Autonomic response

[Guest guest]

Jane posted;

 

>>>I suppose the description I sent means more when you have seen it in

action - especially when you have seen it in action with 6 different

people

and observed the different requirements and the individual improvements on

them all - but it does seem very like a kinesiology type of technique

to me,

but one which works well.>>>

 

Another quote;

 

>>>Put in different terms, what Nogier discovered and what several people

around the world are now researching is that the arterial system

displays a

specific physical reaction when objects (such as food, herbs or medicine)

present in the electromagnetic fields near to the periphery of the body

without touching it. about new research in Autonomic response;?>>>

 

This is trying to reinvent the wheel. People who do not have knowledge

of traditional medical systems often `discover' ideas that they think

are new insights but Autonomic response is one of the oldest methods

of diagnosing disease. Pulse diagnosis is clearly an Autonomic

Vascular Response investigation. It has been used since ancient times

to evaluate internal conditions; this is because the pulse perfectly

reflects the Autonomic Nervous System's response to internal

conditions. Other symptoms do this as well but the pulse gives a very

complete, easily accessible insight into what the ANS is confronting

at the moment. Unfortunately, of the dozens of practioners I have met

and observed who use pulse diagnosis, only a handful actually have

great skill at this science and art. Great diagnosticians are few and

far between. The main reason for this is that many cannot see the

patient at all; they project their own prejudices and preconceptions

on to the patient and try to get the patient to conform to this.

Syndromes and disease names often become more important than the

person. A great intuitive healer can see the patient clearly and treat

the patient and not the disease name.

 

I have known a few great physicians and have been amazed at their

skill in evaluating the case. Some can do it on sight. There is a

Swami in Gujarat I have heard about who has a small clinic, every

morning dozens of people line up outside, Swamiji can not meet the

female patients directly because of his vows so they line up on one

wall of the courtyard, Swami comes through with his assistant, and as

he passes by the ladies without looking directly at them he makes

comments and his assistant writes down the diagnosis and the

prescription. They say he is amazing in his ability to capture the

essence of the case from a side-glance.

 

Many say that prakruti cannot be seen in diseased people because

vikruti hides prakruti. The fact is that many others are very skilled

at seeing the constitutional balance in the individual as well as the

acquired conditions in that particular prakruti. It is a particular

individual that has acquired disease, and both must be understood. I

have been in the company of great diagnosticians for the last two

months in Japan and India, and see how their minds work when looking

at people.

 

