uttarayana

[Guest guest]

> If one opens it, he sees that change from Dakshinayana to Uttarayana

> is always around Dec. 21, not Makar Sankranthi. Same day sun enters

> Sayana Capricorn sign. (e.g. in 2004, Uttarayana started on Dec 21,

> at 18:13 IST or 12:43 GMT) Uttarayan does not depend on place on the

> planet, while length of day will depend. Sour Shishir Rutu starts on

> the same instant. Thus uttarayana/Daskhinayana are being defined by

> solstices while, Sun enters Nirayana Capricorn sign on Jan 14/15

> which correctly defines Makar sankranthi.

 

thanks for the clarification Shirish - this is all i wanted to be

sure of

still, it seems odd that this misconception exists at all...

 

incidentally, one advantage of the tropical system is that it is

completely tied to the natural cycles of the earth, rather than the

often confusing celestial cycles, and as such, Makar Sankranti (the

entry of the sun in Capricorn) in the tropical system begins on the

winter solstice, Dec 21...

 

probably this idea of Makar Sankranti initiating uttarayana should be

cleared up, since many people, even astrologers, persist in mixing

them up

 

one thing to note is that every year Makar Sankranti will get later

and later, very gradually, so that in 500 years it will be in late

winter, just as the vernal equinox, which is supposed to denote the

beginning of the zodiac and the sun in Mesha/Aries, is now in Meena/

Pisces, and is gradually moving to Khumba/Aquarius

 

as far as where my research has taken me, the very earliest

astronomical text of ancient India is the Vedanga Jyotish by Lagadha

(c. 14th cent BCE), which provides a method for calculating the

months, the two ayanas (solstices) and the two sampats (equinoxes),

as well as the nakshatras and tithis

 

according to the Vedanga Jyotish, all of these calculations are

essential to performing the yagnyas at the proper times, but makes no

mention of the rashis (signs of the zodiac), nor suggests that these

calculations function as a predictive tool

 

please correct me if i am wrong, but the rashis first make their

appearance in the Surya Siddhanta, which is traditionally stated to

have originated with Maya the Asura, who from the descriptions in the

Ramayana, was non-Indian/mleccha (possibly Mayan?); there are also

other evidences that the later predictive " vedic " astrology has its

origins in Hellenistic (Greek) astrology, since prior to the Greek

influence in India, there was no convention of the using the rashis

 

as a result, I have met some fierce Indian nationalists that reject

the Surya Siddhanta and predictive " vedic " astrology as being

adharmic, stating that people are currently celebrating the major

festivals on the wrong days, late by about 3 weeks or so - they call

for a return to the Lagadha's Vedanga Jyotish, which is intimately

connected to the seasons

 

best wishes and a happy new year

Caldecott, Dip. Cl.H, RH(AHG)

Ayurvedic practitioner, Medical Herbalist

203 - 1750 East 10th Ave

Vancouver, BC V5N 5K4 CANADA

web: http//:www.toddcaldecott.com

email: todd

tel: (1)778.896.8894

fax: (1)866.703.2792

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr Todd

You are absolutly right about Nakshatra Jyotish. Rashi are included at later

period in Vedic Astrology. Though I have not given more time to study maths in

Astrology. What I know is that Sayana, Nirayan, K.P. ayana ansha are all basis

of Nakshatra. Even predictions in relation with Nakshatra are near to more

perfection.

Vaidya Upadhye

 

 

 

please correct me if i am wrong, but the rashis first make their

appearance in the Surya Siddhanta, which is traditionally stated to

have originated with Maya the Asura, who from the descriptions in the

Ramayana, was non-Indian/mleccha (possibly Mayan?); there are also

other evidences that the later predictive " vedic " astrology has its

origins in Hellenistic (Greek) astrology, since prior to the Greek

influence in India, there was no convention of the using the rashis

[Guest guest]

Dear all,

 

As far as I am concerned, the term of " vedic " astrology to describe jyotish has

known a relatively recent development, and notably in the US with the growing

number of american jyotishi. But it is recent and maybe not fully appropriate :

Bangalore Ventaka Raman, who is considered to be the most famous astrologer of

the last century only refered to " hindu " astrology for instance. Actually there

is a certain number of techniques in the astrology practiced in India who does

not seem to come from vedic times, like the tajika system or hellenistic terms

describing rashis like kendra, apoklima, etc.

