Guest guest Posted June 13, 2008 Report Share Posted June 13, 2008 Hi, My 20 yr old autistic son has been prescribed aswagandhadi lehyam to reduce his anxiety, aggression and to improve his sleep. Since taking this remedy he is more anxious and shows increased aggression. Can aswaganda which is usually given to anxious individuals to calm them cause increased aggression? I am a little confused and is having a very difficult time with my son.I would be grateful if somebody could explain this paradoxical reaction. Savithri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2008 Report Share Posted June 13, 2008 Savithri could your son be taking too much at a time? What exactly was prescribed? And how is it being taken? Best, Jane -------------------- > My 20 yr old autistic son has been prescribed aswagandhadi lehyam > to reduce his anxiety, aggression and to improve his sleep. Since > taking this remedy he is more anxious and shows increased aggression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2008 Report Share Posted June 14, 2008 Increased symptoms while using some ayurvedic remedies is a result of Herxheimer reaction. Though modern science does not belive it, many of the conditions classed under the " mental or mood disorders " are due to the pathogens inside the body and toxins inside the mind. When an ayurvedic remedy is used, the die-off reactions cause more toxins to be released in the blood, which causes exacerbation of the symptoms. TO soften such reactons there are few remedies which cause elimination of these toxins. When elimination organs: liver, kidney and sweating is slowed down, the toxins in the blood recirculate. This experience is recently posted on a post on schizophrenia: http://health.ayurveda/message/13071 Hence key is to boost the function of liver, kidney and skin. One simple way is self urine therapy when such problems occur, proposed by several naturopaths, the logic of which is sound based on principles of homeopathy. Other way is to take 5-10 ml of extra virgin olive oil, mixed with half lemon juice and about 50-100 ml water(depending on the quantity of oil), mix well and drink it first thing empty stomach in the morning. Keep drinking lemon water (1 lemon juice+200 ml water+2-3 pinches sea salt and honey as a sweetner) twice or thrice a day. Hydratiuon of the colon and C vitamin helps. To understand the Herxheimer reaction further you may google on the " Herxheimer " keyword. Dr Bhate _______________ My 20 yr old autistic son has been prescribed aswagandhadi lehyam to reduce his anxiety, aggression and to improve his sleep. Since taking this remedy he is more anxious and shows increased aggression. Can aswaganda which is usually given to anxious individuals to calm them cause increased aggression? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2008 Report Share Posted June 14, 2008 Ashwagandha is basically a 'Balya' (Booster) herb and it is meant to activate and boost the bodily processes rather than sedate and calm them. Herbs like Jatamansi would be more appropriate for reducing anxiety, aggression and disturbed sleep. Besides whole body massage from head to soles of the feet would bring remarkable improvements. Dr.D.B.Muzumdar M.D.Ayurveda-Medicine (Mumbai-Inda) < dahpc > _________ Since taking this remedy he is more anxious and shows increased aggression. Can aswaganda which is usually given to anxious individuals to calm them cause increased aggression? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2008 Report Share Posted June 14, 2008 Hello friends. I have a 30 year old autistic adult daughter. I have tried it all. Ayurveda and homeopathy are the best. I read and read the best (like here). She (and me--both pitta/vata) have the sulphur problem (Rosemary Waring's research). HER PROBLEMS START IN THE LIVER, not the brain. We do not not well on stimulants and/or certain chemicals that go through the liver. You have to try alternative routes. We use brahmi and bacopa in coconut oil on the skin with no adverse recation. The same herbs in sesame oil (warming) cause us a probalem. We cannot metabolize something in brahmi if it goes through the liver, but on the skin it works a different way and it is okay. We need the cooling oils--sunflower and coconut. We also cannot take anything herb with a pungent vipak (or pungent anything). It shifts our body chemistry the wrong way. What I am saying is--there is help for your son. You have to constantly experiment ON YOUR OWN. You need to know his dosha. Try one thing at a time. Combinations are not good (except homeopathic combos are fine). Coriander (15 years), tumeric, shatavari and shankhapushpi have never caused adverse reactions here. Sweet and bitter is good for us, pungent is very bad. We take a homeopathic combo of western herbs to boost liver function. We are using Ayurvedic?herbs and oils?to rejuvenate. I liked Dr. Bhate's explanation about the paradoxical reaction very much. Katy (pitta/vata) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2008 Report Share Posted June 14, 2008 > paradoxical reaction > Posted by: " savithrikumar2003 " savithrikumar2003 > savithrikumar2003 > Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:37 am (PDT) > > Hi, > > My 20 yr old autistic son has been prescribed aswagandhadi lehyam > to reduce his anxiety, aggression and to improve his sleep. Since > taking this remedy he is more anxious and shows increased aggression. > Can aswaganda which is usually given to anxious individuals to calm > them cause increased aggression? I am a little confused and is having > a very difficult time with my son.I would be grateful if somebody > could explain this paradoxical reaction.Back to top Dear Savitri Please find my comments to you at the end. > Posted by: " Shirish Bhate " shirishbhate shirishbhate > Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:56 pm (PDT) > > Increased symptoms while using some ayurvedic remedies is a result of > Herxheimer reaction. Though modern science does not belive it, many of > the conditions classed under the " mental or mood disorders " are due to > the pathogens inside the body and toxins inside the mind. Dear Dr. Bhate What is the Ayurvedic rationale for this? Herxheimer reaction isn't something I have come across before in Ayurveda, and in this circumstance there might be something else going on... plse read further... > Posted by: " muzumdar " dahpc dbm2110 > Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:29 am (PDT) > > Ashwagandha is basically a 'Balya' (Booster) herb and it is meant > to activate and boost the bodily processes rather than sedate and > calm them. > Herbs like Jatamansi would be more appropriate for reducing > anxiety, aggression and disturbed sleep. Besides whole body massage > from head to soles of the feet would bring remarkable improvements. Dear Dr. Muzumdar Is this entirely true? In some nighantus, Ashwagandha is also called " nidrajanana " - this is apart from its " balya " or strength-promoting activity. I have often taught my students that this is one of the key differences between a herb like Ashwagandha, which tends to strengthen AND sedate, and Chinese Ginseng, which strengthens AND stimulates... Any experienced herbalist quickly ascertains the difference between the two. Given its constituent profile, Jatamamsi may also be contraindicated in this circumstance as well - please read on... *** There are a few other possible reasons Savitri, for your son's reaction, and it is worthy of exploring further. First off, Ashwagandha is a warming herb. If your son has excess pitta in his system, Ashwagandha can make this worse, and may promote hyperactivity and aggression. Secondly, Ashwagandha directly impacts and enhances the activity of the inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brain called GABA (gamma amino butyric acid). GABAnergic systems in the brain have a hyperpolarizing effect, and inhibit neural activity. In many cases, children with autism and ADHD have disorganized frontal lobe function, and herbs that impact these GABAnergic systems just make it worse, leading to a hyperactive/ aggressive response. This is why stimulants like Ritalin are prescribed, because they help to enhance neural activity in the frontal lobe, and allow the brain to reorganize. However, Ritalin is a very strong drug and many alternatives can be found. To test this hypothesis in your son, try giving him some coffee, and observe what the response is. Many people with ADHD can be successfully placed on coffee instead of Ritalin to help them with brain organization. Other possibilities would include caffeine-containing herbs such as black tea, kola nut, guarana etc., which can be combined or used in concert with other herbs that helps to nourish the brain and nervous system, but always with a view to balancing its stimulatory/ inhibitory activities. If it has a positive result, then you know what direction to move. In many cases, caffeine will have just the opposite effect in autistic and ADHD, and make the person feel much more calm and relaxed. In addition to this, it has been observed that a low-carbohydrate diet is very effective to control some of symptoms of autism. Btw, you can read about some anecdotal experiences with caffeine and hyperactivity here: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/ What_does_caffeine_do_to_an_ADHD_child best wishes... Todd Caldecott Caldecott, Dip. Cl.H, RH(AHG) Ayurvedic practitioner, Medical Herbalist 203 - 1750 East 10th Ave Vancouver, BC V5N 5K4 CANADA web: http//:www.toddcaldecott.com email: todd tel: (1)778.896.8894 fax: (1)866.703.2792 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2008 Report Share Posted June 15, 2008 > > What is the Ayurvedic rationale for this? Herxheimer reaction isn't > something I have come across before in Ayurveda, and in this > circumstance there might be something else going on... plse read > further... When one goes for detoxification, say as simple as as fruid detox, one encounters herxheimer reaction, at least that is this author's experience. Die off reactions of Candida offers feelings/symptoms similar to anxiety/panic attack. Amongst diabetics with beta blcokers or ACE inhibitors medication, faster withdrawl precipitated such reactions, breathing difficulties being the most scary one for the patient(as well as