vitamins are toxic??

[Guest guest]

I am sorry, but biokinesiology is not a valid method to test for

actual nutritional deficiencies. This method has a high propensity

for confirmation bias and like all inferential techniques cannot be

used as a reliable method of diagnosis. The best and most cost-

effective method to determining nutrient deficiencies is a thorough

analysis of the case history and physical examination. As a rule of

thumb, individual nutrients should not be used in isolation. For

example, many minerals act as competitive antagonists of other

minerals, e.g. Ca vs Mg, Cu vs Zn, etc. As a result, these should be

taken in balanced ratios, or if specific nutrients are taken, they

should be simultaenously taken with a multinutrient combination to

prevent supplement-induced deficiencies, e.g. a Zn supplement, with a

multimineral. The best sources of all nutrients are foods, esp.

those with a high nutrient density such as seaweeds, bone broths,

herbs, etc. Fat-soluble vitamins incl. A, D, E and K are best taken

from food as well, but D3 as Liz mentions should be taken in

supplemental form by those who live in temperate climates. Same goes

for EFAs, unless someone takes care to make sure they consume foods

with sufficient n3s, e.g. fish fat, grass-fed meat/butter/ghee, leafy

greens and various nuts/seeds like flax, hemp etc. Water-soluble

vitamins like Bs and C are safe to take on a daily basis and cannot

practically achieve a toxic level. The idea that " most vitamins are

toxic " however is pure nonsense! Unlike bhasmas, where are the case

histories demonstrating actual toxicity? Let's remember that most of

these nutrients are essential or conditionally essential, and there

is no molecular basis that defines them as toxic. The worst thing

about most supplements is their source, i.e. synthetic vs natural,

animal vs vegetable, and liquid vs tablet (the latter of which

include all the excipients...).

Caldecott

todd

www.toddcaldecott.com

________________

Living in a Western society I too find it is very tempting to start

taking

multivitamins but when tested with kinesiology I have found

generally people

need perhaps one or two mineral supplements and not a whole heap of

different products -

[Guest guest]

vitamins may not be toxic, but the fillers in them could be.

_____________________________

I am sorry, but biokinesiology is not a valid method to test for

actual nutritional deficiencies.

[Guest guest]

Todd how about Autonomic Vascular Response? If this is your opinion of this

method also, my Dr is somewhat up the creek lol

 

http://thenaturalhealthguide.com.au/practitioners/vic/all+therapies/drmonicahenr\

y/

 

I do consider this to be a type of kinesiological diagnostic technique.

 

Best,

 

Jane

[Guest guest]

Hi Jane,

 

The link really doesn't provide much information at all, and a little

more digging didn't yield much more. From an Ayurvedic perspective,

it almost certainly is based on inference or anumana. Rather than

try to deflate other people's clinical methods, my point is that

inferential techniques cannot substitute a thorough case history and

directly observable clinical skills, e.g. palpation, auscultation,

observation of urine, feces etc. Whether " autonomic vascular

response " is valid is probably dependent upon the well-rounded skills

of the practitioner.

Caldecott

todd

www.toddcaldecott.com

[Guest guest]

I suppose the description I sent means more when you have seen it in

action - especially when you have seen it in action with 6 different people

and observed the different requirements and the individual improvements on

them all - but it does seem very like a kinesiology type of technique to me,

but one which works well.

 

Below is an excerpt from a website on Nogier:

 

Put in different terms, what Nogier discovered and what several people

around the world are now researching is that the arterial system displays a

specific physical reaction when objects (such as food, herbs or medicine)

present in the electromagnetic fields near to the periphery of the body

without touching it.

 

To describe a variation of how the clinical VAS technique can be utilized,

Ackerman explained how he could evaluate an infant with chronic diarrhea

after a pediatrician failed to find an etiology. With the mother lying on

her back and with the infant resting on her chest, Ackerman holds a

potentially allergic food that the mother commonly eats, near to the infant's

head while he palpates the radial artery of the mother to detect the

response of the vascular wall. If the tone of the arterial wall expands,

called the positive VAS, then Ackerman knows that particular substance

agrees with the body's constitution. However, if the tone of the arterial

wall contracts, called negative VAS, then he knows that the baby might be

allergic to that substance. Ackerman's mentor, Joseph H. Navach, taught that

if the radial arterial wall expands only for a duration of time between 9 to

18 seconds when a substance is held near to a patient's head this is an

indication that the substance has a therapeutic potential for that person.