But there is a part of the material used by the astrologers who is definitely

" vedic " and I think we should focus on these techniques to build a consistent

" ayurvedic astrology " : these are mainly the nature of the grahas in relation

with the doshas, the gunas, and the nakshatras who are mentioned in the

Mahâbhârata. But obviously we should not ignore rashis, as they are related to

the rising of diseases, as it is brilliantly described in the Prashna Marga, an

encyclopedic work from the Kerala.

 

Best regards

Thierry Chevallier

__________

 

You are absolutly right about Nakshatra Jyotish. Rashi are included at later

period in Vedic Astrology.

[Guest guest]

hi Thierry

 

As far as I know, there is no mention of the importance of the grahas

in the Vedic texts, nor any reference that they were in any sense

gods and need to be placated with remedial measures, such as mantras

and gems, as " vedic " astrology encourages. I also note that there

is no reference to the use of nakshatras for predictive purposes

either - rather, it appears that they were used to mark the passage

of time, and for Hindus, to determine the proper time to conduct the

yagnas, as well as for more mundane purposes such as farming. And

perhaps most important of all, there is no reference to the necessity

nor importance of astrology in Ayurveda, at least with regard to the

classical works, written by Charaka, Sushruta and Vagbhata. It seems

to be a matter of course that people are told of the inextricable

link between Ayurveda and jyotish, but there is no evidence to

support this. This is what I have concluded based on my own studies,

but they are not exhaustive and would be pleased to hear of any

evidence to the contrary.

 

While jyotisha gets a great deal of prominence, we must remember

that so many of India's great mahatmas have also told us to avoid

superstitious practices, and many, from Lord Krishna and Lord Buddha

to Vivekananda, called upon us to rouse our spirit and courageously

meet our challenges without aids such as astrology. The Vedas

teaches us that it is our thoughts, words and actions that determine

the future, not the stars and planets. We always have a choice. We

are self-become.

 

best wishes...

Caldecott, Dip. Cl.H, RH(AHG)

Ayurvedic practitioner, Medical Herbalist

203 - 1750 East 10th Ave

Vancouver, BC V5N 5K4 CANADA

web: http//:www.toddcaldecott.com

email: todd

tel: (1)778.896.8894

fax: (1)866.703.2792

___

 

As far as I am concerned, the term of " vedic " astrology to describe

jyotish has known a relatively recent development, and notably in

the US with the growing number of american jyotishi. But it is

recent and maybe not fully appropriate

[Guest guest]

Dear Todd

If we do not apply our intelligence beyond what has been said in past sciences

then how one can progress. I think every topic should be judged on the basis of

principals accepted by Vedic Jyotish and Ayurveda.

The five principal theory is accepted by both sciences but due to different

motives we have seen growth of two different sciences. Ayurveda deals only with

ailments where as part of the Vedic Astrology deals with diseases. Then what is

wrong in using Vedic Astrology as a tool for the purpose of diagnosis and

treatment as far as there is no harm or obliteration of principals accepted by

both sciences.

Vaidya Upadhye

http://www.astroayurvedalogy.com

http://www.astrotreat.blogspot.com

 

 

__________

 

As far as I know, there is no mention of the importance of the grahas

in the Vedic texts, nor any reference that they were in any sense

gods and need to be placated with remedial measures, such as mantras

and gems, as " vedic " astrology encourages.

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

Your post also made me think of Vaastu architecture? Is it based on

astrology?