In Kyoto I met Dr. Kawa a great traditional Kampo healer. He uses his

own self-devised kineseology, or what I call Autonomic response

observation. He asks the patients to do many natural things so that

he can observe their responses and reactions. Open the mouth and show

the tongue, he is observing not just the ordinary signs but he is

observing whether the patient is comfortable opening the mouth, is

there a tremor, does the tongue move to the left or right, does the

patient have trouble keeping the tongue out, does it point, does it

curl up or down, is it flat, is there a concave or convex curve in the

middle. He asks the patients to hold out their hands, observing many

things, like strengths or weaknesses in the fingers, which fingers

have what qualities are they the same on both sides of the body, he

pushes down on the hands, does the energy collapse or does it resist,

does it alternatively resist then collapse. Is the mind interfering

with every physical response? He lays them on the examination table

and touches different parts of the body to ascertain how the patient

reacts. He tests reflexes. He tests sexual reactions by moving his

hands in a casual manner toward erogenous zones and carefully observes

the reaction. He touches softly, he strokes, and he pushes with some

bit of power. Touches the skin to ascertain how much resistance is

there, squeeze the shoulders, how much resistance is there, are the

muscles soft and yielding or are they tight and resistant. An

observant person can get a huge amount of information about the way in

which an individual is reacting and dealing with their own responses

and how they react to outside influences, in these ways. Excesses and

deficiencies start to form a picture. They confirm and deepen our

awareness of how hot or cold the patient is. Whether there is excess

water, where is it, where is the Vata, is there gas, is there pain,

how is the Vata flowing, is it contracting, is it moving up into the

head, is it getting stuck in the chest, does the patient move smoothly

or are they stiff and stilted, does the patient feel heavy, are there

extraordinary symptoms and sensations internally or externally, is the

patient self aware, are they self unaware, are they hyper sensitive,

are they afraid, overconfident, soft or loud in their expression, too

slow or too fast in their expression, do they project or do they

respond to actual facts and events, etc. Dr Kawa says it is very

important to understand the dynamics of the mind/body/spirit

relationship otherwise the true challenges of the patient will be

missed and medicines and therapeutics will not be specific enough to

have a deep or lasting effect. These kinds of people who look deeply

and carefully into the patient's issues actually heal disease; they do

not just theorize about disease and apply general principles of

healing, which may or may not relate to a particular patient.

 

I met Dr. Lobsang Dolma Khangkar some years ago in New York; she was

one of the greatest healers I have ever personally met. She was a

gifted diagnostician and could diagnose any case from the urine. Often

patients could not come to meet her and she asked that a sample of the

urine be sent, and she could precisely diagnose the problems and very

effectively treat the patient without ever having met them. Another

gifted physician is Dr. Yeshi Dhonden who is revered in the Tibetan

system for his extraordinary medical ability.

 

Another gifted diagnostician I have met is Vaidya Triguna in Delhi. In

Japan a highly respected diagnostician who has taken a traditional

system and evolved it into a great science is Dr. Kiiko Matsumoto, the

exposition of his system is in his book Hara Diagnosis: Reflections on

the Sea, a monumental contribution. Another great Japanese healer who

now lives in USA is Wataru Ohashi, one of his books is dedicated to

his art and science of intuitive diagnostics; Reading the Body. I have

known several patients who got breakthroughs in their healing process

because of his amazing insight.

 

There are many great healers who use their own techniques for

observing and diagnosing the human body and it's malfunctions. So my

comments about what Jane said, is, if you get information from

observing Autonomic response then by all means use it. Most concepts

in alternative science do not have studies, so one simply has to go on

one's own and respected opinions and experiences. It is obvious that

all events create Autonomic responses and just because some people are

not aware of these responses does not mean they are not there, each

response and reaction is in fact a wealth of information for anyone

sensitive enough to understand them. Autonomic responses of various

types are among the oldest diagnostic clues used in medicine and has

been used in almost every medical system we know about. If we read a

book on pulse diagnosis from any system we can see how much

information the great observers were able to get from those Autonomic

responses in the vascular system.

 

Liz

[Guest guest]

Anything that gives a more sensitive approach within the Allopathic

framework is both rare and welcome as far as I am concerned. Any

alternative diagnostic technique that is accepted by doctors anywhere is a

bonus for everyone.

 

Jane

 

 

 

> This is trying to reinvent the wheel.

[Guest guest]

I agree Jane, that was the point of my posting. I was pointing out

that it is a mistake to think this is new, it is very very old. The

unfortuante thing is that these Allopaths discover these things and

take them over, call the techinques by some new name and patent these

kinds of techniques, and bring law suits against traditional healers

who's system's have been using them for hundreds of years. There are

many instances of people appropriating traditional scientific concepts

and writing books claiming to be the inventor or discoverer of these

ideas, under copyright and other intellectual property laws. I have

been discussing this problem with several physicians in India

recently, it is a popular subject right now in India since there are

wide spread abuses of the Indian heritage. Several Americans and

Europeans have even copyrighted traditional meditation practices,

claiming to be the inventor of these techniques and incoperating them

into their own psychological systems. The Indian government want's to

bring charges against some of these intellectual property thiefs.

Others are doing the same with medicines and food items. There are

several big cases going on now, one is the attempt by an American

company to copyright the term Basmati rice, they also have filed a

patent on the genetics of Basmati rice. If their case stands it will

not be possible for anyone else to sell a product called Basmati rice

in the USA. Several classic Ayurvedic medicine formulas have been

copyrighted by Americans and Europeans. There is a classic formula for

impotency, which has been copyrighted and is being promoted as an

herbal Viagra.

