Intellectual Property Patent - Finally, One up for ayurveda

[Guest guest]

Intellectual Property Patent - One up for ayurveda

 

http://tinyurl.com/kqs2hq

 

Dr. Yadu

[Guest guest]

This is great news. When this unit will be available for Ayur Practitioners. ?

When will it be marketed?

 

________________________________

http://tinyurl.com/kqs2hq

[Guest guest]

Please don't claim that this has anything to do with Ayurveda, nor that it is a

new invention. Radial pulse tonometry was invented a long time back by modern

scientists, and there are hundreds of research papers published on it in the

mainstream medical literature.

 

Here are three commercially available radial pulse tonometers, much more

sophisticated than the above contraption:

 

http://www.omronhealthcare.com/product/1158-211-cardiovascular-assessment-device\

s-augmentation-index-pulse-wave-analysis-hem-9000ai

 

http://www.atcormedical.com/demo/03.htm

 

http://www.criticalassist.com.au/primary/abpm_24hr/bpro_system

 

It is a waste of time and foolish to re-invent the wheel, and claim that it has

something to do with Ayurveda. This type of thing only ends up embarrassing us

Indians.

 

Cheers,

 

Santosh

 

____________

 

Intellectual Property Patent - One up for ayurveda

 

http://tinyurl.com/kqs2hq

[Guest guest]

Dear Santosh,

I am confused - a friend of mine who lived in India for a while tells me of an

ayurvedic doctor (Indian) whom he met, who used pulse-diagnosis (by hand) and

was apparently somewhat impressive. He helped my friend get well and had an

endless supply of Indian visitors. I was told that this is a part of old

ayurvedic medicine. Has there been some confusion about this issue?

I would be very interested to know more.

All the best,

 

--

Natural Health - electronic magazine

www.oakebooks.com/ezines/natural-health

_____________

 

Please don't claim that this has anything to do with Ayurveda, nor that it is a

new invention. Radial pulse tonometry was invented a long time back by modern

scientists, and there are hundreds of research papers published on it in the

mainstream medical literature.

[Guest guest]

No need to be confused; scientists think that pulse can be assessed by analyzing

wave form in frequency domain. They are mistaken. Pulse sensations are

interactive, the pressure waves in radial artery of the patient and bio-energy

running in the fingers of vaidya interact. That is the reason, pulse

characteristics change during the session. Even during few minutes in which

vaidya is assessing pulse, the count increases/decreases. The decrease is a

positive sign for healing. Pulse exhibits various changes when under asessment

which vaidya correlates all the info to disease conditions. This is an art,

which can reach the perfection, after many years of learning.

For further details, please go through:

ayurveda/message/14430

ayurveda/message/7104

 

The assessment of the spectrum of the pulse wave is automatically done in

vaidya's brain. God has given us poweful spectrum analyzer in both audio and

video sensory system. What is unknown to many is that such a analyzer also

exists in touch sensory system. and like GPS, we come to know the coordinates

of the point where a needle prick was experienced, even with closed eyes.

 

If you search the net, you may find that even academically trained vaidyas could

establish the mastery on practice only after they learned pulse technique. The

randomness in the pulse is difficult to quantify mathematically by

electronics/softwares, but vaidyas can handle it with ease. Only problem with

pulse diagnosis is that the skill is acquired after practice, meditation and is

not transferable.

 

The electronic pulse sensors may be able to give some sophisticated look (and

more inflow of fee) to the ayurvedic practice, but their diagnostic help will be

of very limited use, since pulse is not just a oscillatory pressure signal

alone. Scientists were finding it difficult to belive aura, bioenergy,

magnestism etc. Now they have invented methods to map these. But alternative

healer knew about the existence through third eye.

 

Dr Bhate

___________

 

an ayurvedic doctor (Indian) whom he met, who used pulse-diagnosis (by hand)

and was apparently somewhat impressive. He helped my friend get well and had an

endless supply of Indian visitors.

[Guest guest]

Pulse diagnosis is not taught in college. They only teach about the various

pulse readings. This is a god gifted ability and one has to develop him or

herself this quality. I know an ayurvedic doctor in Mumbai who was able to check

your pulse in Mumbai and say what ails your kins who are abroad to the T. But,

this quality is not there with the doctors trained by him for years.

________________

 

....I was told that this is a part of old ayurvedic medicine. Has there been some

confusion about this issue?

