Gestational diabetes : please suggest anyremedy

[Guest guest]

Dear Shirish,

>The response you have posted to the basic queries somehow does not lend justice

to Ayurveda as whole. As the name of this site suggests we should place more

standard information about Ayurveda. This site must have been visited by many

people all over the world and not only by US citizen. So even if the query is

put forth by US patient, the answer will be read by all over the world. Hence

statements regarding Ayurvedic outlook have to cover all the aspects.

>Ayurveda is a responsible medical science and not just a collection of

Grandma's remedies. Ayurveda had been evidence-based in its own times and the

references of various conferences are cited in the basic Ayurvedic Samhitas.

>Gestational condition and post-partum condtions are two seperate physiological

exhibitions. Medicines safe in post-partum phase may not be safe in gestational

period.

>Food items when used as medicines are to be consumed in much more larger

quantities. One teaspoon of fenugreek seeds are used for a vegetable preparation

of four people whereas as medicine in diabetes it has to be used at a dose of at

least two teaspoons for a single dose, so the intake actually becomes eight-fold

per person. Do you mean to say that the therapeutic effect of two teaspoons is

equal to a quarter of a teaspoon? It can never be so, in terms of medicine or

Ayurveda. Medicinal activities are always dose-dependant. So is the case of

Bitter-gourd ie. Karela. Karela when used as a vegetable preparation is cooked

and generally consumed as about one karela per person. As medicine for diabetes,

you need to use atleast four karelas at a time, that too raw (may be consumed as

fresh juice),to show any therapeutic effect. Do you mean to say that besides

dose, raw karela and cooked karela have identical effects? I would rather say

no. And thats the reason why nobody become hypoglycaemic after eating cooked

karela in the vegetable.

>As I previosly said, one exemplary case does not make a rule about anything in

medicine.

>Legalites should be understood by the patient time and again and hence will

have to brought in discussions, in spite of the disclaimer.

Till then,

DrD.B.Muzumdar

M.D.Ayurvedic Medicine (INDIA)

< dahpc >

________________________

By the way, both fenugreek and bitter gourd, both food items, well known for

reducing insulin resistance, both help lactation in post partum. In this

author's experience, sugar going down to dangerous levels never happened, if one

is following 100% ayurvedic approach and patient listens to the body.<snip>

[Guest guest]

Dear

I have always read your mails with great interest. However, the issue under

discussion was gestational hyperglycaemia / diabetes. My points were very clear

-

1) whether to club this type under Madhumeha just because the blood sugar is

high or treat the patient according to the symptoms presented? This is because

the advice for use of karela and fenugreek was posted which are definitely not

the medicines indicated for polyuria, the symptom presented by the patient

2) gestation is a very delicate condition and there should be very responsible

advice. I found that the advice given was not exactly Ayurvedic, but pushed in

the name of Ayurvedic treatment. At the most, it could have been classified as

household measures. Still there are lacunae in that suggestion.

 

As far as authentic Ayurvedic viewpoint about Madhumeha and other three types of

Vataja Prameha is considered, they are all said to be of Asaadhya ie incurable

nature if very chronic or long-standing , and at the best, Yaapya ie

controllable with proper medication, diet and care but not totally curable. This

description very much fits with the pathology of Diabetes. The Kaphaja Pramehas

are very much Saadhya ie curable. All foods heavy to digest (high calorie

content) should be definitely avoided in Madumeha according to Ayurveda (whether

of carbohydate or protein or fat content) which again confirms with modern

diabetic calorie management. However, Laghu (easily digestible) and Santarpana (

immediately satisfying and nourishing but not promoting obesity) are allowed in

Ayurveda which is again in tandem with modern diabetic management. The food

items described in Ayurveda to be used by Madhumehis do have carbohydrates as

well as proteins in moderation, hence eliminating any one factor does not hold

good ground. Again, the theory of antagonism of Vata and Kapha leading to use of

Kapha promoting herbs to subside Vata does not hold true in case of Vataja

Pramehas including Madhumeha.

 

I agree with your point of clouded agendas with distorted vision of original

Ayurvedic principles. This is because many views are built on some personal

perceptions rather than following the basic tenets mentioned in Sanskrit version

of original Samhitas.

 

I sincerely feel that if this site has to be creditable, we all have to be

careful while giving solutions in the name of Ayurveda or I fear we would be

like a chat site. You have always taken that precaution and I appreciate that.

