Oils

[Guest guest]

ayurveda , " Noel Gilbert " <noel_glbrt

wrote:

>

> Hi Liz… A great teacher one said to me {and I never forgot it}, If

> you take all the oil and fat out of your diet, you lean towards

> cancer… but if you eat a lot of fat and oil, you lean towards

> cardiovascular disease… This makes a lot of sense from a Vata and

> Kapha point of view… The answer is to keep the good oils in your

> diet and exercise… Namasta …Noel…

 

In my opinion the subject of what fats and how many fats to eat is a

missing link in the mentality of many modern people. Some people try

to live without fats, this is not intelligent, the theory behind it is

totally wrong. Others live on foods full of trans fatty acids and

other damaged and disease causing oils. Just think about all of the

people who eat deep fried foods around the world. When traveling in

India I see men in the streets at all hours taking, samosa, vada,

pakora, etc. as their meal or snack, I cringe when seeing this. Just

as I do when I pass by a fast food chicken or hamburger restaurant.

The world is in a crisis of degenerative processes and it is mainly

these terrible disease causing foods that are causing it. In the case

of cardiovascular disease the issues are more complicated than just

bad oils, it is the general excess Pitta conditions that must be

looked at, sclerotic plaque is mainly an inflamatory process, the

question is why are so many people full of all this Pitta. This is

also related to diet. Combine poor over heating diet with the modern

stressful life style and we find the ordinary conditions of modern

life, most people are over heated and over stressed, barely able to

cope with the demands of their life. It is no wonder so many people

suffer from physical, mental, and spiritual degeneration.

 

The society is toxic and we are toxic, therefore we see people on

every side who are in big trouble. And as this relates to veg vs

nonveg, none are spared, both vegetarians and meateaters are horribly

sick, it does no good for the vegetarians to point their fingers at

the meat eaters, we have plenty of health conditions that we have to

deal with just like the meat eaters. In India and the rest of the

world a large percentage of vegetarian people that I meet have

diabetes and many other degenerative processses. The meat eaters (like

some on this list) make rediculous comments like vegetarians being

demyalated and simple minded, as though demyaltaion and simple

mindedness wasn't rampant in the meat eating population. This childish

way of looking at the health crisis of the world will not get us where

we want to go. I personally know many vegetarians who have achieved

the highest levels of health, but it is not common. Just as when I

look around at the meat eaters, I can not understand what these

aggressive overheated people think is so great or attractive about

their way of eating. Who wants to achieve that? Let the vegetarians

and the meat eaters both achieve the highest goals of their path and

leave the other side alone. Liz

[Guest guest]

Liz,

You have been writing some excellent messages. Thanks.

 

I want to dive into the issue of cooking oils a bit more from the

perspective of free radicals, lipid peroxides and heat. It is a fact

that cooking with highly polyunsaturated oils is a very bad practice,

as is reusing oils that have been heated. (I think you pointed this

out in a prior message, Liz.)

 

Ghee is good for cooking provided it isn't heated above about 325

degrees F and that it isn't heated too long or reused.

 

I believe that coconut and palm oil are also pretty good choices for

cooking, depending on one's body type.

 

However, scientists are starting to do some really good research now

on the detrimental changes in cooking oils at different temperatures

and different types of cooking. I've seen some comparisions of deep

frying, shallow frying, sauteeing, etc. for different oils. I've also

seen some good comparisons of refined vs. unrefined oils. (It's no

surprise that unrefined oils are much more stable -- and therefore

better.)

 

For me, the decision on the best cooking oils will come down to a

combination of Ayurvedic knowledge (what is best for one's body type)

and free radical chemistry. I want to find all the modern research on

different oils in different types of cooking where the scientists

measured lipid peroxides, free fatty acid content, free radicals and

other measures of oxidation/damage. If anyone can help, please send me

references to these research articles - the more the better.

 

Also, please feel free to share your thoughts on the best oils for

cooking. Maybe we could make a list of the best oils for each of the

10 body types. But in this list, let's limit it to best oils for

_cooking_. (There are some oils we can eat that are very good for

health, but they are terrible oils for cooking because they form

dangerous peroxides when heated.)

 

(In case anyone is interested, I cook almost exclusively with ghee and

I have a laser thermometer to ensure that I don't heat it much over

300 degrees F. Generally I only heat it for about 2 minutes - just

enough to sautee my spices.)

 

I'd love to hear what other people do.

 

Regards,

David

http://blog.freeradicalfederation.com/

 

 

--- " Liz A Hall " <lizahallny wrote:

> In my opinion the subject of what fats and how many fats to eat is a

> missing link in the mentality of many modern people. Some people try

> to live without fats, this is not intelligent, the theory behind it is

> totally wrong. <snip>

[Guest guest]

Hooray for you, Liz! Well said.