Vaidya!). When the cause was traced to candida die off as a result of anti-fungal herbs in ayurvedic medication, just slight backing off provided sufficient relief. Herxheimer reaction (Die-off reaction) is also mentioned in messages 13071, 13664. The detox mentioned in message 12819 also caused small reaction one day, which was managed easily. While you did not encounter it, author encountered it in many patients. Eczema, psoriasis patients also exhibited such reactions. Dr Bhate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2008 Report Share Posted June 15, 2008 Regarding Ashwagandha More detailed information leads to the following facts- 1) the cultivated variety of Ashwagandha is Balya ie strength-promoting. The root of this plant exhibits this property. What we get in the stores is the whole root or powder of such type of Ashwagandha. 2) the wild variety of Ashwagandha has intoxicating properties(which can be used to achieve soporific effects in very small doses), but it is not commonly marketed. Moreover it is the seeds that exhibit sleep-inducing property of this wild variety, which are not generally available unless you collect them from the forests. I feel that the references from the nighantus regarding any herb should be culled properly after thorough application, rather than quoting the references without proper context. Dr.D.B.Muzumdar M.D.Ayurveda-Medicine (Mumbai-India) < dahpc > ______________________________ In some nighantus, Ashwagandha is also called " nidrajanana " - this is apart from its " balya " or strength-promoting activity. I have often taught my students that this is one of the key differences between a herb like Ashwagandha, which tends to strengthen AND sedate, and Chinese Ginseng, which strengthens AND stimulates... Any experienced herbalist quickly ascertains the difference between the two. Given its constituent profile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Dear Dr. Bhate Its not that I am not familiar with Herxheimer, its that I haven't found an Ayurvedic explanation/rationalization of this.... that's all... Caldecott todd www.toddcaldecott.com ______ When one goes for detoxification, say as simple as as fruid detox, one encounters herxheimer reaction, at least that is this author's experience. Die off reactions of Candida offers feelings/symptoms similar to anxiety/panic attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 In western parlance, this is often called a 'healing crisis' as it seems to accelerate and to finish the cleansing process which is often seen as " illness " . ______________- When one goes for detoxification, say as simple as as fruid detox, one encounters herxheimer reaction, at least that is this author's experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 Dear Dr. Muzumdar, Regardless of the nidrajanana or soporific effect described in the nighantus, or the putative difference between wild and cultivated varieties, studies have been done showing the GABAnergic effects of _cultivated_ Withania, which is the essence of my point when it comes to the so-called " paradoxical " effect of such herbs. If you could provide some substantial information that demonstrates what wild varieties exist (in terms of botanical nomenclature), the enhanced soporific effects of the wild varieties over cultivated, or what major changes in constituent profile exist between wild vs. cultivated, I would be interested to see it. Caldecott, Dip. Cl.H, RH(AHG) Ayurvedic practitioner, Medical Herbalist 203 - 1750 East 10th Ave Vancouver, BC V5N 5K4 CANADA web: http//:www.toddcaldecott.com email: todd tel: (1)778.896.8894 fax: (1)866.703.2792 _______________ More detailed information leads to the following facts- 1) the cultivated variety of Ashwagandha is Balya ie strength- promoting. The root of this plant exhibits this property. What we get in the stores is the whole root or powder of such type of Ashwagandha. 2) the wild variety of Ashwagandha has intoxicating properties (which can be used to achieve soporific effects in very small doses), but it is not commonly marketed. Moreover it is the seeds that exhibit sleep-inducing property of this wild variety, which are not generally available unless you collect them from the forests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 I should add that very similar paradoxical relationships have been found for a few herbs, such as Valerian. In most folks, Valerian is a mild soporific, but in a certain small percentage, perhaps 10-15?, it has exactly the opposite activity and acts more or less as a stimulant. I would be interested to hear how many people on this list have tried Valerian and noted this response. Traditional western herbal energetics indicates that Valerian is warm in nature, and thus where heat is a part of the symptom picture, it should be avoided. Given Ashwangandha also increases heat, a similar reaction might be at play. I call this a " sthenic " insomnia, not the anxious, fearful overthinking of vata ( " asthenic " insomnia), but just too much mental fire: obsession, anger, frustration. Often these folks just lie there and sleep doesn't come. For them, what we call cooling nervines