 

Blissfully,

Patti

 

Patti Garland

Ayurvedic Chef and LifeStyle Coach

Bliss Kitchen

http://www.BlissKitchen.com

(760) 902-7020

[Guest guest]

hi

 

*** there is no reference to the necessity nor importance of astrology in

Ayurveda, at least with regard to the classical works, written by Charaka,

Sushruta and Vagbhata

 

Yes it is true, but there is no reference to the necessity of learning ayurveda,

niti shastra, kama shastra, etc in the classical works of Jyotisha neither. But

do you think it is because it is not written that it is not necessary? One thing

one should bear in mind while studying the shastras is that they are a written

transcription of a tradition that was meant to be transmitted orally only, at

least for centuries, through memorization, recitation and discussion. This oral

transmission of the sacred knowledge is common to many civilizations, and was

definitely intentional (see the emphasis of Socrates on oral communication in

Plato's Phaedrus). Then one can understand that the main purpose of the sanskrit

canons is to be easily memorized, i.e. harmonious, prosodic and, paramount

necessity, concise (see the number of occurrences of " etc " in these works). As

any student of the traditional knowledge of India was supposed to be well-versed

in each and every shastra, there was obviously no need to recall the aphorims of

Ayurveda in an astrological work, nor the Jyotisha principles in an Ayurvedic

canon. I think one can considerably broaden his horizons while learning at the

same time jyotisha along with ayurveda and other shastras. This is my own

experience: having some basic knowledge in ayurveda helps an astrologer to

understand many aphorisms that otherwise would remain unclear, and in the same

way I think knowing the basic properties of the grahas or the panchanga limbs

may help an ayurvedic practitioner to chose the appropriate timing for a

treatment.

 

*** there is no reference to the use of nakshatras for predictive purposes

either - rather, it appears that they were used to mark the passage

of time, and for Hindus, to determine the proper time to conduct the yagnas, as

well as for more mundane purposes such as farming.

 

Astrology is nowadays mainly assimilated to the study of one's birth data, but

this form of astrology (Jataka) is relatively recent and is probably the latest.

Originally, astrological practices were indeed mainly used to ascertain the most

auspicious moments for mundane or religious purposes (Muhurta) or to answer

questions (Prashna). These forms of astrology come along with their own rules

and techniques which are far from being simple, but seem to date back from very

old times, given the importance of nakshatras and their number (28 instead of

27)...

 

*** we must remember that so many of India's great mahatmas have also told us to

avoid superstitious practices

 

Superstition comes from a wrong conception arising from an incomplete knowledge

or biased transmission of some original truth. But should we get rid of the

original truth along with the superstitious practices ?

However, it is true that astrology being most of the time (and sadly) a

business, without any code of conduct like the hippocratic oath, a lot of

astrologers will keep on raising the spectre of some fearful (and supersitious!)

curses like Sade Sati or Kuja Dosha to make their customers buy their remedial

measures, gems, or other worthless things. I would never advise an easily

influencable person to go and consult a professional astrologer, as he is

susceptible of making money upon his or her credulity. But I can assure that

astrology can be a real help in one's life, and particularly for the health

matters.

 

Best regards

Thierry

[Guest guest]

> hi

>

> *** there is no reference to the necessity nor importance of

> astrology in Ayurveda, at least with regard to the classical works,

> written by Charaka, Sushruta and Vagbhata

>

> Yes it is true, but there is no reference to the necessity of

> learning ayurveda, niti shastra, kama shastra, etc in the classical

> works of Jyotisha neither. But do you think it is because it is not

> written that it is not necessary? One thing one should bear in mind

> while studying the shastras is that they are a written

> transcription of a tradition that was meant to be transmitted

> orally only, at least for centuries, through memorization,

> recitation and discussion. This oral transmission of the sacred

> knowledge is common to many civilizations, and was definitely

> intentional (see the emphasis of Socrates on oral communication in

> Plato's Phaedrus). Then one can understand that the main purpose of

> the sanskrit canons is to be easily memorized, i.e. harmonious,

> prosodic and, paramount necessity, concise (see the number of

> occurrences of " etc " in these works). As any student of the

> traditional knowledge of India was supposed to be well-versed in

> each and every shastra, there was obviously no need to recall the

> aphorims of Ayurveda in an astrological work, nor the Jyotisha

> principles in an Ayurvedic canon. I think one can considerably

> broaden his horizons while learning at the same time jyotisha along

> with ayurveda and other shastras. This is my own experience: having

> some basic knowledge in ayurveda helps an astrologer to understand

> many aphorisms that otherwise would remain unclear, and in the same

> way I think knowing the basic properties of the grahas or the

> panchanga limbs may help an ayurvedic practitioner to chose the

> appropriate timing for a treatment.

