Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Hi. I have just began a TCM protocol with a Doctor that is both a Naturopath and a Chinese doctor. His diagnosis is pretty much similar to what I have read here. He says that my liver and my digestion are working too hard (not a good thing) and my heart is deficient. I have had one acupuncture treatment so far and felt a difference in my emotions right away. An interesting thing that he noted to me was that the liver has to do with emotions such as anger, anxiety and fear and that I have too much of these emotions (amazingly which is true - I have been experiencing a lot of pent up feelings lately without reason!). Other than the acupuncture treatments he has put me on a regiment of chinese herbs for five days - that I have to boil for an hour and drink everyday - which I must mention are seriously vile tasting, hopefully they will help me. He also suggested watching comedy shows and listening to Latin music and to avoid music with lots of drums (this will help to increase happy emotions for balance. Very simple straight forward advice. I am wondering if any of you have been experiencing these pent up emotions? I will let you know how it goes. I am still breastfeeding my baby and am unable to do any serious cleansing, but I am looking forward to trying out these protocols. I know that I am in serious need of a liver and gallbladder cleanse. I was also thinking that my Rosacea also has something to do with the MANY mercury amalgam fillings in my teeth. I already have an appointment with a biocompatible Dentist to remove these and replace with porcelain fillings instead. This would be a great time to cleanse. I believe that these are the only answers. Cleansing and liver support with proper intake of good foods. I have tried all kinds of other nutritional approaches - HCl before my meals, lots of antioxidants, water, EFA's (fish oils) - and nothing has helped me yet. I am getting to the point where I hate going out in public and enjoying life. This is an awful way to live and I have even gotten to desperate points where I question if I could live like this for the rest of my life. I truly am living in fear. I can't wait to hear if the cleanses will help people. I have a lot of hope. What else is there? Thanks for listening. Jools Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2004 Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 Hi Naomi, You end your post with a call to education which I readily support. I'm currently rereading and digging into Oxford University professor Dr. Vivienne Lo's contribution to Dr. Elizabeth Hsu's " Innovation in " . No doubt a scholar like you has read this and made it her own. Dr. Lo's topic sentence in the 2nd paragraph of her contribution reads this way. " Evidence from Mawangdui has filled gaps in our knowledge of the relationship of spirit mediums or shamans and their magical practices and incantations to early Chinese medicine. " She goes on in the most scholarly manner to describe how modern " TCM " is and is not related to Chinese medicine's origins in the metaphysical language of earlier writing. My own observation of modern China's TCM is that it often celebrates and bows to Western science and Western medicine. Truly this is a worthy gesture of an enlightened master that is unfortunately not returned by the recipient of that gesture. The modern Chinese government has, it seems, intentionally made TCM a very small system of Chinese medicine. Since you call for us to honor modern TCM and also call for us to educate ourselves, may we then study sufficiently and broadly enough to see if there is actually a relationship between " TCM " and traditional Chinese medicine? I am not so educated as you and many others here in Chinese medicine, so please forgive the above naive question. Also in my naiveté I notice that the practitioners of greatest merit that I know are trained in both modern TCM as well as through their lineages. Many of my teachers in Chinese medicine point to such people as becoming more and more rare ... and that I should spend as much time as possible with them. I'm lucky to know and study with the former chief of TCM of Shanghai Hospital #1. His lineage training greatly enriches his practice I've noticed. I share your view that various systems are quite limited, but I would not call a point of order to have them dismissed from our discussion ... especially just to focus solely on what the current Chinese government would have us focus on. I personally would love to hear more about each system to see how they might reveal some insight in to our more central focus. I'm also enjoying the lively debate from some of our most esteemed colleagues regarding what is " hearsay " and what is a true part of oral (or lineage) traditions. It's so easy to click the delete button for what's not of interest. Thus, we can censor for ourselves and let others read on. I also must bow to Attilio as the one who must make the final decisions as to " what is on topic and what is off topic. " Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen P.S. There's a local daoist master (Liu Ming) in my area who often gives teachings from " texts that have never been published " . I can't tell you how much I love that expression. Chinese Medicine , " nrgelp " <nrgelp> wrote: > Hi all, > > With all of this discussion about dragons and posessions I sit here > asking myself, " Which group did I join? " . The name of this group is > Traditional . The Worsley Five Element practice does > not fall under that heading. > > The Worsley Five Element practice is a CONSTITUTIONAL theory, like > the SASANG theory that is practiced in Korea. It is a theory unto > itself that can not be combined with the theories of TCM. It does > not use herbs in its practice and it has very specific ways of > analyzing people, which are completely different from TCM. Really > the only similarity between TCM and Five Element Constiutional > practices are the use of acupuncture needles, the point locations > and the four needle technique. > > We need to be clear about the definition of our own practice if we > expect others to gain any kind of understanding about what we do. We > need to be clear if we hope to educate the public so that they can > make good decisions about their health. > > It is our responsibility to have