heavy metals again...

[Guest guest]

This time in my city. I hope news pieces like this impress upon

those that would deny any risk with bhasmas to look seriously at the

issue of proper toxicological trials. If properly prepared bhasmas

are demonstrated to be safe then it is easier to address issues such

as these. But until that happens, Ayurveda will continue to get a

bad reputation.

 

***

 

Poisonings prompt remedy alert

Two men treated after ingesting heavy metals in substances bought in

India

 

Pamela Fayerman

Vancouver Sun

 

The hospitalizations of two men who suffered heavy metal poisoning

from Ayurvedic remedies they bought in India have prompted warnings

about contamination from the B.C. Centre for Disease Control.

 

In the recent unrelated cases, the traditional, primarily herbal

concoctions were analysed by toxicologists at the B.C. Drug and

Poison Control Information Centre and found to contain dangerously

high levels of lead, arsenic and mercury.

 

The sick patients had to undergo treatment to expel the metals from

their bloodstreams.

 

However, both eventually recovered.

 

Rob Gair, a pharmacist at the Drug and Poison Control Information

Centre, said in an interview Monday that although Ayurvedic medicine

is popular in India and elsewhere, it is not uncommon for it to be

tainted by heavy metals.

 

" I can't quantify for you how many cases like these we've heard about

in the last few years, but there have been enough that we felt we

needed to draw attention to it, " he said.

 

" Folks buy these medicines in India and bring them back and the

evidence of the presence of heavy metals in them is well documented

in the scientific literature. "

 

In an article in the current B.C. Medical Journal, in which he

describes the two recent B.C. cases to highlight the possible dangers

of Ayurvedic remedies, Gair states: " . . . the concentration of heavy

metals may be excessive because poor quality control allows for

contamination, adulteration, or improper purification. "

 

Gair would not disclose the identities of the men, but said one went

to a hospital in Vancouver and the other to a hospital in the Fraser

Valley.

In the first case, the man went to the emergency department feeling

ill with vomiting and diarrhea.

 

Laboratory analysis of his blood showed abnormalities consistent with

heavy metal poisoning. He admitted he had been using Ayurvedic remedy

tablets daily to boost his energy levels.

 

In the second case, a young man with diabetes went to hospital with

severe abdominal pain, nausea and vomiting. For the previous six

weeks, he had been taking three teaspoons a day of an herb said to

help his diabetes symptoms. He had purchased the coarse grey-coloured

powder at a temple in India.

 

Gair said that in each case, the doctors at the hospitals called the

poison control centre to ask advice on how to prepare a proper

antidote for the poisonings. Removing the lead from the body involves

a process called chelation. The heavy metals bind to a sulphur-based

chemical compound and the metals are excreted in urine.

 

While emergency doctors may have a high degree of suspicion about

alternative medicines that may be causing patients problems, " the

same degree of suspicion may not exist in the Indo-Canadian community

so increasing awareness is important, " Gair said.

 

As to whether the poisoned patients have sworn off their traditional

remedies, Gair said: " Yeah, I think they have. "

 

Meanwhile, the same issue of the B.C. Medical Journal highlights the

potential danger of Chinese herbal remedies.

 

Dr. H.C. George Wong, a Vancouver physician who frequently draws

attention to the pitfalls of such remedies, reported on his most

recent visits to local Chinese herbal shops.

 

At one, he found Jin Kui Sen Wan pills containing aconiti tuber

lateralist and seven other herbs used to relieve coughs.

 

The herbs have cardiac side-effects, cautions Wong, a clinical

associate professor in the division of allergy and immunology at the

University of B.C. and a member of the B.C. Medical Association's

committee on alternative therapies.

 

At one shop, Wong found Chin Wan Hung ointment containing myrrha and

other herbs that are known to cause allergic skin irritations. He

also found Authentic Red Flower Oil containing methyl salicylate and

cinnamon oil, said to be for the relief of conditions including

rheumatism, sciatica, sprains and bruises. The problem with those

ingredients, Wong said, is that they can cause blood-clotting problems.

 

He also found a remedy called Chin So Ku Ching, which advertised on

its label that it contained " no poison. " Wong said it is not clear

whether that means that it is free of heavy metals like lead and

mercury.

 

He said doctors need to take careful histories from patients about

their use of complementary and alternative medicines.

 

" Patients should be asked to bring in all products or pill bottles to

their visits. Careful examinations of all of them . . . should be

carried out. "

 

© The Vancouver Sun 2008

 

http://www.canada.com/topics/bodyandhealth/story.html?id=f9db2b37-\

a006-4e84-bc75-3c6c2f73b97b

 

Caldecott

todd

www.toddcaldecott.com

[Guest guest]

We genuinely appreciate Todd’s concern regarding

sporadic bad reputation of Ayurvedic toxicity in some

areas known to be heavily lobbied by pharmaceutical

economics. We are getting the matter of concern

appropriately ready to the notion of the Department of

Ayush, Govt. of India.