Ackerman noted that the VAS is a non-invasive and harmless technique that

can be used for a variety of medical purposes. In addition to detecting

allergic reactions, Ackerman has also used it to evaluate dosage amount for

nutritional, herbal, homeopathic and allopathic medical prescriptions.

Experimentally, Navach made a video in the mid-80's demonstrating that the

area under the ultrasound recorded arterial pulse wave can be utilized to

objectively made these clinical determinations. This work has not yet been

duplicated.

 

Although it is challenging for those coming from the Western world view to

believe that the arterial system could physically react to a substance when

it enters the periphery of the human body without touching it, Ackerman

indicated that similar non-local phenomena occur in nature quite frequently.

Male moths, for example, use infrared signals to communicate with females.

Ducks, termites, and ants all use biophotons to communicate with each other.

In an attempt to understand these non-local communications by animals, in

1980 Joseph Navach did a study with flatworms utilizing acetylcholine. The

identical movement response appeared whether the acetylcholine was placed on

the surface of the worms, held at a distance, or bottled in a hermetically

sealed glass container touching the worm's surface or held at a distance.

When Navach shielded the flatworm with aluminum, the movement response was

enhanced by 20%. When shielded with a copper screen, without grounding, the

effect was enhanced 50%. When shielded with 1 mm. lead, the response

decreased by 30%. A 4 mm. lead shield completely eliminated the response. A

grounded copper screen permitted photo emission but not radio frequency

emission.

 

Jane

[Guest guest]

ayurveda , " Jane MacRoss "

<highfield1 wrote:

> arterial system displays a

> specific physical reaction when objects (such as food, herbs or

medicine)

> present in the electromagnetic fields near to the periphery of the

body

> without touching it.

 

same principle is used in detecting whetehr an oil is bneneficial for

an individual in

ayurveda/message/3055

 

 

 

> after a pediatrician failed to find an etiology. With the mother

lying on

> her back and with the infant resting on her chest, Ackerman holds a

> potentially allergic food that the mother commonly eats, near to

the infant's

> head while he palpates the radial artery of the mother to detect

the

> response of the vascular wall. If the tone of the arterial wall

expands,

> called the positive VAS, then Ackerman knows that particular

substance

> agrees with the body's constitution. However, if the tone of the

arterial

> wall contracts, called negative VAS, then he knows that the baby

might be

> allergic to that substance.

 

This technique rhymes with the pulse response mentioned in

ayurveda/message/4511

 

thus it seems that both use the same principle.

 

Ackerman's mentor, Joseph H. Navach, taught that

> if the radial arterial wall expands only for a duration of time

between 9 to

> 18 seconds when a substance is held near to a patient's head this

is an

> indication that the substance has a therapeutic potential for that

person.

 

Author found that a patient seating about 24 inches away, his pulse

drops the rate after some time, when pulse diagnosis is going on. and

the marma massage (Pressin medulla oblangata) is much more effective

when done by a vaidya, since the point is directly on the head of the

patient. These measures are an indicator of patients trust on vaidya,

his skill and his medicines.

 

> Ackerman noted that the VAS is a non-invasive and harmless

technique that

> can be used for a variety of medical purposes. In addition to

detecting

> allergic reactions, Ackerman has also used it to evaluate dosage

amount for

> nutritional, herbal, homeopathic and allopathic medical

prescriptions.

 

This technique can also be used to detect the guna of the substance

for a specific person. Please note, Guna belongs to the substance but

when a particular food is consumed in excess, it becomes tamasik, no

matter what guna it had earlier, acc. to Swamin Sivananda. Thus pulse

differential 30 minutes after ingestion can tell whether person is

going to benifit from the food, or is going to cause health damage.

