Guest guest Posted September 3, 2002 Report Share Posted September 3, 2002 Sometimes i will recommend it for acute psychosis. Otherwise, niacin is best taken as part of a balanced B vitamin supplement. I could see where some diabetics might like the idea because it does increase microcirculation. This is something that ought to be studied somehow. There are many other things that do this, and they are worth looking into. Generally, diabetics do best with lots of small meals throughout the day, with some of those being mostly protein. That's certainly not everyone's opinion, but it is mine based on experience. On Tue, 03 Sep 2002 01:01:58 -0000 rebecca_kapp <rebecca_kapp wrote: > New member: What is everyone's opinion on > nician for diabetics? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2002 Report Share Posted September 3, 2002 I have taken it before for migraines - it seems to open up the blood vessels and getmore blood up to the head and helps the headache... haven't done this in awhile. Suzi Michael Riversong wrote: Sometimes i will recommend it for acute psychosis. Otherwise, niacin is besttaken as part of a balanced B vitamin supplement.I could see where some diabetics might like the idea because it does increasemicrocirculation. This is something that ought to be studied somehow. Thereare many other things that do this, and they are worth looking into. Generally, diabetics do best with lots of small meals throughout the day, withsome of those being mostly protein.That's certainly not everyone's opinion, but it is mine based on experience.On Tue, 03 Sep 2002 01:01:58 -0000 rebecca_kapp wrote:> New member: What is everyone's opinion on> nician for diabetics?> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2002 Report Share Posted September 15, 2002 Hi Tom, Nicotinamide is just the chemists name for niacin. Same stuff. So your not having trouble finding it, just not used to the name. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2002 Report Share Posted September 15, 2002 No there not the same nicotinamide is artificial and does not work .Get niacin but take it on a gradient with the rest of your vita Tom Victim wrote: Can someone tell me if Nicotinamide is the same as Niacin as I am having trouble finding Niacin at the shops. ThanksTom - Organic Pets herbal remedies Sunday, September 15, 2002 5:01 AM Re: [herbal remedies] Irene Hi, No it wasn't me, ROLOL. Not really have much of a problem over here in the UK :-) Irene Hi Irene, I thought it was you that was complaining about the mosquito spraying for the west nile virus in your area. I could be wrong, maybe it was someone else. I was just commenting that the spraying is certainly more dangerous to everyone. Kathe Federal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and to prescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian Shillington Doctor of Naturopathy Dr.IanShillington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2002 Report Share Posted September 15, 2002 Actually, nicotinamide and niacinamide are the amide form of niacin which does not cause the flushing of the skin. In other words, it does not cause the capillaries to dilate. So if you are referring to the fact that you don't get a flush and therefore it does not work, then you are correct. However, if you are referring to it being used in the cell's energy production then you are mistaken as it does work for this. Don - tvogel1104 herbal remedies Sunday, September 15, 2002 7:38 AM Re: [herbal remedies] Niacin No there not the same nicotinamide is artificial and does not work .Get niacin but take it on a gradient with the rest of your vita Tom Victim wrote: Can someone tell me if Nicotinamide is the same as Niacin as I am having trouble finding Niacin at the shops. ThanksTom - Organic Pets herbal remedies Sunday, September 15, 2002 5:01 AM Re: [herbal remedies] Irene Hi, No it wasn't me, ROLOL. Not really have much of a problem over here in the UK :-) Irene Hi Irene, I thought it was you that was complaining about the mosquito spraying for the west nile virus in your area. I could be wrong, maybe it was someone else. I was just commenting that the spraying is certainly more dangerous to everyone. Kathe Federal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and to prescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian Shillington Doctor of Naturopathy Dr.IanShillington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2002 Report Share Posted September 15, 2002 This dilation of the cells opens them up so the cells can release stored up toxins and residual radiation which is stored in the cells . The flush is this phenomenon occurring and is, in fact desirable. A very interesting phenomena connected with this is that these flushes appear to roam. One day you might get a flush on the outside of your ears from old sunburns, the next day in the middle of your back. I've seen flush patterns of old bathing suit straps appear after taking niacin. The flushing or prickling sensations are important to your health. As you encreace the amount alonge with you vita you clean more out of the body yours Tom Donald Eitner wrote: Actually, nicotinamide and niacinamide are the amide form of niacin which does not cause the flushing of the skin. In other words, it does not cause the capillaries to dilate. So if you are referring to the fact that you don't get a flush and therefore it does not work, then you are correct. However, if you are referring to it being used in the cell's energy production then you are mistaken as it does work for this. Don - tvogel1104 herbal remedies Sunday, September 15, 2002 7:38 AM Re: [herbal remedies] Niacin No there not the same nicotinamide is artificial and does not work .Get niacin but take it on a gradient with the rest of your vita Tom Victim wrote: Can someone tell me if Nicotinamide is the same as Niacin as I am having trouble finding Niacin at the shops. ThanksTom - Organic Pets herbal remedies Sunday, September 15, 2002 5:01 AM Re: [herbal remedies] Irene Hi, No it wasn't me, ROLOL. Not really have much of a problem over here in the UK :-) Irene Hi Irene, I thought it was you that was complaining about the mosquito spraying for the west nile virus in your area. I could be wrong, maybe it was someone else. I was just commenting that the spraying is certainly more dangerous to everyone. Kathe Federal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and to prescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian Shillington Doctor of Naturopathy Dr.IanShillington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2002 Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 Hi you should get the book Clear Body Clear Mind by L Ron Hubbard and read it and decide for your self. Giving niacin to someone with out the proper balance can cause bad effects too. yours Ton Vogel Victim wrote: after reading this information I believe it may be the flushing effect that may best help my aging mother with her mental health problems she is going through,I have heard it is very good for restoring blood flow to area;s of the brain.does this sound like I am on the right track. ThanksTom - tvogel1104 herbal remedies Sunday, September 15, 2002 8:12 AM Re: [herbal remedies] Niacin This dilation of the cells opens them up so the cells can release stored up toxins and residual radiation which is stored in the cells . The flush is this phenomenon occurring and is, in fact desirable. A very interesting phenomena connected with this is that these flushes appear to roam. One day you might get a flush on the outside of your ears from old sunburns, the next day in the middle of your back. I've seen flush patterns of old bathing suit straps appear after taking niacin. The flushing or prickling sensations are important to your health. As you encreace the amount alonge with you vita you clean more out of the body yours Tom Donald Eitner wrote: Actually, nicotinamide and niacinamide are the amide form of niacin which does not cause the flushing of the skin. In other words, it does not cause the capillaries to dilate. So if you are referring to the fact that you don't get a flush and therefore it does not work, then you are correct. However, if you are referring to it being used in the cell's energy production then you are mistaken as it does work for this. Don - tvogel1104 herbal remedies Sunday, September 15, 2002 7:38 AM Re: [herbal remedies] Niacin No there not the same nicotinamide is artificial and does not work .Get niacin but take it on a gradient with the rest of your vita Tom Victim wrote: Can someone tell me if Nicotinamide is the same as Niacin as I am having trouble finding Niacin at the shops. ThanksTom - Organic Pets herbal remedies Sunday, September 15, 2002 5:01 AM Re: [herbal remedies] Irene Hi, No it wasn't me, ROLOL. Not really have much of a problem over here in the UK :-) Irene Hi Irene, I thought it was you that was complaining about the mosquito spraying for the west nile virus in your area. I could be wrong, maybe it was someone else. I was just commenting that the spraying is certainly more dangerous to everyone. Kathe Federal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and to prescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian Shillington Doctor of Naturopathy