blood tests for ruling out toxicity from bhasmas?

[Guest guest]

dear dr muzumdar

 

with all due respect, how do you know they don't produce a toxic

effect? subacute and/or chronic heavy metal toxicity may be difficult

to detect - it would be very easy to confuse these symptoms for other

diseases, years after administration.

 

do you routinely conduct blood tests on patients to rule out

toxicity? what external evidences including toxicological trials do

you reference to support the use of bhasmas?

 

todd caldecott

__________________

> If prepared according to shastra, the bhasmas do not exhibit toxic

> effects.

[Guest guest]

hey todd

 

i would like to point out that there are chemistry

professors in the department where i live who are being ruthlessly neglected

with funding because of this heavy toxic metal propaganda being thrown by

pharmaceutical companies that have huge amounts of cash to scare even the

most authoritative western pedagogical scientists.

 

this is including the

american chemical association which i was a part of back in my teens as a

research scientist assistant. let me translate this scientific language for

you in other words, scientists wish to prove that these very metals that

are present in bhasmas are not toxic as they are also readily found in the

biochemical processes that occur not only in the brain but in the blood

system of our own body. please do some research and you will see these

chemical equations of metals in the body. they are standard knowledge.

 

if you would like to speak to these neglected and violated scientists it may be

useful to take a trip to local prestigious university and take a

tour with a chemistry professor who deals with " inorganic chemistry " which

is the chemisty of non carbon molecules.

 

tell me please, is it politics you seek to play with or the truth??? whose side

are you on my friend of ayurveda???

 

namaskar,

 

__________

 

Raja Gursahani

(: 559.474.8576

,: rajagursahani

[Guest guest]

Raja Gursahani

Namaskar!

 

 

> let me translate this scientific language for

> you in other words, scientists wish to prove that these very metals

> that

> are present in bhasmas are not toxic as they are also readily found

> in the

> biochemical processes that occur not only in the brain but in the

> blood

> system of our own body. please do some research and you will see these

> chemical equations of metals in the body. they are standard knowledge.

 

If you seek to make your knowledge accessible how about simply

providing the details? Otherwise it just sounds rather empty. I

have done lots of research into minerals and there are NO known human

physiological processes that _require_ heavy metals including lead,

mercury, cadmium etc - certainly they may be present in the body in

very tiny amounts, but that is because they also occur naturally or

more frequently because of contamination.

 

>

>

> tell me please, is it politics you seek to play with or the

> truth??? whose side are you on my friend of ayurveda???

>

 

The point i have made all along is that the evidence suggests that

rasa shatra was incorporated into Ayurveda at a relatively late date

in history, and that the current emphasis upon and use of bhasmas in

modern-day Ayurveda does not reflect the practices of Charaka or his

forebears. So I am not debating the merits or demerits of Ayurveda

at all. However, if you can argue this point, and also provide

sufficient toxicological data to prove that bhasmas containing heavy

metals are safe for chronic administration, then I will be satisfied.

 

Currently, there is more toxicological data on herbs such as Amalaki

and Haridra, even though these are very safe with a long history of

use as a medicine and food. So, why is there no data available on

the heavy metal bhasmas, especially in light of what we know about

their deleterious effects? Is there some kind of lobby that is

preventing this?

 

There are several herbs that I use that have toxic properties, or

have been shown to be toxic. As a result, I have to admit their

toxicity and modify my use. As a practitioner this is an important

ethical consideration. Case in point is Comfrey (Symphytum

officinalie), one of the best herbs I know to promote tissue

healing. Most herbalists would never have thought this herb to be

toxic 100 years ago, but recent evidence suggests that toxic

pyrrolizidine alkaloids (PA) in Comfrey cause liver damage. Of

course there is still some debate around this issue, but as a result,

I am careful in my administration and always tell patients of the

risk, something called " informed consent " . My other options are not

to use it, or find PA-free versions of it.