would be indicated, including Mandukaparni, Skullcap, Passionflower, Motherwort, Lime blossom and Vervain. This, and ensuring that the bedclothes aren't too warm, that the window is open and cool air is allowed to circulate, with floral aromatherapy including lavender, rose, jasmine etc., is the better approach for such types. Caldecott, Dip. Cl.H, RH(AHG) Ayurvedic practitioner, Medical Herbalist 203 - 1750 East 10th Ave Vancouver, BC V5N 5K4 CANADA web: http//:www.toddcaldecott.com email: todd tel: (1)778.896.8894 fax: (1)866.703.2792 _____________________ Regardless of the nidrajanana or soporific effect described in the nighantus, or the putative difference between wild and cultivated varieties, studies have been done showing the GABAnergic effects of _cultivated_ Withania, which is the essence of my point when it comes to the so-called " paradoxical " effect of such herbs. If you could provide some substantial information that demonstrates what wild varieties exist (in terms of botanical nomenclature), the enhanced soporific effects of the wild varieties over cultivated, or what major changes in constituent profile exist between wild vs. cultivated, I would be interested to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 the Jarisch-Herxheimer reflex is derived from medicine, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarisch-Herxheimer_reaction in large part this clinical entity has been claimed by CAM practitioners for a set of clinical features that extends beyond its original criteria sometimes i think the term " healing crisis " is used to cover up ineffective or awkward treatments the best treatment should not worsen the patient's health, although detox reactions are sometimes unavoidable even when anticipated the key thing is that the healing crisis should not be prolonged - a few days at most, otherwise the disease has simply shifted into another manifestation i am curious how others view this issue in ayurveda, a treatment that makes the patient worse would be termed anupashaya, and might require an adjustment in dose or an entirely different approach i am curious to hear of a syndrome described in ayurveda that bears similarity with the Jarisch-Herxheimer reflex Caldecott, Dip. Cl.H, RH(AHG) Ayurvedic practitioner, Medical Herbalist 203 - 1750 East 10th Ave Vancouver, BC V5N 5K4 CANADA web: http//:www.toddcaldecott.com email: todd tel: (1)778.896.8894 fax: (1)866.703.2792 ______ In western parlance, this is often called a 'healing crisis' as it seems to accelerate and to finish the cleansing process which is often seen as " illness " . _______________________ When one goes for detoxification, say as simple as as fruid detox, one encounters herxheimer reaction, at least that is this author's experience. Increased symptoms while using some ayurvedic remedies is a result of Herxheimer reaction. Though modern science does not belive it, many of the conditions classed under the " mental or mood disorders " are due to the pathogens inside the body and toxins inside the mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 > the best treatment should not worsen the patient's health, although > detox reactions are sometimes unavoidable even when anticipated Herxheimer reaction is unavoidable if one is treating a seriously ill patient, or wishing to eliminate the disease from its root. If one uses panchgavya medicines which contain even small perecentage of cow urine or cow dung, the detoxification occurs, whether a vaidya likes or not. About 10 years ago, when this author started using these medicines, almost every patient would experience the Herxheimer reaction. Nausea, sometimes vomits, Low grade fever, chills, headache, loose motions, diorrhea, bodypains shifting to different locations, and appearance of erruptions, boils or exacerbation of any skin problems existing before the start of medicines. In a few days, the reaction used to disappear as elimination channels became active. The reasons for this reaction is that panchgavya medicines are antibiotics, antifungals, antivirals and also anti- ama. Their use has to be done very cautiously, and dosage has to be reduced to soften the reaction. Even inappropriate diet will get vomitted out. Even self urine therapy precipitates such reaction, as seen in message # 4048. > >the key thing is that the healing crisis should not be prolonged - a > few days at most, otherwise the disease has simply shifted into > another manifestation > i am curious how others view this issue> If the disease root is hidden in systemic candidiasis, if the disease is chronic and the patient has come after exhausting allopathy,(read loaded with allopathic poisons), there is no alternative. The speed of elimination of parasites has to be kept low, to conserve patients energy reserves, and the healing crisis continues. the power of the eliminative forces of vaidya's treatment and disease generative forces of parasites differ by a narrow margin. When one feels " disease has simply shifted another manifestation " it means the vaidya is viewing disease-medicine chart. all diseases are basically cellular malfunction, and given a right nutrition, absense of