heavy metals again...

[Guest guest]

I feel that bhasma treatment is a matter of specialisation. Those who are not

properly trained / qualified institutionally and do not have the confidence to

use them should be better off them, rather than just arguing for the sake of

argumentation. Laymen should be definitely not using them of their own accord,

by reading books or through friendly advises.using herbs and staying safe would

be a better policy for them.

And by the way, signs and symptoms are indeed Trividha Pariksha, which I think I

am in a better position to understand than anybody explaining me,that too a

non-doctor person.

 

Dr.D.B.Muzumdar

M.D.Ayurveda-Medicine (Mumbai-India)

[Guest guest]

The question is not about the person dispensing the bashmas in this case

but rather the quality of the product itself. Its questionable toxic

effects on the body has been diagnosed by specialist in several

countries now - so it appears that bashmas can cause metal toxicity to

the body.

 

If, as you suggest that bhasma treatment is a matter of specialisation

then it appears you agree that bhasmas are dangerous in the wrong hands.

Why have you come to this conclusion? Is it because of the toxicity

issue or some other reason? I don't personally see what confidence has

to do with it, except in this case because of the concern that is being

expressed regarding its safety.

 

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

John

 

 

> I feel that bhasma treatment is a matter of specialisation.

[Guest guest]

i have personally come across a spiritual person who

lived 117 years youthfully another native physician

died at the age of 92 with extraordinary health

conditions they lived and both of them improved their

health by consuming mercury compound, gold etc.

i accept and follow the texts of ancient masters

and i too belive these products will help to extend

life .

R.vidhyasagar.

[Guest guest]

It is definitely the quality of product that counts when results are expected,

either favourable or adverse. The toxicity is found in products with

questionable manufacture, when the processing of metals and minerals is not done

totally according to Rasashastra specifications, but are processed using

short-cuts.

Bhasma treatment definitely requires a greater insight in evaluating Prakruti,

Agni, Koshtha, Saatmya, Dushya, Desha, Bal and many other factors. Bhasma

indications are not empirical. A proper combination has to be derived at, taking

into consideration the various factors mentioned. The adverse effects could

happen if all factors do not match properly. Hence the issue of specialisation

is important.

Toxicity and adverse effects are two seperate phenomena. Toxicity occurs because

of improper manufacture while adverse effects happen due to improper application

of usage.

Even water can turn into poison for a patient of renal failure. Even vitamins

can cause bad effects due to overdosage. Medication is after all a responsible

job.

Most of the practitioners in India feel that the issue of toxicity is

hyper-advertised, just to malign the image of Ayurveda, as Ayurveda has started

to gain popularity , which the medicos of modern medicine do not wish to happen.

Modern drugs are turning out to be toxins and poisons in various aspects,

inspite of their detailed testings and trials, vouching for safety in human

consumption. Then, how the scenario will change after testing for bhasmas, from

those who are baised in their views about Ayurveda?

 

Dr.D.B.Muzumdar

M.D.Ayurveda-Medicine (Mumbai-India)

 

 

The question is not about the person dispensing the bashmas in this case but

rather the quality of the product itself. I

[Guest guest]

It's not just Bhasma, but is true of many herbal decoctions and allopathic

medicines as well -- that if they are not prepared well, they can be toxic --

why can't Bhasma be put in the same category as other medicines then? I have

personally witnessed the power of Bhasma myself during my treatment - I don't

quite recall if that Bhasma was made from mercury or not, but was so powerful

that it took care of splitting headache in just a matter of 5-8 minutes. I have

not seen an allopathic analgesic work so fast.

 

Matt

 

 

 

The question is not about the person dispensing the bashmas in this case

but rather the quality of the product itself.

[Guest guest]

that assumes that the product is non-toxic in the first place, which

has not yet been established

 

dr. vidhyasagar mentioned that he has met long-lived people that

have taken bhasmas, for which i can easily reply there are many other

people who have engaged in less than 'safe' habits who also display

remarkable longevity

 

for e.g., comedian George Burns smoked on average of 10-15 cigars a

day and lived to a hundred; and most recently, there is France's

Jeanne Calment, who lived to 122, and regularly smoked cigarettes and

drank port

 

--- however, we could hardly recommend these as 'healthy' practices,

and it should not stop us from assessing and defining the risk very

clearly so that doctors and patients are clearly informed

 

toxicity must be established for bhasmas simply because the starting

material are identified toxins

enough with conjecture please

Caldecott

todd

www.toddcaldecott.com

_________________

 

It is definitely the quality of product that counts when results

are expected, either favourable or adverse. The toxicity is found

in products with questionable manufacture, when the processing of

metals and minerals is not done totally according to Rasashastra

specifications, but are processed using short-cuts.