 

We should keep our intellect open till the things are

corrected and changed in due courses. We have to

depend on clinical potential of good ayurvedic Bhasmas

(e.g. Mercury: Ras Sindoor) which are becoming our

compulsive option to combat the so called uncontrolled

serious ailments of modern era.

 

The ayurvedic Bhasmas of heavy metals are very

powerful weapons to counter act the terrorizing

effects of current unhealthy life style. Mere

ayurvedic herbs can not help. We have to combine it

with diet and life style for a safer and lasting cure.

 

Mukesh D Jain MD

Indian Society of Clinical Ayurveda

______________________

This time in my city. I hope news pieces like this

impress upon

those that would deny any risk with bhasmas to look

seriously at the

issue of proper toxicological trials.

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr. Mukesh,

 

In an earlier post you mentioned a clinical comparison between

conventional and traditional medicine, and I think this is our best

hope for any useful data on the benefits of traditional systems like

Ayurveda and complimentary and alternative medicine (CAM).

 

Here in British Columbia, the gov't just made acupuncture part of the

medical services plan, so that acupuncture visits are covered. No

doubt this is a big reflection of rather large Chinese population

here, but also because TCM is becoming entrenched in North America as

the major holistic modality. On our Canadian broadcast radio station

today I was listening to a comment from a medical researcher about

acupuncture being covered, and he rather boldly stated his concerns

that the few " higher quality " clinical trials have shown no benefit,

despite the fact that the more abundant " lower " quality trials have.

In his mind of course, this translates to a research bias.

Unfortunately, the problem actually lies more with his own bias about

the validity of double-blind placebo-controlled studies, and the

inability of the medical research community to thus far adapt to the

complexity (read sophistication) of interventions such as Ayurveda.

Having an evidence-based trial that compares outcomes between

conventional medicine and CAM is our best bet, but for medicine this

is the golden chalice and they won't give it up without a battle.

Anyway, I am pretty confident that we know what the result would be,

and if there is any conspiracy it is this.

 

Nonetheless, there are some medical researchers studying CAM and they

are well aware of the research problems. One stepping stone to

establishing this kind of research though is satisfying all of the

ethical requirements, so that patients would not be put at risk. As

a result, any of the interventions would have to be demonstrated as

safe, even at a much higher level than drugs, simply because there is

no " proven " evidence of efficacy. At the least we could claim to be

(mostly) benign. Already we can find toxicological data on many

herbs, but nothing exists for bhasmas. I don't think I agree with

you that bhasmas are a necessary part of Ayurveda, and I think there

are still many more safe options to exhaust, not just in the Indian

materia medica, but in the diversity of herbs found all over the world.

 

best...

Caldecott

todd

www.toddcaldecott.com

_____________________-

 

We genuinely appreciate Todd’s concern regarding

sporadic bad reputation of Ayurvedic toxicity in some

areas known to be heavily lobbied by pharmaceutical

economics. We are getting the matter of concern

appropriately ready to the notion of the Department of

Ayush, Govt. of India.

[Guest guest]

Dear Friend,

 

I really appreciate your concern and insight on

evidence based trials. I think it is not my intention

to advocate the necessity of Bhasma in the ayurvedic

practice. Rather I wish to convey that Bhasmas should

be considered as counter part of the conventional

chemo-therapeutic drugs which are not equally fully

safe for human use. But unfortunately people have to

depend on such medicines.

 

My point is to understand the practical difficulties

of “higher quality” clinical trials. The most glaring

difference between conventional and traditional

research is the lack of “chemistry” thinking in

Ayurveda. The net clinical effect on human (not

animal) body of each herb and other substances (such

as Bhasma) is sincerely studied and not individual

components. Often, though all ayurvedic parameters

(Prabhava, Guna, Veerya etc) are same, even herbs

differ in their actions, which ayurvedic practitioner

has to add to his book of wisdom. Combine this with

the effect as determined by the Kala (Calendar), Desha

(region) etc.

 

Do you think conventional researcher will be ready to

combine so many factors while designing higher quality

clinical trial? Perhaps this is not possible unless

you adopt an holistic research insight to design

clinical trial of so called ‘potentially toxic’

medicines. Again I propose that research should be

bilateral. There should be comparisons between

Ayurvedic Bhasmas & conventional chemo-therapeutic

medicines. The research team should include experts

from both the disciplines.

 

We have to accept our inabilities and also

irresponsibility. We are living in a new age which is

technologically advanced and very fast. We dream of

making human clones, having children of desired

characteristics (Stem cell research), in addition to

replacing body parts at will (e.g. Auto grafting and

Allo-grafting, etc). The conventional medical

knowledge aided by the technological innovations can

also boost of a deeper peep into human body and daily

adding antibiotics has tried to kill any types of

microorganisms that could be there. But what is the

net result?