-

Liz A Hall

<snip> In my opinion the subject of what fats and how many fats to eat is a

missing link in the mentality of many modern people. Some people try

to live without fats, this is not intelligent, the theory behind it is

totally wrong. <snip>

[Guest guest]

i think we can safely say that while pitta plays a role in CVD, it

would be an oversimplification of the underlying pathology, even from

an ayurvedic perspective

 

the true underlying pathology in 98% of cases is the metabolic

syndrome x pattern, which encompasses everything from cognitive

problems to erectile dysfunction, from hypertension to diabetes, from

ischemic heart disease to PCOD

 

even if we just look at the atherosclerotic plaque, all three doshas

can be found to be aggravated, as kapha (the obstructive plaque),

pitta (the inflammatory factors), and vata (endothelial degeneration)

- a skilled therapist will be looking at all three components (and

more), and the relative balance of these factors, for example using

treatments to reduce blood viscosity (kapha), disperse heat (pitta)

and protect the endothelium and heart (vata)

 

i was lecturing last night and a student asked me about

constitution / prakrti - this was in the context of diet, actually,

and i began the lecture on the subject of ghee since someone asked

about it

 

if you all understand, ayurveda all about living according to dharma,

dharma in this case meaning the natural rhythm of the universe

 

here on earth, in our respective geographies and climates, it means

really listening and paying attention to the natural environment, of

getting our cues from the world around us, listening in turn to our

bodies and making those decisions that bring actual happiness and

satisfaction

 

western society has in large part become adharmic because it does not

observe this law - in fact, everything about our cultural tendency in

the west is about manipulating the universal flow so that it follows

the dictates of our mind, rather than our bodies - perhaps many you

can see the link between unbridled economic growth and cancer

 

what i mean by adharmic however, has nothing to do with religion or

religious acts - these things are not ayurveda

 

perhaps its my taoist influence speaking, but for me dharma is

understanding the continual shifting and change in the delicate

balance that forms the warp and weft of our lives - thus dharma isn't

a rulebook, its a higher awareness of how to understand and adapt to

the necessity of change

 

anyway, being a much better speaker than writer, i went on to discuss

that how in an adharmic society, the principles of ayurveda become

easily confused, something which is more than amply evidenced in the

west

 

instead of seeing the adharma, people try to understand vata-pitta-

kapha but see nothing except confusion, and changing symptoms

they use questionaires and the advice of 5 different vaidyas to

arrive at five different views of who they are

they follow lists of foods instead of listening to the environment

and their bodies that speak to them

they run across town to get the pitta reducing oil or go to yoga class

they move hither and thither, but no real movement takes place

towards truth, and thus confusions arises

 

non-toxic homes, natural wild foods, clean pure water, organic farm

foods, pure organic herbs - all these things were a given when the

texts of ayurved were compiled and written

 

now however, this is not the case, and major distortions have

occurred in our diet and lifestyle than cannot be seen clearly with

the lens of ayurveda until we return back to dharma, until we restore

the basic criteria of living healthfully and living in wisdom

 

so don't worry about your prakriti - live according to dharma, and

then ayurveda will whisper her secrets into your ear

 

the most important issue that is before ayurveda, is will it

promulgate a distorted vision of itself, based on narrow religious

interpretations, or will it function to truly serve, educate and

nourish the people? we will lose the rich and complete knowledge and

content ourselves with losing whole parts of this science because it

offends somebody's aesthetic?

 

i say that we return to dharma in order to practice of ayurveda -

until then concepts like prakriti are too confusing for most to

contemplate

 

 

best... todd caldecott

 

 

On 17-May-07, at 2:31 AM, ayurveda wrote:

 

> In my opinion the subject of what fats and how many fats to eat is a

> missing link in the mentality of many modern people. Some people try

> to live without fats, this is not intelligent, the theory behind it is

> totally wrong. <snip>

 

Caldecott

todd

www.toddcaldecott.com

[Guest guest]

> Re: Oils

>

> Posted by: " David " freeradicalfederation

> freeradicalfederation

>

> Wed May 16, 2007 8:43 pm (PST)

>

>

> Also, please feel free to share your thoughts on the best oils for

> cooking. Maybe we could make a list of the best oils for each of the

> 10 body types. But in this list, let's limit it to best oils for

> _cooking_. (There are some oils we can eat that are very good for

> health, but they are terrible oils for cooking because they form

> dangerous peroxides when heated.)