[Guest guest]

Dear I am a Ayurvedic Practitioner and like to write my personal views. I have no

intention to counter any claim nor to claim any thing.

In my opinion science is that which could be assessed by all students and could

taught with logical base.

A subjective perception of pulse could not be termed as pulse science as it is

not possible to put once knowledge in words or in graphs.

In Ayurvedic text [ Charak, Sushruta, Vagbhata] only few sentences, a page or

two is dedicated to pulse examination. While describing details of diseases,

etiology, pathology, signs, symptoms, complications, critical condition, detail

treatment at different stages of disease is written.

Comparing the substance of Pulse examination in respect of given details of

diseases in the texts in my opinion Ayurvedacharya in ancient ages were not

giving much importance to pulse.

Pulse is a tool of diagnosis if is god's gift then pulse reader need not be a

Vaidya.

I think Ayurveda is a evolved science of medicine. The every principle in it

must be trusted and verified.

Vaidya Upadhye

http://www.astroayurvedalogy.com

http://www.astrotreat.blogspot.com

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

 

an ayurvedic doctor (Indian) whom he met, who used pulse-diagnosis (by hand)

and was apparently somewhat impressive. He helped my friend get well and had an

endless supply of Indian visitors. I was told that this is a part of old

ayurvedic medicine.

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

Thank you for your replies and for the information, which is fascinating.

I see that the confusion was all mine.

Best regards,

 

--

Natural Health - electronic magazine

www.oakebooks.com/ezines/natural-health

[Guest guest]

Let me point out to you the problems that a humble modern scientist like me

would have with this type of material. What I am talking about here is

emblematic of all efforts to claim scientific legitimacy for alternative

medicine without doing the real hard work and heavy lifting that modern

scientists normally must do. I illustrate it by asking pertinent questions

regarding some key quotes in the post whose link is provided below:

 

" Pulse sensations are interactive, the pressure waves in radial artery of the

patient and bio-energy running in the fingers of vaidya interact. "

 

What is this " bio-energy " running in the fingers? How does it relate to ordinary

physics?

 

" The decrease is a positive sign for healing. " ... " Pulse exhibits various

changes when under assessment which vaidya correlates all the info to disease

conditions. "

 

What is the empirical scientific evidence for these statements?

 

" This is an art, which can reach the perfection, after many years of learning. "

 

Is this learning backed by reproducible evidence, or is it just received wisdom

written in some ancient religious book? This question arises with respect to all

the rest of the claims made in this post, especially since God's name is

invoked.

 

Who discovered what he is claiming to be true? What objective evidence can he

provide for the truth of his statements?

 

" Scientists were finding it difficult to belive aura, bioenergy, magnestism

etc. "

 

On the contrary, scientists today have found out there are no auras and there is

no such thing as bioenergy. Magnetism was already known in the 18th century.

 

" But alternative healer knew about the existence through third eye. "

 

First, continuing to believe in non-existent auras and bioenergy is a delusion.

 

Second, why isn't the above assertion just twisting of metaphorical language to

conform to a preconceived bias? Would an objective scientist draw this type of

conclusion upon reading about the third eye? That it refers to magnetism?

 

Cheers,

 

Santosh

 

________________________________

 

No need to be confused; scientists think that pulse can be assessed by

analyzing wave form in frequency domain. They are mistaken.

[Guest guest]

> What is this " bio-energy " running in the fingers? How does it relate to

ordinary physics?

 

The explainations available in Post 7104.

 

 

 

> " The decrease is a positive sign for healing. " ... " Pulse exhibits various

changes when under assessment which vaidya correlates all the info to disease

conditions. "

 

> What is the empirical scientific evidence for these statements?

 

None. Reading pulse is like a Tantra procedure, 2% theory, 98% practice. Hence

other than few articles written by practitioners and

Book By Lad, not much written/scientific material will be found.

 

 

> " This is an art, which can reach the perfection, after many years of

learning. "

>

> Is this learning backed by reproducible evidence, or is it just received

wisdom written in some ancient religious book? This question arises with respect

to all the rest of the claims made in this post, especially since God's name is

invoked.

 

The effectiveness of pulse diagnosis evidence is in the accurate description of

patients state/disease by Vaidya. Good practitioners have surprised the

patients. Disease condition not mentioned by patient are discovered by vaidya.