 

Has human suffering from the modern ailments

lessened? Are not we confronting newer forms of

illnesses unknown in the past? Is the world not facing

a challenge from AIDS, cancer and epidemics of

communicable diseases? Is the number of patients

having Heart diseases, Hypertension, Diabetes along

with Depression not on the increase?

 

Should not we think about higher quality research on

short comings of the whole pharmaceutical industry?

Otherwise people will continue to suffer and the

healers will waste their healing power in vain. Since

you are an open minded ayurvedic practitioner you can

also transmit these concerns to media and Gov’t.

 

Ayurveda is a Shastra of healing & well being.

Ayurveda is not a science of numerous diseases and

newer clinical trials. The main problem with Ayurveda

is lack of research on the part of basic doctrine that

has to be promoted by every corner.

 

Regards,

Mukesh Jain, Bhilai

mjainbhilai

www.sanjivaniwellness.org/profile.htm

 

>

> In an earlier post you mentioned a clinical

> comparison between

> conventional and traditional medicine, and I think

> this is our best

> hope for any useful data on the benefits of

> traditional systems like

> Ayurveda and complimentary and alternative medicine

> (CAM).

[Guest guest]

A number of modern medicines are havig a lot of side

effects . Because of that doctors have not stopped

prescribing them.They are regularly prescribing them.

This does not mean they are bad doctors.

Patient should be cured of illness.

Experianced doctor will know to balance the bad

effects.

There are plant poisons also. croton, marking nut, so

many.

As per Paraceluses all medicine are poisionous but

the dosage is differant.

R.Vidhyasagar.

_____________

This time in my city. I hope news pieces like this

impress upon

those that would deny any risk with bhasmas to look

seriously at the

issue of proper toxicological trials.

[Guest guest]

Dear

Please ask the affected people whether they had made a responsible purchase? Was

the medicine procured from a vaidya, from a medical stores? Are the relevant

details like name of the medicine, the treating vaidya and the name of

manufacturing company (if applicable) is known? Or was the purchase just a curio

which boomranged?

We would be interested about these details before arriving at any conclusions.

 

Dr.D.B.Muzumdar

< dahpc >

< dbmuzumdar >

 

This time in my city. I hope news pieces like this impress upon

those that would deny any risk with bhasmas to look seriously at the

issue of proper toxicological trials. If properly prepared bhasmas

are demonstrated to be safe then it is easier to address issues such

as these. But until that happens, Ayurveda will continue to get a

bad reputation.

[Guest guest]

Dear

Bhasmas are a essential part of present Ayurvedic therapeutics, at least in

India. Ayurveda is not limited only to Charakaor Sushruta, but further went

ahead to enbrace the works like Yogratnakar, Bhavprakash and the other

contemporaries. So, it is not in good perspective to have improper opinion

about bhasmas.

Use of bhasmas should be done only by those who can diagnose and treat the

patients according to Ayurvedic norms and not just symptomatically.

There are thousands of people in India who are administered bhasmas as an

essential pert of Ayurvedic treatment. Some cases exhibiting toxicological

symptoms does not rule out the use of bhasmas. Such medical emergencies also

occur in modern medicine, but the world has not stopped using them or made

it as their last resot of medication before exhausting all other options.

I would like to repeat that qualified and responsible prescription of

bhasmas, prepared by reputed and responsible sources / companies is the best

method of using bhasmas without fear of complications.

For people in the preliminary stages or those who use Ayurveda for

house-hold or hobby treatments, bhasmas must be off-limits.

 

Dr.D.B.Muzumdar

M.D.Ayurveda-Medicine(Mumbai-India)

[Guest guest]

Hi Dr Muzumbar

 

 

> For people in the preliminary stages or those who use Ayurveda for

> house-hold or hobby treatments, bhasmas must be off-limits.

 

Part of the problem from the western perspective is that anyone can go

to India and get hold of bhasmas or other ayurvedic prescriptions which

seem to either not have been processed properly, given by the

appropriate profession or are inappropriate for the person concerned.

 

In New Zealand for example it is possible to purchase some Ayurvedic

formula's at the Indian supermarkets or through friends who bring them

back from India. Then when someone here, who purchases such formulae

ends up in hospital because of metal poisoning it ends up in all the

papers and local medical journals which results in Ayurveda getting a

bad name here, even through there are well trained Ayurvedic

practitioners who know better.

 

It would seem to me that India needs to do something about the

distribution of such formulea, especially when it is going to be

exported.

 

I do agree with that some good clinical trials on these products

would do much to satisfy the demands of the scientific minded community

in the world today. If in fact these products are toxic to the body

then they need to be labelled as such, and if ayurveda is going to take

the line that it is okay to give toxic metals to patients with certain

imbalances then there needs to be some research to back this up also if

we are going to be seen as reputable in today's world. If when they are

properly made they are not toxic then this would be great to know also.

 

While this practice might be acceptable in India today, the scientific

perspective that is growing in the rest of the world will also come to

challenge India some day. It would be wise to be prepared for this

before the event in my opinion.

