for the person you are forgiving. It is

not about condoning or colluding. Like unconditional love, it says

nothing about personal feelings of right and wrong. You do not have to

like the people that you love. And you do not have to agree with

people to forgive them.

 

Forgiving is letting go. Releasing is the way that you set *yourself*

free from the residual trauma, guilt, pain, fear, anger, resentment,

or whatever other emotional wraiths are pursuing you. Forgiveness is a

form of exorcism. You are expunging the other's effects on you. In the

shamanic sense, you are recapitulating, taking back your own energy so

that the other person, who has " wronged " you, can no longer use it by

feeding on your leftover emotions.

 

Does this make sense to you? Forgiveness in this sense is a personal

gift, and is actually vital for our energetic health and progress. It

is the manifestation of compassion, recognition of the fallability of

the human part of all of us. Not only do we have to forgive others, we

have to learn to forgive ourselves. Often the anger we feel regarding

past wrongs is frustration and impotence, the " why didn't I " or " why

did I " that feeds itself in a cycle of guilt and remorse.

 

Forgiveness is a spiritual practice. It is not easy, but it is

profitable and ultimately very satisfying in a personal sense. It is

done without regard for the other's feelings in the matter; in the

long run, they can be living or dead, it does not make a difference.

Your relationship with them is another issue. You may choose to have

further contact with them or not, but once you have severed the

emotional and energetic ties they have to you with forgiveness, you

will probably find that it is a much less charged issue for you.

 

Blessings,

Crow

 

catoma wrote:

>

> catoma

>

> Ok... I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but I guess I could just

> use some more details regarding those of you who have responded to my

> posts. Let's set an example up, and you tell me what you would think

> best - for ALL involved.

>

> Say a child is mistreated by an older step-brother for quite a few

> years. Many, many other things are happening to this child so that the

> child can't get help from anyone in his family. The older step-brother,

> even into adulthood, shows no remorse... 'worse' still, he acts as

> though things are great in the relationship. The child who has grown up

> must constantly battle within because of abuse done to him as a child.

> Other people come into this person's life and there is more hurt, but it

> is dealt with, non-judgementally and with awareness. The child who has

> grown up holds no grudges against anyone but is extremely uncomfortable

> with the step-brother, doesn't want to pretend everything is great,

> wants to acknowledge it with the older step-brother and yet maintain a

> distance.

>

> I agree that " forgiveness is the key and first step toward extended

> peace of mind " as JED shared. I guess I'm just not sure I understand

> what forgiveness actually is. C.Myss says that it is not letting the

> other person off the hook. What is it then? How is it

> shared/manifested with/toward the 'offensive' person? If it is not

> simply excusing someone, then how does the relationship work... or not?

>

> I understand also that " a transgression is often the result of life-long

> experiences that manifests itself in a manner whose intent is to cause

> injury to the body, mind, or spirit. I have compassion for those who

> would act in this way because they have not yet awakened to the

> 'One-ness' of all things. They do what they do because they are unable,

> or unwilling, to do otherwise. " I do understand this, but I really have

> a hard time against crimes against children. A child, I don't think,

> can understand this, and often has no recourse available. So much of

> what a child learns, he/she repeats unconciously, when he/she is older.

> If the child doesn't end up hurting someone when older, the child, in

> the least, has to deal with some pretty horrible living nightmares in

> finding their identity and their 'One-ness.'

>

> I am a firm believer in One-ness. I agree that forgiveness fits very

> well in dealing with ourselves. I've experienced all of that and

> understand it. And I also appreciate your opinions and learn from them.

>

> Thanks Mani.

>

> Jo

>

> > ****************************************

> To from , send an email to

> -

 

--

Blessings,

Crow

" Look for Rainbows in the Darkness "

--

Rev. Caroline Gutierrez Abreu, BS, RN, CHTP/I, CRMT

ICQ# 4458763

AIM= CaroCrow

 

SomaChi... uniting body, mind & spirit with energy, movement & touch

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/5114/

 

Make a connection...

