Jump to content
IndiaDivine.org

Pulmonary Fibrosis

Rate this topic


Guest guest

Recommended Posts

Guest guest

 

 

The correlation between certain diseases and certain patterns in

Chinese medicine is as old as Zhang Zhong-jing's Shan Han Lun/Jin Gui

Yao Lue. Whether those diseases be traditional Chinese or modern

Western is of no great significance. Diseases are nothing but agreed

upon constellations of pathognomonic signs and symptoms.

 

In my experience, it is by reading the Chinese journal literature and

case history literature that one gets a clearer idea about real-life

presentations in particular diseases. Typically, Chinese research

protocols are based around the multi-pattern presentations the

majority of patients exhibit. As a for instance, in diabetic

nephropathy, most clinicians assume there is a component of blood

stasis even though textbooks may not list a blood stasis pattern.

 

As I have said before in this forum, whether one believes the outcomes

statistics or not, the journal literature is hugely important to

clinicians because, typically, at the end of each article on a

clinical trial, the authors give the rationale behind their usually

multi-method protocol. I find these summations and explanations

extremely enlightening. They often make clear what textbooks fail to

elucidate. Again, each piece of the CM literature accomplishes certain

things. That's why the different genres within this literature exist.

They each convey a section of the circle. Therefore, to miss a section

of this circle (i.e., a genre of this literature) creates a blind-spot

in one's vision of CM.

 

Bob

 

, <@i...> wrote:

> Has anyone treated pulmonary fibrosis with success? I think I have

seen 2

> such patients. One was already terminal when he came to me, but he

did

> get some palliative relief. the other was unable to comply with

treatment.

> Both of my patients were exhibiting yang xu symptoms and were

treated

> accordingly. they also presented with blood stasis signs, which I

> attributed at least in part to lung qi xu >>>>> qi stagnation >>>>>>

blood

> stagnation. Purple tongue with distended sublinguals and widespread

> spider nevi on the chest of both patients. However, they did vary

in

> other ways and so did not receive the exact same diagnosis.

>

> This is interesting because fibrosis in other parts of the body is

also

> often found in patterns of blood stasis (such as many cases of liver

> cirrhosis).

>

> It also raises a question in my mind. I know disease presentation

varies

> from patient to patient and thus do our pattern dx. However, have

others

> noticed that despite differences, one disease typically presents

with

> certain patterns. For example, I find blood stasis to fairly

ubiquitous

> in chronic autoimmune diseases with rheumatoid components. The rest

of

> the presentation will vary, but the blood stasis is usually there.

Same

> with advanced hep C. In fact, it is remarkable how similar the

tongues of

> many of my hep C patients look (dark purple, fissured) and the

overall

> quality of their pulse (wiry). Or spleen qi deficiency in chronic

fatigue

> syndrome, food allergy, colitis. Or dampheat in IBS. I am not

saying

> that all cases are such, but just most that I see.

>

> In each case, blood stasis or dampheat is a logical result of a

number of

> different pathways and spleen qi xu a logical antecedent. I'll give

one

> example.

>

> Consider three hep C patients

>

> 1. yin vacuity leads to heat which decocts the blood and causes it

to

> become thick and sluggish

>

> 2. liver qi depression leads to qi stagnation which leads to blood

stasis

>

> 3. dampheat accumulation blocks the freeflow of blood

>

> All three would be treated with different formulas, but blood moving

would

> be an element of all the strategies.

>

> I want to reinforce that one should never make an absolute

correlation in

> one's mind between a disease and a pattern, but in many diseases, I

always

> look for certain patterns carefully in order to rule in/rule out.

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbs

>

> voice:

> fax:

>

> " Great spirits have always been violently opposed by mediocre minds "

--

> Albert Einstein

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Western is of no great significance. Diseases are nothing but agreed upon constellations of pathognomonic signs and symptoms.

>>>>Not in biomed. That is a syndrome. Disease is were a specific pathology is known

Alon

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Todd:

 

Just as you mention, there are many common s/s patterns in TCM 8-

Principle disease presentations. This is due both in part to the

underlying pathomechanisms of many disorders as well as to the

generality of the TCM diagnostic description itself. In pulse

diagnosis many pathomechanisms of diseases can present identifiable

and even unique patterns---consistent correlations that often define

a disorder independent of other s/s.

 

For example, in the three cases you cite below, nothing uniquely

identifies any pattern with the Hep C virus (HCV) even though they

are common TCM clinical observations in this patient population. But

often you can also see low level heat localized at the blood depth

of the liver pulse, even when the viral load is low and there are no

overt symptoms. Because of its distinctiveness, this pulse feature

can help identify HCV earlier in its development, before symptoms

appear. It can also be the deciding factor in cases where symptoms

are more vague and appear flu-like, show fever, stomach pain, or

fatigue.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

It also raises a question in my mind. I know disease presentation

varies

from patient to patient and thus do our pattern dx. However, have

others

noticed that despite differences, one disease typically presents

with

certain patterns. For example, I find blood stasis to fairly

ubiquitous

in chronic autoimmune diseases with rheumatoid components. The rest

of

the presentation will vary, but the blood stasis is usually there.

Same

with advanced hep C. In fact, it is remarkable how similar the

tongues of

many of my hep C patients look (dark purple, fissured) and the

overall

quality of their pulse (wiry). Or spleen qi deficiency in chronic

fatigue

syndrome, food allergy, colitis. Or dampheat in IBS. I am not saying

that all cases are such, but just most that I see.

 

In each case, blood stasis or dampheat is a logical result of a

number of

different pathways and spleen qi xu a logical antecedent. I'll give

one

example.