 

Just because it has always been done, or indeed done for a long time

does not make anything right. The wise vidya will always question what

they do.

 

Namaste

John

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> Bhasmas are a essential part of present Ayurvedic therapeutics, at

> least in

> India. Ayurveda is not limited only to Charakaor Sushruta, but

> further went

> ahead to enbrace the works like Yogratnakar, Bhavprakash and the other

> contemporaries. So, it is not in good perspective to have improper

> opinion

> about bhasmas.

 

 

 

Dear Dr. Muzumdar,

 

I find it curious, in light of previous discussions we had about the

subject of diabetes, that in one context I am counseled to place the

words of acharya Charaka above all others, but in another context I

am to accept recent innovations as being authentic Ayurveda.

Regardless, my point remains that while we have good toxicological

data on medicinal herbs, there is nothing in the literature with

regard to heavy metal bhasmas. This seems to be a glaring omission

in Ayurvedic research, and I would think that especially supporters

of the use of bhasmas would be only too anxious to confirm that these

products do not promote heavy metal toxicity. However, there seems

to be a curious silence when it comes to this issue.

 

 

>

> There are thousands of people in India who are administered bhasmas

> as an

> essential pert of Ayurvedic treatment. Some cases exhibiting

> toxicological

> symptoms does not rule out the use of bhasmas. Such medical

> emergencies also

> occur in modern medicine, but the world has not stopped using them

> or made

> it as their last resot of medication before exhausting all other

> options.

 

I think that if a medicine promotes toxicity then indeed it should be

ruled out, and better, safer options should be investigated and

employed. Any attitude other than this surely isn't reflective of

Ayurvedic philosophy, which seeks to restore the healing power of

nature. Even if modern medicine has long abandoned the maxim of

Hippocrates, I can't see why we should not " at the least, do no

harm. " Ahimsaa paramo dharmaah.

 

>

> I would like to repeat that qualified and responsible prescription of

> bhasmas, prepared by reputed and responsible sources / companies is

> the best

> method of using bhasmas without fear of complications.

> For people in the preliminary stages or those who use Ayurveda for

> house-hold or hobby treatments, bhasmas must be off-limits.

 

It seems to me that there is no restriction on these products in the

marketplace, and further, that most people who take them don't even

know what's in them that could harm them. I realize that this

problem in India isn't limited to just Ayurvedic products, because

its easy enough to walk into almost any pharmacy to procure almost

any drug without a prescription. All Ayurvedic companies should

therefore take all heavy metal-containing bhasmas off the open market

until such time as their safety can be determined. If not, this

problem will continue to get worse, and there may be an eventual

backlash. Let what learned vaidyas prescribe in their own practice

be upon their own heads, but even still, ethics dictates that they

should fully disclose what is in the prescribed medicine and what the

risks are to the patient. And if they don't _really_ know what these

risks are, then they should reconsider using them.

 

In these two most recent case, the patients presented with nausea,

vomiting and abdominal pain. It took a sharp clinician to run the

tests for heavy metal toxicity. How many similar patients in India

would receive a diagnosis of chardi or shula, with no specific

treatment given for the cause of the issue? My basic thinking on

this is that an Ayurvedic physician should not prescribe something

they cannot properly measure or ascertain the impact of, especially

where the remedies are known toxins.

Caldecott

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Dr Muzumdar,

 

Such details are not available to me, as the Poison Control center

doesn't have access to the patient files. I took photos of the

products and will add them to the ayurveda_online files. One product

was obtained at a temple, perhaps dispensed by a resident vaidya.

One product is marked that it is made in Amritsar and the other I

would assume is also from a temple or Gurdwar in the Punjab. It is a

shame I can't get the name of the person who got the product from the

temple because no doubt it is also being dispensed to other people

even as we speak. Apparently, the fact that both products contained

heavy metals was a big shock to the patients in question, but then,

most people wouldn't have the knowledge to consider it a problem

until it shows up as one.

Caldecott

todd

www.toddcaldecott.com

 

> Please ask the affected people whether they had made a responsible

> purchase? Was the medicine procured from a vaidya, from a medical

> stores? Are the relevant details like name of the medicine, the

> treating vaidya and the name of manufacturing company (if

> applicable) is known? Or was the purchase just a curio which

> boomranged?

> We would be interested about these details before arriving at any

> conclusions.

[Guest guest]

Dear John

I think it is not the problem of Ayurveda or the system developed in Ayurveda

for the manufacturing Bhasma. I am using Naga bhasma [ Lead which is considered

poison] for many years with out any side effect or toxic effects.

Since last 5-7 years Western contries are showing more interest in alternative

therapies. Because Allopathic therapy is becoming costlier day by day. These

allopathic medicines are have dangerous side effects. Due to this change in

attitude of Western countries there are many blackships who wants to take

monetary advantage. They do not concerned about medicinal ethics.

So if some one wish to get a good treatment with out any side effects then he /

she should bear the cost of courier and get medicines through Vaidya practising

at India.