 

Ancients recognized the influence of herbs in the patients close

environment. Hence the recommendations of keeping neem leaves near

bed if children having chickenpox, smallpox etc. One Indian ayurved

guru asked shishyas coming from middle east, to sleep under tamarind

tree in the forests during night. When the students reached India,

they were suffering from Sandhivata pains. While going, students were

asked to sleep close to arka trees and their swelligs+pains had

vanished. Hospitals specializing in chest diseases have planted neem

trees so that patients benifit.(e.g. Aundh near Pune, Wanless

hospital near Miraj) This indicates that Aromatherapy is not a recent

adition, but was known to ayurvedists.

[Guest guest]

Todd wrote;

 

>>>As a rule of thumb, individual nutrients should not be used in

isolation. >>>

 

Isolated nutrients have an inherent propensity to imbalance Doshas,

because of their powerful Rasa. This why such nutrients like vitamin

Bs and C are contraindicated for most people for whom we are trying to

encourage to reduce Pitta substances in their diets, these nutrients

also because of their powerful amla qualities disrupt digestion,

stress the liver and acidify the blood. Anyone who is trying to

compensate for poor eating habits by taking these substances is

following a system that is the opposite to a natural healing system

like Ayurveda. Compensatory techniques do not create health they

simply allow us to move along in our disease forming patterns. This is

the same technique the Allopaths use when they suppress disease with

drugs or cut out diseased tissue with scalpels. Combining Allopathic

techniques of healing with natural healing techniques will not heal

disease, at the least it will only create a kind of false stasis of

symptoms that will sooner or later have to be dealt with. Poor eating

habits and digestion problems will have to be resolved before we are

properly nourished. All the supplementation in the world will not

nourish us; only whole natural food can nourish the human body. It is

very clear that these substances in no way are equivalant to food.

There are studies done on several different species that tried to give

artificial diets of isolated nutrients, in every study the animals

quickly declined and died. And if we are not taking these substances

as food and are instead taking them as medicines then my question is,

why? It isn't as though we do not know how to heal disease in a more

natural way than taking powerful isolated chemicals.

 

We also have to carefully analyze these substances and how they are

prepared; before we make reckless statements, like, they are not

toxic. An isolated chemical is not a food no matter if a similar

substance (in a completely different dose, context, and form) is

contained in food. A simple analysis of vitamin and mineral

manufacturing methods reveals the potential dangers in taking them.

Someone mentioned excipients, this is only one issue; what about the

many toxic chemicals and procedures used in the extraction or

synthesizing processes? The residues of which, are left in finished

products. We are bombarded by toxic elements in our food, air, and

water; why compound this by deliberately taking more of this in

vitamin bottles. Todd argues against the taking of Bhasmas because of

their potential heavy metal contamination, well what about vitamins

and minerals which are prepared in huge plants in metal containers

which contain all kinds of alloys, which should never be consumed?

Fish oils, plant oils, etc, are often extracted in a completely toxic

manner and should not be used as a substitute for food. Even cold

pressed methods are suspect unless the product is taken fresh. What is

a fish oil that can be kept on the shelf for months or years without

going bad? How have they achieved this miracle? Take a fish liver and

press the oil and filter it and put it in a capsule, how long do you

think it would take before it would putrefy?

 

These kinds problems are also true of course for herbal extracts,

which I would like to see an in depth study done on. If we take a

potentially contaminated herb and condense it, in a possibly

contaminated container, then impress or encapsulate it in a machine

that also may be contaminated, what is actually in that product? Many

of the contaminations in herbal products that have been reported, are

not necessarily from the plants, they are from the manufacturing

process. These issues pertain to all processed foods and medicines.

The more steps a product goes through before it gets to the consumer

the greater the danger of contamination. I have been to the herbal

extraction facilities of two famous manufacturers in India and one in

China and one in Japan. These experiences have brought up many

questions in my mind about herbal extracts. I do not think the

products made in most of these places can be assumed to be safe. I

would not use them. This is not even taking into account the issue of

what has been lost in the process and what has been altered or damaged

by the process. I believe that many chemical constituents in herbal

extracts have been transformed by the process into alternative

chemical versions of the original chemicals contained in the plant,

some of which may or may not be toxic and or medically effective. In

China most people believe that taking medicines as fresh decoctions

are the best way to take herbs, they have a huge traditional system

for accommodating this understanding.