Till then,

Dr.D.B.Muzumdar

M.D.Ayurvedic-Medicine (INDIA)

( dahpc >

_____________________

in recent times i have avoided giving detailed advice on non-

practitioner lists because any protocol implemented needs to be

monitored by a practitioner - thus even while i want to help i try to

speak in general terms, and encourage folks to consult with

practitioners in their local area<snip>

[Guest guest]

Dear Shirish,

In my earlier reply, I could not visit the sites mentioned by you in your reply.

i went through the sites today.

In the e-zine article,I find no use of Karela in gestational conditions.

In the ndtv article, the advice on gestational diabetes is given by a consultant

nutritionist, that too with a word of caution that blood sugar levels should be

monitered and that blood sugar levels falling below normal levels is not a good

idea. This proves that my due concern expressed in my reply must be taken note

of by all concrned.

Yours

Dr.D.B.Muzumdar

M.D.Ayurvedic Medicine (INDIA)

< dahpc >

__________

Ayurvedic assessment of bitetr gourd is here:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Bitter-Melon-(Karela)---Bitter-Gourd-for-Diabetes-Mell\

itus & id=263300

 

Here is Successful real life experience of using bitter gourd twice a day

during gestation, in addition to insulin dose! And it includes blood sugar

control too!

 

http://www.doctorndtv.com/FAQ/detailfaq.asp?id=10260

[Guest guest]

dear dr. muzumdar

 

> . All foods heavy to digest (high calorie content) should be

> definitely avoided in Madumeha according to Ayurveda (whether of

> carbohydate or protein or fat content) which again confirms with

> modern diabetic calorie management.

 

you will hopefully admit that this statement contains at least one

logical leap that i think should be clearly identified, namely, that

high calorie foods are necessarily " heavy " to digest

 

let us examine the factors which make a food indigestible, or at

least those factors that exist universally and are not individual-

specific

 

from an ayurvedic perspective these would be foods that are opposite

in nature to agni, ie. are cold, heavy, greasy etc

thus, any food, especially those that are hot in nature, would tend

to enhance agni (and more so if they are also light, dry etc as well)

 

from a scientific perspective, we would say that foods that inhibit

digestion are due to factors inherent to that food, for example,

indigestible fibers, lectins, phytates, protease inhibitors, etc. -

all components of grains and legumes generally, which require further

processing to ensure digestibility, but usu. at the expense of

factors such as blood sugar management, i.e. white rice is very

digestible, and also rapidly raises blood sugar

 

in short, calories has nothing to do with digestibility, but is a

separate variable - unfortunately, most modern nutrition doesn't

factor in digestibility when it comes to nutrition tables, which end

up giving vegie foods a much more favorable comparison to non-veg

foods - this is the next frontier in modern nutrition, but one which

is sure to raise many hackles

 

generally speaking, if we consider the stomach as the sthana of agni,

then any food that enhances or maintains a potent pH in the gut

(which also serves as a mechanism of immuno-resistance), will also

enhance agni - in short, the stomach is a sack that is designed to

proteins, and the richer the protein source the stronger the feedback

effect to enhance agni (liver/gb problems excluded...)

 

meat-eating and poor digestion is usually the result of over-cooked

meat (which is toxic) or poor food combinations (i.e. protein-starch)

- if just these two factors are avoided, digestion is usually

significantly enhanced, and what was " hard " to digest suddenly

becomes effortless...

 

> However, Laghu (easily digestible) and Santarpana ( immediately

> satisfying and nourishing but not promoting obesity) are allowed in

> Ayurveda which is again in tandem with modern diabetic management.

 

they are, but should they be? by this logic, we would include foods

such as pohwa, which fulfills all this criteria and yet has a high

glycemic profile - as a practitioner i would be very circumspect

about this food in diabetes...

 

 

> The food items described in Ayurveda to be used by Madhumehis do

> have carbohydrates as well as proteins in moderation, hence

> eliminating any one factor does not hold good ground.

 

its impossible to completely eliminate ALL carbs, which is why even

zero carb IDDMs still have to take insulin

 

the idea here is to correct the ratio of macronutrients to stabilize

blood sugar, to prevent precipitous highs and desperate lows - and

gluconeogenesis is a very important metabolic key

 

interestingly, when one considers what is needed in madhumeha,

reducing vata while not promoting kapha, the sweet and astringent

properties of lean animal products is exactly what is required as per

ayurvedic logic, although admittedly, it doesn't work so well with

the predominant aesthetic

 

 

> Again, the theory of antagonism of Vata and Kapha leading to use of

> Kapha promoting herbs to subside Vata does not hold true in case of

> Vataja Pramehas including Madhumeha.