Vaidya Upadhye

http://www.astroayurvedalogy.com

http://www.astrotreat.blogspot.com

 

 

> For people in the preliminary stages or those who use Ayurveda for

> house-hold or hobby treatments, bhasmas must be off-limits.

 

Part of the problem from the western perspective is that anyone can go

to India and get hold of bhasmas or other ayurvedic prescriptions which

seem to either not have been processed properly, given by the

appropriate profession or are inappropriate for the person concerned.

 

In New Zealand for example it is possible to purchase some Ayurvedic

formula's at the Indian supermarkets or through friends who bring them

back from India. Then when someone here, who purchases such formulae

ends up in hospital because of metal poisoning it ends up in all the

papers and local medical journals which results in Ayurveda getting a

bad name here, even through there are well trained Ayurvedic

practitioners who know better.

 

It would seem to me that India needs to do something about the

distribution of such formulea, especially when it is going to be

exported.

[Guest guest]

Hi Vidya Upadhye

 

There are well qualified Vaidyas in New Zealand also, some of them

prescribe remedies which contain heavy metals while others do not

because of the current issues that we are seeing regarding metal

poisoning being report after tests have been conducted on people who

have taken such medication.

 

New Zealand has always had a history of herbal medicine, it is not

something new here and well recognised by many people, especially the

indigenous culture We also have a very large Chinese community and

herbs from china readily available through Chinese herbalists.. What is

new is that we are now getting the odd case reported and publicised of

people suffering metal toxicity from some ayurvedic remedies.

 

We are living at a time it seems where the pharmaceutical industry is

pushing governments around the world to force all " medicines " to have to

undergo the same strict trials that pharmaceutical medicines must go

through to prove that they are safe. For the most part this is quiet

ridicules for many reasons, which I will not go into here. However

when people are being diagnosed with heavy metal poisoning from

Ayurvedic remedies then this does not do our cause any good and

certainly we are being challenged by the allopathic medical community

and our clients because of this concern.

 

So to satisfy the governments, our clients and the other communities of

interest we need to prove to them that these medicines are safe to use

and in fact, are not toxic as you seem to suggest.

 

The problem as I see it is that there is not scientific proof or

research that the bhasma etc are indeed non-toxic as there seems an

unwillingness to actually do trials by the people who use them or by the

Ayurvedic community, which is unfortunate.

 

Simply saying you have seen no side effects in your many years of using

them does not really help much. Have you had the Naga Bhasma tested to

see if it contains any toxic substances? Have you had any of your

patience have a test to see if they have any metal toxicity?

It might well be that a patient can stand a certain amount of metal

toxicity without them showing any symptoms, or it could be that it does

not show up for years.

 

I do think it is an issue for us all that people are getting hold of

these medicines and the result is metal toxicity. The question is how

is it that there can be such medicines made in India which are causing

this and why are they freely available to anyone that wants to purchase

them? Do you not think that there might at least be some restrictions

on how these bhasmas etc can be purchased?

 

Namaste

John

______________________

Dear JohnI think it is not the problem of Ayurveda or the system

developed in Ayurveda for the manufacturing Bhasma. I am using Naga

bhasma [ Lead which is considered poison] for many years with out any

side effect or toxic effects.

[Guest guest]

Dear John

I would like to repeat that there is a fault in the present system of

manufacturing and quality control in India not in Ayurvedic methods of

preparations of Bhasma.

I am working as a Research Coordinator in a hospital and in well versed with

ICMR and GCP and GCM guide lines. It is mentioned in ICMR [ Indian Council of

Medical Research] guide lines regarding Ayurvedic medicines that for the

established medicines or the medicines written in the text of Ayurveda clinical

trial or drug toxicity report is not required for manufacturing licenses but for

any new combination of medicines of Ayurvedic drug, toxicity level and clinical

trial data is mandatory before manufacturing the same.

So it has been granted by government of Indian that the old established

Ayurvedic medicines are safe. The blaksheeps of which I have mentioned in

previous mail are taking disadvantage of this ICMR guide lines for there own

benefit.

The yardstick which is in use for allopathic medicines is not applicable for

Ayurveda. This will be another topic of discussion.

It is my opinion that separate yardstick should be developed for the quality

control of Ayurvedic medicines and you will not have any toxicity of Bhasma.

Vaidya Upadhye

http://www.astroayurvedalogy.com

http://www.astrotreat.blogspot.com

-

There are well qualified Vaidyas in New Zealand also, some of them

prescribe remedies which contain heavy metals while others do not

because of the current issues that we are seeing regarding metal

poisoning being report after tests have been conducted on people who

have taken such medication.

[Guest guest]

Of course the Traditional siddha doctors follow old

methods of treatments . I am one amoung them.

it is the choice of the patient either to die of

medicine, or to die of disease.

Not only the medicine is poisonous, but the everyday

food is more poisonous with a lot of agricultural

pesticide residues.