Dr.IanShillington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2002 Report Share Posted September 16, 2002 after reading this information I believe it may be the flushing effect that may best help my aging mother with her mental health problems she is going through,I have heard it is very good for restoring blood flow to area;s of the brain.does this sound like I am on the right track. Thanks Tom - tvogel1104 herbal remedies Sunday, September 15, 2002 8:12 AM Re: [herbal remedies] Niacin This dilation of the cells opens them up so the cells can release stored up toxins and residual radiation which is stored in the cells . The flush is this phenomenon occurring and is, in fact desirable. A very interesting phenomena connected with this is that these flushes appear to roam. One day you might get a flush on the outside of your ears from old sunburns, the next day in the middle of your back. I've seen flush patterns of old bathing suit straps appear after taking niacin. The flushing or prickling sensations are important to your health. As you encreace the amount alonge with you vita you clean more out of the body yours Tom Donald Eitner wrote: Actually, nicotinamide and niacinamide are the amide form of niacin which does not cause the flushing of the skin. In other words, it does not cause the capillaries to dilate. So if you are referring to the fact that you don't get a flush and therefore it does not work, then you are correct. However, if you are referring to it being used in the cell's energy production then you are mistaken as it does work for this. Don - tvogel1104 herbal remedies Sunday, September 15, 2002 7:38 AM Re: [herbal remedies] Niacin No there not the same nicotinamide is artificial and does not work .Get niacin but take it on a gradient with the rest of your vita Tom Victim wrote: Can someone tell me if Nicotinamide is the same as Niacin as I am having trouble finding Niacin at the shops. ThanksTom - Organic Pets herbal remedies Sunday, September 15, 2002 5:01 AM Re: [herbal remedies] Irene Hi, No it wasn't me, ROLOL. Not really have much of a problem over here in the UK :-) Irene Hi Irene, I thought it was you that was complaining about the mosquito spraying for the west nile virus in your area. I could be wrong, maybe it was someone else. I was just commenting that the spraying is certainly more dangerous to everyone. KatheFederal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and to prescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian Shillington Doctor of Naturopathy Dr.IanShillington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2002 Report Share Posted September 17, 2002 By the sounds of the way Niacin acts it could possible unclog all the blocked capillaries of the brain that so often happen as people age.I used to have a friend who owned a plastics manufacturing business for the medical industry and dealt with many top level surgeons.He was told to never eat margarine as the oils are not soluble at body temperature and therefore will just build up over the years guaranteeing you a nice dose of dimenture for your old age. Tom. - tvogel1104 herbal remedies Sunday, September 15, 2002 8:12 AM Re: [herbal remedies] Niacin This dilation of the cells opens them up so the cells can release stored up toxins and residual radiation which is stored in the cells . The flush is this phenomenon occurring and is, in fact desirable. A very interesting phenomena connected with this is that these flushes appear to roam. One day you might get a flush on the outside of your ears from old sunburns, the next day in the middle of your back. I've seen flush patterns of old bathing suit straps appear after taking niacin. The flushing or prickling sensations are important to your health. As you encreace the amount alonge with you vita you clean more out of the body yours Tom Donald Eitner wrote: Actually, nicotinamide and niacinamide are the amide form of niacin which does not cause the flushing of the skin. In other words, it does not cause the capillaries to dilate. So if you are referring to the fact that you don't get a flush and therefore it does not work, then you are correct. However, if you are referring to it being used in the cell's energy production then you are mistaken as it does work for this. Don - tvogel1104 herbal remedies Sunday, September 15, 2002 7:38 AM Re: [herbal remedies] Niacin No there not the same nicotinamide is artificial and does not work .Get niacin but take it on a gradient with the rest of your vita Tom Victim wrote: Can someone tell me if Nicotinamide is the same as Niacin as I am having trouble finding Niacin at the shops. ThanksTom - Organic Pets herbal remedies Sunday, September 15, 2002 5:01 AM Re: [herbal remedies] Irene Hi, No it wasn't me, ROLOL. Not really have much of a problem over here in the UK :-) Irene Hi Irene, I thought it was you that was complaining about the mosquito spraying for the west nile virus in your area. I could be wrong, maybe it was someone else. I was just commenting that the spraying is certainly more dangerous to everyone. KatheFederal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and to prescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian Shillington Doctor of Naturopathy Dr.IanShillington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 I take Niacin daily. I take 100 mg and have been doing so for around 9 months to a year and still get a flush (never as bad as you state). I recently switched brands when I ran out and am getting a bigger, hotter flush. I wouldn't go over 100 mg until that flush levels out and then gradiently raise the level. Marti JavaBoley wrote: > Hello, > I don't post very often but have been a longtime lurker > I noticed the post about Niacin and had a comment to share. I am > particularly sensitive to it and wonder if anyone else has had this problem. > I understand that a 'flushing' can occur but I get flushed, hot, and hives > to go with it. If I do nothing, then I am miserable and it will last for > hours. The only way I can get it to calm down is to take something like > Benadryl, which then will knock me out for the rest of the day. So now, I am > very careful about supplements and amounts of niacin. > ~Brandy > > Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:29:17 -0800 > " Dragonhealer " <dragonhealing > Re: What about niacin? > > No, you'd have to take sooo much to even get side effects. I believe it is > water soluble and flushed out of the body rather quickly. It is obviously > doing great good for you by your own account and you should pay attention to > your body, it is telling you the truth here I think ;-) > > Janet > > > Federal Law requires that we warn you of the following: > 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. > 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. > 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and to > prescribe for your own health. > We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as > they behave themselves. > Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person > following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. > It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to > be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. > > Dr. Ian Shillington > Doctor of Naturopathy > Dr.IanShillington > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 >>>Once I took more than the recommended amount of Niacin....i got similar to you... so what if you reduce the amount you take? Suzi >>>I take Niacin daily. I take 100 mg and have been doing so for around 9 months to a year and still get a flush (never as bad as you state). I recently switched brands when I ran out and am getting a bigger, hotter flush. I wouldn't go over 100 mg until that flush levels out and then gradiently raise the level. Marti Yes, i can take it in smaller amounts. The last supplement I had taken contained about 80mg, and that was too much. Now i take a whole foods supplment which only contain 10mg Niacin per tablet....you are supposed to take 3 a day, which I confess, I don't always get. >>>>>Brandy, glad to see you post hon ;-) Make sure you have " inositol hexaniacinate " derived niacin with no artificial anything in the prep, it is " flush free " . Shitake mushrooms are a source of niacin as well. Janet Thank you very much. I will definately pay attention to the type of niacin I am getting. I already have a blushing disorder, Idiopathic Craniofacial Erythema. I wonder if that has anything to do with the extra sensitivity to niacin. OOoh and I love Shitake mushrooms!!! I am vegetarian and cook a lot of things with all kinds of 'shrooms! Portabellos and shitake. So maybe I get enough naturally? ~Brandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 I once took 200mg of Niacin, and the heat got so bad that I fainted. I woke up on the floor - no idea how long I'd been out. I'm okay with about 50mg - I can handle more but only if I work up to it VERY gradually, and it would then have to be as part of a whole set of supplements. Lisa - JavaBoley herbal remedies Friday, November 08, 2002 12:08 PM [herbal remedies] Re: Niacin >>>Once I took more than the recommended amount of Niacin....i got similarto you... so what if you reduce the amount you take?Suzi>>>I take Niacin daily. I take 100 mg and have been doing so for around 9months to a year and still get a flush (never as bad as you state). Irecently switched brands when I ran out and am getting a bigger, hotterflush. I wouldn't go over 100 mg until that flush levels out and thengradiently raise the level.Marti Yes, i can take it in smaller amounts. The last supplement I hadtaken contained about 80mg, and that was too much. Now i take a whole foodssupplment which only contain 10mg Niacin per tablet....you are supposed totake 3 a day, which I confess, I don't always get. >>>>>Brandy, glad to see you post hon ;-) Make sure you have "inositolhexaniacinate" derived niacin with no artificial anything in the prep, it is"flush free". Shitake mushrooms are a source of niacin as well.Janet Thank you very much. I will definately pay attention to the type ofniacin I am getting. I already have a blushing disorder, IdiopathicCraniofacial Erythema.I wonder if that has anything to do with the extra sensitivity to niacin.OOoh and I love Shitake mushrooms!!! I am vegetarian and cook a lot ofthings with all kinds of 'shrooms! Portabellos and shitake. So maybe I getenough naturally?~Brandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2002 Report Share Posted November 9, 2002 That's ok....I love your opinions... Kim herbal remedies, " chinesemedicineman " <chinesemedicineman> wrote: > In the last few days, there has been a lot of posts on niacin. > This is my unsolicited view of reactions from niacin. > > 1. If you get a reaction from niacin, you are taking too much. > So take less, or better yet get your nutrients the NATURAL WAY, > from whole foods. I'm not sure the reaction is such a good thing. > > 2. One view about why the reaction takes place is that > you have taken more than your body can process( receptor sites etc.) > so the reaction is caused by excess niacin in the blood. > As the body absorbs the excess the reaction subsides. > > 3. Taking large amounts of supplements can cause imbalances > in the body. Humans are designed to get their nutrients from > digesting FOOD. Food is your best medicine. > Supplements, especially in large doses should > only be taken to correct a known nutritional imbalance. > > 4. If your body has a reaction to something, > ITS TRYING TO TELL YOU SOMETHING. > Why have you decided that you are smarter than 100,000 years > of evolution, or God's engineering. (you choose) > > 5. If you must take supplemental niacin, take less more often. > > 6. Niacin and other supplements comes from companies > that are usually one step down from the pharmaceutical companies. > > 8. If you insist on taking large amounts of niacin, and you get a reaction, > don't complain or get surprised, WHAT did you expect? At least you > know its working! > > Many of you will disagree with this list, that why its called > an opinion. > > > thoughtfully, > Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2002 Report Share Posted November 9, 2002 Absolutely Lisa! Niacin taken in larger quantities has the capability of burning up other vitamins such as C, D and some of the other B-Complex vitamins. When one increases the Niacin, the other vitamins need to be increased as well to compensate for this. Love, Doc Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.505-772-5889Dr.IanShillington - Lisa Belcher herbal remedies Friday, November 08, 2002 12:28 PM Re: [herbal remedies] Re: Niacin I once took 200mg of Niacin, and the heat got so bad that I fainted. I woke up on the floor - no idea how long I'd been out. I'm okay with about 50mg - I can handle more but only if I work up to it VERY gradually, and it would then have to be as part of a whole set of supplements. Lisa - JavaBoley herbal remedies Friday, November 08, 2002 12:08 PM [herbal remedies] Re: Niacin >>>Once I took more than the recommended amount of Niacin....i got similarto you... so what if you reduce the amount you take?Suzi>>>I take Niacin daily. I take 100 mg and have been doing so for around 9months to a year and still get a flush (never as bad as you state). Irecently switched brands when I ran out and am getting a bigger, hotterflush. I wouldn't go over 100 mg until that flush levels out and thengradiently raise the level.Marti Yes, i can take it in smaller amounts. The last supplement I hadtaken contained about 80mg, and that was too much. Now i take a whole foodssupplment which only contain 10mg Niacin per tablet....you are supposed totake 3 a day, which I confess, I don't always get. >>>>>Brandy, glad to see you post hon ;-) Make sure you have "inositolhexaniacinate" derived niacin with no artificial anything in the prep, it is"flush free". Shitake mushrooms are a source of niacin as well.Janet Thank you very much. I will definately pay attention to the type ofniacin I am getting. I already have a blushing disorder, IdiopathicCraniofacial Erythema.I wonder if that has anything to do with the extra sensitivity to niacin.OOoh and I love Shitake mushrooms!!! I am vegetarian and cook a lot ofthings with all kinds of 'shrooms! Portabellos and shitake. So maybe I getenough naturally?~Brandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2002 Report Share Posted November 9, 2002 I was trying to get rid of a headache at the time - it got rid of the headache alright, and almost my head with it LOL Lisa - Dr. Ian Shillington herbal remedies Saturday, November 09, 2002 6:05 AM Re: [herbal remedies] Re: Niacin Absolutely Lisa! Niacin taken in larger quantities has the capability of burning up other vitamins such as C, D and some of the other B-Complex vitamins. When one increases the Niacin, the other vitamins need to be increased as well to compensate for this. Love, Doc Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.505-772-5889Dr.IanShillington - Lisa Belcher herbal remedies Friday, November 08, 2002 12:28 PM Re: [herbal remedies] Re: Niacin I once took 200mg of Niacin, and the heat got so bad that I fainted. I woke up on the floor - no idea how long I'd been out. I'm okay with about 50mg - I can handle more but only if I work up to it VERY gradually, and it would then have to be as part of a whole set of supplements. Lisa - JavaBoley herbal remedies Friday, November 08, 2002 12:08 PM [herbal remedies] Re: Niacin >>>Once I took more than the recommended amount of Niacin....i got similarto you... so what if you reduce the amount you take?Suzi>>>I take Niacin daily. I take 100 mg and have been doing so for around 9months to a year and still get a flush (never as bad as you state). Irecently switched brands when I ran out and am getting a bigger, hotterflush. I wouldn't go over 100 mg until that flush levels out and thengradiently raise the level.Marti Yes, i can take it in smaller amounts. The last supplement I hadtaken contained about 80mg, and that was too much. Now i take a whole foodssupplment which only contain 10mg Niacin per tablet....you are supposed totake 3 a day, which I confess, I don't always get. >>>>>Brandy, glad to see you post hon ;-) Make sure you have "inositolhexaniacinate" derived niacin with no artificial anything in the prep, it is"flush free". Shitake mushrooms are a source of niacin as well.Janet Thank you very much. I will definately pay attention to the type ofniacin I am getting. I already have a blushing disorder, IdiopathicCraniofacial Erythema.I wonder if that has anything to do with the extra sensitivity to niacin.OOoh and I love Shitake mushrooms!!! I am vegetarian and cook a lot ofthings with all kinds of 'shrooms! Portabellos and shitake. So maybe I getenough naturally?~BrandyFederal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and toprescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian ShillingtonDoctor of NaturopathyDr.IanShillington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 Gettingwell , " bollin772000 <bollin772000> " <bollin772000> wrote: > > > sometimes it is simple---most or all? > the B vitamins ,overused,can cause > nerve damage....that is often irreversible. > > A fatty liver is on the verge of not being repaired... > > it can just do so much.. Dear Group, Here is the views of most nutrirional experts. http://www.doctoryourself.com/hoffer_factoids.html Getting to the Facts by Abram Hoffer, MD FACTS AND FACTOIDS: An Information Sheet for Patients by Abram Hoffer MD PhD FRCP© Fact: Something that has really occurred or is the case: hence a datum of experience, as distinct from conclusions. Loosely defined, something that is alleged to be, or might be a " fact. " Factoid: A factoid is a fact that never existed before it appeared in print, but has been reprinted ever since. It is truly launched if it first appears in a reputable medical journal like the Journal of the American Medical Association and republished in the New York Times which gives it international stature. A factoid, using simple Anglo Saxon terminology, is a lie, and like many lies and misconceptions, once it has been published develops a life of its own and is reprinted over and over, from textbook to textbook. The best example is the lie (factoid) that vitamin C causes kidney stones. There is a close and intimate relationship between these definitions and the battle between the former vitamins-as-prevention and the current vitamins-as-treatment paradigms. A paradigm consists of a system of beliefs which are generally accepted by the supporters of