 

vata reducing does not necessarily mean kapha-promoting - its all a

matter of degree

 

gokshura isn't promotive of kapha, and yet reduces vata; you might

also consider the use of the aralias (e.g. ginseng) in diabetes, and

their capacity to stabilize blood sugar while energizing the system

(note that ama is a different consideration)

 

> >

> > I agree with your point of clouded agendas with distorted vision

> of original Ayurvedic principles. This is because many views are

> built on some personal perceptions rather than following the basic

> tenets mentioned in Sanskrit version of original Samhitas.

 

the logic of ayurveda is there - it isn't shrouded in sanskrit mysteries

it is self-evident and borne in our relationship with the earth

 

the samhitas provide guidance, but we also live now in the 21st century

are people the same as they were 2000 years ago?

do we suffer from the same diseases in the same way?

do all the old formulas and approaches always work?

is it the system or the medicine which is eternal?

 

a few thoughts for consideration

 

best... todd

Caldecott, Dip. Cl.H, RH(AHG)

Ayurvedic practitioner, Medical Herbalist

203 - 1750 East 10th Ave

Vancouver, BC V5N 5K4 CANADA

web: http//:www.toddcaldecott.com

email: todd

tel: 778.896.8894

fax: 415.376.6736

[Guest guest]

ayurveda , muzumdar <dahpc wrote:

 

> In the e-zine article,I find no use of Karela in gestational

conditions.

 

Correct; You will find it nowhere except in this authors postings.

Gestational diabetes is invented in U.S.A. in last 10 years or so,

afetr diabetes became an epidemic. You were requested to find

anything " unayurvedic " in that article. This author used Karela since

it is a food item and " The food is thy medicine "

 

> In the ndtv article, the advice on gestational diabetes is given by

a consultant nutritionist, that too with a word of caution that blood

sugar levels should be monitered and that blood sugar levels falling

below normal levels is not a good idea.

 

People like ayurveda, since Nutritionist/dietician's role is also fulfilled by

Vaidya. You focus on what suits your statements. Did you not note that a

patient, who was unable to control sugar with even insulin, could finally do it

with " Karela " ? Without anybody's advise! The natural insulin filled up nutrional

deficiency making blood sugras stable ultimately. That was the point author was

trying to bring out.

[Guest guest]

Dear

I dont know why everybody tries to compartmentalise and seperate Ayurveda and

modern views? They are almost the same viewing the same problem from different

angles. Ayurveda has given all the required dictums for healthy living as well

as for recovery from health abberrations ie. diseases and disorders.I have

always been clear in my concepts on one count - that modern interpretation of

Ayurvedic principles is just a matter of different perception / pathway of

explanation serving the same ends. My previous mails are self-explanatory to

this fact.

As for the questions raised by you

1) Are people the same as they were 2000 years ago? My ans. is yes. As far as

medically speaking our anatony and physiology has remained fairly the same

thro'out the last 2000 years, inspite of our outwardly changes

2) Do we suffer from same diseases in the same way? Disease manifestations may

have changed by modern terms, there may have been newer disease labels or new

syndromes; they still fit into the doshic grid of Ayurvedic evaluation and can

be accomodated within the Ayurvedic disease classification based on their

predominant sign-symptoms. Sometimes old things come in a new package.

3) Do all the old formulas and approaches always work? Upgradation will always

be there and approaches will differ according to availability of medicines and

gadgets and needs of civilisations and resultant utility. But the basic

principles of management of health and disease will always stay on. That is what

I have experienced as a medical consultant. The basic grid of Ayurveda is still

applicable to this date.

4) Is it the system or medicine which is eternal? Frankly I have not understood

this question. If you are talking about Ayurveda, we all Ayurvedic doctors feel

that Ayurveda has proved to be more stable as a health and medical science. By

medicine, If you mean medicinal herbs or drugs, it will again depend on natural

or man-made resources, which I don't feel are eternal.