 

The argument that Brihatrayi (Charak, Sushrut, Vagbhat) mention pulse technique

only briefly is true since the technique evolved later. The first Ayurvedic

classic to describe pulse examination is Saarangadhara Samhita (13th century

AD.). Later works such as Bhavaprakasa (15th century AD.), Yogaratnakara (16th

century AD.), Basavarajeeyam (17th century AD.) etc. deal extensively with the

subject. At that time, the pulse was compared to movements of the animals,

within the sphere of experience at that time.

 

An experience of a practitioner, Vd. Bharti Trivedi, having MD in both modern

and ayurvedic medicine is here:

http://www.amritaveda.com/learning/articles/pulse_reading.asp

 

 

> Who discovered what he is claiming to be true? What objective evidence can he

provide for the truth of his statements?

 

Science thinks something to be truth, since it fits well to the theory existing

at that time. When something contrary is found, theory is extended, corrected if

need be. When one stores variopus pulse signatures in mind, associates with the

patients doshas, symptoms etc, he need not prove accuracy of his judgement to

anyone. Next patient having same signature, experiencing same symptoms etc is

proof for him! In pulse practice, attempt is not to earn any higher degree,

write papers or presentations. Mouth-to-mouth publicity of Vaidya is the reward

Vaidya gets. The patients cured rapidly on the basis of pulse diagnosis become

the scientific evidence for those who do not trust his abilities.

 

> Second, why isn't the above assertion just twisting of metaphorical language

to conform to a preconceived bias? Would an objective scientist draw this type

of conclusion upon reading about the third eye? That it refers to magnetism?

 

Correct word is bio-magnetism. How do you feel when you put your hands in front

of a TV set with CRT type tube. Same experience you can obtain when you shake

hands with strong bio-magnetism personality. When you bring your two hands

together in " Namaskar " pose and then take them aprt, bio-magnetism can be

experienced depending on sensitivity of the individual. The currents of Prana

can be felt when one is relaxing after breathing techniques practice, such as

pranayama.

 

ancient vaidyas may not have been practicing pulse technique, since it was a

later addition to ayurveda, with possible root in yoga and tantra. The modern

yog-acharyas have established how effective are breathing techniques for healing

diseases. Should we reject this addition since it is not mentioned in old

classic texts on ayurveda? How a healer can prove scientifically that only

breathing technicques cured the disease?

 

The similarity in the meaning of prana by ayurvedacharyas and the energy flow in

nadis mentioned in tantric and yoga texts needs to be understood by a healer,

who wants to be practicing drug-less approaches and better diagnosing arts. The

symptoms based approach has produced non-unique conclusions and prescriptions in

many cases, since many disease states have overlapping symptoms. If you go back

in archives, correlating the disease names of modern science with those

discussed in ayurveda is ot easy many a time.

 

Asking scientific or empirical evidence for herbal effects, is a way of

criticising ayurveda. Same thing you can apply for pulse technique and

disbelieve it. But that does not stop the evolution of the technique or

belief/trust of the patient on vaidya.

 

Many things can be learnt by self experience only. Their science cant be

discussed since it requires different framework than that of modern science. How

can modern science see the existence of chakras through its electronic eye. A

yogi after sufficient practice knows the prana currents inside the body in

circular fashion and can experience the chakra.

 

Since Vata, pitta, Kapha are not material entities, how can a scanner can see

it? Acharyas recommended to take the pulse more than once in a session. Think

why.

 

Dr Bhate

[Guest guest]

> The electronic pulse sensors may be able to give some sophisticated look (and

more inflow of fee) to the ayurvedic practice, but their diagnostic help will be

of very limited use, since pulse is not just a oscillatory pressure signal

alone. Scientists were finding it difficult to belive aura, bioenergy,

magnestism etc. Now they have invented methods to map these. But alternative

healer knew about the existence through third eye.

 

Dear Dr. Bhate:

 

Can you please elaborate on the " THIRD EYE " ?

 

I think this could be mixing of mystique terms from " Hindu Spirituality " in

modern day practice.

 

If one looks at this term as " j~naana cakshu " (eyes of knowledge or

understanding) then it would make sense to me.

 

Thanks,

 

Dr. Yadu

[Guest guest]

Thanks for a good question.

 

Ayurveda as well as yoga may have their birth in spiritual philosphies. If one

studies posts 10816, 11452, 11511, 12502, 12617, 12695, 12770, 12925 this may be

clear.