 

 

i dunno about these ten body types (or palm oil actually), but my

immediate impression is:

 

vata: olive, sesame, butter, ghee, coconut, lard

pitta: butter, ghee, coconut

kapha: olive, sesame

vata-kapha: olive, sesame, lard

vata-pitta: butter, ghee, coconut

kapha-pitta: olive, sesame, coconut

 

and from cold to hot: coconut, ghee, butter, olive, sesame, lard

 

and from heavy to light: lard, ghee, butter, coconut, olive, sesame

 

and from stability to instability: lard, ghee, coconut, olive,

sesame, butter

 

sesame oil (taila) has always interested me because the presence of

the heat-activated antioxidant sesamin - something apparently unique

for oils rich in PUFAs

 

 

 

>

> (In case anyone is interested, I cook almost exclusively with ghee and

> I have a laser thermometer to ensure that I don't heat it much over

> 300 degrees F. Generally I only heat it for about 2 minutes - just

> enough to sautee my spices.)

 

i think a good cook can tell when the fat is over-heated, most

obviously by smoking, but also the way it glides across the surface

of the pain, the changes in odor, etc etc

 

perhaps a laser thermometer will give you insight into developing

this instinct - or you can continue measuring, but cooking should

mostly be fun i figure

 

 

best... todd

Caldecott

todd

www.toddcaldecott.com

[Guest guest]

ayurveda , Todd Caldecott <todd wrote:

>

> i think we can safely say that while pitta plays a role in CVD, it

> would be an oversimplification of the underlying pathology, even from

> an ayurvedic perspective

>

> the true underlying pathology in 98% of cases is the metabolic

> syndrome x pattern, which encompasses everything from cognitive

> problems to erectile dysfunction, from hypertension to diabetes, from

> ischemic heart disease to PCOD

 

What is the role of Pitta and Ama in the development of the so called

Syndrome X? Syndromne X is nothing more than a syndrome that develops

as a result of the toxic conditions at the Insulin recepetor sites,

the liver, and the pancreas. These toxins are basically pathological

Pitta, excess sugar, and Ama. As these toxins accumulate the Vata

becomes deranged and the Kapha. But the core issue is acidic

conditions and mucus accumulations that develop as a result of poor

digestion, this is a basic concept in Ayurveda, and all natural

healing systems of the world, unconnected to Metabolic syndrome-X or philosophy

of Weston Price teachers.

 

The modern concept of Syndrome X is not new but many think it explains

everything, it clearly does not. Plus the cause of syndrome X is much more than

just excess

carbohydrates in the blood. There is no evidence that 98% of Cardiac

disease is caused by Syndrome X, it is simply a common, if not dominant

cofactor. Let us get back to the core issues. Where does all of this

begin? Denying the role of Pitta in the development of Cardiac disease

misses one of the important points. why would anyone want to deny

this?

 

Liz

[Guest guest]

Dear David

Every individual is unique. Not only oil but each input to body can

be tested to suit your constitution. Instead of carrying out so much

research on type of fats in different oils, their temperature

stability etc, it may be better to let body tell whether it finds the

oil helpful or not. In the form in which you normally take. This way

not only bad oil can be weeded out, but even bad cooking method can

be eliminated.

 

The tests for the food are described by this author at:

 

http://health.ayurveda/message/3055

 

http://health.ayurveda/message/4511

 

 

 

ayurveda , " David "

<freeradicalfederation wrote:

> I want to dive into the issue of cooking oils a bit more from the

> perspective of free radicals, lipid peroxides and heat. It is a fact

> that cooking with highly polyunsaturated oils is a very bad

practice,

> as is reusing oils that have been heated. (I think you pointed this

> out in a prior message, Liz.)

[Guest guest]

> Syndromne X is nothing more than a syndrome that develops

> as a result of the toxic conditions at the Insulin recepetor sites,

> the liver, and the pancreas.

 

hi liz

 

what are these toxic conditions? i appreciate being able to link

things up, but you are mixing your modalities without clarifying your

statements

for e.g., i can see the link between ama and antibodies very clearly,

but what do you mean precisely by " toxic conditions at the insulin

receptor sites " ? is this ayurveda?

 

from the science of it, insulin resistance appears to be a

fundamental " confusion " in the glucose transport control, causing

hyperinsulinemia

i think this is a viscious cycle relationship caused by the vata-

increasing property of white sugar and refined sweeteners that have

become so prevalent

sometmes i think we fail to appreciate that sugar is actually a mind-

altering drug

 

 

> These toxins are basically pathological

> Pitta, excess sugar, and Ama. As these toxins accumulate the Vata

> becomes deranged and the Kapha. But the core issue is acidic

> conditions and mucus accumulations that develop as a result of poor

> digestion, this is a basic concept in Ayurveda, and all natural

> healing systems of the world, unconnected to Metabolic syndrome-X

> or philosophy of Weston Price teachers.