 

I am very happy when I see modern scientists using ancient healing

techniques, but would be happier if they would acknowledge the

historical development of these concepts. Vascular response is only

one of the 'new' discoveries that are being apporpriated.

[Guest guest]

Thankyou but I was replying to Liz's post and I can't find a post from you on

this subject - nor can I find anywhere mentioned this was anything new in

origin.

 

I was merely offering a reference to Todd who couldn't find details in the link

I sent.

 

In Australia, we have numerous ATCM practitioners who expertly offer pulse

diagnoses, so to find a non Chinese practitioner who bridges a gap between the

known and the unknown for Mr and Mrs Average Australian and who bridges the gap

between Allopathy and Naturopathy, this has to be a bonus.

 

All things are known somewhere in the Universe - but not everyone who is really

sick can a find practitioner who offers acceptable treatments to the patient in

their limited knowledge of health. When people are stuck in orthodoxy but still

wish to remain on the planet it is very good to be able to point them to a

practitioner who can really help them in the direction of better health and whom

they also find acceptable.

 

Jane

[Guest guest]

ayurveda , " Jane MacRoss " <highfield1

wrote:

>

> Thankyou but I was replying to Liz's post and I can't find a post

from you on this subject - nor can I find anywhere mentioned this was

anything new in origin>>>

 

In the post I had made to you, I was agreeing with you. I do not agree

with Todd that Autonomic Response is not a valid diagnostic tool, I

just wanted to remind that observation of the Autonomic responses are

the major way we have been observing symptomology since ancient times.

I am glad that main stream Allopaths are finally catching up with

traditional observers.

 

The Autonomic nervous system and it's opposing and balancing qualites

were among the first advanced observations made by ancient observers.

Some of the most sophistecated observations in traditional arts and

sciense were based on these observations, like in medicine and

spiritual development.

 

Whole new psychological understandings have been developed in modern

times based on these concepts. I stayed some years ago at the Rajneesh

ashram in Pune, and there were many new theraputics being developed

there, and Rejneesh himself developed several techinques based on his

understanding of the ANS and the way to heal it's imbalances.

 

Ayurveda needs new work in the psychological aspects of the ANS. One

of the greatest realizations of the ways to heal the opposing

imbalances of the ANS is Patanjali's system of Yoga. Robert Svoboda

worte a book 'Prakriti: Your Ayurvedic Constitution', which is

essentially his understanding of the way that psychology manifests in

our Prakruti. I have always appreciated this book because many people

who have more of a psychological orientation than a physical

opientation have been able to understand Prakruti in an easier way,

Many western people are much more tuned into their minds than their

bodies. In TCM Lonny Jarrett has written a brilliant book on the

psychological manifestation of the five elements and their infinite

fluctuations and balances as the Yin and Yang, this book is

'Nourishing Destiny: The Inner Tradition of '.

 

In my understanding the Autonomic responses are key to understanding

what is happening in our minds/ bodies/ and spirits.

 

Jane, I am sorry if you got confused because I answered you on Dr.

Kumar's account. Since I have been with the Kumars for two months,

Dr. Rupa Kumar and I read the posts on this group every day, a couple

of times I have answered from his account. This is because for me to

use my computer we have to unplug the cable to their computer and

connect my computer to it, so I usually only write my long posts on my

computer, when I sign in from my account. I hate to tie up their

computer or the cable since many people use their computer. Dr. Ajit

Kumar is going to get a wireless network set up so we can all use our

computers. Dr. Vinod Kumar, Dr. Rupa Kumar, and I all have our laptops

with us, so there are 4 computers in the house. Again sorry if it

caused any confusion.

 

Liz

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz

 

You didn't actually sign your post from Dr Vinod Kumar's account - this

would have been the only way I could possibly know it was from you and not

from the account holder.