 

The alternative word: Jnanachakshu would also serve the same purpose. To explain

it further, author provides some examples.

 

Some knowledge need not be taught by a guru, but occurs as a flash to the

healer. Healer is serving the community in the spirit of " Service to mankind "

rather than an occupation. They get helped by superpowers. The use of breathing

techniques (Pranayamas) in curing diseases could be classed under this

phenomenon. Baba Ramdev could be credited for possessing the third eye.

 

How acharyas could arrive at medicinal uses of herbs and their parts? e.g. they

did not know Coconut contains lauric acid and caprylic acid which possess

anti-fungal property. But they recommended the coconut oil for dressing the

wounds. The likely fungal infection was thus taken care. Idli, dosa contain

yeast and its metabolic waste, but coconut chutney at the side provides

anti-fungal balance. This kind of balance is found in many traditional dishes.

Is not this surprising?

 

Science discovers what was perceived through third eye. Science formalizes the

terms, names etc in a systematic fashion, evolving a theory to satisfy the

totality of present observations. The anomaly in future then requires

corrections to the theory. Many a time, simple theory does not provide

solutions. In a well known research centre, no mid-level scientist could answer

the following question correctly:

 

" Two identical beakers, one containing water at 20 deg. C and another heated to

90 dec C, same quantity by volume, are placed in the fridge, side by side. Which

one will form ice first? "

 

Another example of third eye is provided in excerpt from post 14533:

 

A tribal lady gets Vaidya Ratna award for

handling more than 2000

deliveries, including many complicated cases like breach delivery and

entanglement of umbilical cord, in the tribal areas of Hunsur Taluk.

She also treats uterine prolapse, all menstrual problems, infertility,

jaundice and many paediatric conditions.

 

Who taught her marma points to press when delivery is slowed down, or mother is

in distress? This is an example of third eye working.

 

Many traditional " Don'ts " to be followed by pregnant lady arise from mind body

connection known to grandmas, mother-in-law etc, which modern science found

difficult to admit until recent past. Not all find mention in ayurvedic texts

also. Could science imagine the influence of others thoughts on the foetus?

 

Many herbs are not even mentioned in any ayurvedic books, but their use

continues in traditional practice. e.g. the use of arka roots to be held in

hands or put in hair by a would-be-mother in labor, to smoothen the process.

 

Thus many who know fragments of ayurveda are able to help the humanity, without

knowing formal modern science or formal training in Vata, pitta, Kapha theories.

 

Like the shoe-smell remedy for immediate relief under epilepsy attack, the

science should investigate the working, to satisfy its curiosity. But neither

community nor acharyas showed any curiosity why certain remedy works, what

ingredients are responsible, whether they can be artifically manufactured for

patent, whether the diagnosis can be done by more reproducinble evidence, by a

method more convincing to masses? The trust of the patient on vaidya, Vaidya's

love and bhakti for his profession donated him some power where he could give

good results without any doubts.

 

The way it is possible to realize the existsnce of chakras and prana currents

after sufficient meditation, pranayama practice in turning the mind " inwards " ,

it is also possible to sense the consciousness flow in the arteries of the

patient. It is also possible to guess the problems of chakras, corresponding

organs controlled by them, and most importantly, pass the mind(third eye now)

into patients body, mind complex. The transprency now presented gives a picture

to the vaidya which could be termed nadi diagnosis. Both eyes need to be closed

to traverse the insides of the patient, so that concentration is now in the

signals perceived at the fingers, through patients breath, his thoughts (if

vaidya can read them). after many years of married life, wife is able to sense

the tension in husband as soon as she opens the door when he returns. This is

also her third eye. Whether one uses Gnana chakshu term, or third eye or sixth

sense, it is one and the same.

 

The ancient glory of the ayurveda still lives in pockets of tribal areas,

traditional healers practicing pulse technique, marma massage, swaras therapies

etc.

 

_______

 

Can you please elaborate on the " THIRD EYE " ?

 

I think this could be mixing of mystique terms from " Hindu Spirituality " in

modern day practice.

[Guest guest]

I had asked the following question:

 

What is this " bioenergy " running in the fingers? How does it relate to ordinary

physics?

 

In response the author referred me to a post #7104. I looked up this post,

hoping to read some real scientific description of energy as it is understood in

today's physics. Instead, what I saw was an endless series of meaningless

assertions completely alien to physics, chemistry and biology as we recognize

them.

