Guest guest Posted June 5, 2002 Report Share Posted June 5, 2002 The correlation between certain diseases and certain patterns in Chinese medicine is as old as Zhang Zhong-jing's Shan Han Lun/Jin Gui Yao Lue. Whether those diseases be traditional Chinese or modern Western is of no great significance. Diseases are nothing but agreed upon constellations of pathognomonic signs and symptoms. In my experience, it is by reading the Chinese journal literature and case history literature that one gets a clearer idea about real-life presentations in particular diseases. Typically, Chinese research protocols are based around the multi-pattern presentations the majority of patients exhibit. As a for instance, in diabetic nephropathy, most clinicians assume there is a component of blood stasis even though textbooks may not list a blood stasis pattern. As I have said before in this forum, whether one believes the outcomes statistics or not, the journal literature is hugely important to clinicians because, typically, at the end of each article on a clinical trial, the authors give the rationale behind their usually multi-method protocol. I find these summations and explanations extremely enlightening. They often make clear what textbooks fail to elucidate. Again, each piece of the CM literature accomplishes certain things. That's why the different genres within this literature exist. They each convey a section of the circle. Therefore, to miss a section of this circle (i.e., a genre of this literature) creates a blind-spot in one's vision of CM. Bob , <@i...> wrote: > Has anyone treated pulmonary fibrosis with success? I think I have seen 2 > such patients. One was already terminal when he came to me, but he did > get some palliative relief. the other was unable to comply with treatment. > Both of my patients were exhibiting yang xu symptoms and were treated > accordingly. they also presented with blood stasis signs, which I > attributed at least in part to lung qi xu >>>>> qi stagnation >>>>>> blood > stagnation. Purple tongue with distended sublinguals and widespread > spider nevi on the chest of both patients. However, they did vary in > other ways and so did not receive the exact same diagnosis. > > This is interesting because fibrosis in other parts of the body is also > often found in patterns of blood stasis (such as many cases of liver > cirrhosis). > > It also raises a question in my mind. I know disease presentation varies > from patient to patient and thus do our pattern dx. However, have others > noticed that despite differences, one disease typically presents with > certain patterns. For example, I find blood stasis to fairly ubiquitous > in chronic autoimmune diseases with rheumatoid components. The rest of > the presentation will vary, but the blood stasis is usually there. Same > with advanced hep C. In fact, it is remarkable how similar the tongues of > many of my hep C patients look (dark purple, fissured) and the overall > quality of their pulse (wiry). Or spleen qi deficiency in chronic fatigue > syndrome, food allergy, colitis. Or dampheat in IBS. I am not saying > that all cases are such, but just most that I see. > > In each case, blood stasis or dampheat is a logical result of a number of > different pathways and spleen qi xu a logical antecedent. I'll give one > example. > > Consider three hep C patients > > 1. yin vacuity leads to heat which decocts the blood and causes it to > become thick and sluggish > > 2. liver qi depression leads to qi stagnation which leads to blood stasis > > 3. dampheat accumulation blocks the freeflow of blood > > All three would be treated with different formulas, but blood moving would > be an element of all the strategies. > > I want to reinforce that one should never make an absolute correlation in > one's mind between a disease and a pattern, but in many diseases, I always > look for certain patterns carefully in order to rule in/rule out. > > > > Chinese Herbs > > voice: > fax: > > " Great spirits have always been violently opposed by mediocre minds " -- > Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2002 Report Share Posted June 5, 2002 Western is of no great significance. Diseases are nothing but agreed upon constellations of pathognomonic signs and symptoms. >>>>Not in biomed. That is a syndrome. Disease is were a specific pathology is known Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2002 Report Share Posted June 5, 2002 Todd: Just as you mention, there are many common s/s patterns in TCM 8- Principle disease presentations. This is due both in part to the underlying pathomechanisms of many disorders as well as to the generality of the TCM diagnostic description itself. In pulse diagnosis many pathomechanisms of diseases can present identifiable and even unique patterns---consistent correlations that often define a disorder independent of other s/s. For example, in the three cases you cite below, nothing uniquely identifies any pattern with the Hep C virus (HCV) even though they are common TCM clinical observations in this patient population. But often you can also see low level heat localized at the blood depth of the liver pulse, even when the viral load is low and there are no overt symptoms. Because of its distinctiveness, this pulse feature can help identify HCV earlier in its development, before symptoms appear. It can also be the deciding factor in cases where symptoms are more vague and appear flu-like, show fever, stomach pain, or fatigue. Jim Ramholz It also raises a question in my mind. I know disease presentation varies from patient to patient and thus do our pattern dx. However, have others noticed that despite differences, one disease typically presents with certain patterns. For example, I find blood stasis to fairly ubiquitous in chronic autoimmune diseases with rheumatoid components. The rest of the presentation will vary, but the blood stasis is usually there. Same with advanced hep C. In fact, it is remarkable how similar the tongues of many of my hep C patients look (dark purple, fissured) and the overall quality of their pulse (wiry). Or spleen qi deficiency in chronic fatigue syndrome, food allergy, colitis. Or dampheat in IBS. I am not saying that all cases are such, but just most that I see. In each case, blood stasis or dampheat is a logical result of a number of different pathways and spleen qi xu a logical antecedent. I'll give one example. Consider three hep C patients 1. yin vacuity leads to heat which decocts the blood and causes it to become thick and sluggish 2. liver qi depression leads to qi stagnation which leads to