//

Bodywork's your life? Join Body_Work...

//Body_Work

[Guest guest]

Dear Jo,

 

I have no illusions that I have an easy answer or even a good one for that

matter re: forgiveness. But I did hear one thing on an Oprah show that

really struck a cord with me. She said, as best as I can recall, that

" forgiveness was giving up the hope that the past could be different. " (She

heard this from someone else, but I don't know who.)

 

What this does for me, if I " grok " it, is it discharges the energy around

the issue. The issue is still there to be dealt with, but in an

unencumbered, ion-less state. There develops room to move. It becomes

" workable. " It also somehow puts the ball in my court. I accept it. It

forces me to look at what I " get " by holding on to the pain. I found this

particularly so in working with issues around my father. Of course, I could

not WILL forgiveness. One day it just moved in. I think the most I was was

willing. I was tired of having a hardened heart.

 

These are my thoughts. Take what is helpful and leave the rest. We are all

on the journey.

 

In peace,

 

Mary Chris

[Guest guest]

Dear Caroline

 

I understand and 'feel' so much of what you said in your post to me. I

understand that " forgiving is letting go... taking back your own energy

so that the other person, who has 'wronged' you, can no longer use it by

feeding on your leftover emotions. " I know this inside of me to be

true.

 

I am writing this gender identity paper, and hopefully just finishing it

up this morning. In it, I've had to deal a bit more directly with my

questions of forgiveness than usual... to dig a bit deeper to see my

true feelings about all the ramifications of the deeds. In this paper,

I had to also deal with a step-mother who was very mentally ill and

tried to tie together all the individuals involved. I can objectively

see the fallability of the human part of those involved... clearly.

 

Forgiving myself, or perhaps, accepting myself, after believing other

people's problems for twenty years, is very difficult. Knowing how to

deal with a person who would do such serious things against another

person and act as if nothing had happened, is another. This is

something I've been dealing with since I was a young girl, and know it

is time to finish it up. One part of me has absolutely no problem with

letting go, knowing my energy will be absolved, so to speak, and free to

strengthen me. Another part of me is still that girl, and fears the

person and the situation enough to not want to deal with it...

especially directly.

 

Thank you so much, Caroline, for your time and your words. I would be

interested to learn more about your shamanic training and what you do.

 

Thanks to Redtail and Cathy and others who have been helping me with

this subject.

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

Hi Everyone,

 

I have been sort of following the

discussion on forgiveness. I've spent

a lot of time working on forgiving my

family and myself, so I didn't think I

had that much forgiveness to do. Then

this morning it hit me - I am angry and

resentful at 'god'! My idea of god now

is much different than it used to be,

but I still carry this feeling around

with me that god has not helped me,

that I was hung out and left to dry on

my own. I prayed hard starting

at 13 years old and the things that

were happening just got worse and

worse. I went through decades of

severe severe pain, asking god the

whole time for relief. Yes I can say

I am better now, but it's been 25

years! Who needs god when time

will just heal it on it's own. Like I

say, I have a different understanding

of god now, but I'm still carrying this

resentment. How does one forgive

god?

 

Linda

 

--- catoma wrote:

> Dear Caroline

>

> I understand and 'feel' so much of what you said in

> your post to me. I

> understand that " forgiving is letting go... taking

> back your own energy

> so that the other person, who has 'wronged' you, can

> no longer use it by

> feeding on your leftover emotions. " I know this

> inside of me to be

> true.

>

> I am writing this gender identity paper, and

> hopefully just finishing it

> up this morning. In it, I've had to deal a bit more

> directly with my

> questions of forgiveness than usual... to dig a bit

> deeper to see my

> true feelings about all the ramifications of the

> deeds. In this paper,

> I had to also deal with a step-mother who was very

> mentally ill and

> tried to tie together all the individuals involved.

> I can objectively

> see the fallability of the human part of those

> involved... clearly.