harming parasites, presence of beneficial gut flora, body's immune system itself will do the job properly. When reaction becomes more disturbing, vaidya can always provide harmless quick fixes. Body does not know the disease definitions of Vaidya, it only exhibits signals to communicate what is happening inside. Vaidya has to correctly intepret those signals. Experience, dedication and meditating over the issue shows the right path. > > in ayurveda, a treatment that makes the patient worse would be termed > anupashaya, and might require an adjustment in dose or an entirely > different approach True. Entirely different approach first cleans and strengthens the eliminative organs before attempting major anti-pathogen tretament, or ama-elimination treatment(Panchkarma). Sometimes, a patient dislikes such treratments and vaidya has no option other than to leave the patient. The proficiency of vaidya is in assessing the vital force of the patient in estimating how strong treatment patient can withstand. [This is the area, which can be learnt only by self experience, and author himself has committed mistakes. It is only mistakes which teach this art]. This is where naturopathic priniciples must be smoothly merged with ayurveda. That is the reason, the emphasis on panchkarma is excessive in India, perhaps in contrast with the days of Acharyas. The reasons many of the herbs and medicines do not show desired results are not far to seek. The channels which carry the medicines are themselves clogged and patients dislike invasive cleansing treatments of panchkarma. > > i am curious to hear of a syndrome described in ayurveda that bears > similarity with the Jarisch-Herxheimer reflex Just one should suffice. Many diseases of intestines, parasites cause discomfort, pains, sounds in the stomach. The treatment dose is adjusted such that few motions containing sticky ama keep coming with a pain/discomfort within the bearing capacity of the patient. This reaction is managed by giving medicines in buttermilk/ghruta. As soon as the ama keeps reducing, the dosages are reduced. Foods are deliberately kept simple which will give energy and are easy to digest. If you are hinting that Hertheimer reaction is a western originality, ayurvedic acharyas did not attach any term to such a state, but they knew that ama elimination causes ups and downs, and that is why systematic panchkarma treatments were proposed. The root cuase was thought of as ama and not pathogens. Dr Bhate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 On 18-Jun-08, at 4:57 AM, ayurveda wrote: > Re: paradoxical reaction > Posted by: " Shirish Bhate " shirishbhate shirishbhate > Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:43 pm (PDT) > > > the best treatment should not worsen the patient's health, > although > > detox reactions are sometimes unavoidable even when anticipated > > Herxheimer reaction is unavoidable if one is treating a seriously > ill patient, or wishing to eliminate the disease from its root. Herxheimer and healing crisis are not necessarily same thing. The former relates to bacterial die-off, which we could reasonably include fungi as well, rather than a general stimulation of eliminative mechanisms. It can be see that in very toxic people it is very hard not to stimulate some kind of healing crisis, which may include a bacterial/fungal die-off, but if this is anticipated, then measures can be taken to address this without causing secondary problems. This is the difference between understanding svatantra vs paratantra, and which is more prominent and needs attention. Like yourself, I have seen some nasty die-off reactions that were totally unexpected. In one patient, a woman aged 63, suffering from a number problems including vascular issues and dizziness, had what appeared to be a fungal infection on her nails. I put her on a very gentle liver detox, and within one week this woman was oozing yellow droplets of goo from her upper body and her hands started to peel slough off skin. She went to another practitioner after that (who could blame her), and there was some discussion that perhaps the products was adulterated or something, but in actuality, that's how toxic she was. Since then I have never seen anything close, and can usually manage die-off reactions in a couple days, usually within the first week of treatment. > > > > > >the key thing is that the healing crisis should not be prolonged - > a > > few days at most, otherwise the disease has simply shifted into > > another manifestation > > i am curious how others view this issue> > > If the disease root is hidden in systemic candidiasis, if the disease > is chronic and the patient has come after exhausting allopathy,(read > loaded with allopathic poisons), there is no alternative. The speed > of elimination of parasites has to be kept low, to conserve patients > energy reserves, and the healing crisis continues. the power of the > eliminative forces of vaidya's treatment and disease generative > forces of > parasites differ by a narrow margin. When one feels " disease has > simply shifted another manifestation " it means the vaidya is viewing > disease-medicine chart. That is