blood stasis 3. dampheat accumulation blocks the freeflow of blood All three would be treated with different formulas, but blood moving would be an element of all the strategies. I want to reinforce that one should never make an absolute correlation in one's mind between a disease and a pattern, but in many diseases, I always look for certain patterns carefully in order to rule in/rule out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 , " ALON MARCUS " < alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Western is of no great significance. Diseases are nothing but agreed > upon constellations of pathognomonic signs and symptoms. > >>>>Not in biomed. That is a syndrome. Disease is were a specific pathology is known > Alon But that is kind of after the fact. Western medicine had many well defined disease long before it understood the pathology. Just look at 19 century medical texts for numerous examples. Many of these well defined diseases now have well understood pathology and are diagnosed with objective means. But they remain rooted in a constellation of signs and symptoms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 But they remain rooted in a constellation of signs and symptoms. >>>Obviously all diseases have a constellation of S/S but i believe the definition of a disease is that there is a known pathology. Otherwise it is a syndrome alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 Hi Everett, & All, > Have any of you treated the MWM dx of " pulmonary fibrosis " , and if > so what general pattern differentiations does it tend to be > identified with? A good chiro buddy of mine wants me to treat his > father, and although I haven't seen him yet, what little > information I was able to get definitely indicates damage to the > Lung Yin and likely some Blood Stasis as well... -Everett I have not treated it. My understanding is that WM (and WM-vet) regards the lesions of serious LU fibrosis, and serious emphysema with alveolar rupture, as irreversible pathology, and that any Tx is palliative / supportive only. Any comments from other WM docs or vets on the list? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 My father has been diagnosed with pulmonary fibrosis, would you know of any treatment for this, they only give him days to live.....Nancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 My father has been diagnosed with pulmonary fibrosis, he has lived past what they thought, he eats like a growing boy, but he is on 21 liters of oxygen. Everytime his nurse tells him or us that he is worse he pops back up and is doing better the next time she comes in....is there any cure or help I can get except for the chemicals they pour down him........Nancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 , " natalie " <angelina3684 wrote: > > My father is suffering from pulmonary fibrosis. They diagnosed him in > Feb. He has been on oxygen since. He got a lung infection in April and > it took him down really fast. I would like to know if there is anything > he could possibly take that is natural. I get tired of having to give > him all sorts of breathing treatments of morphine and abuterol. He is > also on predisone, lorazepam, atenelol, and something to help him rest > at night. He eats like a growing boy, he has always had a big appetite, > but he is just getting smaller by the day. He is in no pain and has > went from 2 liters of oxygen to 21 liters, they are trying to cut part > of that back. He is very alert. Everytime they say he just has days to live, he > bounces back and they are really shocked. I just wish I could find > something to help him.......natalie > JoAnn Guest <angelprincessjo wrote: Certain drugs can *cause* pulmonary fibrosis: Certain strong medicines may have the undesirable side effect of causing pulmonary fibrosis. Some of them are: nitiofurantoin (sometimes used for urinary tract infections) amiodarone (sometimes prescribed for an irregular heart rate) bleomycin, cyclophosphamide, and methotrexate (sometimes prescribed to fight cancer) Hi Natalie, I found the above information regarding pulmonary fibrosis contained on the Canadian Lung Association site. If he has been taking any of these I would discontinue them immediately. Echinacea is always good for improved immunity. Also Mullein appears to provide multiple benefits in these areas as well. There are other herbs, however our message boards are currently down and am not able to access all the files this week. Blessings, JoAnn My dad was taking amiodarone for three years, his Dr. for his lungs told him this was the problem, his cardiologist told him to stop it immediately and he did. Thank you for your response....Natalie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 I have not dealt with PF directly but think your friend would definitely benefit from doing yoga. Other wise people on this board can give your nutritional and supplements. There are many pranayams associated with yoga to try. Most exercises will be good to do. Bow pose is one of the best for the lungs. Cobra is good also. Keep the elbows close to the ribs for best results with the hips on the floor. Try out the poses and see which ones help the most. GB ____________ my friend is suffering from Pulmonary Fibrosis. Is yoga helpful in this conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Mr. Riyaz. Pulmonary fibrosis can be termed as Yapya Vyadhi, means the condition stabilises with the use of medicines otherwise deteriorates. It will be good if u can provide a decoction of vasa ( adhatoda vasica ) with tulsi leaves early on empty stomach. The decoctions should be taken upto 200 ml. U can add some raw sugar to it to decrease the bitterness. Pranayama will certainly help in this condition. ________________ > Pulmonary Fibrosis. > Pls give some ayurvedic treatments. > Is yoga helpful in this conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Thanks for the reply... can u elaborate on pranayama.. Also i am expecting experienced doctors to share their treatment experience with us ____________ Pulmonary fibrosis can be termed as Yapya Vyadhi, means the condition stabilises with the use of medicines otherwise deteriorates.... Pranayama will certainly help in this condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 Here is a site that explains many pranayams. I personally think breath of fire would be the best. kundalini yogapranayam.html http://www.yogapoint.com/info/pranayama.htm GB _____________ can u elaborate on pranayama.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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