 

so many heart patients are operated everyday

I have no data of the percentage of success and

failure.

The doctors intention is to save the patient, but many

times he fails.

Many times patients are under risks in treatment

whatever the system of medicine it has its own risks

it seems it is safer to consume heavy metals .

some scientific person can come and do a study

of heavymetal tolerance of Indian patients.

I will appreciate such works.

R.vdhyasagar.

_______________________

I would like to repeat that there is a fault in the

present system of manufacturing and quality control

in India not in Ayurvedic methods of preparations of

Bhasma.

[Guest guest]

yes, this was my suspicion. So we can not blame bhasma, but the way people are

make bhasma.

So then how do you advise people to buy bhasmas though?

The consumer has no way of knowing whether the bhasma they are taking is toxic

or not and has no clue if they can trust any brand.

_____________________________

I would like to repeat that there is a fault in the present system of

manufacturing and quality control in India not in Ayurvedic methods of

preparations of Bhasma.

[Guest guest]

for the life of me, i cannot understand how can a subject like this

be reduced to speculation, suspicion and inference

toxicity is toxicity: it is entirely unnecessary to have a separate

yard stick to measure this

 

i suggest using a model to study bhasmas similar to the one used by

Thorat and Dahanakur, below:

 

> 1: J Postgrad Med. 1991 Jul;37(3):157-9.

> Can we dispense with Ayurvedic samskaras?

> Thorat S, Dahanukar S.

>

> Department of Pharmacology, Seth G. S. Medical College, Bombay,

> Maharashtra.

>

> Crude aconite is an extremely lethal substance. However, the

> science of Ayurveda looks upon aconite as a therapeutic entity.

> Crude aconite is always processed i.e. it undergoes 'samskaras'

> before being utilised in the Ayurvedic formulations. This study was

> undertaken in mice, to ascertain whether 'processed' aconite is

> less toxic as compared to the crude or unprocessed one. It was seen

> that crude aconite was significantly toxic to mice (100% mortality

> at a dose of 2.6 mg/mouse) whereas the fully processed aconite was

> absolutely non-toxic (no mortality at a dose even 8 times as high

> as that of crude aconite). Further, all the steps in the processing

> were essential for complete detoxification.

 

 

such a simple study would go a long way to alleviating concerns over

bhasmas; if animal cruelty is the concern, then let true-believers

volunteer and sign a disclaimer

 

in the meantime, stating that all cases of bhasma-poisoning relate to

improperly prepared products is simply an uninformed, speculative

opinion

Caldecott

todd

www.toddcaldecott.com

[Guest guest]

I agree, and also wonder why or how a study of bhasmas hasn't been

done already? especially with the jama article a few years ago. it

seems like a lot of people as well misunderstand the want for this

testing, such as an article by Dr. Partap Chauhan i read a while back

in regards to toxicity. he basically just went in to the ideas of what

a bhasma IS rather than stating whether or not scientific scrutiny

would show that the toxic elements where no longer there or active in

the medicine, or even an explanation for the way in which the

alchemical process has changed the potentially toxic element enough

thtat even with it present it no longer is dangerous. the conversation

seems to always come back to blind faith that the bhasmas are

safe...just because. I'm not sure if it is just reluctance on the part

of vaidyas to allow this sort of testing to occur for fear of the

possibility that they may not in fact be safe? I just can't imagine

though that no one understands the concern involved in taking and

perscribing bhasmas. Just for the record as well, I would love to know

that they are safe and based on my time spent with an extremely

experienced vaidya who's opinion i highly regard and who does use

bhasmas i am hoping that this is the case, but it is certainly

something that can not go ignored or pushed under the rug.

 

 

_____________________________-

for the life of me, i cannot understand how can a subject like this

be reduced to speculation, suspicion and inference

toxicity is toxicity: it is entirely unnecessary to have a separate

yard stick to measure this

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr Todd

With all respect to your knowledge I think you have faith on Western science

more than Indian Science. Hence you are speculating toxicity or assuming

toxicity of the bhasma because they are metals. The chemistry used by ancient

Indians was very different then what we know at present. The example you have

given of Aconite toxicity is really eye opener for Western science. Let them

learn chemistry of ancient India.

Vaidya Upadhye

..

 

 

 

Caldecott <todd

ayurveda

Wednesday, 9 April, 2008 8:05:10 PM

Re: <ayurveda> heavy metals again...

 

for the life of me, i cannot understand how can a subject like this

be reduced to speculation, suspicion and inference

toxicity is toxicity: it is entirely unnecessary to have a separate

yard stick to measure this

 

i suggest using a model to study bhasmas similar to the one used by

Thorat and Dahanakur, below:

 

> 1: J Postgrad Med. 1991 Jul;37(3):157- 9.

> Can we dispense with Ayurvedic samskaras?

> Thorat S, Dahanukar S.

>

> Department of Pharmacology, Seth G. S. Medical College, Bombay,

> Maharashtra.