 

The discussion is interesting however - like most people I am very busy and

merely mentioned this technique in passing to support a " kinesiology " type

of diagnostic technique which is being used for good - rather than the usual

random hit and miss - or miss and miss that we find in everyday allopathy

 

Best,

 

Jane

[Guest guest]

It seemed that Jane was innocently asking me for my opinion re:

" Vascular Autonomic Signal " , and my comments were related to the

information presented in the links that I reviewed, which said next

to nothing about the specific technique so I reserved my opinion.

Ultimately, it seems no different to me than muscle testing for an

" allergy " , except that the pulse is used instead. What I always find

interesting is that a person's body is supposedly able to " tell " what

it is " allergic " to, even though the person only ever comes into

contact with the container holding the offending substance, instead

of the substance itself. This is apart from the fact that there is

no explanation of how this technique is valid or how it works. Until

a direct cause and relationship can be established, the procedure is

anumana (inference) and has a high degree of confirmation bias and

must be correlated with other findings including clinical observation

(pratyaksha) and case history (sabda). Please contrast this to

something like Coca's Pulse test, which examines the pulse at

intervals after the person actually _consumes_ the potentially

offending food item: http://www.toddcaldecott.com/coca_pulse.html.

 

If we want to turn this into a conversation about pulse diagnosis,

then I am fine with that. However, I think it is a stretch to say

that this rather grandly entitled technique is one and the same with

nadi pariksha, or other pulse assessment techniques used in Tibetan

or Chinese medicine. Regardless of the technique used to assess the

pulse, much of it remains anumana because it relies on inferential

reasoning rather than a direct observation. Coca's pulse test is a

partial exception, but it still relies on inference as well because

it does not actually measure an allergic response, only what is

thought to be a correlation between the allergic response and

systemic vascular changes (please note - this once the person has

actually consumed the substance, rather than holding a PET or glass

bottle). This is not to say that inference is wrong. Inference is

still a valid method to obtain diagnostic information, but as Charaka

clearly explains, that when you rely on just one pramana the

diagnosis is more likely to be in error.

 

Also, it is clear that while techniques like pulse are given

prominence, there are some practical problems. In a previous email,

Liz makes the point:

 

> Unfortunately, of the dozens of practioners I have met

> and observed who use pulse diagnosis, only a handful actually have

> great skill at this science and art

 

This alone is a telling opinion. Why should a tool which is

practiced with apparent skill by so few people be lauded above other

techniques? My opinion is that people who rely on pulse and nothing

else and have a high degree of accuracy (which may or may not be

true) have developed or been blessed with a siddhi, or are liars and

frauds, typically relying upon hot and cold reading techniques.

Being a master of pulse to the exclusion of the other techniques

mentioned in the shastras including akriti, sabda, mutra etc is not a

requirement of practicing Ayurveda, and indeed, would seem to

contradict the basic ethic of making a proper diagnosis. Even if one

doesn't use all eight methods in the ashtasthana pariksha, but uses

several in conjunction with the dashavidha pariksha, the diagnosis is

more likely to be accurate. To place one method of assessment above

others is to do serious injustice to the methodology of Ayurvedic

diagnosis. In Kerala, very few physicians I have met know anything

about the actual practice of pulse diagnosis, but they are still able

to make accurate and effective diagnoses without it.

 

Caldecott, Dip. Cl.H, RH(AHG)

Ayurvedic practitioner, Medical Herbalist

203 - 1750 East 10th Ave

Vancouver, BC V5N 5K4 CANADA

web: http//:www.toddcaldecott.com

email: todd

tel: (1)778.896.8894

fax: (1)866.703.2792

[Guest guest]

On 5-May-08, at 3:51 AM, ayurveda wrote:

 

> In the post I had made to you, I was agreeing with you. I do not agree

> with Todd that Autonomic Response is not a valid diagnostic tool

 

 

One thing I want to add, is that this comment is a misrepresentation

of my earlier comments - purposefully or not I do not know, but it

unfortunately appears to be a common theme from this particular

faction. My comments:

 

> The link really doesn't provide much information at all, and a

> little more digging didn't yield much more. From an Ayurvedic

> perspective, it almost certainly is based on inference or anumana.