 

My main point is; why take chances, it isn't as if it is necessary. As

I said before not one person that I consider really healthy takes

vitamins, so it is obvious we do not need them to achieve health. I

have spent the past several weeks with Dr. Vipin Kumar and his wife,

both are close to 90 years old. Dr. Kumar has been a strict vegan for

over 50 years; he eats the best quality foods, takes no medicines or

vitamins, and occasionaly takes a few fresh herbs during changing

seasons. I have never met a person of his age who is even closely as

healthy as him, his mind is brilliant, and he has the flexibility of a

young man, he does yoga asana every day twice a day, and seems to have

unlimited energy. Mrs. Kumar follows a traditional Indian vegetarian

diet with small amounts of milk products, about half a cup of fresh

curd in the mornings, she takes rice about one cup at lunch and one

small glass of khani for the evening meal, Dr Kumar does not take

grains or milk, Mrs. Kumar only takes two meals, she says she takes

Brahmi Rasayana in the cold season, and she eats a few leaves of

Brahmi and Tulsi from her garden, every day. Both of these people,

actually eat little food compared to most people, and they certainly

do not need vitamins or medicines. Dr Kumar thinks vitamin

supplementation is a ridiculous concept.

 

These are the kind of people I want to be like not these many people

who pop vitamins, herbs, and minerals throughout the day, and still

have health problems. I saw the same things in the monasteries in

Japan, where people simply do not age in the way that the majority of

people do, the common complaints of ageing people do not occur there.

They like the Kumar's actually eat lightly, many only take two meals a

day, they avoid over alimentation like the plague, since they agree

traditionally with the modern concept that systematic, scientific

under eating is very beneficial to health. Dr. Kumar believes that

there are two major errors in supplementation and several minor

issues, those two are; the excess rasa is unbalancing to the

digestion, liver, blood, kidneys, and to the Doshas, and it is simple

over alimentation. We do not need large quantities of nutrients; in

fact excess in nutrients are major causes of disease. Traditional

medicine emphasizes excess in disease formation much more than

deficiencies. The best defense we have if we want to be healthy is to

live naturally. Eat well and live a health promoting lifestyle and

save your money by avoiding isolated nutrients, spend this money on

the highest quality food you can find. Most isolated nutrient

supplements by the way are lost in the urine and the stool, clearly

indicating they were not needed or utiized.

 

Liz

[Guest guest]

wrote;

>

> >>>As a rule of thumb, individual nutrients should not be used in

> isolation. >>>

>

> Isolated nutrients have an inherent propensity to imbalance Doshas,

> because of their powerful Rasa. This why such nutrients like vitamin

> Bs and C are contraindicated for most people for whom we are trying to

> encourage to reduce Pitta substances in their diets, these nutrients

> also because of their powerful amla qualities disrupt digestion,

> stress the liver and acidify the blood.

 

what is the evidence that these nutrients 'disrupt digestion etc'?

 

while ascorbic acid is sour (it is an acid after all), individual B's

are not (in fact, they are mostly flavorless, except for B2 which is

rather sulfurous, i.e. katu, not amla, and is responsible for the

yellow color and smell of b-vitamins)

 

further, there is no real evidence that either should be necessarily

contraindicated in pitta conditions

 

by this same logic, should we not use amalaki in pittakopa because it

contains naturally very high amounts of vitamin C?

 

the only inference that vit C increases pitta is that in very large

doses it will promote loose motions; however, so do certain laxatives

such as Trvrit, which reduces pitta!

so the logic here is flawed

 

everything we know about vit C is that it restore cellular

glutathione, which helps to quell inflammation

it certainly works better when complexed with naturally occurring

accessory nutrients, such as found in amalaki, acerola or rosehips,

but it doesn't defacto " increase pitta "

 

as far as B complex goes, it helps support elements of phase I and II

hepatic detoxification, which is the site of pitta

 

 

> Anyone who is trying to

> compensate for poor eating habits by taking these substances is

> following a system that is the opposite to a natural healing system

> like Ayurveda.