>

> Crude aconite is an extremely lethal substance. However, the

> science of Ayurveda looks upon aconite as a therapeutic entity.

> Crude aconite is always processed i.e. it undergoes 'samskaras'

> before being utilised in the Ayurvedic formulations. This study was

> undertaken in mice, to ascertain whether 'processed' aconite is

> less toxic as compared to the crude or unprocessed one. It was seen

> that crude aconite was significantly toxic to mice (100% mortality

> at a dose of 2.6 mg/mouse) whereas the fully processed aconite was

> absolutely non-toxic (no mortality at a dose even 8 times as high

> as that of crude aconite). Further, all the steps in the processing

> were essential for complete detoxification.

 

such a simple study would go a long way to alleviating concerns over

bhasmas; if animal cruelty is the concern, then let true-believers

volunteer and sign a disclaimer

 

in the meantime, stating that all cases of bhasma-poisoning relate to

improperly prepared products is simply an uninformed, speculative

opinion

Caldecott

todd (AT) toddcaldecott (DOT) com

www.toddcaldecott. com

 

 

 

 

Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on

http://help./l/in//mail/mail/tools/tools-08.html/

 

 

[Guest guest]

It is better to get medicines from treating vaidya instead of purchasing them

from store.

I know It is not possible to manufacture Bhasma for every individually. In Pune

there is a group of Vaidya they are preparing medicines and Bhasma under there

supervision for there use only.

This way they are acquiring good medicines and fast results.

You can always find a way if you have will.

Vaidya Upadhye

 

 

 

mandv m <mandakiniven

ayurveda

Tuesday, 8 April, 2008 10:53:28 PM

Re: <ayurveda> Re: heavy metals again...

 

yes, this was my suspicion. So we can not blame bhasma, but the way people are

make bhasma.

So then how do you advise people to buy bhasmas though?

The consumer has no way of knowing whether the bhasma they are taking is toxic

or not and has no clue if they can trust any brand.

____________ _________ ________

I would like to repeat that there is a fault in the present system of

manufacturing and quality control in India not in Ayurvedic methods of

preparations of Bhasma.

 

 

 

 

Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, without download.

Go to http://in.messenger./webmessengerpromo.php/

 

 

[Guest guest]

> It is better to get medicines from treating vaidya instead of

purchasing them from store.

 

The memories of a sad incidence got refreshed with above statement. A

distant relative of this author, who had a heart attack five years

ago, called and described the distress. By his luck, another patient

in the same building was given a tablet equivalent to ayurvedic

sorbitrate. He obtained it from this patient and got quick relief,

had a good sleep for three hours. Chest pain started again, but no

more tablets since the other patient had only one in stock. So the

family member rushed to the nearby ayurvedic shop. The shop had the

same tablet but manufactured by less reputed and recently started

pharmacy. The tablet was purchased out of panic and was given to the

patient. he breathed last in an hour. The distance and time did not

permit getting genuine medicine from vaidya.

 

 

 

 

> I know It is not possible to manufacture Bhasma for every

individually. In Pune there is a group of Vaidya they are preparing

medicines and Bhasma under there supervision for there use only.

> This way they are acquiring good medicines and fast results.

 

Similar society of vaidyas exists in Tamilnadu, IMPCOPS, they are

located in Adyar, a suburb of Chennai. Chennai patients can buy

medicines from IMPCOPS. Medicines are made to good standards and give

results.

[Guest guest]

Dear Vd Upadhye,

 

I have been debating the issue of bhasmas with colleagues and other

professionals for 15 years now. In the beginning I had a great deal

of faith that bhasmas were safe, simply because I was a true

believer, and defended them vigorously against the skeptics. The

deeper I have investigated the historical use of bhasmas however the

more doubts have appeared. As I have shared on this list, it does

not appear that rasa shastra is all that ancient and nor is it a part

of the original Ayurveda. Nobody should thus be made to accept the

idea that rasa shatra is an integral part of Ayurveda. That aside, I

would never have any _public_ concern for the use of bhasmas if it

wasn't for the fact that heavy metal toxicity from taking them is a

chronic problem that is consistently reported in the literature (note

that this is not happening with purified Aconite). Some vaidyas say

they have never seen cases of poisoning from using bhasmas (how do

they know, really?). They say that these cases are related to

improperly manufactured products (how do they know, really?). All

contentions cannot be proved either way until the proper trials are

done. I understand the fear behind the objections to this, but

proper medical ethics dictates that bhasmas should be investigated.

The question of my faith is irrelevant when it comes to the safety of

patients and the integrity of Ayurveda.

Caldecott

todd

www.toddcaldecott.com

[Guest guest]

Dear Todd and all really woried about heavy metal bhasmas and their toxicity,

I had already mentioned about the irresponsible usage of bhasmas by unqualified

people in earlier mails.

Still some points that need further detailing are mentioned as under -

1) None of the Ayurvedic doctors are afraid to get the bhasmas tested and

trialed. The problem is with the patient's end. Higher costs will, in the end,

have to be borne by the patients which the doctors don't want happen and

subsequently burden the patients.