not what I meant - what I am referring to is causing further harm " by stirring up the pot " . An example is the use of alterative therapies, or " blood cleansers " . If eliminatory mechanisms in the liver, bowel and kidneys are not carefully reviewed and supported, then a secondary condition (paratantra) can manifest and even dominate the symptomology. A good example is the skin reaction above, caused by not addressing the eliminative mechanisms prior to undertaking an alterative regimen. > > The reasons many of the herbs and medicines do not show desired > results are not far to seek. The channels which carry the medicines > are themselves clogged and patients dislike invasive cleansing > treatments of panchkarma. This is the importance of ama-pachana prior to panch karma, which should consist more than just a week or so before PK. My experience is that a consistent, beneficial and general changes to the diet and lifestyle without even introducing any strong therapy usually resolve much of the patient's issue. Slow, gradual and consistent is the preferred mode of operation for more chronic disease. > > > > > > i am curious to hear of a syndrome described in ayurveda that > bears > > similarity with the Jarisch-Herxheimer reflex > > Just one should suffice. > > Many diseases of intestines, parasites cause discomfort, pains, > sounds in the stomach. The treatment dose is adjusted such that few > motions containing sticky ama keep coming with a pain/discomfort > within the bearing capacity of the patient. This reaction is managed > by giving medicines in buttermilk/ghruta. As soon as the ama keeps > reducing, the dosages are reduced. Foods are deliberately kept simple > which will give energy and are easy to digest. > > If you are hinting that Hertheimer reaction is a western > originality, ayurvedic acharyas did not attach any term to such a > state, but they knew that ama elimination causes ups and downs, and > that is why systematic panchkarma treatments were proposed. The > root cuase was thought of as ama and not pathogens. I wasn't hinting, just curious. More I was looking for a rationale, some kind of formal understanding of this concept. I think the Ayurvedic understanding of ama transcends the notion of the Herxheimer reaction, and encompasses a broader dynamic. Just like we should respect the integrity of Ayurvedic terms, so too should we maintain this approach with medical terms. Caldecott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 Dear Having referred 1) The Treatise on Indian Medicinal Plants - National Institute Of Science Communication and Information Resources, New Delhi 2) Database of Medicinal Plants used in Ayurveda - Central Council for Research in Ayurveda and Siddha, Dept of ISM & H, Ministry of Health and Family Welfare, Govt of India., I did not come across strong mention of the nidrajanana effect of Ashwandha. Though, there is a mention of it's use in insomnia, the reference does not find any support in the herb description shlokas in Bhavprakash Nighantu or Raj Nighantu. Even the commonly used formulations of Ashwandha like Ashwagandharishta, Ashwagandhadi Ghruta, Ashwagandhavaleha do not have insomnia as indication. Only possible clinical explanation could be that as it reduces mental stress due to it's balya property, it has a calming effect on the mind and hence it's mild sedative effect. No constituent profile between wild vs. cultivated variety of Ashwagandha is available in recent scientific studies, but it is the application of Vruddha Vaidya Parampara ie. the observation and experience notings of old vaidyas who are not alive today. As far as " paradoxical " effect of any herbs is concerned, according to Ayurvedic dictums, this happens because the herb under question does not match properly with the Prakruti, Vikruti and Dosha of the particular subject for whom the herb was brought in use, indicating improper application. It would be very interesting to note the definition of treatment according to Ayurveda. It says - Prayog Yo Shamayet Vyadhim, Anyam Anyam Udirayet | Naasou Vishuddha, Shudhastu Shamayet Yo Na Kopayet || which means - any treatment which relieves one ailment and gives rise to another ailment is not the proper (pure) application; real treatment is one which alleviates without aggravating other problems. Hence, irrespective of any GABAnergic effects, it would be better considering the application of Ashwagandha on the basis of it's doshaghnata, rogaghnata and prakruti as advocated in Nighantus. I do not desist any scientific pursuit of herbs on chemical lines, but the partial effect of any specific alkaloid / phytochemical cannot be justified, as there are many other finer ingredients in the whole herb. And when the whole herb is ingested in it's natural form as a single ingredient or as a formulation, many synergistic and regulatory (antagonistic) active principles come into play, once it enters the body and reacts on mucosal and cellular levels. Therefore, in my opinion, references of a single chemical effect is not sufficient enough to explain any specific activity of any particular herb. Dr.D.B.Muzumdar M.D.Ayurveda-Medicine (Mumbai-India) Vice-President, BAMS Graduates Association,Maharashtra., Dhanwantari Ayurvedic Hospital & Panchkarma Centre Mail - dahpc Web-Site - www.indiamart.com/dhanwantariayurvedic Tel.nos - +91-250-2505721 / 2505785 / 3201441 _____________________ Regardless of the nidrajanana or soporific effect described in the nighantus, or the putative difference between wild and cultivated varieties, studies have been done showing the GABAnergic effects of _cultivated_ Withania, which is the essence of my point when it comes to the so-called " paradoxical " effect of such herbs. If you could provide some substantial information that demonstrates what wild varieties exist (in terms of botanical nomenclature), the enhanced soporific effects of the wild varieties over cultivated, or what major changes in constituent profile exist between wild vs. cultivated, I would be interested to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 The concepts of treatment in Ayurveda are very clear-cut. There is no place for aggravations of any sort while treating a disease. If such rection occurs, Ayurveda considers it as a improper treatment. Secondly, if there is evidence of Ama, no enthusiastic or intensive treatment is to be done, not even detoxification measures or Panchkarma, till the Ama is digested by Amapachak medicines or means. Thirdly, before any Panchkarma, Ayurveda advises Purva-karma. It comprises of Snehan (oleation) - internal as well as external and Swedan (sudation). These measures are necessary to loosen the doshas and vishas (toxins) accumulated due to the chronicity of the disease. They have to be brought in the Koshta ( alimentary canal) for removal in upward direction (Vaman) or downward direction (Virechan). The local cleansing modes are covered with Basti, Nasya and Raktamokshan. Nowhere any untoward reaction is expected. Any deviation is considered as Upadrava (complication) and hence is rigorously treated. Such episodes are considered as negligence or improper training of the Vaidya. That much for Hertheimer reaction. Dr.D.B.Muzumdar M.D.Ayurved-Medicine (Mumbai-India) Mail - dahpc _____________ Herxheimer reaction is unavoidable if one is treating a seriously ill patient, or wishing to eliminate the disease from its root. If one uses panchgavya medicines which contain even small perecentage of cow urine or cow dung, the detoxification occurs, whether a vaidya likes or not. About 10 years ago, when this author started using these medicines, almost every patient would experience the Herxheimer reaction. Nausea, sometimes vomits, Low grade fever, chills, headache, loose motions, diorrhea, bodypains shifting to different locations, and appearance of erruptions, boils or exacerbation of any skin problems existing before the start of medicines. In a few days, the reaction used to disappear as elimination channels became active. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Dear Dr Muzumdar > Dear > We do not know the authenticity of the reference of Vangasena. > However, the term you have referred to as " nidraamaashveva " can be > split in three Sanskrit words " nidraam-ashva-eva " - which means > sleep as that of a horse. This obviously suggests the alertness > promoting property of Ashwagandha rather than lethargy inducing > property. Please my previous email where the entire phrase is translated. > > Your references about the chemical constituentsof Ashwagandha > itself starts with the word 'isolated'. Even the GABA-mimetic > activity is exhibited in the methanlic extract.I would like to draw > your attention to the reality that methanolic extract implies only > that portion of herb which is soluble in methanol or alcoholic > extract. So, how it can be concluded that the effect is consistent > even in whole sample? There are no consistent human clinical > studies, neither has this fact been confirmed in blood level > studies till now, as far as my information goes. Hence my > reservations on accepting the isolated presence of any particular > constituent in any specific extract. Perhaps read the quote again: one is an isolated extract, one is a methanolic extract, and one is a commercial preparation. Recently, the IJP published another study suggesting that Withania has a diazepam like activity: http://tiny.cc/cro2G Of course it is easy to criticize such studies, especially when there are so few. Those of us that have been studying medicinal plants and research models know all the arguments pro and con, so please let's step aside from this kind of positioning. My experience with Withania, the available research, and its effects supports some kind of modulatory activity on GABA, does explain why some folks with may exhibit negative reactions. Its a very simple, research-orientated explanation, and while you certainly don't have to accept you have failed to come up with another possibility of a paradoxical reaction with Ashwagandha apart from dismissing the possibility completely. That's precisely what I mean about an " open mind " . Anyway, that's enough on this topic. Caldecott todd www.toddcaldecott.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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