>

> Forgiving myself, or perhaps, accepting myself,

> after believing other

> people's problems for twenty years, is very

> difficult. Knowing how to

> deal with a person who would do such serious things

> against another

> person and act as if nothing had happened, is

> another. This is

> something I've been dealing with since I was a young

> girl, and know it

> is time to finish it up. One part of me has

> absolutely no problem with

> letting go, knowing my energy will be absolved, so

> to speak, and free to

> strengthen me. Another part of me is still that

> girl, and fears the

> person and the situation enough to not want to deal

> with it...

> especially directly.

>

> Thank you so much, Caroline, for your time and your

> words. I would be

> interested to learn more about your shamanic

> training and what you do.

>

> Thanks to Redtail and Cathy and others who have been

> helping me with

> this subject.

>

> Jo

>

>

------

> ****************************************

> To from , send an email to

> -

>

>

<HR>

<html>

>

 

 

=====

[Guest guest]

Hi!

I agree with that!

In energy terms; if you let resentment and other

negativity build up, you are actually allowing the

other person to dump his/her negative energies on you.

The only one harmed that way is you. To forgive means,

to release all that negative energy. And this opens up

space for fresh positive energies.

 

Olivia

 

--- Caroline Abreu <crow wrote:

> Hi Jo...

>

> So, I'll jump in, here. I'm in the process of

> writing a book chapter

> that partially involves this subject, and in a loose

> way, this is what

> I had to say about forgiveness.

>

> Forgiveness is for you, not for the person you are

> forgiving. It is

> not about condoning or colluding. Like unconditional

> love, it says

> nothing about personal feelings of right and wrong.

> You do not have to

> like the people that you love. And you do not have

> to agree with

> people to forgive them.

>

> Forgiving is letting go. Releasing is the way that

> you set *yourself*

> free from the residual trauma, guilt, pain, fear,

> anger, resentment,

> or whatever other emotional wraiths are pursuing

> you. Forgiveness is a

> form of exorcism. You are expunging the other's

> effects on you. In the

> shamanic sense, you are recapitulating, taking back

> your own energy so

> that the other person, who has " wronged " you, can no

> longer use it by

> feeding on your leftover emotions.

>

> Does this make sense to you? Forgiveness in this

> sense is a personal

> gift, and is actually vital for our energetic health

> and progress. It

> is the manifestation of compassion, recognition of

> the fallability of

> the human part of all of us. Not only do we have to

> forgive others, we

> have to learn to forgive ourselves. Often the anger

> we feel regarding

> past wrongs is frustration and impotence, the " why

> didn't I " or " why

> did I " that feeds itself in a cycle of guilt and

> remorse.

>

> Forgiveness is a spiritual practice. It is not easy,

> but it is

> profitable and ultimately very satisfying in a

> personal sense. It is

> done without regard for the other's feelings in the

> matter; in the

> long run, they can be living or dead, it does not

> make a difference.

> Your relationship with them is another issue. You

> may choose to have

> further contact with them or not, but once you have

> severed the

> emotional and energetic ties they have to you with

> forgiveness, you

> will probably find that it is a much less charged

> issue for you.

>

> Blessings,

> Crow

>

> catoma wrote:

> >

> > catoma

> >

> > Ok... I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but

> I guess I could just

> > use some more details regarding those of you who

> have responded to my

> > posts. Let's set an example up, and you tell me

> what you would think

> > best - for ALL involved.

> >

> > Say a child is mistreated by an older step-brother

> for quite a few

> > years. Many, many other things are happening to

> this child so that the

> > child can't get help from anyone in his family.

> The older step-brother,

> > even into adulthood, shows no remorse... 'worse'

> still, he acts as

> > though things are great in the relationship. The

> child who has grown up

> > must constantly battle within because of abuse

> done to him as a child.

> > Other people come into this person's life and

> there is more hurt, but it

> > is dealt with, non-judgementally and with

> awareness. The child who has

> > grown up holds no grudges against anyone but is

> extremely uncomfortable

> > with the step-brother, doesn't want to pretend

> everything is great,

> > wants to acknowledge it with the older

> step-brother and yet maintain a

> > distance.