[Guest guest]

Assuming toxicity as well as non toxicity of the Bhasma is unwise. There are

many factors involved. We will have to start with writing Standard Operating

Procedures of manufacturing bhasma. The toxic or non toxic effects by use of

Bhasma manufactured as per SOPs in normal individual and in patients indicated

for the use of Bhasma should be observed. Duration of use of bhasma, doses,

anupana has to be decided before their use. The Bhasma used in Kalapa and in

isolation may have some different effects. We have to work on it. We will have

to decide first e.g. whether Somanathi Tamra bhasma should be used in

manufacturing Sutashekhara or a Tamra Bhasma in which formation, a oozing liquid

of Umbar is used should be used for the manufacturing of Sutashekara and after

that we can observe toxicity of Tamra bhasma in Sutashrkhara. Again while

judging toxicity of Tamra bhasma in Sutashekar we must keep in mind that for the

manufacturing Sutashekar we are using

kajjali in which Mercury is used.

There are so many factors are embedded in each others. Hence I think discussion

on issue of toxicity of Bhasma will lead us to more confusion and toward big

zero. A positive action and research must be done. This is only possible at

institutional or government level.

Vaidya Upadhye

http://www.astroayurvedalogy.com

http://www.astrotreat.blogspot.com

[Guest guest]

I have no problem with the recommendation that ayurveda herbs/medicines

used for medical purposes really need to be dispensed by a person

trained in ayurvedic and ayurvedic medicine. This becomes clear of

course once one knows and has studies such and worked with them. Common

sense really. However this is not what happens in the world we live in

as the herbs are freely available in some places, as are the compounds

that are made from them like the Bhasmas we have been discussing.

 

With the bhasmas in question, we do not appear to have any study proving

they contain any toxic elements or not. But it is suggested that there

are people out there making these products that have not followed the

proper guidelines as you say and therefore, for this reason the products

may contain toxins/heavy metals.

 

If this is indeed the case, (I am leaving the issue of scientific

testing of products for now) then there needs to be some testing down by

exporters before they are allowed to export these products out of India.

Is it possible for you, in your position to promote this with the Indian

Government?

 

I would agree that the few cases of people being diagnosed with metal

toxicity from Ayurveda herbs containing metals has received a great deal

of publicity from the scientific community because Ayurveda is beginning

to become more popular outside India. There are forces at work here

perhaps which have their own motives. Yet the issues they raise do need

to be answered in a clear and scientific manner to gain credibility.

Yes, the texts are clear and give good guidelines which is fine for

India today, but over here we have to provide scientific evidence to

backup what we say rather than pointing to texts - something that will

come to India in due course also.

 

It is a difficult paradigm shift I guess.

 

Namaste

John

[Guest guest]

Research in toxicity of medicines in the current era started because modern

medicine / allopathy started experimenting with isolation of active factors from

natural ingredients and trying them on animals. Before trying these molecules on

human beings, the LD-50 ( 50 percent of lethal dose) dose had to be determined

according to the Food and Drug regulations. This is how the toxicity testing

concept came into practice.

When we think of Ayurveda, the situation is different. Rasashastra which

originated in medieval times, was upheld by Raj-Vaidyas ie. the physicians of

King / ruler. The royal families always preferred, supported and guarded the

treatment of bhasmas and Raj-Vaidyas. Now, is it not the matter of common

sense, that had the bhasmas been so rampantly toxic, would the blue blood be so

much irresponsible to flounder their precious lives, health and wealth, in the

name of bhasmas?

All these bhasmas have been in use since more than 400 years, to be most

conservative. If the proportions of toxicity were so significant, would the

prevelent civilisations continue the trend of therapeutic use of bhasmas for so

many centuries?

All members should take this history into consideration too. Or then consider

that all Indians and their rulers were fools who continued to use bhasmas

inspite of experiencing the morbidity and mortality due to bhasmas.

 

Sarve Bhadrani Pashyantu

 

Dr.D.B.Muzumdar

M.D.Ayurveda-Medicine(Mumbai-India0

< dahpc >

 

 

Assuming toxicity as well as non toxicity of the Bhasma is unwise. There are

many factors involved.

[Guest guest]

as far as i know the rasa shastra of the natha siddhas was developed as a kind

of sadhana

- i doubt any one of them would have suggested that these practices be

undertaken by

just anyone, and esp. those who might be ill

 

your point about rasa shatra being the domain of kings is well-taken - after,

who else

would have been able to subsidize a physician to painstakingly prepare these

remedies?

 

apart from the knowledge, the time and care it takes to prepare such remedies

would have

made them rare therapeutic choices, as opposed to natural herbs and foods for

99% of the

population - indeed, remedies fit for a king!

 

and yet, let's say after 20 years of bhasma usage, the king develops a disease,

perhaps of

the nervous system or kidneys - how many physicians would have known that the

cause

were the heavy metals? are you very confident physicians would have the

clinical skills

alone to determine the cause, if it was lead or mercury toxicity? i am not so

sure...

 

best... Todd Caldecott