These 'thoughts for consideration' have clearly re-enforced my views that

whatever Ayurveda is taught outside India is mostly of limited version. In such

cases, doubts of basic nature are bound to occur. It is like learning modern

medicine without going to medical college. Learnig Ayurveda without

understanding the basic tenets and principles of Ayurveda will amount to

herbalism / grandma's therapy / household measures and not Ayurvedic treatment.

Hence many times, Ayurveda expressed on this site is percieved version, not the

original version.

Awaiting more thoughts for consideration.

Yours,

Dr.D.B.Muzumdar

M.D.Ayurvedic Medicine(INDIA)

< dahpc >

______________

<snip> the logic of ayurveda is there - it isn't shrouded in sanskrit mysteries

it is self-evident and borne in our relationship with the earth

the samhitas provide guidance, but we also live now in the 21st century

are people the same as they were 2000 years ago?

do we suffer from the same diseases in the same way?

do all the old formulas and approaches always work?

is it the system or the medicine which is eternal?

 

a few thoughts for consideration

[Guest guest]

ayurveda , muzumdar <dahpc wrote:

 

> >The response you have posted to the basic queries somehow does not

lend justice to Ayurveda as whole. As the name of this site suggests

we should place more standard information about Ayurveda. This site

must have been visited by many people all over the world and not only

by US citizen. So even if the query is put forth by US patient, the

answer will be read by all over the world. Hence statements regarding

Ayurvedic outlook have to cover all the aspects.

 

>Ayurveda is a responsible medical science and not just a collection

of Grandma's remedies. Ayurveda had been evidence-based in its own

times and the references of various conferences are cited in the

basic Ayurvedic Samhitas.

 

This site is not Samhita's or Degree giving college, where standard syllabus,

labs, assignments are the schedule. The science of life, longevity has to

understood while living. Vaidyas should simplify and put before people what may

be practical in todays life. Also save them from modern poisons, if he can find

them using ayurvedic methods. The groups objective is to share the knowledge.

Whether it is earned while learning-practicing ayurveda, yoga etc. While

extracts of ancient and modern texts are also appearing in the posts, more often

querries and real life experiences are getting exchanged. When it comes to Yoga,

pranayama, asanas, there remains a need to discuss the experiences. Usefulness

of these discussions is evident from many posts in past. Much of the material

posted here can be pointed out as deviating from standard ayurveda. IN this

context, it ay be worth noting the reasons for meteoric rise of Baba Ramdev on

yoga and ayurveda horozon. When several persons followed his simple drugless

approaches and started shouting about the success on small screen, all the world

could see that here was a PRACTCAL and SUCCESSFUL expressway to health. Without

the powerful medium of TV and the mob which practiced the approach, this would

not have been possible.

 

While Ayurveda gives importance to water food herbs etc, it was left for Baba

Ramdev to point out that measure input in our body is Prana, water and food

together hardly 10% by weight. As Todd points out, we should learn from mother

nature, in same fashion as acharyas learnt. Acharyas would not have forseen

bonet to bonet traffic, pollution and chemical sea of processed foods.

 

It is felt that Karela and fenugreek you are taking as Grandma's

remedy. would you consider them " ayurvedic " if these have been

included by acharyas of ancient texts? In texts referred most? They indeed are.

 

It is shown in old postings that ayurvedic remedies, anupanas, have

been existing in some Puranas also, not restrcted to just Brihatrayi.

In the personal opinion of this author, it takes a life time to

digest even one ancient text. One can read many, but digesting is

different. It is impossible for a vaidya to read everything since the

time of Manu.

 

> >Gestational condition and post-partum condtions are two seperate

physiological exhibitions. Medicines safe in post-partum phase may

not be safe in gestational period.

 

Right. That is the reason (In the first suggestion to pregnant lady)

no classical remedies were suggested. Only food items were suggested.

 

 

 

> >Food items when used as medicines are to be consumed in much more

larger quantities. One teaspoon of fenugreek seeds are used for a

vegetable preparation of four people whereas as medicine in diabetes

it has to be used at a dose of at least two teaspoons for a single

dose, so the intake actually becomes eight-fold per person. ...