 

The following quote should give you an idea of the kind of mind-numbing

gibberish that I am talking about here:

 

QUOTE

Within the body, bio-energy forms a blueprint that guides maintenance

and growth of each organism. It is the 'adhesive' that holds the

cells together and at the same time it is also the 'energy of

organization'. In deep sleep the bio-energy body, our etheric body,

tends to float in a horizontal position over the physical body in

order to become recharged with this etheric energy. Acupuncture-

points are like transformers or inflow points of bio-energy from the

meridians into the underlying tissue structures.

UNQUOTE

 

This author has no clue about elementary cell biology and biophysics taught to

undergraduates in college classrooms, and experimented upon in modern scientific

laboratories. He appears to think that it is all this spooky spiritual nonsense

that passes for science. Here is another one of these gems from the depths of

cluelessness:

 

" Science always lags many miles behind spiritual philosophy "

 

Here is the link to the entire post #7104:

 

http://health.ayurveda/message/7104?threaded=1 & l=1

 

Please see if you can get past the first paragraph without your eyes glossing

over.

 

The rest of the material in the post below only makes it clear further that this

is just another misguided case of an inability to distinguish real science from

pseudoscience, as well as from pure unadulterated nonsense. The fact that the

author offers static electricity as evidence of some mysterious bio-magnetism is

enough to stop a high school physics student from reading any further.

 

Any half-attentive high school physics student today knows exactly what causes

the CRT TV static sensation on the hand, and the fact that there is nothing

special about bio-magnetism as opposed to magnetism. It is best if I stop here

now.

 

Cheers,

 

Santosh

 

_______________________

What is this " bio-energy " running in the fingers? How does it relate to

ordinary physics?

 

The explainations available in Post 7104.

[Guest guest]

Dear Vaidya Shirish

I have some questions in mind.

How acharyas could arrive at medicinal uses of herbs and their parts?

After reading your posting some one may thought that Ayurveda is devine and

development of Ayurveda was due to third eye operation of Acharyas in past.

I would like to attract your attention to your own question wriiten above and

the third eye answer given by you in the post.

Science do not work on faith but on reality, on basis of law of nature.

It is my humble opinion that atlest Vaidyas who are carring responsibility of

Ayurveda must speak in scientific [ Ayurvedic] language and not as spiritual

man.

Vaidya Upadhye

http://www.astroayurvedalogy.com

http://www.astrotreat.blogspot.com

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

 

How acharyas could arrive at medicinal uses of herbs and their parts? e.g. they

did not know Coconut contains lauric acid and caprylic acid which possess

anti-fungal property. But they recommended the coconut oil for dressing the

wounds.

[Guest guest]

Dr. Upadhye:

 

Thank you for bringing paroksha, aparoksa and pratyaksa j~naana into the

equation.

 

Typical sanyaasii's keep on looking at the " sky " for adhyaatma as they cannot

explain anything except for making things more mystique that that need to be and

totally ignore the the " pratyaksha " j~naana that can be experienced here and

now.

 

Our ancestors have used may herbs in yj~naa portion in ATHARVAVEDA that clearly

provide clue for their understanding of utilizing herbs in specific situations.

Example: Using shankhapushpi oblation when husband is expected to return from a

long trip. To me this suggests the utilization of antiancxiolitic properties of

herb by an anxious spouse.

 

The property of shankhapushpi was same in past, present and is expected to

remain same in future. In other words, that is a knowledge observed by our

ancestors that could be experienced regardless of time period constraints.

Anything that does not deviate or alter in all three periods is regarded as

truth. (trikaala abaadhita satya).

 

IMO- using such eternal knowledge as observed by sages is our real inheritance

and that is why veda are regarded as " pramaaNa " ( vatitated truths) in our

couture.

 

I will be publishing many such references found in R^igveda, yajurveda and

atharvaveda in the near future.

 

Regards,

 

Dr. Yadu

_________

 

I have some questions in mind.

How acharyas could arrive at medicinal uses of herbs and their parts?

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr Yadu

With full respect to your knowledge I must say that I do not agree with you.

Ayurveda is mystical due to it's principle are very hard to understand. The uses

of plants including Shankhapushpi is written on certain basis of Rasa, Virya,

Vipak and Prabhav. The classification of each herb in Nighantu are on this basis

and their uses [ Karma] and properties are explained on the same basis only.