> >

> > I agree that " forgiveness is the key and first

> step toward extended

> > peace of mind " as JED shared. I guess I'm just

> not sure I understand

> > what forgiveness actually is. C.Myss says that it

> is not letting the

> > other person off the hook. What is it then? How

> is it

> > shared/manifested with/toward the 'offensive'

> person? If it is not

> > simply excusing someone, then how does the

> relationship work... or not?

> >

> > I understand also that " a transgression is often

> the result of life-long

> > experiences that manifests itself in a manner

> whose intent is to cause

> > injury to the body, mind, or spirit. I have

> compassion for those who

> > would act in this way because they have not yet

> awakened to the

> > 'One-ness' of all things. They do what they do

> because they are unable,

> > or unwilling, to do otherwise. " I do understand

> this, but I really have

> > a hard time against crimes against children. A

> child, I don't think,

> > can understand this, and often has no recourse

> available. So much of

> > what a child learns, he/she repeats unconciously,

> when he/she is older.

> > If the child doesn't end up hurting someone when

> older, the child, in

> > the least, has to deal with some pretty horrible

> living nightmares in

> > finding their identity and their 'One-ness.'

> >

> > I am a firm believer in One-ness. I agree that

> forgiveness fits very

> > well in dealing with ourselves. I've experienced

> all of that and

> > understand it. And I also appreciate your

> opinions and learn from them.

> >

> > Thanks Mani.

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > > ****************************************

> > To from , send an email to

> > -

>

> --

> Blessings,

> Crow

> " Look for Rainbows in the Darkness "

> --

> Rev. Caroline Gutierrez Abreu, BS, RN, CHTP/I, CRMT

> ICQ# 4458763

> AIM= CaroCrow

>

> SomaChi... uniting body, mind & spirit with energy,

> movement & touch

> http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/5114/

>

> Make a connection...

> //

> Bodywork's your life? Join Body_Work...

> //Body_Work

>

>

------

> ****************************************

> To from , send an email to

> -

>

>

<HR>

<html>

>

[Guest guest]

JED wrote:

>forgiveness is the key and first step toward extended

>peace of mind

 

Ged writes:

I disagree: to me forgiveness is the final step in a long and complex process

of emotional healing that will happen in its own time and at its own pace

whether you like it or not. The key to reaching forgiveness is to let the

process happen, and it involves pain and anger and hurt and confusion and doubt

and blame and selfblame, but like a physical wound the scab will drop off to

reveal the healthy new skin underneath.

Unless you keep picking it or trying to pretend it's not there;)

 

David(?) wrote:

>Living well is the best revenge

I would only disagree if that leaves you living your life to 'prove something'.

Your life is yours and yours alone. Living is the best revenge.

 

 

>I really struggled through the chapter on tribal association

I haven't read it but I was reminded of a line from Richard Bach's Illusions;

it's in the other room so I'll paraphrase.

'Happiness comes from being with your family. Few families however are born

together.'

Or something like that.

 

__

Ged

[Guest guest]

catoma wrote:

>

> Thank you so much, Caroline, for your time and your words. I would be

> interested to learn more about your shamanic training and what you do.

>

Hi Jo:

 

Most of my shamanic training has been " formal " , with the Foundation

for Shamanic Studies faculty (Michael Harner's organization, the

author of " Way of the Shaman " ). I have done a lot of personal work,

read a lot, and have been blessed with the opportunity to work with a

couple of Native-led groups that have taught me a lot about myself and

ritual.

 

There are many different types of shamanism... we are most familiar

with the " indiginous " shamans, but there are certainly valid routes in

every ethnic background if you dig around... from Celtic shamanism and

African shamanism to Siberian and Southern European (such as the

Italian strega tradition). I am not associating shamanism with

witches, although in some traditions there is a natural overlap.

 

Shamans cross the barriers of " here " and " there " to walk between the

worlds for the purpose of helping and healing. It is hard work on many

levels, spiritual, emotional, and physical. But it is also very

rewarding work and brings our connection to the earth and others into

focus much more clearly.