 

Author never said cooked karela helps diabetes or sugar problems. IT

is the Karela JUICE only, which author has used successfully. And for

insulin resistance, fenugreek heem not cooking spice which was

mentioned. You streched the food items to cooking. Another Panchgavya

medicine which is very successful, uses Karela, fenugreek and other

herbs. Wonder why scientists took interest in Karela? The dosage

recommended by this author were chosen in ancient style..based on

finger size, body response etc

 

Vaidyas should not ignore herbs of importance, even if they have

passing mention in texts and especially when they are successful. You

may have noted that that despite rice dominant south indian diet, the

lady in question reduced her sugar levels by just 1 tsp fenugreek

heem, only once a day. The dosages taken early morning are twice as

effective! Dosage can not be standardized universally, they have to

depend on persons pulse, form in which medicine is being taken, the

severity of imbalance (not the severity of named disease in terms of

allopathic parameters, patients faith, his bioenergy levels etc) Some

of these parameters are to be learnt by practice and are not

mentioned in standard texts.

 

Author agrees with cautionary notes, need that eveybody should

consult a local vaidya since each individual is unique.

Unfortunately, at least in India, those who take ayurvedic herbs or

formulations, 80% self medication is going on by " listen to body "

approach. Having burnt by milk, people are cautious with buttermilk

too!

 

This brings to the memory one marathi proverb, which translates as

the Karela, whatever way you process remains bitter only! One may

destroy enzymes inside by steaming, add oxidative factors by frying,

add sugar syrup to reduce bitteness, but its bitterness cant be

eliminated 100%. its effectiveness as a " food helping diabetics live

in comfort " reduces with processing..Best way for greens is to take

them as mother nature gave.

 

>As I previosly said, one exemplary case does not make a rule about

anything in medicine.

 

Author never claimed something as a universal rule.

ayurveda does not need " one size fits all " rules,

or standard dosages also. Each individual is different. General

guidelines can exist in texts, discussions. But when it comes to a

patient, each one has different requirements. Hence vaidyas alter the profile of

mixtures, even drop an item.

[Guest guest]

On 10-Sep-07, at 2:45 AM, ayurveda wrote:

 

> Re: Gestational diabetes : please suggest anyremedy

>

> Posted by: " muzumdar " dahpc dbm2110

>

> Sun Sep 9, 2007 10:42 pm (PST)

>

> Dear

> I dont know why everybody tries to compartmentalise and seperate

> Ayurveda and modern views? They are almost the same viewing the

> same problem from different angles. Ayurveda has given all the

> required dictums for healthy living as well as for recovery from

> health abberrations ie. diseases and disorders.I have always been

> clear in my concepts on one count - that modern interpretation of

> Ayurvedic principles is just a matter of different perception /

> pathway of explanation serving the same ends. My previous mails are

> self-explanatory to this fact.

 

dear dr muzumdar

 

i was hoping to also receive your comments with regard to my point

about the low carb approach in diabetes, but for now will content

myself to discussing the following...

 

 

> As for the questions raised by you

> 1) Are people the same as they were 2000 years ago? My ans. is yes.

> As far as medically speaking our anatony and physiology has

> remained fairly the same thro'out the last 2000 years, inspite of

> our outwardly changes

 

our physiology has remained more or less the same for much longer

than 2000 years if we consider an evolutionary perspective - so long

in fact, that it extends far beyond any reasonable time we could say

it predates any system of formal medicine, including ayurveda

 

but you appear to miss my point - do people live the same lives they

lived 2000 years ago? are they affected by the same factors that

promote health and disease, or have factors appeared that have not

been taken into account by he ancient texts? several practitioners

acknowledge environmental factors such as xenoestrogens and

electromagnetic fields - how can this be accounted for exactly in

ayurveda? similarly, look at way we have industrialized the food

supply... how we have weeded physical exercise out of our very

existence...

 

while i believe that these factors can (mostly) be accounted for by

classical ayurveda, it takes some intelligence and re-interpretation

as well - not just practice based on rote memorization

 

i have been editing on a text written by a nepalese ayurvedic

physician, whose tradition represents a 700 year family history, and

in the course of this history the lineage of practitioners have noted

that there are subtle shifts in the way disease manifests and the

efficacy of the various treatments

 

they found that treatments once used no longer worked all that well,

or that formulas for condition A were actually better for condition

B, in contradiction to classical indications

 

this would suggest a difference between the classical ayurveda and

the evolving 'practical' ayurveda based on real time clinical experience

 

from the perspective of this lineage, the intelligent physician not

only observes this phenomena but _expects_ this to happen, to one

degree or another

 

and this is apart from the fact that the classical medical knowledge

that ayurveda has to offer is derived from experience within a

limited population, within a limited bioclimactic region, and cannot

be applied globally without any thought or insight

 

ayurveda has proven itself adaptable to change in the past - syphilis

was a disease of north american indians brought to india by europeans

- the herb of choice to treat this condition? a foreign herb called

Smilax chinensis...