the paradigm, usually a majority of the scientific establishment if we are considering medicine and science. It is a combination of facts and factoids, but the supporters of the paradigm will support both facts and factoids with equal fervor. Pirsig wrote, " You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kind of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas and goals are in doubt " . In most cases the facts and factoids comprising the paradigm are not properly labeled, and factoids will be accepted as facts. The paradigm is replaced in time by a new paradigm when enough of the factoids present in the original paradigm are either destroyed by new evidence or data or become facts by the accumulation of new data, new observations. A factoid may become a fact, but a fact can never revert to a factoid. Factoids about vitamins are rampant on the internet because there is no editorial control as there are in the journals. In journals statements are expected to be derived from previous publications and from data. On the internet they do not need any basis since they are merely ideas put forward by the writers. The internet also contains discussions of facts designed to explode the factoids. Other public media use either facts or factoids, depending on the current public opinion. If the opinion is positive for vitamins, facts are most often published. If the public opinion is judged to be negative, factoids receive easy publication. Evidence Required to Establish Facts in Clinical Medicine Clinical facts are based on clinical observations made by a clinician who can draw careful and honest conclusions from clinical data. These are one-to-one observations, patient and doctor. These kind of observations have fallen into disfavor with the medical establishment and are labeled anecdotal. These clinical trials are basic to the whole field of medicine because no therapeutic trials will ever be undertaken until one or more physicians find that the treatment has some value, even even if only for a few patients. The clinical observations are reinforced by special ways of collecting the data called controlled clinical trials. 1) Historical controls - A number of patients are given the treatment and the outcome of treatment over the follow-up period is compared with the expected outcome based upon the history of that disease as established by many observers. Thus if a disease kills every patient and if a treatment saves half of them over the same follow-up period, then one will conclude that the treatment had value. This is the traditional way of running therapeutic trials. This is the least expensive way of testing treatments but is no longer considered scientific. 2) Controlled comparison therapeutic trials based on probability theory and the need for equal samples of patients from the treatment and the control (no treatment) group. This is similar to the first method except that it uses current controls, not historical controls. The decisions as to whether the patients will receive the control treatment, i.e. no treatment, or the research treatment, is based on random selection to remove bias. 3) Prospective single blind controlled therapeutic trials. With these experiments the investigators and evaluators of the results of treatment know whether the patients got the research treatment or the control treatment but the patients are not told. That, of course, does not mean that they do not know. 4) Prospective double blind randomized double blind therapeutic trials. In these trials the treatment is allocated by random selection and neither the patients nor the investigators know from which group each patient is derived. Under my direction Psychiatric Services Branch, Department of Public Health, Saskatchewan, conducted the first psychiatric controlled trials of this type, completing six between 1952 and 1960. We compared the therapeutic effect of vitamin B-3 (niacin and niacinamide) against placebo in schizophrenic patients. In this way I contributed to the development of a method which is now the gold standard but which has never been calibrated, i.e. shown to do what it is supposed to do. It is an awkward, very costly method best suited for institutions with a lot of money and little imagination, and meets the needs of the U.S. FDA and Health Protection Branch in Canada, medical journals and granting agencies. It is a treatment trial which probably is not as valuable as the direct clinical examination which is so derided today as anecdotal. However, fewer than one-quarter of the treatments commonly used in medicine and surgery have been tested in this way. Evidence Required to Establish Factoids in Clinical Medicine No evidence is required. When discussing side effects and toxicity a whole new set of variables are introduced. For establishing toxicity no controlled trials are needed. The originators of the factoids may develop their factoid on the basis of a theoretical examination of the literature, or it may arise from their own bias against a treatment. It often arises out of faulty experiments which later can not be confirmed. Thus critics of a new treatment demand that the proponents provide airtight facts based upon a large number of double blind controlled experiments, but they will also attack the use of the treatment based upon toxicity for which there is no basis. One of the best examples of this occurred when it was concluded that folic acid would decrease the incidence of congenital abnormalities. The publication of this fact, which it is now, was followed by a series of irate letters in the medical journals written by physicians who bemoaned the fact that these tiny amounts of folic acid would be toxic. We hear no more of this now. The factoid about toxicity has vanished and the fact of its efficacy remains. A recent example is the statement by oncologists that antioxidants (by which they usually mean vitamin C) will decrease the therapeutic value of chemotherapy for treating cancer. In fact there are no clinical series which show that the patients given vitamin C and chemotherapy fare worse than those not given this vitamin. On the contrary, all the published series show just the opposite. I have treated over 1130 cases with large doses of vitamin C and most of them had chemotherapy. I have examined the follow-up data and find that the mean difference on prolongation of life was heavily in favor of the use of the vitamins. Recently Prasad KN et al, after reviewing seventy-one scientific papers found no evidence that antioxidants interfered with the therapeutic effect of chemotherapy. Even earlier Simone CB et al, on the basis of a large number of clinical studies (he also examined seventy-one scientific papers) came to the same conclusion. Not one subject reported a worsening of symptoms. He concluded, " ...cancer patients should modify their lifestyles using the Ten Point Plan, which included modifying nutritional factors and taking certain vitamins and minerals especially if they are receiving chemotherapy, and/or radiation. " (The emphasis of this last part of the sentence is mine). Labriola et al concluded that vitamin C may prevent the therapeutic effect of chemotherapy if given concurrently and recommended that antioxidants be withheld until after the chemotherapy is completed. He based his conclusion on one case. His report elicited three rebuttals, Reilly, Gignac, and Lamson and Brignall. I will not repeat the arguments but it was evident that Dr. Labriola was not convinced by the points put forward by Reilly and Gignac. I think the factoid repeated by Dr. Labriola would have a much better chance of becoming a fact if he had considered the following points: (1) What is the therapeutic value of chemotherapy without any antioxidants? Even within the field of standard oncology there is a debate whether chemotherapy has any merit except for a small number of cancers, Moss15. Before one can claim that a treatment has been inhibited, surely there must be pretty good evidence that the treatment has any merit to begin with. It is possible (we do not know the probability for this) that chemotherapy interferes with the therapeutic value of the antioxidants. Almost all the studies testing large doses of vitamin C yielded positive results while there is no such unanimity with respect to chemotherapy. (2) The difference between possibility and probability. Most people do not distinguish between these two. Theoretically anything is possible, and it is certainly possible that taking vitamin C might prevent the toxic beneficial effect of chemotherapy. In the same way when one buys a lottery ticket it is possible they may win. People confuse these two terms, which is why lotteries are so popular. The relevant statistic is the probability. What is the probability that patients receiving vitamin C during their chemotherapy will not fare as well? The lottery ticket may give one a probability of winning of one in a million and the possibility that vitamin C may prevent the therapeutic effect of chemotherapy may be equally low. We can only assume from the literature reviewed by Simone, by Prasad, by Lamson and Brignall, and more recently by Moss, that the real probability must be extremely low. As I have pointed out earlier, I have seen no evidence that adding vitamin C inhibited the