The uses of herbs given in Nighantu many years back are still practical because

the basic principles used by our ancestral for research of herbs are 100%

correct.

Hence the research should be done on the methodology of our ancestral way of

research.

Ayurveda is not a product of third eye or of divine power. It is evolved in many

years by research only.

While putting across our views at least Vaidya should bear in mind our

responsibility. If we are going to call Ayurveda as God made then who else is

going to believe Ayurveda as a science.

Vaidya Upadhye

http://www.astroayurvedalogy.com

http://www.astrotreat.blogspot.com

_____________________

 

 

Our ancestors have used may herbs in yj~naa portion in ATHARVAVEDA that clearly

provide clue for their understanding of utilizing herbs in specific situations.

Example: Using shankhapushpi oblation when husband is expected to return from a

long trip. To me this suggests the utilization of antiancxiolitic properties of

herb by an anxious spouse.

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr. Upadhy:

 

I am no way trying to say that Ayurveda is merely a product of " Third Eye " as

claimed in this thread.

 

All I am trying to point out that vedic sages documented their observation in

veda. It is us to us to further our current knowledge.

 

Regards,

 

Dr. Yadu

 

___________________________

 

If we are going to call Ayurveda as God made then who else is going to believe

Ayurveda as a science.

[Guest guest]

I feel very sad when Indians talk like that. Instead of looking at things deeply

how easy it is to call these scientific facts as gibberish. facts that our

ancient scientists known as rishis then have painstakingly studied searched,

researched and put it for posterity. I feel we are particularly lucky that we

have allready researched facts passed on to  us. But what a quirk of fate that

in order to be known as a scientific mind a person throws out the real gems and

picks up stones. Can't we have some more self esteem for ourselves ands our

systems? Even today's physics has become quantum physics. They say that not

everything can be proved as definite.   

 

 

 

 

_____________

 

In response the author referred me to a post #7104. I looked up this post,

hoping to read some real scientific description of energy as it is understood in

today's physics. Instead, what I saw was an endless series of meaningless

assertions completely alien to physics, chemistry and biology as we recognize

them.

[Guest guest]

" Eastern civilizations have known about Chi for thousands of years and this

understanding forms the basis of their medical and religious practices. The

western culture, especially physicists, doctors, and scientists have never been

really convinced of the realty of Chi, because our western scientists " could not

prove it exists " by currently understood measurement techniques. This scientific

process is also hampered because Chi descriptions are discounted since they do

not conveniently fit in our western scientific paradigm.

 

To understand Chi in terms of quantum fields please visit:

http://www.matzkefamily.net/doug/papers/chiwater.html

 

The most recent advances in western scientific research on quantum mechanics and

information technology combined to provide framework for understanding the

non-physical information fields of quantum mechanics in regard to quantum

gravity theories. Just as Einstein showed that energy and matter are equivalent,

these modern theorists are showing that energy and information are equivalent. "

 

If one studies above paper along with its references with open mind, it will be

clear why spiritualism is ahead of science by light years. All the scientists

recognized for achievements (both western and eastern) were philosophers in

quest of knowing " what we are " !

 

It also needs to be noted that this list aims include discussion on yoga. Yoga

is not just twisting body into aasanas. Discovering our true " self " is the

ultimate aim. Hence thinking that " anything other than herbs, decoctions, VPK,

etc is off-topic for this list " is not correct. How do we explain acharyas

denoting some conditions under grah-peeda, bhoot-peeda? what about incurable

diseases being attributed to karma? The master stroke of acharyas is

" pragyaparadaha " as the root cause of all diseases, whether body or mind

affected.

 

While western science looks at nerve compressions in vertebrae as source of some

conditions, a yoga teacher discovers simple exercises to cure sciatica, back

pain, spondyloytis etc. by simply studying the nature deeply. Another yogi

discovers effectioveness of pranayama which has become a miracle all accross

globe recently. Yogis do not use their physics knowledge but use metaphysics,

not necessarily learnt in universities. It is this phenomenon which is loosely

termed third eye by this author.

 

Which science is superior?

 

_

What is this " bioenergy " running in the fingers? How does it relate to ordinary

physics?

 

In response the author referred me to a post #7104. I looked up this post,

hoping to read some real scientific description of energy as it is understood in

today's physics. Instead, what I saw was an endless series of meaningless

assertions completely alien to physics, chemistry and biology as we recognize

them.