 

 

> 2) Do we suffer from same diseases in the same way? Disease

> manifestations may have changed by modern terms, there may have

> been newer disease labels or new syndromes; they still fit into the

> doshic grid of Ayurvedic evaluation and can be accomodated within

> the Ayurvedic disease classification based on their predominant

> sign-symptoms. Sometimes old things come in a new package.

 

the issue isn't just semantics, as you seem to suggest

 

lets look at the issue of diabetes - clearly this is a big problem,

but from my estimation, the classical description of prameha doesn't

necessarily account for the progression of the modern form of this

disease, or at least typical treatments don't get to the root cause

 

i say this, because 90% of the vaidyas, BAMS and MD(Ayu)s that i have

met over the age of 30 has significant truncal-abdominal obesity,

indicative of metabolic syndrome and prediabetes... is this a

failure of ayurveda? or is this failure of intelligence?

 

 

> 3) Do all the old formulas and approaches always work? Upgradation

> will always be there and approaches will differ according to

> availability of medicines and gadgets and needs of civilisations

> and resultant utility. But the basic principles of management of

> health and disease will always stay on. That is what I have

> experienced as a medical consultant. The basic grid of Ayurveda is

> still applicable to this date.

 

with your last statement i have no argument, but will clarify my

thoughts below

 

 

> 4) Is it the system or medicine which is eternal? Frankly I have

> not understood this question. If you are talking about Ayurveda, we

> all Ayurvedic doctors feel that Ayurveda has proved to be more

> stable as a health and medical science. By medicine, If you mean

> medicinal herbs or drugs, it will again depend on natural or man-

> made resources, which I don't feel are eternal.

 

what i mean to say, is that the ingredients don't make the system -

that if ayurveda is a global system of healing (which i believe it

is), it cannot be defined solely on the basis of the herbs, formulas

and various practices that have developed in India

 

i often make this argument with western herbal medicine

(physiomedicalism) - more scientifically-inclined practitioners and

critics reduce the practice to the individual actions of the herbs,

without understanding the _system_ behind their use

 

they have a hard time understanding how it doesn't matter _which_

herb i use, as long as it falls into a specific system of usage

 

my thesis is that the system of ayurveda (i.e. tridosha siddhanta)

transcends cultural dictates, and that not only is this true but it

is a necessity because the population of the earth aren't all indian

(despite the prevailing mythos in india that all the peoples of the

world are vedic in origin), with each group of people living in

unique environments experiencing different factors that may or may

not be accounted for as per classical (indian) ayurveda

 

good example is rtucharya - where is sharat in temperate canada? it

doesn't exist - so how do we account for this? another example,

ayurveda says milk is good and should be consumed regularly, and yet

many people on this list cannot tolerate it - so who is wrong,

ayurveda or the people intolerant to milk?

 

while i was a vegetarian for almost 10 years, to be very frank, the

typical indian diet does not suit me it all

i truly enjoy the flavors, but if i eat it regularly my body does not

like it (in this i am not referring to to so much the herbs as the

way the foods are prepared... as far as asian foods, chinese suits me

much better)

 

i know some in india might feel free to make all kinds of judgments

about me based on my dietary choices, but these people are prejudiced

and so deeply cloaked in orthodoxy that they are irrelevant to me and

will become increasingly so to indians as well, simply because they

have lost the capacity to be flexible to new circumstances and ideas

- their very belief structure puts them at odds with life herself

 

does ayurveda say i must import my food and medicines at great

expense from thousands of miles away, polluting the atmosphere and

water merely to satisfy the aesthetic of using " indian " herbs? how

is that ayurveda?

 

come with me some time for a walk in the forest in canada - let us

spend a a couple days gathering the herbs

 

come taste the herbs with me, feel them in your body and mind, and

know that these powerful devic energies are just as powerful as those

in india

 

i wonder after such an experience what conclusion you might come to,

once removed from the comfort of the familiar?

 

the ayurvedic physicians i know that have come to canada never stop

to look out their own door, to the bounty and blessings that surround

us here, but continue import stale products from india

 

is this ayurveda? what does charaka say?