therapeutic effect of chemotherapy. Just the opposite. Patients on my orthomolecular program live substantially longer and about 40 percent achieved over four year cure rates. (3) If he had not tried to bolster his argument by referring so frequently to the peer reviewed journal in which his paper appeared. This is certainly no guarantee of fact. The first factoid that vitamin C caused kidney stones appeared in eminently peer-reviewed journals. All the factoids regarding vitamins appeared first in peer reviewed journals. I can assure you that articles attacking the use of vitamins have very ready access to peer-reviewed journals. But they would not have accepted the report had they tried to conclude from one patient that vitamin C taken during chemotherapy was therapeutic. This would not even be sent to the peer review committee because they do not accept anecdotes - unless of course they consider them scientific because they contain something adverse against vitamins. (4) Moss points out that oncologists have no objection to using xenobiotic antioxidants during chemotherapy. This includes Amifostine which decreases the toxicity of radiation but is too toxic on its own and is not used; Mesna, a drug used around the world to protect against the toxic side effects of ifosfamide which damages the urinary system; and Cardiozane, which counters Adriamycin's toxicity. There are over 500 papers showing the safety of Cardiozane. In one clinical trial using a drug similar to Adriamycin one-quarter of the patients suffered damage to their hearts. When given Cardiozane concurrently only 7% did. Thus it appears that only orthomolecular or natural antioxidants are potentially dangerous. Synthetic antioxidants protect against the toxic effect of drugs but do not increase their therapeutic value. In sharp contrast, natural antioxidants not only protect against the toxic effect of drugs but also increase their efficacy in destroying cancer cells. (5) Dr. Labroila emphasizes that long term studies must be used. I agree and for this reason I have followed up my patients since 1977. In my series, hardly any patients receiving chemotherapy but no antioxidants survived very long. But chemotherapy is used by many oncologists who know it will not extend life because there is nothing else that they can do and they feel they have to do something. In conclusion, as the proponents of the old paradigm see it, facts are facts only after double blind controlled experiments conducted by the right investigators from the correct school and published in the correct medical journals. Factoids can be thought up by anyone and immediately become facts in the profession if the factoid attacks the evidence against the new paradigm. Current Factoids: About Megadose Vitamin C These factoids are based upon hypotheses. There is no clinical data to support any of them and almost all studies show that they are not true or real. They are not supported by any studies. - causes kidney stones, - causes kidney damage, - causes pernicious anemia, - decreases fertility in women, - causes liver damage, - causes iron overload and toxicity, - is dangerous for diabetics by interfering with glucose tests, - causes cancer, - inhibits chemotherapy, - prevents radiation from being effective - prevented Linus Pauling from living longer - prevents surgical scars from healing. I should have used weasel terms - instead of " causes " by writing " may cause. " Because using the word may allows the proponent of the factoid to leave the suggestion that these factoids are true but leaves an escape path in case they turn out not to be true. The author can then claim, " well I did not say that these factors were true. I merely suggested that they might be true. " There is the usual confusion of probability and possibility. If a phenomenon occurs once out of a million tries the probability is one out of a million, but there is no value attached to the possibility. It is indeed possible. Again, the enormous sale of lottery tickets depends upon confusing the public in this way. Or looked at in another way, if the probability of winning a lottery is one in ten million if one buys one ticket, and the probability is zero if one does not buy the ticket, then one can say that dividing the ratio one in ten million by zero yields the enormous probability of infinity that one will win the lottery. Any number divided by zero yields infinitesimal large values. Critics of megavitamin therapy never give any probability values since they know they are close to zero. About Megadose Niacin The factoid niacin causes liver damage is analyzed thoroughly by William Parsons Jr, who shows that niacin will often increase liver function tests but that these increases do not arise from liver pathology. Since I began using megadoses of this vitamin in 1952 I have seen a few cases of obstructive-type jaundice which cleared when niacin was stopped, and in one case I had to resume the use of niacin because the patient's schizophrenia recurred. He recovered and the jaundice did not recur. I have seen so few cases of jaundice that there is little evidence that the jaundice arose from the use of the niacin. Jaundice has a natural occurrence rate and from any series of patients a few will get jaundice from other factors. In rare cases too much niacin causes nausea and vomiting, and if this persists because the niacin is not decreased or stopped the dehydration might be a factor. I have seen no cases in the past fifteen years. The main danger from taking niacin is not jaundice, it is that people will live longer. Factoids in the Making It is very interesting, even if frustrating, to witness the manufacture of factoids. A new one may soon be born. It is that niacin is dangerous because it increases the plasma homocysteine levels. Garg et al reported that niacin increased homocysteine levels. Apparently no other B vitamins were given. After a tough battle for acceptance the homocysteine findings are recognized as playing a role in atherosclerotic heart disease. But the reduction in the abnormal cholesterol levels and the increase in HDL decreases the risk if heart disease. The Coronary Drug Study, Canner et al, showed that over a fifteen year follow up mortality was decreased by 11% by niacin and longevity increased by two years. In this study niacin was used as a drug which lowered elevated cholesterol levels. No other vitamins were used. Garg et al are aware of this. They referred to the report by Basu et al that the niacin induced increase in homocysteine levels did not interfere with its normalizing effect on blood lipids. And they pose the question whether it would be beneficial for patients on long term niacin treatment to take other B vitamins such as folic acid. My answer is that of course it would be beneficial, and since 1965 I have routinely given my patients one of the B-complex formulations such as B-complex 50's or 100's. These provide pyridoxine, folic acid and vitamin B-12 as well as other vitamins. Adding these vitamins inevitably will be beneficial since the other vitamins have therapeutic properties of their own in addition to keeping homocysteine levels from going too high. But even niacin alone was beneficial, not harmful. And this confirms what I have seen since 1952 when Ibegan to used megadoses of niacin and niacinamide for schizophrenia and for other conditions, including elevated cholesterol levels and arthritis. The authors did not invent any factoid but it is highly probable that some of the readers of that report will ignore almost the whole report except that niacin elevates homocysteine and therefore will increase the risk of heart disease. You will soon see this factoid repeated endlessly. Niacin is a methyl acceptor and this may be the mechanism which leads to the elevation of homocysteine levels. Niacinamide is also a methyl acceptor but it has no effect on blood lipid levels. Its effect on homocysteine levels is not known but there is no evidence that it reduces life expectancy. On the contrary, it has great value in the treatment of senile states, both physical and mental, and in my series, if anything, tended to prolong life. Kaufman had studied the use of this vitamin for the arthritides before 1950 and had published two books describing his remarkable results. Since that time this vitamin has been a very important component of the orthomolecular regimen for treating arthritis. Dr William Kaufman, my long term friend, died a few days ago (August 2000) at age 89. His very important work remains mostly ignored even after a double blind study showed him to be correct. But Garg's report does raise very interesting questions which will have to be studied. The first is whether the elevation of homocysteine is an important factor but only in subjects who are not taking adequate levels of the other B vitamins, i.e. are not well nourished in orthomolecular terms. It is possible that in the presence of good nutrition the increase in homocysteine levels is not pathological at all and may even be beneficial. Another potential factoid was trumped up by the press and received wide attention in all the media. The press reported that Dr. James Dwyer, University of San Diego Medical School, had found that the carotid arterial walls had been thickened by 500 milligrams of