 

The remarks I made about " recapitulation " are derived from a book

about a woman who undergoes shamanic training with the " Don Juan "

group in Mexico that trained Carlos Casteneda. The book is " The

Sorcerer's Crossing " . I have done some recapitulation work when on a

vision quest in Arizona several years ago. It's not pleasant. But

afterwards I really felt less " scattered " .

 

--

Blessings,

Crow

" Look for Rainbows in the Darkness "

--

Rev. Caroline Gutierrez Abreu, BS, RN, CHTP/I, CRMT

ICQ# 4458763

AIM= CaroCrow

 

SomaChi... uniting body, mind & spirit with energy, movement & touch

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/5114/

[Guest guest]

Hello everyone!

 

I have heard forgiveness defined as " giving up the hope that the past could

have been any different. "

The thing I struggle with is that once I have 'forgiven'

someone I find it hard to associate with that person and I end up feeling that

perhaps a part of me still is unable to completely wipe the slate clean.

 

Lucille

 

------------------

Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com

[Guest guest]

Luicile

In my experience of forgiveness. The person I forgave gave me a freedom to

be with them again. I had a release to love them again

Cathy

[Guest guest]

Hello All

I have found in my own experience that forgivness is a gift that you give

to yourself-a feeling or impulse that enters your heart when you come to

the place of knowing that harboring the old feelings of resentment and

anger no longer serve who you know yourself to be-those feelings may be

like a warm winter coat that no longer fits-it seems tight or

constraining-and although it is familiar you realize that it isnt

comfortable anymore and when you feel safe to toss it aside another feeling

will take its place-for me that feeling has been forgivness-

Sometimes I think we can get hung up on what forgivness is supposed to look

like-if I truly forgave this person than I'd want to be around them-I'd

feel none of the old hurt and all would be perfect-as we realize that we

shift not everyone shifts at the same rate or in the same way-we are all on

our paths-and forgiving someone may not make them magically into a

different person-as you know you cannot control anyone elses behavior only

your reactions to them-so if a person was abusive forgiving them may not

change the pattern-(it actually makes room for a shift to take place-as you

make a new groove in the carpet the energy can no longer travel the old

groove)but this may not happen instantaneously-so then we move to boundaries-

I feel that you can forgive someone-and truly know forgivness-be forgivness

and still not choose to be in relationship with the person-you can forgive

them for all the perceived ills they have caused and know that they could

do no differently and still not choose to enter into the same pattern with

them-you are now in choice-and your choice is coming from a very different

person than the little one that was hurt-

PEACE

Sab

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

At 08:05 PM 10/31/99 -0500, you wrote:

>lucille1

>

>

>

>

> Hello everyone!

>

> I have heard forgiveness defined as " giving up the hope that the past

could have been any different. "

>The thing I struggle with is that once I have 'forgiven'

>someone I find it hard to associate with that person and I end up feeling

that perhaps a part of me still is unable to completely wipe the slate clean.

>

>Lucille

>

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[Guest guest]

Dear Jo,

My thoughts about what Caroline Myss says regarding forgiveness are that

people are accountable for their actions and that they have to deal with

themselves and their attitudes and the consequences of what they do.

But if you (or a child) have been the recipient of those actions, you

can find a way to release yourself from what's been done. That frees

you and they are still accountable.

Love Nina

 

catoma <catoma

< >

Saturday, October 30, 1999 4:17 AM

Re: forgiveness

 

 

>catoma

>

>Ok... I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but I guess I could just

>use some more details regarding those of you who have responded to my

>posts. Let's set an example up, and you tell me what you would think

>best - for ALL involved.

>

>Say a child is mistreated by an older step-brother for quite a few

>years. Many, many other things are happening to this child so that the

>child can't get help from anyone in his family. The older

step-brother,

>even into adulthood, shows no remorse... 'worse' still, he acts as

>though things are great in the relationship. The child who has grown

up

>must constantly battle within because of abuse done to him as a child.