a marked degree of understanding > and clarity about our use of terms that describe the medicine we > practice. > > Please take time to understand what you do. If we hope to gain a > degree of acceptance and respect in this Western society, we need to > educate ourselves. > > Naomi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2004 Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 Since you call for us to honor modern TCM and also call for us to educate ourselves, may we then study sufficiently and broadly enough to see if there is actually a relationship between " TCM " and traditional Chinese medicine? I said nothing of this and do not have any kind of hold over what you study? I'm not sure what your point is. Are you implying that the Worsley Five Element school is more in line with traditional than TCM?? I am not so educated as you.... Please..... Also in my naiveté I notice that the practitioners of greatest merit that I know are trained in both modern TCM as well as through their lineages. I agree. Many of my teachers in Chinese medicine point to such people as becoming more and more rare ... and that I should spend as much time as possible with them. I'm lucky to know and study with the former chief of TCM of Shanghai Hospital #1. His lineage training greatly enriches his practice I've noticed. I'm very glad for you that you have that opportunity. I share your view that various systems are quite limited, Actually, I use the Sasang (Korean constitutional medicine) as my primary method of patient analysis and herbal prescription. I did not state that these forms of medicine were limited. I said that they were encapsulated theories. They were entities unto themselves. They are not a part of TCM or traditional Chinese medicine. They are more modern theories. I did not say that they were any less useful. I simply said that it is important that we get our terminology together if we want anyone else to know what we are talking about. " I personally would love to hear more about each system to see how they might reveal some insight in to our more central focus. " What is your central focus? I am talking about a linguistic clarity. A central language. ciao, Naomi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2004 Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 Chinese Medicine , Naomi Gelperin <nrgelp> wrote: > > > Since you call for us to honor modern TCM and also call for us to educate ourselves, may we then study sufficiently and broadly enough to see if there is actually a relationship between " TCM " and traditional Chinese medicine? It is interesting because the more that I read pre-modern texts and case studies the more I realize that TCM is not that much different than previous centuries medicine. Or should I say that the herbal modern TCM approach is built up very firmly from past ideas. Acupuncture may be a different story. Did anyone hear see Sionou's PCOM lecture a couple of years ago on emotional qualities of points? If so could they elaborate on what he said… - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2004 Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 Hello, Naomi Chinese Medicine , Naomi Gelperin <nrgelp> wrote: > > What is your central focus? I am talking about a linguistic clarity. A central language. > Funny, it sounded to me (and apparently Emmanuel as well) that you were chastising the discussion group for off-topic posts. That makes two listmembers who seemed to have missed the point of your message. Clarity begins at home, so to speak. A couple of comments from the original post: <<With all of this discussion about dragons and posessions I sit here asking myself, " Which group did I join? " . The name of this group is Traditional . The Worsley Five Element practice does not fall under that heading.>> Your opening salvo. <<We need to be clear about the definition of our own practice if we expect others to gain any kind of understanding about what we do. We need to be clear if we hope to educate the public so that they can make good decisions about their health.>> I somehow find it hard to believe that anyone would think 5E practitioners think they're practicing TCM. You yourself seem to be quite clear on the parameters of Sasang vs TCM therapy. My feeling is that the diversity of styles in the West is here to stay, and with the diversity of styles comes a diversity of term sets, inconvenient as that may be. That is one reason why forums such as this are valuable -- they allow a variety of voices to be heard and encourage communication among the profession. Listening to each other is an absolutely necessary first step in the education which you so admirably encourage. IIRC you only recently joined this group... if you have a look through the archives you'll find 5E (and various East Asian styles including Korean practices) has not been regarded as off-topic despite the discussion group name. On the other hand, after a decade of involvement in the profession, I am convinced that the public basically doesn't care much about our intramural squabbles and term sets and hairsplitting. Most of them have no need for jargon or history lessons. They want something that works reliably and safely. <<Please take time to understand what you do. If we hope to gain a degree of acceptance and respect in this Western society, we need to educate ourselves.>> So true, and I would add that I regard learning more about what people actually do in clinical settings as an important part of that education. I too want to know where ideas and techniques originate, but if the origin is lost I still want to understand the technique to decide for myself whether or not there is any merit in it -- regardless of its stylistic moniker. Welcome to the list, BTW. I have a keen interest in pediatrics and look forward to your input on the subject if and when the occasion arises. robert hayden http://jabinet.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2004 Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 i have those notes from weekend seminar in nyc--can contact me offlist or on. my computer's in the shop until july 8, so after then please. thanks, roseanne s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2004 Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 > Jason, I am trying to find the notes from those lectures for someone, I'll try to follow up with you as well on these. > > Did anyone hear see Sionou's PCOM lecture a couple of years ago on > emotional qualities of points? If so could they elaborate on what he > said… > > - Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being > delivered. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 Emmanuel Segmen: > Since you call for us to honour modern TCM and also call for us to educate ourselves, may we then study sufficiently and broadly enough to see if there is actually a relationship between " TCM " and traditional Chinese medicine? Marco: Can be a useful topic if clarity is brought forward as to why do it in the first place? Emmanuel Segmen: > Also in my naiveté I notice that the practitioners of greatest merit that I know are trained in both modern TCM as well as through their lineages. Many of my teachers in Chinese medicine point to such people as becoming more and more rare ... and that I should spend as much time as possible with them. I'm lucky to know and study with the former chief of TCM of Shanghai Hospital #1. His lineage training greatly enriches his practice I've noticed. Marco: How can we promote this type of knowledge i.e. lineage knowing as well as institutional schooling? Emmanuel Segmen > > P.S. There's a local daoist master (Liu Ming) in my area who often gives teachings from " texts that have never been published " . I can't tell you how much I love that expression. Marco what about the texts that never been written? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 I think we are overlooking the fact that TCM training in China relies heavily on western medicine. In fact, there is a propensity of this that overshadows practitioner development. When we mention TCM it makes me wonder what we are thinking. Are we interested in the integrated CM/WM that we now see in China or are we interested in a more limited Classical CM? Neither is wrong. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Marco Bergh <bergh >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Re: Traditional >Sat, 11 Dec 2004 21:05:52 -0600 > > >Emmanuel Segmen: > > > Since you call for us to honour modern TCM and also call for us to >educate >ourselves, may we then study sufficiently and broadly enough to see if >there >is actually a relationship between " TCM " and traditional Chinese medicine? > >Marco: >Can be a useful topic if clarity is brought forward as to why do it in the >first place? > > > Emmanuel Segmen: > > Also in my naiveté I notice that the practitioners of greatest merit >that >I know are trained in both modern TCM as well as through their lineages. >Many of my teachers in Chinese medicine point to such people as becoming >more and more rare ... and that I should spend as much time as possible >with >them. I'm lucky to know and study with the former chief of TCM of Shanghai >Hospital #1. His lineage training greatly enriches his practice I've >noticed. > >Marco: >How can we promote this type of knowledge i.e. lineage knowing as well as >institutional schooling? >Emmanuel Segmen > > > > P.S. There's a local daoist master (Liu Ming) in my area who often gives >teachings from " texts that have never been published " . I can't tell you >how much I love that expression. > >Marco what about the texts that never been written? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Classical CM for me. Good points (no pun intended.) Anne mike Bowser wrote: >I think we are overlooking the fact that TCM training in China relies >heavily on western medicine. In fact, there is a propensity of this that >overshadows practitioner development. When we mention TCM it makes me >wonder what we are thinking. Are we interested in the integrated CM/WM that >we now see in China or are we interested in a more limited Classical CM? >Neither is wrong. Later >Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > > >>Marco Bergh <bergh >>Chinese Medicine >>Chinese Medicine >>Re: Re: Traditional >>Sat, 11 Dec 2004 21:05:52 -0600 >> >> >>Emmanuel Segmen: >> >> >> >>>Since you call for us to honour modern TCM and also call for us to >>> >>> >>educate >>ourselves, may we then study sufficiently and broadly enough to see if >>there >>is actually a relationship between " TCM " and traditional Chinese medicine? >> >>Marco: >>Can be a useful topic if clarity is brought forward as to why do it in the >>first place? >> >> >> Emmanuel Segmen: >> >> >>>Also in my naiveté I notice that the practitioners of greatest merit >>> >>> >>that >>I know are trained in both modern TCM as well as through their lineages. >>Many of my teachers in Chinese medicine point to such people as becoming >>more and more rare ... and that I should spend as much time as possible >>with >>them. I'm lucky to know and study with the former chief of TCM of Shanghai >>Hospital #1. His lineage training greatly enriches his practice I've >>noticed. >> >>Marco: >>How can we promote this type of knowledge i.e. lineage knowing as well as >>institutional schooling? >>Emmanuel Segmen >> >> >>>P.S. There's a local daoist master (Liu Ming) in my area who often gives >>> >>> >>teachings from " texts that have never been published " . I can't tell you >>how much I love that expression. >> >>Marco what about the texts that never been written? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 At 09:36 PM 12/12/04 +0000, " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 wrote: >...Are we interested in the integrated CM/WM that >we now see in China or are we interested in a more limited Classical CM? What do mean by " more limited " here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Legally limited only to CCM as opposed to a more inclusive WM/TCM integrative medicine. While we tend to take it for granted much of what TCM today is practicing a rather wide scope of practice. Later Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > < >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine > Re: Traditional >Sun, 12 Dec 2004 20:43:52 -0800 > > >At 09:36 PM 12/12/04 +0000, " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > >...Are we interested in the integrated CM/WM that >we now see in China or >are we interested in a more limited Classical CM? > >What do mean by " more limited " here? > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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