[Guest guest]

Please do not judge all scientists, doctors, physicsists by same yardstick.

Those on the path of dicovering their true self are doing great piece of work in

studying the secrets behind the strong connection between health, medicine and

spirituality. If an allopathic doctor respects the alternative paths better than

their own field, we should respect their views.

 

For instance, Prof. Vinod Kochupillai, head, cancer hospital in All India

Institute of Medical Science(AIIMS), New Delhi needs the mention.

 

Plese see posts 4912, 4919, 5066 for further details.

 

______________

I feel very sad when Indians talk like that. Instead of looking at things deeply

how easy it is to call these scientific facts as gibberish.

.... Even today's physics has become quantum physics. They say that not

everything can be proved as definite.   

[Guest guest]

Dear Santosh,

 

You ask some very good questions. Let me start by saying that

" bio-energy " does NOT relate to ordinary physics.

 

This is because ordinary physics is a relatively crude set of hypotheses

to explain the universe and how it works. It is only one of many

different theoretical models that have been created throughout history.

Yes, you can use crude methods and tools to demonstrate and prove crude

hypotheses, but you cannot use them to demonstrate all aspects of the

perceived universe.

 

When I say crude methods, I don't mean to be derogatory - I just mean

mechanical methods that can only detect and measure mechanical

phenomena.

 

Once you accept this, you can let go of attachment to western physics,

biology, chemistry etc; and explore the more subtle aspects of the

perceived universe. All it needs is a mind open to possibilities.

 

Why use crude tools to prove your universe when you possess the most

sophisticated tool of all - the human body and mind? The most definitive

way to understand the universe is to experience it.

 

The very latest understanding of physics states that the manifestation

of the perceived world, from the field of infinite possibilities, is

determined by the subjective mind. As a lay person, I understand this to

mean that we see what we are prepared to see. These expectations are

determined largely by the culture we live in. If we change our

expectations, we will see and experience a different world.

 

If sub-atomic particles continuously flicker in and out of material

existence every moment, as is agreed by physicists, how does an object

maintain the same form? The only plausible answer is that there is a

blueprint that controls the materialisation of sub-atomic particles.

Furthermore, according to quantum physics, this blueprint is influenced

by our subjective mind. So where is the objectivity that you speak of?

 

There have been attempts at measuring " bio-energy " or prana (Motoyama et

al) but these attempts do not appear to have been accepted by the

mainstream scientists. Becker, Nordenstrom and other highly-esteemed

researchers have correlated prana and chi with the DC microcurrents in

the body. Rife, Reich and others did a lot of work with bio-energy; yet

they were ostracised by the mainstream when they started succesfully

treating diseases like cancer. Nordenstrom - a Nobel Prize panel judge -

presented his bio-electrical work with cancer in the US and was ignored;

so he took it to China where it has been used to treat thousands of

patients.

 

I don't want to sound arrogant, Santosh, but I would suggest that if you

are really interested in how the world works, please look outside of

ordinary physics. Mainstream academia has too many vested interests to

explore new territory.

 

You say scientists have found that bio-energy doesn't exist. How did

they attempt to detect or measure it? Have you read the works of

scientists who say that it does exist?

 

The best way to explore prana is to experience it and practise it. The

empirical evidence is the ability to repeat that experience through

practice. The reproducible evidence is in the consistent results that

practitioners get when they use it. This work cannot be done in a test

tube or a sterile lab; it is done in the rich world of human experience

with infinite variables.

 

Skills with prana, with pulse reading, and with healing, are not

obtained in a college. They are not learned by reading or even by

listening to a practitioner. As has been said in other posts, they are

acquired by an open mind, constant practice, and a heart that is open to

other living beings.

 

In this regard, the Third Eye relates to our perception that is beyond

the physical senses. This may sound romantic and metaphorical - but,

because of the crude limitations of language and the rational mind, the

subtle aspects of life can only be described symbolically and

metaphorically.

 

Best regards,

Gerald.

www.ScienceOfLife.co.nz <http://scienceoflife.co.nz>

 

__________________________

 

What is this " bio-energy " running in the fingers? How does it relate

to ordinary physics?

[Guest guest]

That's Great Gerald.

 

Thank you.

_____________

 

You ask some very good questions. Let me start by saying that

" bio-energy " does NOT relate to ordinary physics.

....

In this regard, the Third Eye relates to our perception that is beyond

the physical senses.