>Other people come into this person's life and there is more hurt, but

it

>is dealt with, non-judgementally and with awareness. The child who has

>grown up holds no grudges against anyone but is extremely uncomfortable

>with the step-brother, doesn't want to pretend everything is great,

>wants to acknowledge it with the older step-brother and yet maintain a

>distance.

>

>I agree that " forgiveness is the key and first step toward extended

>peace of mind " as JED shared. I guess I'm just not sure I understand

>what forgiveness actually is. C.Myss says that it is not letting the

>other person off the hook. What is it then? How is it

>shared/manifested with/toward the 'offensive' person? If it is not

>simply excusing someone, then how does the relationship work... or not?

>

>I understand also that " a transgression is often the result of

life-long

>experiences that manifests itself in a manner whose intent is to cause

>injury to the body, mind, or spirit. I have compassion for those who

>would act in this way because they have not yet awakened to the

>'One-ness' of all things. They do what they do because they are unable,

>or unwilling, to do otherwise. " I do understand this, but I really

have

>a hard time against crimes against children. A child, I don't think,

>can understand this, and often has no recourse available. So much of

>what a child learns, he/she repeats unconciously, when he/she is older.

>If the child doesn't end up hurting someone when older, the child, in

>the least, has to deal with some pretty horrible living nightmares in

>finding their identity and their 'One-ness.'

>

>I am a firm believer in One-ness. I agree that forgiveness fits very

>well in dealing with ourselves. I've experienced all of that and

>understand it. And I also appreciate your opinions and learn from

them.

>

>Thanks Mani.

>

>Jo

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi!

I know that it can be really hard, but you really have

to learn to forgive unconditionally. Just look at

things with a humorous outlook, kind of like you are

looking at a play, but are not a part of it. In truth,

the person you have to forgive, and yourselves, are

connected at some level.

 

Peace,

Olivia

 

--- lucille1 wrote:

>

>

>

> Hello everyone!

>

> I have heard forgiveness defined as " giving up the

> hope that the past could have been any different. "

> The thing I struggle with is that once I have

> 'forgiven'

> someone I find it hard to associate with that person

> and I end up feeling that perhaps a part of me still

> is unable to completely wipe the slate clean.

>

> Lucille

>

> ------------------

> Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com

>

>

------

> ****************************************

> To from , send an email to

> -

>

>

<HR>

<html>

>

[Guest guest]

REDTAIL29 writes:

 

> Forgiveness: I've done many things in my life that I would like

> forgiveness for.

 

How does that differ from absolution?

 

Chris.

[Guest guest]

Dear Sabrina and Nina and All

 

Some good thoughts here...

 

Perhaps not just getting hung up on " what forgiveness is supposed to

look like " - but that it's supposed to look like anything! What I got

out of C.Myss' book and have accepted for myself, even if it is mixed up

with my own ego and wounding, is that once I take my energy back from

that person, I empower myself as I couldn't as a child... much like you

said Sab. And like you said Nina in finding " a way to release yourself

from what's been done. "

 

Working through this crazy gender paper today, I realized how much I

wanted someone to stand up for me - some time. After I talked it

through with my husband tonight I realized that I finally could stand up

for myself, and that was enough. But I do think it important to calmly

confront, to justify feelings and the experience, and then let it go.

That's what I've gotten in my head these past few days anyway... thanks

to everyone writing in! Thanks so much.

 

I enjoy the meaty-ness of this group... no talking about what someone's

cat is eating or other side tangents. What I mean is that when a

subject is brought up, it is talked about in length and by many people.

It is such a helpful thing!

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

Arjuna said <<I reckon it's important not to try and forgive too early.>>

 

Some years ago, before I got into BodyMind stuff, a friend of mine got ill with

all sorts of

ailments, from bad dizzy spells to chronic IBS (of similar). He had gone through

betrayals by three

close friends. But always he forgave them, put it behind him, swallowed his

anger (note the

metaphors...!). His philosophy was to forgive and forget, but like Arjuna, I

think he forgave too

early - didn't work through his hurt and grief and anger, just ate them. I tried

to explain all this

to him, but probably because I didn't have the language - or maybe because he

didn't want to hear it

- he dismissed my ideas nicely, but very firmly.