 

Hi Thierry,

 

Just because Jyotisha mentions nothing of Ayurveda, does not

therefore mean that Ayurveda supports the use of Jyotisha in

diagnosis and treatment. Really, all you have done is make a

comparison. Ayurveda also mentions nothing about accounting or

scheduling, and yet most Ayurvedic practitioners will have to figure

this out too. Disciplines can be combined, but their usefulness also

needs to be clearly demarcated. My point has been that some

Ayurvedic practitioners will state that successful diagnosis and

treatment in Ayurveda depends on astrological forecasts. There is

nothing mentioned of this in the extant texts, and I think you also

agreed with me that the practice of predictive astrology is non-

Indian in origin and thus decidedly non-Vedic. As such your final

point about India's remarkable mnemonic/oral tradition is irrelevant

to the issue at hand, when predictive/medical astrology isn't even a

part of this tradition.

 

Before we get to far along, I do want to point out that my argument

isn't with astrology per se. Synchronicity is an interesting

phenomena, and as such, I have made a life-long study of it, mostly

related to the tarot, i ching, dream work and some astrology. Quite

frankly, I think the relative " success " of astrology depends entirely

on the individual practitioner to a much greater degree than any

other healing profession. Some people are very intuitive and

astrology can help guide that intuition - but you have to know as

much what not to pay attention to, as what to pay attention to.

According to the Samkhya astrology is only anumana/inference, because

while it purports to claim the effect of astronomical objects on an

individual here on earth, it cannot observe this effect directly

(pratyaksha). As such, it does not thus cannot be regarded as

reliable, even if sometimes (randomly) insightful. Astrology is an

inherently subjective and essentially irrational, even though it has

its own internal logic. Many people take it to mean something far

too important.

 

>

> *** there is no reference to the use of nakshatras for predictive

> purposes either - rather, it appears that they were used to mark

> the passage

> of time, and for Hindus, to determine the proper time to conduct

> the yagnas, as well as for more mundane purposes such as farming.

>

> Astrology is nowadays mainly assimilated to the study of one's

> birth data, but this form of astrology (Jataka) is relatively

> recent and is probably the latest. Originally, astrological

> practices were indeed mainly used to ascertain the most auspicious

> moments for mundane or religious purposes (Muhurta) or to answer

> questions (Prashna). These forms of astrology come along with their

> own rules and techniques which are far from being simple, but seem

> to date back from very old times, given the importance of

> nakshatras and their number (28 instead of 27)...

 

What do you mean by prashna exactly? Can you give an example from

the vedas?

 

>

> *** we must remember that so many of India's great mahatmas have

> also told us to avoid superstitious practices

>

> Superstition comes from a wrong conception arising from an

> incomplete knowledge or biased transmission of some original truth.

> But should we get rid of the original truth along with the

> superstitious practices ?

 

Have i suggested that? I hope not. In my observation, many people

can talk a good talk about spiritual principles, but when they are

selling you something _directly_ opposed to those principles, how can

this be valid? Does the Gita not say:

 

karmani evaadhikaaras te maa phaleshu kadaachana

maa karmaphalahetur bhoor maa te sango 'stv akarmani

 

You have right over your respective duty only,

But no control or claim over the results.

The fruits of work should not be your motive.

You should never be inactive. "

 

As such, the predictive nature of astrology runs counter to the very

ethic of the Gita, and the heart of the spiritual teachings of the

vedas. In my experience too many people sit and worry about the

fruits of their potential actions and future, about how malicious

grahas such as Shani and Ketu are creating troubles for them, wasting

vital energy and resources better spent creating and following their

own truth, whether it be health, wealth or love.

 

Really, the rules are simple. Need money? Donate and volunteer.

Need love? Become a loving person. Need health? Take action NOW to

become healthier. Its all a matter of choice.

 

We have got it all wrong: the spinning planets and twinkling stars

aren't our masters.

They are our audience!