 

it is not just a matter of poor eating habits - we are talking about

supplementing for actual nutrient deficiencies in the diet that have

been very widespread

 

orthomolecular nutrition is an excellent method to restore proper

nutritional status while making the more gradual, deeper changes that

come with diet and lifestyle

for e.g. using vitamin Bs in alcoholism or celiac disease w/

chelitis, CoQ10 in statin-induced myopthy, Mg in hypertension... the

list is endless...

 

 

> Combining Allopathic

> techniques of healing with natural healing techniques will not heal

> disease, at the least it will only create a kind of false stasis of

> symptoms that will sooner or later have to be dealt with.

 

this sounds far too fundamentalist a perspective to my mind

there is a lot of room to implement complementary approaches, and

moreover, it is being done all the time with significant and lasting

results

 

 

> Poor eating

> habits and digestion problems will have to be resolved before we are

> properly nourished. All the supplementation in the world will not

> nourish us; only whole natural food can nourish the human body. It is

> very clear that these substances in no way are equivalant to food.

> There are studies done on several different species that tried to give

> artificial diets of isolated nutrients, in every study the animals

> quickly declined and died. And if we are not taking these substances

> as food and are instead taking them as medicines then my question is,

> why? It isn't as though we do not know how to heal disease in a more

> natural way than taking powerful isolated chemicals.

 

most people just don't suddenly stop their previous lifestyle and

diet - it usually takes some time, and thus nutritional

supplementation can give them a leg up while they make these changes;

further, chronic nutrient deficiencies often cannot be addressed

through diet alone, at least not in the short term

 

nutritional supplementation can have an immediate and direct

improvement in symptoms, not by suppressing pathological processes,

but by supporting the underlying physiology

 

 

> We also have to carefully analyze these substances and how they are

> prepared; before we make reckless statements, like, they are not

> toxic.

 

it is not reckless to state that when used in the proper fashion that

vitamins and minerals are not toxic

indeed, these substances are the very thing found in our food and are

involved in a multitude of physiological processes, so how could they

be inherently toxic?

 

this is very unlike lead, mercury and arsenic, which by any non-

faith based measure is a much more reckless proposition

 

 

> An isolated chemical is not a food no matter if a similar

> substance (in a completely different dose, context, and form) is

> contained in food. A simple analysis of vitamin and mineral

> manufacturing methods reveals the potential dangers in taking them.

> Someone mentioned excipients, this is only one issue; what about the

> many toxic chemicals and procedures used in the extraction or

> synthesizing processes? The residues of which, are left in finished

> products. We are bombarded by toxic elements in our food, air, and

> water; why compound this by deliberately taking more of this in

> vitamin bottles.

 

 

argues against the taking of Bhasmas because of

> their potential heavy metal contamination, well what about vitamins

> and minerals which are prepared in huge plants in metal containers

> which contain all kinds of alloys, which should never be consumed?

 

there are always potential problems with manufacturing and thus the

potential for contamination

that is why there are manufacturing standards like ISO 9000, as well

as independent laboratory analysis to ensure proper GMPs

 

it is clear that your argument is really not just with vitamins and

minerals, but is with the entire supplement manufacturing industry,

which should therefore include all products, Ayurvedic, Chinese or

otherwise, that are including prepared with the same kind of equipment

 

stating this clearly would be much more genuine approach, instead of

singling out one particular aspect such as vitamins and minerals and

calling them " toxic "

 

i spent six years as director of a herbal college, and in that time,

i taught many people how to wildcraft and make their own medicines

currently, one of my volunteer efforts is to teach people with HIV/

AIDS and cancer to cook medicinal foods, rather than rely on supplements

 

nonetheless, i cannot say there is no value in taking supplements,

esp. when nutrients deficiencies have been identified as a cause of

major illness

 

vitamin supplementation has virtually wiped out several diseases,

including rickets, scurvy, goiter and beri beri - can you say there

is no benefit?