[Guest guest]

While Indian scientists working in health research get blinded by the modern

science and ridicule the yogis trying hard to search the truth, they should

look at the western intellectuals who came to India in search of spiritual

powers, and established their existence. The spiritual knowledge existing in

India has attracted many philosophers and intellectuals from world over. There

exists dormant spiritual energy in everyone of us. By activating this energy man

can achieve amazing states of our body.

 

Forein intellectuals have come to India in search of mystic powers and siddhis.

Sister Nivedita was an enlightened soul who shared the platform with Swami

Vivekanand in world conferece. Mother who devoted her life in yoga sadhana along

with Maharshi Arvind at Pondicerry was also a westerner. A well known seeker of

spiritual truths who travelled to India and Egypt, Dr. Paul Brunton, has

mentioned about these and many other westerners in his notebooks. He mentions

several of his experiences in both these countries. Now all the notebook

contents are available online at:

http://wisdomsgoldenrod.org/notebooks/

amongst above, the category 10, " the healing of the self "

has most of the essence of spiritual ayurveda, available at:

http://wisdomsgoldenrod.org/notebooks/10 and is most important for an ayurvedic

healer.

 

A noteworthy mention in his book " A Search in Secret Egypt (1936) "

is his meeting with a Greek doctor (born in Egypt) who turned into renowned

fakir Tahra Bey. Through yoga and meditation, he obtained yogic powers and

amazed various scientists and doctors. Born in a city near Nile river in Egypt,

Tahra Bey was a doctor by profession. He exhibited yogic powers in the presence

of doctors, scientists and other experts in Bulgaria, Syria and Italy. He

demonstrated the existsnece of dormant energies in man, which can be activated

through yoga and meditation and can be harnessed to attain extra ordinary health

states. Moreover these can replace medication too.

 

Once he remained buried in ground for 28 days. In the presence of scientists, he

increased his pulse count to 140 per minute. After few minutes, when he asked

them to check the pulse again, the count reduced to just 40 per minute. Everyone

was amazed when he stopped his pulse altogether for few seconds! Once in Italy,

he started his program of drowning under water for 24 hours. After experts

certified his health, he was put in a coffin like box and the box was lowered

under water. Local police stopped this experiment in an hour itself. Being a

doctor himself, he obtained French Governments permission to repeat the

experiment in France, and completed it successfully in the presence of health

experts. This feat became well known world over. He received invitation from

the heads of the Governments of Egypt, Romania and Italy. Musolini also had

invited Tahra Bey to his palace to honoured him. Tahar Bey used to say that

all these feats obey all the laws of science of nature. But to obey all the

rules to preserve the extra sensory powers is quite difficult for an ordinary

man. Long meditation and following discipline is needed to understand these

rules.

 

In the presence of Dr. Paul Brunton and several other scientists, Tahar Bey

exhibited a hair raising experiement. He kept one hand under the neck and

pressed the ear lobe with another hand. He passed into yoga-nidra within a

minute. His body became a solid mass like a log of wood. He was made to lie down

on two knives with sharp edges touching his body, placed on the table before

hand. A doctor examined his pulse, running at 130 counts per minute, an

exceptional speed for a person in deep translike sleep. A granite slab weighing

90 Kg was kept on his body and broken into pieces with a heavy hammer. But not

even a scratch was observed on his body, as if it was made like an anvil from

steel. He was made to stand in the same state. After a while he returned to

original conscious state, he did not know anything that happened to his body. No

wound marks, not a drop of blood, or mark of injury.

 

Paul Brunton toured many countries of the world, but maximum time he spent in

India. He has written a number of Books. After witnessing various mystic events

and feats by yogis, he discussed with various scientist and has noted that

Indian yogis and meditation practitioners can go into deep yog-nidra and

withstand many difficult demands on and shocks to the physical body. Adhyatma is

a great science and practicing it with discipline can offer such amazing powers

to the practitioner.

 

Present day masters do not do exhibitions, but teach the art of directing such

energies for healing, which will be dealt with in separate post some other day.

 

_____________________

 

Thank you for bringing paroksha, aparoksa and pratyaksa j~naana into the

equation.

 

Typical sanyaasii's keep on looking at the " sky " for adhyaatma as they cannot

explain anything except for making things more mystique that that need to be and

totally ignore the the " pratyaksha " j~naana that can be experienced here and

now.