 

Caldecott

todd

www.toddcaldecott.com

[Guest guest]

hi patti

 

i can't claim to be a vastu practitioner, and so i cannot comment if

the predictive astrological elements have crept into the modern

practice of vastu

 

vastu is entirely devoted to sacred geometry and architecture - the

original jyotisha probably played an important role, but it probably

wasn't based on getting more money or appeasing certain planets

 

as for its applicability to ayurveda, vastu would inform the location

and structure of a hospital

 

actually, Charaka gives instructions for the building of a healing

retreat, and while this advice could be considered vastu, the

criteria are practical, simple and clear

 

Caldecott

todd

www.toddcaldecott.com

_____________

> Your post also made me think of Vaastu architecture? Is it based on

> astrology?

[Guest guest]

On 26-Jan-08, at 2:44 AM, ayurveda wrote:

 

> You rock Thierry.

> Great explanation.

> Actually Hippocrates stated to his students at his time that all

> doctors must be well versed in astrology to properly diagnose a

> patient.

> He said it is ill advisable to diagnose anyone properly without the

> aid of astrology.

 

Where did you find this quote or reference Raja? I searched for

" astrology and Hippocrates " in google and the only sites that popped

were astrology websites with an oft repeated, unreferenced quote

identifying physicians that don't use astrology as " fools " .

 

To settle the matter, the best thing to do is to actually _read_ what

Hippocrates wrote, or what is attributed to him, in the Hippocratic

Corpus. You can do this by directing your web browser to an online

repository of his work, translated into English: http://

classics.mit.edu/Browse/index-Hippocrates.html

 

When one reads Hippocrates, and places his work in proper context, it

is VERY clear that a main thrust of his approach was to remove the

magico-religious elements from the practice of medicine, while still

supporting the concept of vitalism (vis medicatrix naturae). On

reading his text on " Prognostics " , one might be inclined to read into

it the subject of fortune-telling, but in reality Hippocrates is

simply referring to the skill of making a proper prognosis, which is

essential for any physician to know:

 

" It appears to me a most excellent thing for the physician to

cultivate Prognosis; for by foreseeing and foretelling, in the

presence of the sick, the present, the past, and the future, and

explaining the omissions which patients have been guilty of, he will

be the more readily believed to be acquainted with the circumstances

of the sick; so that men will have confidence to intrust themselves

to such a physician. And he will manage the cure best who has

foreseen what is to happen from the present state of matters....Thus

a man will be the more esteemed to be a good physician, for he will

be the better able to treat those aright who can be saved, having

long anticipated everything; and by seeing and announcing beforehand

those who will live and those who will die, he will thus escape

censure. " (The Book of Prognostics: http://classics.mit.edu/

Hippocrates/prognost.html)

 

Nowhere is else in the text on prognostics does Hippocrates make

specific reference to astrology, but I can see how in the above

someone might read into the above the necessity of predictive devices

and oracles. Nonetheless, this failing could only be attributed to a

failure of their intelligence and education. Further, on the subject

of the " divine " nature of disease and the use of magico-reigious

elements as treatment, Hippocrates writes:

 

" They who first referred this malady to the gods appear to me to have

been just such persons as the conjurors, purificators, mountebanks,

and charlatans now are, who give themselves out for being excessively

religious, and as knowing more than other people. Such persons, then,

using the divinity as a pretext and screen of their own inability to

of their own inability to afford any assistance, have given out that

the disease is sacred, adding suitable reasons for this opinion, they

have instituted a mode of treatment which is safe for themselves,

namely, by applying purifications and incantations, and enforcing

abstinence from baths and many articles of food which are unwholesome

to men in diseases....But if these things, when administered in food,

aggravate the disease, and if it be cured by abstinence from them,

godhead is not the cause at all; nor will purifications be of any

avail, but it is the food which is beneficial and prejudicial, and

the influence of the divinity vanishes. " (On The Sacred Disease:

http://classics.mit.edu/Hippocrates/sacred.html)

 

So you might want to be a little more fair in your assessment Raja,

or at least not rely on unreferenced, inaccurate quotes. You are

free to believe in astrology and you can even believe in medica/

predictive astrology, but you will have a hard time defending that it

is both an indigenous and necessary practice of Ayurveda, or even

Hippocratic medicine.