 

i just want to clarify that his has nothing to do with the weston

price foundation - i am not a member

 

the concept of syn x was formulated by standford researcher dr.

gerald reaven and was identified before this by cardiologists who

drew the first tentative between factors such as obesity,

dyslipidemia, and ischemic heart disease simply observing the case

histories of their patients - metabolic syndrome has been a

revolution in understanding a multifaceted condition

 

to say that it has always been understood by traditional medical

systems is a big stretch because this condition is a recent epidemic

your dismissive statement also suggests that no new knowledge or

breakthroughs can exist in our understanding that can help re-

orientate more traditional approaches, or that ayurveda itself must

undergo change and growth, not in its core principles, but its

application

 

for years i worked with patients that had this (unidentified) issue

(i.e. obesity and hypertension), and employed the typical high

complex carb whole-food vegetarian-style diet, working on " cleansing "

the blood and liver as well as enhancing digestion, all of it based

on the predominant philosophy in natural healing circles and western

ayurveda that this is a pitta or pitta-kapha disease, but i never got

significant and sustainable results until i radically shifted my

approach to accommodate the thinking around syn x

 

if pitta is the dominant factor in syn x, what is causing it to

become aggravated first?

sweet is the taste which most reduces pitta, and yet excess sweet is

the cause - how is pitta the dominant dosha?

 

further, where are the symptoms of pitta excess in the prodromal

state? mostly all you see is truncal abdominal obesity - there are

no symptoms of burning sensation or heat in most cases - usually,

what i see are more kapha symptoms, including lethargy and poor

circulation, or vattaja symptoms such as cognitive problems and

depression; often we see bad digestion, such as reflux, but this is

usually the result of having a tummy that increases intra-abdominal

pressure rather than excess pachaka pitta - people who see this as

just pitta miss the point entirely, and esp. so among many ayurvedic

physicians that have big tummies and incipient diabetes because they

live in the fantasy world that sugar is somehow " sattvic "

 

clearly kapha is the first at play (hyperglycemia) in the syn x

pattern, but the high sugars derange vata and the mechanisms of

insulin response

pitta comes into play with the tissue damage mediated by

hyperglycemia and the compensatory hyperinsulinemia

 

this is why a lifestyle regimen that reduces kapha through lifestyle,

but vata through diet end up working much more effectively than any

other approach

i consider the management of pitta is a very important secondary

consideration, mostly in improving the constitution of the blood,

liver metabolism and reducing the inflammation cause by stagnation

and nutrient (antioxidant) deficiencies

 

> becomes deranged and the Kapha. But the core issue is acidic

> conditions and mucus accumulations that develop as a result of poor

> digestion, this is a basic concept in Ayurveda, and all natural

 

" acidic " is not an ayurvedic concept, and what is usually termed an

" acidic " diet, i.e. high protein/fat diet ends up being curative -

can you explain this?

 

also, all the digestive-enhancing remedies in the world don't

directly address this issue

its not an issue of bad digestion per se, but what is going into the

system

of course digestion is the root of health so in any condition we are

going to pay attention

 

i would enhance agni if the indications presented themselves: poor

appetite, indigestion, poor bowel habits, a thick coating on the

tongue, etc etc, but otherwise it would not be an over-riding

consideration more than any other disease

 

 

> Plus the cause of syndrome X is much more than just excess

> carbohydrates in the blood. There is no evidence that 98% of Cardiac

> disease is caused by Syndrome X, it is simply a common, if not

> dominant

> cofactor.

 

sure, let's call it a dominant cofactor - i'm fine with this

its a dominant factor like the hammer you keep hitting your head with

may not kill you, but the stairs you fall down when you finally pass

out will

but all things being equal, if you stop the hitting your head, you

very likely won't fall down the stairs - maybe you might have 2%

chance of injury otherwise, just in your normal movement up and down

the stairs...

 

so, the idea is that if we address syn x we get the core issue and

heart disease does not arise

but it doesn't mean that other bad things won't happen

 

have you actually looked at reaven's work or read his book? - his

entire thesis is very much put forward as he major underlying cause

of heart disease, and the treatment has the capacity to make lasting

and permanent shifts in CV health - so your critique of me is really

a critique of his research

 

i am curious liz, what is your clinical experience with this? i ask

this, because time and again i have seen the benefits of this

relatively simple intervention of a low carb diet, supplementing for

nutrient deficiencies, and muscle-building exercise, and in as little

as 3 months i have seen a complete reversal of truncal-abdominal

obesity, and a normalization of blood pressure and blood lipids

 

 

> Let us get back to the core issues. Where does all of this

> begin? Denying the role of Pitta in the development of Cardiac disease

> misses one of the important points. why would anyone want to deny

> this?

 

you argument is just a reiteration of your perspective, but not an

actual explanation - please see the above

i am not " denying " that pitta has a role - i suspect that you are

just skimming through what i'm writing and not actually comprehending

what i am saying

 

Caldecott

todd

www.toddcaldecott.com