 

 

> These 'thoughts for consideration' have clearly re-enforced my

> views that whatever Ayurveda is taught outside India is mostly of

> limited version. In such cases, doubts of basic nature are bound to

> occur. It is like learning modern medicine without going to medical

> college. Learnig Ayurveda without understanding the basic tenets

> and principles of Ayurveda will amount to herbalism / grandma's

> therapy / household measures and not Ayurvedic treatment. Hence

> many times, Ayurveda expressed on this site is percieved version,

> not the original version.

 

although you use the term " grandmother " in a pejorative sense, in

actuality, we are all born from grandma and would do well to give her

the proper respect

 

grandmother is the repository of your knowledge - she is in your

senses, in your heart and in your conditioned thoughts

she is the beginning and the end, and i for one would be very careful

about criticizing grandma, lest you incur her wrath! ;-)

 

throughout the last 2000 years (corresponding to the picean age in

western astrology) there has been a trend to turn healing into a

profession, and in so doing, removed and isolated it from the

knowledge of the people, so nobody believes grandma any more and we

are all sick from chronic disease

 

in this age of professionalists, people set themselves up as an

" authority " , with all the credentials and certifications that befits

their apparent skill and erudition - but do they know, or do they

only play the part of knowing?

 

my belief is that the principles of ayurveda are self-evident in our

relationship with grandmother earth, and that when we listen to her,

we understand the transcendent nature of medicine and healing

 

i am increasingly worried about the trend to professionalize ayurveda

- it seems to me that many indians have bought up this western notion

lock stock and barrel, without any thought to the eventual

repercussions of this (i.e. ayurveda corptocracy), which will serve

to sever ayurveda from the people, and from nature itself

 

yes, proper training and clinical skills are very important, but if

you believe this to be so i wonder why we are having this discussion

instead of debating my earlier points on diet, diabetes and ayurveda

 

let's discuss something of practical importance, instead of dancing

around the issue

 

best... todd caldecott

Caldecott, Dip. Cl.H, RH(AHG)

Ayurvedic practitioner, Medical Herbalist

203 - 1750 East 10th Ave

Vancouver, BC V5N 5K4 CANADA

web: http//:www.toddcaldecott.com

email: todd

tel: 778.896.8894

fax: 415.376.6736

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr Muzumdar

 

Your post touches several fundamental issues. When fundamental issues

are being discussed, it is better to get some doubts clarified. Your

views on following points are being saught in a quest for knowledge,

not trying to criticise them.

 

ayurveda , muzumdar <dahpc wrote:

 

> I dont know why everybody tries to compartmentalise and seperate

Ayurveda and modern views? They are almost the same viewing the same

problem from different angles. Ayurveda has given all the required

dictums for healthy living as well as for recovery from health

abberrations ie. diseases and disorders.I have always been clear in

my concepts on one count - that modern interpretation of Ayurvedic

principles is just a matter of different perception / pathway of

explanation serving the same ends. My previous mails are self-

explanatory to this fact.

 

 

There appears a lack of correspondence between the two. If we take

Prameha and diabetes this is glaringly evident. While ayurveda (you

may take samhitas here in a limited sense)defines twenty different

type of pramehas, with detailed classifications of symptoms, doshas

causing them and also treatments, we find modern science has only two

classifications in mind (Gestational is just another label, treatment and

management being is essentially same) and sugar control occupies the most

attention. If blood

sugar is under control, irrespective of through what method, the

disease is considered well managed.

 

Please discuss your views, especially from the consideration of

streching and fitting ancient wisdom in present world.

 

> But the basic principles of management of health and disease will

always stay on. That is what I have experienced as a medical

consultant. The basic grid of Ayurveda is still applicable to this

date.

 

Author agrees with you, that any disease even undefined by ancient

texts can also be treated by a vaidya, if he goes by dosha unbalance

and corresponding treatment. Most of modern tests can not dictate

what doshas are vitiated, according to the limited knowledge of this author. If

you have special insight on

interpretation of modern tests to suit dosha evaluation the group

will be happy to know, especially those who are using ayurvedic

approaches. This request comes as you have often supported modern

tests. Is it possible that a new set of guidelines have been formulated by

modern teachers as to what herb for what test " out of range " ?

 

Next, Author has seen that despite good

sugar management and control, patient suffers on other counts.