2) The governmental approval agencies and manufacturers of bulk medicines

(bhasmas) should work on this issue, and not the individual practitioners.

3) When I said that I have not come across bhasma toxic effects, I can say that

with confidence because I am having families together in my practice for more

than 15 years. They have been consistently in touch with me for their various

chronic as well as day-to-day and seasonal health problems. They even refer

their acquaintances to me for treatment. Can this be just faith on me or

Ayurveda? Definitely not. They have experienced a lot of Ayurvedic treatments

over the past 15 years and have not encountered any untoward effect. And that is

my strong reason to vouch for the safety of the bhasmas I use. That's is how I

know,really; because my patients are in good health. I would also like to

mention that when all the metabolic factors are working normally, the agni /

digestive power is normal, the heart-kidney-liver-nerves-brain is working

properly; what more evidence does one need to prove that the bhasmas are not

causing any toxic effects? Does one need a stomach endoscope daily to prove that

his food is being digested? No, one can understand it by the body signs and

symptoms.That is how I really know.

4) And I will repeat again, that at least in India, Rasa-shastra is considered

as an integral part of Ayurveda and has been endorsed by all Ayurvedic

educational universites, and government boards. AND to be effective, it is not

necessary that it should be necessarily ancient. All sorts of people can have

all sorts of opinions, but they are not always endorsable.

Anybody interested can definitely go ahead and do whatever trials on needs to

satisfy himself about the non-toxicity of properly prepared (shastrokta vidhi)

bhasmas and I can vouch that no responsible Indian Ayurvedic practitioner is

going to have any kind of inhibitions for it. It is not the matter of blind

faith or fear, but it a matter of daily experience for us in India.

Western / Modern medicine systems of drug trials are not totally comprehensive

either. Otherwise, why would have a Thalidomide disaster ever occured or why the

'Coxib' group of drugs come under fire, if the medicines are hailed to be

panaceas after ?properly conducted trials by established means and methods?

Is anybody interested in doing more than just discussing and opining?

 

Dr.D.B.Muzumdar

M.D.Ayurveda-Medicine(Mumbai-India)

[Guest guest]

> 1) None of the Ayurvedic doctors are afraid to get the bhasmas

> tested and trialed. The problem is with the patient's end. Higher

> costs will, in the end, have to be borne by the patients which the

> doctors don't want happen and subsequently burden the patients.

 

A clinical trial does not need to come at the expense of the patient

or medicine. Have toxicological trials on herbs increased their

cost? No. These studies can easily be undertaken by government-

funded research facilities, but while trials exist for herbs none

have been performed for bhasmas, which is really quite curious.

 

 

>

> 2) The governmental approval agencies and manufacturers of bulk

> medicines (bhasmas) should work on this issue, and not the

> individual practitioners.

 

That has been my suggestion all along, but failing that, is it wise

to continue to use heavy metal bhasmas without _knowing_ if you are

poisoning your patients?

 

>

> 3) When I said that I have not come across bhasma toxic effects, I

> can say that with confidence because I am having families together

> in my practice for more than 15 years.

 

Unfortunately 15 years of anecdotal evidence is probably not be

sufficient to pick up on issues of chronic toxicity.

 

 

> Does one need a stomach endoscope daily to prove that his food is

> being digested?

 

Irrelevant. Food is not a heavy metal.

 

 

> No, one can understand it by the body signs and symptoms.That is

> how I really know.

 

No, this is inference. You don't really know, and as per trividha

pariksha your testimony remains unreliable. Not wrong per se, just

not reliable.

 

>

> Is anybody interested in doing more than just discussing and opining?

 

That's what I am asking, but so far all I am getting is opinion - not

actual evidence. The evidence in the literature suggests that heavy

metal toxicity DOES occur with certain bhasmas, but instead of

investigating this all I am hearing is denials and excuses. They may

be safe, they may not be. Can you not contemplate any other human

action that has found to be dangerous or ineffective despite a long

history of use?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Todd

I accept that for the safety of man kind toxicity of bhasma of metals should be

done. There are too many issues are involved in it. Funding for such project at

goverment level is must. There must be defined standered procedures of

manufacturing of each bhasma. There are biological products in the form of

bhavana dravya. To track the effect of bhavana dravya is very difficult. I think

there is no harm is doing research in toxicity of bhasma provided the bhasma

should be manufactured as per the guide line given in the text of Ayurveda.

Vaidya Upadhye

http://www.astroayurvedalogy.com

http://www.astrotreat.blogspot.com

[Guest guest]

excellent! i am glad you are of like mind

if bhasmas can be validated as safe, it makes our job of supporting

this practice much easier

and if they are toxic, then at the very least, there should be

mandatory informed consent and prominent warnings

 

btw, i am very happy that canada has essentially banned bisphenol A

we should all work together to make this world less toxic, and this

should include our medicine

 

best... todd