vitamin C daily. The press report cautioned against the use of vitamin C because this showed that the arteries were depositing plaque. But Professor Dwyer told Owen R. Fonorow they had used only one measure and had not used two other measures which would have shown the degree of focal plaque called the plaque index, nor the velocity ratio to determine whether or not plaque interfered with blood flow. He did not say that plaque had developed. Dr. Robert Cathcart with experience on over 25,000 patients since 1969 has seen no cases of heart disease developing in patients who did not have any when first seen. He added that the thickening of the vessel walls, if true, indicates that the thinning that occurs with age is reversed. I have used vitamin C in megadoses since 1952 and have not seen any cases of heart disease develop even after decades of use. Recently Gokce, Keaney, Frei et al gave patients either a single dose of 2000 milligrams of vitamin C and 500 milligrams daily for thirty days and measured blood flow through the arteries. Blood flow increased nearly fifty percent after the single dose and this was sustained after the monthly treatment. They concluded that ascorbic acid treatment may benefit patients with coronary artery disease. This certainly effectively does not support the conclusion of Dwyer who did not measure blood flow. The Good News The opposite of a factoid is a fact. The good news is that as none of these factoids are true, the opposite is true. This summary statement is based upon literally thousands of published papers in medical literature and hundreds of books that have been published in the past twenty years. I can not provide references to these numerous clinical studies, but readers of the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine have ready access to the facts and also to the book reviews of over one hundred of these books. The internet contains a large number of excellent discussions of vitamins and, of course, the facts and factoids which are current. Vitamin C Alleged Toxicity Factoid (Lies) Fact Kidney Stones Decreases frequency Kidney Damage No Pernicious anemia Yes No Fertility Impaired No Liver damage Yes No Iron overload Theoretical No clinical evidence Glucose blood tests Interferes Not with modern tests Cancer Causes cancer Therapeutic for cancer Atherosclerosis Increases Prevents Chemotherapy Decreases efficacy Increases efficacy Radiation Decreases effect More effective Surgery Prevents healing Increases healing rate and decreases scaring Linus Pauling Shortened his life A ridiculous claim. He died age 94, fully mentally alert. Conclusion The factoids about vitamins, used in optimum doses when needed, are not true, are not based upon clinical evidence, do not have any studies including double blind controlled clinical data to support them, and are used primarily to attack the new paradigm, the vitamins- as-treatment paradigm. Be wary of factoids whether they are in print, on the internet, in the news media, on radio or on television. If you hear of any new factoids, please let me know so I can add to my collection. The unfortunate result of these lies is that patients are made fearful, some will stop taking their vitamins, medical costs will increases since patients want to see their doctor again to discuss these matters, and more patients will relapse. The harm done by these factoids is immeasurable, but fortunately is slowly decreasing as the population becomes more knowledgeable and sophisticated about nutrition and nutrients. In the same way that drug companies are not allowed to make false therapeutic claims about their products, we need a system which will neutralize the factoids as they are proposed. And above all we need the public media to become much more intelligent and less subservient to major papers like the New York Times. REFERENCES 1. The Oxford International Dictionary of the English Language. Unabridged. Leland Publishing Company LTD, Toronto, 1957. 2. Mailer Norman: New York Times, January 9, 2000. 3. Pirsig R: Zen and the Art of Motorcyle Maintenance. Quoted in Globe and Mail, Toronto, June 16, 2000, in Social Studies by M. Kesterton. 4. Hoffer A: A theoretical examination of double-blind design. Can Med Ass J 97:123-127, 1967. 5. Hoffer A & Pauling L: Hardin Jones biostatistical analysis of mortality data for cohorts of cancer patients with a large fraction surviving at the termination of the study and a comparison of survival times of cancer patients receiving large regular oral doses of vitamin C and other nutrients with similar patients not receiving those doses. J Orthomolecular Medicine 5:143-154, 1990. Reprinted in, Cancer and Vitamin C, E. Cameron and L. Pauling, Camino Books, Inc. P.O. Box 59026, Phil. PA, 19102, 1993. 6. Hoffer A & Pauling L: Hardin Jones biostatistical analysis of mortality data for a second set of cohorts of cancer patients with a large fraction surviving at the termination of the study and a comparison of survival times of cancer patients receiving large regular oral doses of vitamin C and other nutrients with similar patients not receiving these doses. J of Orthomolecular Medicine, 8:157-167,1993. 7. Hoffer A: Orthomolecular Oncology. In, Adjuvant Nutrition in Cancer Treatment, Ed. P Quillin & RM Williams. 1992 Symposium Proceedings, Sponsored by Cancer Treatment Research Foundation and American College of Nutrition. Cancer Treatment Research Foundation, 3455 Salt Creek Lane, Suite 200, Arlington Heights, IL 60005-1090, 331-362, 1994. 8. Hoffer A: One Patient's Recovery From Lymphoma. Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients #160, 50-51, 1996. 9. Prasad KN, Kumar A, Kochupillai V & Cole WC. High Doses of Multiple Antioxidant Vitamins: Essential Ingredients in Improving the Efficacy of Standard Cancer Therapy. Journal American College of Nutrition, 18:13-25, 1999. 10. Simone CB, Simone NL & Simone CB: Nutrients and Cancer Treatment. International Journal of Integrative Medicine 1:20-24, 1999. 11. Labriola D & Livingston R: Possible Interactions Between Dietary Antioxidants and Chemotherapy. Oncology 13:1003-1008, 1999, and Editorial to Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients, November 1999. 12. Reilly P: Dr. Labriola's Editorial on Antioxidants and Chemotherapy, Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients Feb/Mar 2000, 90-91. 13. Gignac MA: Antioxidants and Chemotherapy. What You Need to Know Before Following Dr. Labriola's Advice. Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients Feb/March 2000, 88-89. 14. Lamson DW & Brignall MS: Antioxidants and Cancer Therapy II: Quick Reference Guide. Alternative Medicine Review, 5:152-163, 2000. 15. Moss RW: Questioning Chemotherapy. Equinox Press, Brooklyn, New York. 16. Moss RW: Antioxidants Against Cancer. Equinox Presss Inc. Brooklyn NY, 2000. 17. Hoffer A: Vitamin C and Cancer. Quarry Press, Kingston ON, 2000. 18. Herbert V, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, National TV News. Shortly after Dr Pauling died. He also said that if God wanted us to take vitamin C tablets they would be growing on trees. 19. Parsons WB Jr: Cholesterol Control Without Diet: The Niacin Solution. Lilac Press, Scotsdale, Arizona 1998. Reviewed in Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine, Volume 14, 1999, 3rd quarter. 20. Garg R, Malinow MR, Pettinger M, Upson B & Hunninghake D: Niacin Treatment Increases Plasma Homocysteine. Am Heart Journal, 138:1082- 1087, 1999. 21. Canner PL, Berge KG, Wenger NK, Stamler J, Friedman L, Prineas RJ & Friedewald W: Fifteen year mortality in coronary drug project patients: Long term benefit with niacin. J. Amer College of Cardiology 8:1245-1255, 1986. 22. Basu TK & Mann S: Vitamin B-6 Normalizes the Altered Sulfur Acid Status of Rats Fed Diets Containing Pharmacological Levels of Niacin Without Reducing Niacin's Hypolipidemic Effects. J Nutrition 127:117-121, 1997. 23. Kaufman W: Common Forms of Niacinamide Deficiency Disease: Aniacin Amidosis. Yale University Press, New Haven CT, 1943. 24. Kaufman W: The Common Form of Joint Dysfunction: Its Incidence and Treatment. E.L. Hildreth and Co. Brattelboro, VT, 1949. 25. Hoffer A: Orthomolecular Medicine For Physicians, Keats Publishing, New Canaan CT, 1989. 26 Fonorow, O.R. www.vitamin C foundation.org 27. Cathart, R. Report to Fonorow www. vitaminCfoundat ion. org 27. Gokce N, Keaney JF Jr, Frei B et al: Long-term ascorbic acid administration reverses endothelial vasomotor dysfunction in patients with coronary artery disease. Circulation 99:3234-3240, 1999. 28. Herbert. V. Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, National TV News. Shortly after Dr Pauling died. He also said that if God wanted us to take vitamin C tablets they would be growing on trees. A. Hoffer MD, PhD, FRCP© August 29, 2000 Reprinted with permission of the author. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 Gettingwell , " bollin772000 <bollin772000> " <bollin772000> wrote: > > > sometimes it is simple---most or all? > the B vitamins ,overused,can cause > nerve damage....that is often irreversible. > > A fatty liver is on the verge of not being repaired... > > it can just do so much.. Repost of a previous message: Frank <califpacific Sat Jan 18, 2003 8:09 am B-Vitamins B-Vitamins http://www.doctoryourself.com/bvitamins.html B-INFORMED ABOUT B-VITAMINS The safety record of the B-complex vitamins is extraordinarily good. Since their discovery, beginning with thiamine (B-1) in 1911, many thousands of studies have verified an unequaled therapeutic value of these essential substances. Side effects have been rare, and toxicity is nearly nonexistent, even at the highest doses. Some cautions are in order, of course, and here are some of the most important. Vitamin B-6 (pyridoxine) has been reported to cause temporary neurological symptoms such as heaviness, tingling or numbness of the limbs in persons taking very large doses. It is very important to realize that such cases are not common, and when they do occur usually result from huge doses of pyridoxine TAKEN ALONE. The B-vitamins are a team, and work best as a team. Upsetting the balance by taking a lot of just one is like devoting all your baseball practice time to your pitcher. You might get a lot of strikeouts, but if anybody hits one, you are in trouble. No one player has ever won a World Series by himself, and no single B-vitamin can do the job that the whole " team " can do. B-6 by itself in doses of 2,000 to 6,000 milligrams daily (that's one thousand to three thousand times the US RDA!) can produce side effects and is therefore way too much to take. Very, very few persons report symptoms on 1,000 mg daily, and only the rarest reports go any lower. When taken with, or as part of, a complete B-complex supplement, B-6 side effects other than a harmless deeper-colored urine are virtually unknown. Premenstrual tension symptoms often improve dramatically with only a few hundred mg/day of extra B-6. There is no need to " push the envelope " and take thousands of milligrams when hundreds will do. At least 50 to 100 mg of supplemental B-6 daily is a virtual necessity for women taking oral contraceptives. The " pill " causes some abnormal physiological changes that create a deficiency of B-6, as well as lower serum levels of thiamine (B-1), and riboflavin (B-2), and niacin (B-3), and folic acid, and B-12, and vitamin C! (Wynn, V. Lancet, March 8, 1975) Laboratory animals receiving the human B-6 dose equivalent of just 75 mg daily do not get strokes, even when fed a lousy diet (Atherosclerosis, vol. 22, 1975, pp 125-127) Since women on oral contraceptives are three times more likely at any age to have a stroke, there is an important lesson here. B-6 deficiency produces hardening of the arteries (Rinehart and Greenberg, American Journal of Pathology, vol. 25, 1949, pp 481-496.) Furthermore, B-6 is necessary in order for your body to produce lecithin. Lecithin, a lipid- transporting substance from soy, has been used clinically to clear out fatty livers... and even clogged arteries. Another connection. Niacin (vitamin B-3) has been used in doses up to tens of thousands of milligrams per day for over 40 years by psychiatrists. It is an effective alternative treatment for severe depression, psychotic behavior, and schizophrenia. Most physicians have ignored niacin's usefulness until rather recently. Niacin has finally gained popularity as one of the cheapest ways to lower serum cholesterol. Changes in liver function tests have been reported in persons taking one to five thousand milligrams daily of niacin BY ITSELF. Three important points have generally gone unnoticed: 1. Niacin is much better tolerated when given with Vitamin C. Abram Hoffer, M.D. pioneered high dose niacin therapy back in the 1950's. He repeatedly published his observations that gram-sized doses of vitamin C greatly improve a patient's niacin tolerance. Dr. Hoffer recommended at least as much vitamin C per dose as niacin. With three thousand milligrams of niacin per day, then, one would need a MINIMUM of three thousand milligrams of vitamin C. The medical profession's unfounded resistance to large doses of vitamin C is embarrassingly well known. It is useless to blame niacin for side effects caused by ignoring expert medical advice on how to use it correctly along with vitamin C. Vincent Zannoni at the University of Michigan Medical School has shown that vitamin C protects the liver itself. Even doses as low as 500 milligrams daily helped prevent fatty buildup and cirrhosis. 5,000 mg of vitamin C per day appears to actually flush fats from the liver. (Ritter, M. " Study Says Vitamin C Could Cut Liver Damage, " Associated Press, October 11, 1986) F. R. Klenner, M.D. showed that very large doses of vitamin C (between 500 to 900 mg per kilogram body weight per day) can cure hepatitis in two to four days (Smith, L. H., ed. Clinical Guide To The Use Of VitaminC, Life Science Press, Tacoma Washington, 1988, pp 22-23). 2. Niacin is also one of the team of B-vitamins and needs any massive intake to be at least partly balanced with the rest of the B-complex, just like B-6 mentioned above. Would you pay for a tune up for your car and change only one spark plug? If you have several kids, would you feed only one? Would you pay for cable TV if there were only one channel? Taking only one B- vitamin is neither logical nor efficient. So avoid doing it unless there is a good reason. 3. Many, perhaps most, persons showing changes in their liver function tests upon ingestion of large amounts of niacin have been using alcohol. Accurate information about sizable alcohol consumption is very difficult to get from a patient: the more they use, the less they'll tell. Two thirds of all American adults drink alcohol, averaging out to be about three drinks per day, seven days a week, 52 weeks a year. If you do not drink that much, then somebody out there is drinking MORE. Alcohol does nothing if it doesn't hurt the liver. The French have the highest per capita consumption of alcohol in the world. They also have the world's highest percentage of deaths from cirrhosis of the liver. Working hard, the human liver can detoxify about one drink every two hours. Know anyone who drinks at a faster rate than that? Then marvel that they have a liver that functions at all. Alcohol is a drug, and consumption and abuse is more widespread and more serious than most persons imagine. Over two thirds of all hospital admissions of the elderly are alcohol related. (New York State Office of Alcoholism and Substance Abuse Services, Oasas Today, 1:1, Sept-Oct. 1992) The liver undergoes profound changes in both its endoplasmic reticula and its microsomal enzymes in order to detoxify alcohol. The unbalanced introduction of very large doses of niacin to an overloaded liver may well overtax an alcohol-strained system. This is likely where some changes in liver function tests come from (American Journal of Medicine, vol 86, April, 1989, page 431 and vol. 87, August 1989, page 248; American Journal of Cardiology, vol. 64, October 1, 1989 page 728). 4. Any hepatotoxic effects of niacin are almost invariably associated with the sustained release form (Journal of the American Medical Association, March 2, 1994). Sustained release niacin generally enables higher doses with less " flushing. " However, that warm sensation called flushing indicates niacin saturation. Sustained release delivery may therefore be hiding this sign that the body has had enough niacin at a given time. 5. Simply reducing the dosage reduces side effects. (Naito, H. " Reducing Cardiac Deaths with Hypolipidemic Drugs, " Postgraduate Medicine, vol 82, no. 6, November 1987; Figge, H. L. et al: " Nicotinic Acid: A Review of its Clinical Use in the Treatment of Lipid Disorders, " Pharmacotherapy, Vol. 8, no. 5, 1988) Since the regular " immediate release " form of niacin also is effective in lowering total cholesterol and actually improves beneficial HDL levels, why not just use the plain tablets? Take less, but more often, and you approximate the idea of a sustained release tablet, but with a lower dose. If there is a flush, reduce the dose. The idea is to be comfortable. It is better to be able to use less of the vitamin for a long time than to use a lot, have trouble, and quit. American physicians often over prescribe anyway, and niacin is no exception. Niacin is not a magic cholesterol bullet, nor is cholesterol the only factor in heart disease. Niacin is PART of the picture, part of the B-vitamin team, and part of a total health program. Granted, niacin is indeed important. This is shown by even our inadequate US RDA, which recommends many times more niacin than any other B-vitamin. However, persons truly seeking to lower their cholesterol need to eat more fiber, more vegetables (especially carrots), more vitamins E and C, and to exercise more. They also need to eat less sugar, less fat, less meat, and reduce stress. There are ZERO harmful effects (and countless side BENEFITS) in taking these steps. People who do not want to change their diet and do not want to change their lifestyle ask doctors for a pill instead. There is no such thing as monotherapy for cardiovascular disease. If there was, we'd all use it and be saving literally a million lives each year. Is it really that big a surprise that niacin alone isn't enough to do the job right? REFERENCES: Alcohol: Ray, O. and Ksir, C. Drugs, Society and Human Behavior, chapter 9. Mosby, 1990 (I'm sure most of the great book titles are already taken, so don't be fooled by this one. This is an excellent book: clear, fact-filled