Visceral obesity brings in another angle, and while pancreas and insulin

resistance occupy maximum attention, the propogation to other endocrinal glands

such as thyroid, parathyroid and ovaries is paid less attention. If attention is

given, a new disease label results along with different treatments too! In

prediabetics, same management comes useful for PCOS patients. Microscopic views

miss whole view. If one wishes to know what is that fundamental cause which

drives so many glands to become disfunctional..one will have holistic

approach...leading to mother nature. Autoimmunity caused by neurotoxins, endo or

exotoxins can be a logical answer. But then the remedy lies not in herbs, but

modifying environment.

 

This is the aspect being emphasized even by some mainstream MDs, researchers and

yogis all together. Policy makers may be immune to all this, but sunrise is not

far, seeing the demand for organic herbs the world over, rising credibility of

home remedies and the size of crowd seeking advise on lifestyle changes, yoga

etc.

[Guest guest]

Excellent debate:

I am following this discussion very attentively right from the

beginning.....and I felt, this what makes ayurveda group way too

special from other ayurvedic groups that I know of.....Shirsh Bhate, Tood

and Dr. Mujumdar, all have contributed in giving newer dimensions to the

whole debate....am associated with Ayurveda only as an informed patient and

so, it would be out of authority for me to comment on the core issue. I

express my sincere thanks to Dr. Bhate, Todd and Dr. Mujumdar for steering

the discussion towards larger issues. What started with *Gestational

diabetes, covered almost every issue of concerned for those associated with

Ayurveda either as practitioners or patients. Waade Waade jayate tatwabodhaH

is true not only for those who debate, but also for those who follow the

debate. I would like to sign off with a note of caution though. When we

debate an issue, one must realize and accept that, his/her viewpoint is open

for revision or amendments. Thanks once again.*

Raj Phadke

Aashay TransLetters

5605 5769, 26452524

92234 55113

[Guest guest]

Dear Shirish,

I feel that you Todd and me are finally set to complete the topic of diabetes

for once and all, left incomplete by Dr. Venugopal. Well done.

Prameha is a group of 20 syndromes having polyuria and haziness in urine as

their prime symptoms. Out of the twenty, ten are predominantly of Kaphaja

variety, six are Pittaja and last four are Vataja.These Vataja types include

Madhumeha ie urine sweet like honey. This type is analogous to diabetes mellitus

of present times.

Madhumeha patients are of two types - 1) Obese and 2) Emaciated. Of these, the

obese once are basically non-insulin dependant(type 2) and the emaciated once

are insulin-dependant ones(type 1), according to modern outlook. These emaciated

types having much of Vata vitiation would become Asaadhya(non-curable) and

eventually land in complications , many times of terminal nature.

Madhumeha has total nine vitiants or dushyas - meda(fats), rakta(blood),

shukra(reproductive seeds with hormones included), ambu(cellular fluids), vasaa(

subcutaneous fats), laseeka(lymph), majja( nervous system), rasa(serum),

oja(immunty factors), pishita(muscle). In women, rasa rules the female

reproductive system.Rasa component also includes the modern endocrine and

hormone elements. The involvement of meda, mamsa and vasaa contributes to

obesity factor in diabetes. I think this answers your multiple axis involvement

from thyroid to immunity.

As you have agreeed in your mail that diabetes is multi-factorial and does not

always respond totally in spite of good sugar control, I would like to emphasise

here that precisely for the same reason any remedy, household or herb, should

not be suggested unless you know the total symptom manifest or investigative

reports. It can lead to other unwanted effects.

As far as your recommendation to discuss modern tests with relation to dosha

evaluation, it is not possible to discuss such issues on this general site. It

is discussed in professional and medical CMEs and seminars. I will need to take

classes of basic anatomy, physiology and pathology of medical calibre and then

only will the group be able to comprehend. So we leave this issue aside.

If any other of your points are unanswered due to over-sight, please do

reiterate them. I will be too glad to discuss.

 

Dr.D.B.Muzumdar

M.D. Ayurvedic Medicine (INDIA)

< dahpc >

 

 

__________

Your post touches several fundamental issues. When fundamental issues

are being discussed, it is better to get some doubts clarified.

 

There appears a lack of correspondence between the two. If we take

Prameha and diabetes this is glaringly evident. While ayurveda (you

may take samhitas here in a limited sense)defines twenty different

type of pramehas, with detailed classifications of symptoms, doshas

causing them and also treatments, we find modern science has only two

classifications in mind (Gestational is just another label)