He has been working on himself for years and years, and wants to live an

enlightened healthy life

and be Mr. Wonderful, but every now and then the mantle slips and the deep anger

shows through. It's

a shame to see him struggle, and to see his wife getting upset by his constant

illness and stress.

He is now getting stuffed all over again by another set of people, and continues

to swallow pills

and sit on the loo for hours a day.

Finding the right way to forgive, let go and forget is not so easy!!!

cheers

Arabella

[Guest guest]

There are other options to " swallowing " or " forgetting " or

" socking down " anger. As you said, if you do that it's going to

keep cropping up like a weed that hasn't had its roots dug out.

 

One good approach is to explore meridian therapies like TAT and

EFT. The part of a memory that is " charged " will not go away just

because you " will " it to; you need to enter a state in which you

transcend that part, let go of the charge. The grieving process

may work, if it is completed; in some cases it is very slow, in

some cases it is not completed. Spme people don't have a clue how

to grieve properly, anyway.

 

In some cases, well-meaning but ignorant others think a person

has been grieving " long enough " and try to stop them. No one

knows how long another person has to grieve.

 

However, if a person is losing their overall health to grief,

wasting away, so to speak, losing their spirit or obsessing, then

they might profit from trying an emotional releasement, either

the therapies I mentioned above or Radical Forgiveness

(forgiveness is not just for others, it's for ourselves and our

feelings of responsibility or shame). There are also energy work

techniques that focus on clearing negative thought forms from the

field (I had this done on me recently and I can't begin to tell

you how helpful it was) and then there is NLP, hypnosis, and

plain old talk therapy.

 

You were quite clear about what is " wrong " with your friend's

approach, Abs. Not only was he swallowing his anger, he was

refusing to acknowledge it or deal with it as a natural part of

the process, something that needed to be forgiven just as much as

the insult from the other person. That anger is still living in

his gut. Have you ever heard someone ask someone else, " What's

eating you? " He might believe he digested that emotion, but he

didn't kill it first, and it's trying to chew its way out of him

from the inside. Not a pretty picture, eh? Uncomfortable all

around.

 

As a reminder of those TAT steps, here is my page with the

instructions:

http://www.geocities.com/nrgbalance/tat.html

 

Blessings,

Crow

 

Arabella McIntyre-Brown wrote:

>

> Arjuna said <<I reckon it's important not to try and forgive

> too early.>>

>

> Some years ago, before I got into BodyMind stuff, a friend of

> mine got ill with all sorts of

> ailments, from bad dizzy spells to chronic IBS (of similar). He

> had gone through betrayals by three

> close friends. But always he forgave them, put it behind him,

> swallowed his anger (note the

> metaphors...!). His philosophy was to forgive and forget, but

> like Arjuna, I think he forgave too

> early - didn't work through his hurt and grief and anger, just

> ate them. I tried to explain all this

> to him, but probably because I didn't have the language - or

> maybe because he didn't want to hear it

> - he dismissed my ideas nicely, but very firmly.

> He has been working on himself for years and years, and wants

> to live an enlightened healthy life

> and be Mr. Wonderful, but every now and then the mantle slips

> and the deep anger shows through. It's

> a shame to see him struggle, and to see his wife getting upset

> by his constant illness and stress.

> He is now getting stuffed all over again by another set of

> people, and continues to swallow pills

> and sit on the loo for hours a day.

> Finding the right way to forgive, let go and forget is not so

> easy!!!

> cheers

> Arabella

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Arabella:

I've not been able to follow the posts for the last few days, but just

happened on this one and thought it refreshing. I agree.

If we go through a synthetic type of forgiveness, just to be liked, and

maybe because we're not too compfortable with our own anger (this one is big

for me) then it really is not forgivenss as far as our bodies are concerned,

and perhaps heaven is concerned.