and well written. Highly recommended.) Williams, R. J. Nutrition and Alcoholism (1951) and Alcoholism: The Nutritional Approach (1959) may be out of print but are worth the search. Therapeutic Uses of the B-Vitamins: Bicknell and Prescott, The Vitamins in Medicine, 3rd ed., 1953 (This out-of-print work stands as the definitive summary of most all vitamin research up to the date of its publication. There are many thousands of references here.) Cheraskin, et al: Psychodietetics, Bantam Books, 1974 (A deservedly popular book, loaded with references.) Hoffer, A. and Walker, M. Orthomolecular Nutrition, Keats, 1978 ( " Orthomolecular " essentially means " megavitamin. " Good introductory work.) Pauling, L. How To Live Longer and Feel Better, Freeman, 1986. (Still the best single health book ever written. Here is a good place to begin you investigation of vitamin therapeutics.) Psychiatric Utility of Niacin: Hawkins, D. and Pauling, L. Orthomolecular Psychiatry, Freeman, 1973 (Here, in one big volume, is more information than most doctors ever want to admit exists on using niacin, especially in treating depression and psychoses.) Hoffer, Abram Niacin Therapy in Psychiatry, Charles Thomas, 1962 (This is what started it all; note the publishing date. Nobody knows niacin like Dr. Hoffer.) Hoffer, A. and Osmond, H. The Chemical Basis of Clinical Psychiatry, Charles Thomas,Springfield, Ill. (Even more in depth study of the biochemistry and uses of niacin.) Remember to try your library's Interlibrary Loan service to obtain out-of-print works. Copyright C 1999 and prior years Andrew W. Saul. From the books QUACK DOCTOR and PAPERBACK CLINIC, available from Dr. Andrew Saul, Number 8 Van Buren Street, Holley, New York 14470. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 Gettingwell , " bollin772000 <bollin772000> " <bollin772000> wrote: > > > sometimes it is simple---most or all? > the B vitamins ,overused,can cause > nerve damage....that is often irreversible. > > A fatty liver is on the verge of not being repaired... > > it can just do so much.. I am shocked that someone could post something like this. If the above statement were true there would have been a severe clampdown on B vitamins many, many years ago. They are recognized as so safe and the basic studies were done so many years ago, that there is little controversy today as to the safety of B viamins. It is pretty much taken for granted. FRom all the studies that I have read, the real danger for the average person is they are usually not getting enough B vitamins. Frank Here is a comment by Dr. Cathcart. http://www.orthomed.com/ The other thing is the comment that B6 can be dangerous. Yes, it can cause numbness and tingling, even finally a temporary paralysis but this is really not due to a B6 toxicity; it is an induced deficiency of other B vitamins causing beriberi or pellagra. Anyone in orthomolecular medicine knows that you never give large doses of B6 without moderate doses of the other B vitamins. If non- orthomolecular M.D.s would stop cutting vitamins, they might learn how to use them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 Yes, there is TREMENDOUS benefit in niacin, but little in niacinamide! Niacin truly DOES open the capillaries, and is especially beneficial to smokers, whose capillaries grow more constricted the longer they smoke. It also helps those with other circulatory problems. I can also attest to what it can do for the SKIN - it really improves complexions! Niacin has proven to be a miracle worker to many people with heart or circulatory problems, as well as some folks with varicose veins or hemorrhoids, all of which pretty much stem from the same problems. My FAVORITE use for it, though, is to combat panic and anxiety attacks. It's been used for about 30 or 40 years this way in very large amounts. I was totally incapacitated by these attacks about 23 years ago and they were destroying my life. My sister, who has her Masters in Social Work and does a lot of therapy, found a book by Carl Pfeiffer called " Mental and Elemental Nutrients " . It was incredible! People just don't have a CLUE how important nutrition is to the proper functioning of our brains. I have since found a far easier formula to take called BeCALM'd - it has a patented combination of amino acids and a few choice vitamins. It was originally developed and used in drug and alcohol rehab clinics before being made available to the general public. I've seen miraculous results with children who have been diagnosed with ADD or ADHD, too, but it has a higher effectiveness with adults and their panic and anxiety attacks. Also helps a lot with depression. I have this available on special order. It's a life saving product, IMHO, and I would not be without it. I don't need it all the time, but when I can feel things getting a little " tense " , well, it comes to the rescue every time. Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 What worked for me: I had a cholesterol reading of 310. I was told I had to take some cholesterol lowering drugs. I hate those system destroying pharmaceuticals so always try to avoid taking them; I asked about alternatives and told him I would consider the drugs next month. I had read about niacin, and was concerned about the side effects as well. I read more and more about this. I started eating primarily vegetables with a small amount of meat- more often as a spice. I began taking 500 mg Niacin three times a day. I still remember my reaction to the first " flush: " I thought I had suffered some horrible side effect that was going to be my undoing. But I toughed it through for about 15 minutes and the flush went away. I continued taking the Niacin following the same dosage for six weeks and returned to the doctor. I ate oatmeal and grapefruit often, and acquired a love for a clove of garlic a day. And I drank lots of tea. I asked him to take blood again to check both my liver functions and my cholesterol. He did. My liver was fine. My cholesterol was 167. That has been the case- about 167- for many years now. I do not always take niacin; nor in that high of a dose. But as little as 200 mg a day seem to obtain for me the same results still. I donate blood as well; which is my version of letting. That helps to lower some of the toxins I believe. Michael Oh: And what convinced me was the cost benefit analysis I did in my mind: Niacin costs me about 3 bucks a month; and I don't need a prescription for it. It makes me feel warm or hot for about 15 minutes sometimes. Am not sure but I believe those pharmaceutical alternatives are considerably more costly; and many times less effective based on the folks I have know who are taking them. and their side effects are far more dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 Do you know if the no-flush Niacin (Niacinamide) has the same positive effect? I used to *love* the Niacin flush & would take 1500 mg before I worked out on my Bowflex. But then I was told by my doc that Niacin was negatively impacting my blood sugars (I am a diabetic). So I switched over to Niacinamide. Alobar - " Michael " <mwood Wednesday, June 22, 2005 7:32 PM RE: niacin > What worked for me: > I had a cholesterol reading of 310. I was told I had to take some > cholesterol lowering drugs. I hate those system destroying pharmaceuticals > so always try to avoid taking them; I asked about alternatives and told > him > I would consider the drugs next month. I had read about niacin, and was > concerned about the side effects as well. I read more and more about this. > I > started eating primarily vegetables with a small amount of meat- more > often > as a spice. I began taking 500 mg Niacin three times a day. I still > remember > my reaction to the first " flush: " I thought I had suffered some horrible > side effect that was going to be my undoing. But I toughed it through for > about 15 minutes and the flush went away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 You can multiple smaller doses of niacin during a 24 hour period and have little or no flushing. Most nutrients should be taken in multiple smaller doses anyway over the course of the day. That way the body can absorb them and particularly with B vitamins so as to not overload the system all at once and to urinate them out. That is the way that nature intented. Frank > > > - > " Michael " <mwood@g...> > > Wednesday, June 22, 2005 7:32 PM > RE: niacin > > > > What worked for me: > > I had a cholesterol reading of 310. I was told I had to take some > > cholesterol lowering drugs. I hate those system destroying pharmaceuticals > > so always try to avoid taking them; I asked about alternatives and told > > him > > I would consider the drugs next month. I had read about niacin, and was > > concerned about the side effects as well. I read more and more about this. > > I > > started eating primarily vegetables with a small amount of meat- more > > often > > as a spice. I began taking 500 mg Niacin three times a day. I still > > remember > > my reaction to the first " flush: " I thought I had suffered some horrible > > side effect that was going to be my undoing. But I toughed it through for > > about 15 minutes and the flush went away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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