> Rather than try to deflate other people's clinical methods, my

> point is that inferential techniques cannot substitute a thorough

> case history and directly observable clinical skills, e.g.

> palpation, auscultation, observation of urine, feces etc. Whether

> " autonomic vascular response " is valid is probably dependent upon

> the well-rounded skills of the practitioner.

 

I think on the whole provide a fair-minded and balanced assessment of

this problem. I also use pulse, and have developed some reasonable

skill, and have even taught a few Indian vaidyas some simple

techniques. For sure, I can't tell someone that they have a tumor in

particular location in the body, or what flavor their birthday cake

was when they were five years old, but it does provide useful

information about the dominant doshas, the nature of digestion (agni)

and vitality (ojas), and can provide helpful information on organ

system imbalances. But as far as my clinical practice is concerned,

I never use pulse or tongue without getting a comprehensive case

history to compare and contrast my findings.

 

Caldecott, Dip. Cl.H, RH(AHG)

Ayurvedic practitioner, Medical Herbalist

203 - 1750 East 10th Ave

Vancouver, BC V5N 5K4 CANADA

web: http//:www.toddcaldecott.com

email: todd

tel: (1)778.896.8894

fax: (1)866.703.2792

[Guest guest]

I absolutely agree with this Todd - that it is a kinesiological type of

diagnostic tool - what gets me is that I find this Dr charismatic and feel

confident when in her presence and agree with her decisions about what

remedies and other supplements her patients - including myself - need -

however - when I am NOT in her presence - I do not feel the same way and

both use and trial products that I am told do not agree with me. And at

times I also wonder about the containers that the supplements being tested

are in. Sometimes I eat foods I am advised not to - fruit for example - I

think I was down to only three types of fruit at my last visit - but I

happily ate several types of fruit and then was not always physically

comfortable after that but I still felt I had to eat some fruit anyway -

then on another occasion I wanted one of her patients to use mangosteen

juice and Miracle II detox and Dr said NO even as I lifted them off the

floor to be tested with the patient - she said NO and then the products

tested NO - so my feelings that this could be a subjective response on the

part of the Dr, felt justified. At the same time I know she offers

solutions away from Chemo and Radiotherapy that are not offered by any other

GP here. So one has to take the apparent good with the apparent anomalies.

This is not a personal comment on the Dr herself it is a comment on any type

of kinesiology-type diagnosis.

 

Another practitioner I have attended - for brain-tune kinesiology sessions -

will not even attempt to use kinesiology as a diagnostic tool for

prescribing - she specifies that only MDs can prescribe and that she is not

qualified to do so despite the similar responses she achieved when I double

checked the recommendations of the Dr with her, both for me and for another

patient. It is good to check to see how much the two techniques tally.

 

As far as containers are concerned one can discount the impact those

materials may have in the initial assessment - they can be excluded in the

testing of the contents of those containers

Best,

 

JAne

 

> It seemed that Jane was innocently asking me for my opinion re:

> " Vascular Autonomic Signal " , and my comments were related to the

> information presented in the links that I reviewed, which said next

> to nothing about the specific technique so I reserved my opinion.

> Ultimately, it seems no different to me than muscle testing for an

> " allergy " , except that the pulse is used instead. What I always find

> interesting is that a person's body is supposedly able to " tell " what

> it is " allergic " to, even though the person only ever comes into

> contact with the container holding the offending substance, instead

> of the substance itself. This is apart from the fact that there is

> no explanation of how this technique is valid or how it works. Until

> a direct cause and relationship can be established, the procedure is

> anumana (inference) and has a high degree of confirmation bias and

> must be correlated with other findings including clinical observation

> (pratyaksha) and case history (sabda). Please contrast this to

> something like Coca's Pulse test, which examines the pulse at

> intervals after the person actually _consumes_ the potentially

> offending food item: http://www.toddcaldecott.com/coca_pulse.html.