I've stuffed anger for years, and like you said, had digestive problems for

years. I never thought of my " nervous stomach " as anything but hereditary

as my father had it and his mother. But when working with the Monroe Tapes,

a release and recharge exercise, I was able, in a meditative state to really

look at my stomach ache. It was really about the inability to say " no " , and

illness was my way out in many cases. The anger connected to that was huge.

Once I really " got " that, I realized that what was hereditary was my dad and

grandma stuffed thier anger, and need to be agreeable just like I did, they

taught me!! With that realization, I never got another nervous stomach ache

again. It's been 15 years now, and my digestive system is one of my best

friends. :-)

I still have problems saying no, I still get tense when I'm angry, but I'm

aware of it now, and thats the key. When you own your stash, your body

doesn't have to yell at you so loud.

love

connie

 

> Arabella McIntyre-Brown <abs

>

> Fri, 06 Jul 2001 22:40:53 +0100

>

> Re: forgiveness

>

> Arjuna said <<I reckon it's important not to try and forgive too early.>>

>

> Some years ago, before I got into BodyMind stuff, a friend of mine got ill

> with all sorts of

> ailments, from bad dizzy spells to chronic IBS (of similar). He had gone

> through betrayals by three

> close friends. But always he forgave them, put it behind him, swallowed his

> anger (note the

> metaphors...!). His philosophy was to forgive and forget, but like Arjuna, I

> think he forgave too

> early - didn't work through his hurt and grief and anger, just ate them. I

> tried to explain all this

> to him, but probably because I didn't have the language - or maybe because he

> didn't want to hear it

> - he dismissed my ideas nicely, but very firmly.

> He has been working on himself for years and years, and wants to live an

> enlightened healthy life

> and be Mr. Wonderful, but every now and then the mantle slips and the deep

> anger shows through. It's

> a shame to see him struggle, and to see his wife getting upset by his constant

> illness and stress.

> He is now getting stuffed all over again by another set of people, and

> continues to swallow pills

> and sit on the loo for hours a day.

> Finding the right way to forgive, let go and forget is not so easy!!!

> cheers

> Arabella

>

>

>

>

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> To , -

>

> All messages, files and archives of this forum are copyright of the

> group and the individual authors.

>

>

[Guest guest]

>Finding the right way to forgive, let go and forget is not so easy!!!

>cheers

>Arabella

 

You make an important point Arabella.

This an often misunderstood aspect of the heart chakra.

Forgiveness is the way of clearing our systems of those negative neuro

peptides that we create when we are angry, hurt, or fearful.

However, when the heart chakra is open it can lead to vulnerability as

well as agape.

When we are strong and secure within, then we can open the heart.

If there is any vulnerability we need to be able to pull back in a

protective mode.

The Eastern image of the lotus blossom on the lily pad floating on

crystal clear waters in the midddle of the chakra deals with this very

well.

The petals open and close depending on the need of the moment.

rusty

[Guest guest]

Hi Crow and Everyone,

 

Something new that has come along in the meridian therapies is

GuageWork.

 

Christine Sutherland of www.lifeworks-group.com.au says she feels

" GuageWork is possibly the biggest single advance in this field in

the last 3 years. "

 

Here is where you can read the how-to - it was introduced in the

monthly journal PowerTips (a meridian therapies journal) in June...

If you haven't read about GaugeWork, go to

http://www.lifeworks-group.com.au/power_2001_june.htm (also

http://www.lifeworks-group.com.au/power_2001_july.htm) and then give

it a try.

 

 

Caroline Abreu wrote:

> One good approach is to explore meridian therapies like TAT and

> EFT. The part of a memory that is " charged " will not go away just

> because you " will " it to; you need to enter a state in which you

> transcend that part, let go of the charge. The grieving process

> may work, if it is completed; in some cases it is very slow, in

> some cases it is not completed. Spme people don't have a clue how

> to grieve properly, anyway.

 

--

Janie

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