 

Consider three hep C patients

 

1. yin vacuity leads to heat which decocts the blood and causes it

to

become thick and sluggish

 

2. liver qi depression leads to qi stagnation which leads to blood

stasis

 

3. dampheat accumulation blocks the freeflow of blood

 

All three would be treated with different formulas, but blood moving

would

be an element of all the strategies.

 

I want to reinforce that one should never make an absolute

correlation in

one's mind between a disease and a pattern, but in many diseases, I

always

look for certain patterns carefully in order to rule in/rule out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

, " ALON MARCUS " <

alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> Western is of no great significance. Diseases are nothing but

agreed

> upon constellations of pathognomonic signs and symptoms.

> >>>>Not in biomed. That is a syndrome. Disease is were a

specific pathology is known

> Alon

 

But that is kind of after the fact. Western medicine had many

well defined disease long before it understood the pathology.

Just look at 19 century medical texts for numerous examples.

Many of these well defined diseases now have well understood

pathology and are diagnosed with objective means. But they

remain rooted in a constellation of signs and symptoms.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

But they remain rooted in a constellation of signs and symptoms. >>>Obviously all diseases have a constellation of S/S but i believe the definition of a disease is that there is a known pathology. Otherwise it is a syndrome

alon

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...
Guest guest

Hi Everett, & All,

 

> Have any of you treated the MWM dx of " pulmonary fibrosis " , and if

> so what general pattern differentiations does it tend to be

> identified with? A good chiro buddy of mine wants me to treat his

> father, and although I haven't seen him yet, what little

> information I was able to get definitely indicates damage to the

> Lung Yin and likely some Blood Stasis as well... -Everett

 

I have not treated it.

 

My understanding is that WM (and WM-vet) regards the lesions of

serious LU fibrosis, and serious emphysema with alveolar rupture,

as irreversible pathology, and that any Tx is palliative / supportive

only.

 

Any comments from other WM docs or vets on the list?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...
Guest guest

My father has been diagnosed with pulmonary fibrosis, would you know of any

treatment for this, they only give him days to live.....Nancy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

My father has been diagnosed with pulmonary fibrosis, he has lived past what

they thought, he eats like a growing boy, but he is on 21 liters of oxygen.

Everytime his nurse tells him or us that he is worse he pops back up and is

doing better the next time she comes in....is there any cure or help I can get

except for the chemicals they pour down him........Nancy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

, " natalie "

<angelina3684 wrote:

>

> My father is suffering from pulmonary fibrosis. They diagnosed him

in

> Feb. He has been on oxygen since. He got a lung infection in April

and

> it took him down really fast. I would like to know if there is

anything

> he could possibly take that is natural. I get tired of having to

give

> him all sorts of breathing treatments of morphine and abuterol. He

is

> also on predisone, lorazepam, atenelol, and something to help him

rest

> at night. He eats like a growing boy, he has always had a big

appetite,

> but he is just getting smaller by the day. He is in no pain and

has

> went from 2 liters of oxygen to 21 liters, they are trying to cut

part

> of that back. He is very alert. Everytime they say he just has

days to live, he

> bounces back and they are really shocked. I just wish I could find

> something to help him.......natalie

>

JoAnn Guest <angelprincessjo wrote:

 

Certain drugs can *cause* pulmonary fibrosis:

 

Certain strong medicines may have the undesirable side effect of

causing pulmonary fibrosis. Some of them are:

nitiofurantoin (sometimes used for urinary tract infections)

amiodarone (sometimes prescribed for an irregular heart rate)

bleomycin, cyclophosphamide, and methotrexate (sometimes prescribed

to fight cancer)

 

Hi Natalie,

 

I found the above information regarding pulmonary fibrosis contained

on the Canadian Lung Association site. If he has been taking any of

these I would discontinue them immediately.

Echinacea is always good for improved immunity. Also Mullein

appears to provide multiple benefits in these areas as well.

There are other herbs, however our message boards are currently down

and am not able to access all the files this week.

 

Blessings,

JoAnn

 

My dad was taking amiodarone for three years, his Dr. for his lungs

told him this was the problem, his cardiologist told him to stop it

immediately and he did. Thank you for your response....Natalie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 years later...

I have not dealt with PF directly but think your friend would definitely benefit

from doing yoga. Other wise people on this board can give your nutritional and

supplements. There are many pranayams associated with yoga to try. Most

exercises will be good to do. Bow pose is one of the best for the lungs. Cobra

is good also. Keep the elbows close to the ribs for best results with the hips

on the floor. Try out the poses and see which ones help the most.

 

GB

 

____________

my friend is suffering from Pulmonary Fibrosis.

Is yoga helpful in this conditions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mr. Riyaz.

Pulmonary fibrosis can be termed as Yapya Vyadhi, means the condition stabilises

with the use of medicines otherwise deteriorates. It will be good if u can

provide a decoction of vasa ( adhatoda vasica ) with tulsi leaves early on empty

stomach. The decoctions should be taken upto 200 ml. U can add some raw sugar to

it to decrease the bitterness. Pranayama will certainly help in this condition.

________________

> Pulmonary Fibrosis.

> Pls give some ayurvedic treatments.

> Is yoga helpful in this conditions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the reply...

can u elaborate on pranayama..

 

Also i am expecting experienced doctors to share their treatment experience with

us

 

____________

Pulmonary fibrosis can be termed as Yapya Vyadhi, means the condition

stabilises with the use of medicines otherwise deteriorates....

Pranayama will certainly help in this condition.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...