 

one could argue that these diseases would never occurred if people

continued to eat traditional foods (which i heartily agree with), but

people do not eat this way any more, and even when they think they

are they don't, for e.g. look at all the white rice that is given as

part of the " Ayurvedic " diet

 

Eddie Vos has an excellent page with very convincing arguments that

we should all be supplementing for micronutrient deficiencies: http://

www.health-heart.org/

 

>

> Fish oils, plant oils, etc, are often extracted in a completely toxic

> manner and should not be used as a substitute for food. Even cold

> pressed methods are suspect unless the product is taken fresh. What is

> a fish oil that can be kept on the shelf for months or years without

> going bad? How have they achieved this miracle? Take a fish liver and

> press the oil and filter it and put it in a capsule, how long do you

> think it would take before it would putrefy?

 

putrefaction relates to protein - i think you mean peroxidation - no?

anyway, i wrote an article on this very subject a couple years ago on

Nicholas Regush's (now defunct) site 'Red Flags Daily', entitled

" There is something fishy about fish oil "

 

an excerpt:

 

" Unlike expeller-pressed seed oils like flax and hemp, the processing

of fish oil is a highly technical and labor-intensive procedure.

First the fish is cooked to a temperature of 95 degree Celsius,

pressed and decanted. After being sent to storage tanks, the oils

then undergo a series of procedures to purify them, including

degumming, neutralizing, washing, winterizing, filtration, bleaching,

polishing and deodorization. These techniques involve exposing the

oil to a number of different chemicals as well as more heat, which

degrades the quality of the oil further. Some companies use an

expensive technique called “molecular distillation” instead of using

steam to avoid degrading the oils further, but even this technique

involves very high temperatures, albeit for a shorter period of

time. The net result is that the end product is likely very

different from the beneficial oil found in the raw fish. Even the

product literature produced by these companies admits that the oil

undergoes some degree of isomerization. As far as the consumer needs

to know, “isomerization” means transfatty acid, the very thing all of

us are trying to avoid. "

 

my comments at the end of the article:

 

" There is no doubt that EFA deficiencies are endemic to North

America, but the solution is not another supplement. The problem

began with shifts in how we produce our food, feeding animals grain

instead of grass, which reduces the EFA content of their tissues, and

processing normally delicate vegetable oils, stripping away EFAs to

increase their shelf life and make them heat-stable. Thus the

solution lies in correcting this problem. If you want to correct EFA

ratios in your diet, buy free range, grass-fed organic meat and

eggs. Get your seed oils from unhulled seeds, grinding them up in a

food mill just before consumption. Eat your leafy greens, which

contain appreciable amounts of essential fatty acids as well as a

host of antioxidant chemicals. As far as fish goes, choose wild fish

over farmed fish, and eat low on the food chain, choosing smaller

fish over the larger ones to limit exposure to environmental toxins.

If you need an oil to cook with, choose heat stable oils rich in

saturated and monosaturated fat, including butter, ghee, coconut,

olive and sesame oil. To eat this way is to eat the way of your

grandparents, before the problem of EFA deficiencies ever cropped up. "

 

so your position is not unique, but it is over-the-top

 

despite the issues raised around, i still see clinical benefit from

supplementation where people have not made the changes fundamentally

necessary to good health

 

and even in this case, what people call a good diet might not be,

particularly when they are towing the line of a particular dietary

philosophy that doesn't respect their ancestry (patra), climate

(desha) and season (kala)

 

 

> My main point is; why take chances, it isn't as if it is necessary. As

> I said before not one person that I consider really healthy takes

> vitamins, so it is obvious we do not need them to achieve health.

 

healthy people shouldn't need to take vitamins or herbs or anything

except food and exercise, but i have found that they are an

invaluable component of a clinical practice, and if one sources them

correctly, they a very safe to tool to support health in those whose

nutritional status has been compromised for a long time, which is a

rather large population

 

comparing this issue to bhasmas is disingenuous

 

todd

 

Caldecott, Dip. Cl.H, RH(AHG)

Ayurvedic practitioner, Medical Herbalist

203 - 1750 East 10th Ave

Vancouver, BC V5N 5K4 CANADA

web: http//:www.toddcaldecott.com

email: todd

tel: (1)778.896.8894

fax: (1)866.703.2792

[Guest guest]

thanks

very informative as usual