 

Please realize that your concerns as a general advocate of Ayurveda

aren't the same as practitioner who is ethically and legally

responsible for the products they recommend. I hope this clears up

any further misunderstanding of my intent. The politics is already

there, and in the West at least, to continue advocating or defending

the use of toxic metals without any safety data is just BAD politics.

 

best wishes.... todd caldecott

[Guest guest]

dear Dr Muzumdar

 

I appreciate that your argument is on based on GMPs (or maybe in this

case we should say TMPs - or " Traditional Manufacturing Practices " ),

but it nonetheless avoids the sticky issue that there are no

toxicological trials on these medications, even those that have been

prepared according to these GMP/TMPs. I mentioned the issue with

Comfrey (Symphytum officinalis) in an earlier post. Most herbalists

would have thought this herb 100% safe, and yet recent evidence

suggests that the particular pyrrolizidine alkaloids in it cause

damage in the liver on par with ionizing radiation, and that this

effect may only be felt decades later. While it was very hard to

hear, and I do have my thoughts about it, ultimately it is a piece of

data I can't simply ignore and as a result have modified my use of

this herb.

 

I never asked that physicians conduct routine blood tests on all

patients taking bhasmas, although by the standards of medical ethics

this would be required. I am asking why are there no comprehensive

toxicological trials on a population taking these products, given

what we know about the inherent toxicity of heavy metals. If you are

very confident that they are non-toxic I cannot see why you wouldn't

support such trials, to demonstrate that concern is unwarranted.

Caldecott

todd

www.toddcaldecott.com

 

_______________________________

> I repeat that it is irresponsible prescribing and sub-standard

> manufacturing that can cause episodes of toxic reactions. I get my

> medicines prepared according to stringent Ayurvedic standards and

> prescribe them strictly according to indications only, not just

> because I want to make some opportunistic business.

[Guest guest]

The pharmacovigilance debate initiated by Todd should

be welcomed by members. The increasing use of

Ayurvedic products in the developed countries has led

to increasing concern regarding their quality,

efficacy and safety. The challenges relate to the

patient, physician, regulatory authorities, the

abuse/misuse of these medicines, quality and purity

issues. Safety monitoring is mandated by a changing

ecological environment, the use of insecticides, new

manufacturing techniques, and the need to look at the

active principles of these medicines as potential

chemotherapeutic agents.

 

In India we prefer the name “Bhasma” because they are

burnt heavy metals carrying only the healing power.

They are not heavy rather very light, healing micro

powder that is able to work at cellular level. When

metals are processed with fresh biological media (of

herbal juices) and subjected to heat at extremely high

temperatures. Thus Bhasmas are bound to change

completely. The Bhasma becomes very potent, and should

be taken only under the guidance of a knowledgeable

physician.

 

The conflict between the traditional ayurvedic

practitioners and the purists demanding evidence of

safety and efficacy needs to be addressed. Ayurvedic

Bhasma Safety evaluation is the determination of

safety for its human use to combat serious health

problems. There is an urgent need for the

practitioners of the allopathic and non-allopathic

systems to work together to optimize the risk-benefit

profile of these medicines. This is very essential to

demonstrate the superiority of Ayurvedic Bhasma over

modern chemical drugs. At the same time we have to

characterize the potential toxic effects of Bhasma if

any and have to determine the safe dosage levels in

humans. There should be a joint commission of US FDA

and overseas drug regulatory authorities to conduct

clinical trials on ayurvedic Bhasma and not on heavy

metals. Since we are concerning human safety, there

should be not only comparative study with placebo but

the trial should include comparisons of safety between

Bhasmas & modern chemo-therapeutics also.

[Guest guest]

well said mukesh and to encourage solidarity among differing opinions

I encourage your plan however integrity of this type of inquiry must

be absolutely maintained.

 

_____________________________

Raja Gursahani

Cell 559.474.8576

Sent from my iPhone

[Guest guest]

I do think it could be useful to check for blood toxicity for those using bhasma

to form a strong case for them.

But I think before that, it should be ensured that the bhasma are made in a

way that will render them toxin free.