 

 

best wishes... Todd

 

Caldecott, Dip. Cl.H, RH(AHG)

Ayurvedic practitioner, Medical Herbalist

203 - 1750 East 10th Ave

Vancouver, BC V5N 5K4 CANADA

web: http//:www.toddcaldecott.com

email: todd

tel: (1)778.896.8894

fax: (1)866.703.2792

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

*** My point has been that some Ayurvedic practitioners will state that

successful diagnosis and treatment in Ayurveda depends on astrological

forecasts.

 

I know very little about ayurveda really, and I am not fool enough to tell an

ayurvedic pracitioner he should use astrological forecasts to reach a succesful

diagnosis. And actually, I am sure there is no need to know astrology to be a

good vaidya. But what I can state according to my own experience is that

correlating astrology and traditional medicines (notably ayurveda) is a

necessity for the astrologers who want to deal with health issues. These

correlations obviously exist, as traditional medicines and astrology are based

on the same conception of the universe, which compares the man to the world in

the well-known symbolic law of analogy between microcosm and macrocosm. And as

accounting has nothing to do with this law of analogy, I am sure you will agree

that this comparison is as well irrelevant in this matter.

Talking about analogy, I would like here to point out that the foundation of

astrology is not the assumption that there is any physical influence of the

astronomical bodies upon the human being (which is non-sense really if one

compares the physical influence of the moon upon the earth to the one of

saturn). The sky is a " prophecy " of the man and not a physical cause that would

act on his cells or whatever.

 

*** What do you mean by prashna exactly? Can you give an example from the vedas?

 

Prashna is the science that allows one to interpret the signification of the

celestial phenomena, sounds, dreams, breathing, and all sort of omens at a given

time, as all the creation reflects permanently the unity beyond it. There are of

course astrological applications to this science. Well, I have to say I am not

an expert of the Vedas at all, so I cannot answer your question. At least I can

say that this principle of the time having a qualitative value can be found in

the Greek pantheon (namely Kaïros, different from his " quantitative " counterpart

Chronos) and of course in the Bible, where divination is omnipresent.

 

*** I think the relative " success " of astrology depends entirely on the

individual practitioner to a much greater degree than any other healing

profession. Some people are very intuitive and astrology can help guide that

intuition

 

There are psychics and there are astrologers, but a psychic is not an astrologer

nor an astrologer is a psychic. But you are right there are psychics who use

astrology as a support, making believe that the main thing you need to succeed

in astrology is intuition. Actually, intuition is less useful to the astrologer

than a learned and respectable teacher, the sense of observation, the knowledge

and love of mankind, the experience of life, and the humility in front of the

Nature. I think it is not that different from the other healing professions.

 

*** I think you also agreed with me that the practice of predictive astrology is

non-Indian in origin and thus decidedly non-Vedic.

 

Let us be honest, nobody knows anything about the origins of the predictive

astrology, and certainly not the historians as the field of archeo-astronomy

remains largely unexplored. If we can suspect that horoscopy (prediction through

the rising zodiacal sign) originated somewhere in Mesopotamia and may have been

brought to India by the Greeks, there is in return little doubt that the

nakshatra-based systems of prediction like the vimshottari dasha are of a much

older Indian origin.

 

*** In my experience too many people sit and worry about the fruits of their

potential actions and future, about how malicious grahas such as Shani and Ketu

are creating troubles for them, wasting vital energy and resources.

 

I fully agree with you but I would not conclude, knowing there can be

hypochondriac patients and physicians who seek lucre instead of healing, that

medicine is not worth it, so why should I do this for astrology? Let me tell

you, if someone asks me for a reading while having no big trouble in his life, I

will tell him roughly that he is making me lose my time, and will advise him to

live his life instead of looking for being reassured. But when someone is in big

trouble, and needs to understand while he has to face such an ordeal and how

long it will last for before the things get better, then astrology can

definitely be helpful to relieve his pain.

 

Best regards

Thierry