Guest guest Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 See the link ayurveda/message/7833 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Dr. Bhate: These is some amazing research out there about how the primal period is when our GENES are activated to respond to a particular enviornment -- the one we were gestated in. THe best in the primal research, prenatal progrmamming --- Michel Odent,MD www.http://www.wombecology.com/obesity.html and his book, " Primal Health " and works by Peter Nathaneilsz, PhD.(vet) MD (OB) " Life Before Birth and a Time to Be Born: The Challenges of Fetal Development " , and " ife in the Womb: The Origin of Health and Disease " . " Prental Prescription " was written to condense the information for mothers. The other two are richer reads of detailed (stil easy though) science. Nathanielsz talks about the adrenal stress axis that is established in utero -- relates prenatal period to adult diabetes, stroke, and cardiac issues. I highly recommend them both. Nathanielsz looks at the war induced Dutch famine in World War II -- researchers looked at the cause of death of the male adults based on when during the short famine their mother's were starved during their prenatal development. Primal Health and Life in the Womb are two important resources for me. ayurveda , " Shirish Bhate " <shirishbhate wrote: > > A special discussion on post-partum obesity, post menopause obesity as > well as teenager obesity at > > http://health.ayurveda/message/7833 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Link to Nathanielsz http://www.cpnr.org/people/nathanielsz/index.php?gid=1 ayurveda , " Shirish Bhate " <shirishbhate wrote: > > A special discussion on post-partum obesity, post menopause obesity as > well as teenager obesity at > > http://health.ayurveda/message/7833 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2006 Report Share Posted September 19, 2006 Dear Janel Tons of thanks for the amazing and exciting source of all knowledge, which one would have thought " occult " in last century. But as we progress to understand ourselves better through the path of spirituality, we also start communicating with all matter, whether coming under biological scinece or physics. Science is not yet suficiently developed to understand anything about thought waves falling outside " visual spectrum " or " audio-range " frequencies. Indian sage have long back stated that mothers thoughts, frustrations, joys affects babies, baby being almost a part of her own brain. and now science knows EEG waves which depend on state of mind. The mystery is slowly being unravelled for science, but holistic sciences have known everything long back. understanding the same from the science " spectacles " is a new and thrilling experience. Peter Nathaneilsz gives expressions to some thoughts author had in mind for a long time. Thanks for sharing the book and links. ayurveda , " Janel Martin-Miranda " <janel_miranda wrote: Link to Nathanielsz http://www.cpnr.org/people/nathanielsz/index.php?gid=1 > > Dr. Bhate: > > These is some amazing research out there about how the primal period > is when our GENES are activated to respond to a particular > enviornment -- the one we were gestated in. THe best in the primal > research, prenatal progrmamming --- Michel Odent,MD > www.http://www.wombecology.com/obesity.html and his book, " Primal > Health " and works by Peter Nathaneilsz, PhD.(vet) MD (OB) " Life > Before Birth and a Time to Be Born: The Challenges of Fetal > Development " , and " ife in the Womb: The Origin of Health and > Disease " . " Prental Prescription " was written to condense the > information for mothers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2006 Report Share Posted September 19, 2006 You are very welcome, Dr. Bhate -- It's always wonderful to correspond with others who are exploring this. Odent and Nathanielsz books are my absolute favorites -- I carry one with me always. I just open and read now. Still trying to integrate all of the information. I believe that preconception through early infancy are when we are built and what one has to live with throughout the life. What on earth could be more important?? Humans SEEM to know this and yet turn away from it -- in our busy, stressful world of gathering resources. The ability of the human denial system is amazing to me --- I am to the point of: there is no need for " science " proof when it is so & ^*()$% logical. I mean, really!?!?! how could prenatal period not be seen as just absolutely critical to health and harmony in any society?? Native people know this!! From welcoming into the union at conception, to nutrition, to welcoming into the community at birth. One feels the truth within their own body -- I think it is THE reason for " mother's guilt " -- when our child has an issue, something within us knows how true and profound it is that we built that body, how little support we really had/have for mothering. My mother was a hairdresser throughout my gestation in the mid fifties -- perms, hair dyes, everyone around her smoking. And, she was nutrition conscious and healthy. I was wanted -- and was going to " make this family happy " . It's all a balancing act. What if humanity began to consider the utter importance of care of the gestating baby and put our resources there?? On the one hand, medicine says the prenatal period is so critical and hands down many mandates, but then our society somehow ignores and accepts and pays for and allows such terrible care of gestating babies -- by women and doctors. Wounded humanity -- it is the price we pay for our wonderful, personal freedom of choice and free will we free socities have. HOW could the prenatal period NOT be so critical and specific?? I mean, why all the fuss in medicine, if it doesn't matter? Humans wish to pick and choose what is important, when it suits them. I believe we need to look at the baby's rights, not just the adult's rights. With women and doctors --- everything that medicine says to do during prenatal period goes out the window duing hospital labor and birth. My article on this is at http://www.babykeeper.blogspot.com/ Here's an example of the crazy, bi-polar duality of science translated to the care of the gestating human. My young, single neighbor is having her baby in two weeks -- induced because she must have a cardiologist there and that is the only time HE can be there. She has a serious childhood heart issue --- and they say she should not have gotten pregnant and TOLD her she has a 50/50 chance of dying during birth. She was extremely upset, as one would imagine. She made arrangements for baby's care if she dies, but says, " NO WAY. " They are telling her that inducing is safer because THEY can control the contractions and with epidural it will be easier for her to not push!! THE SCIENCE SHOWS this is just not true, in fact the opposite is true. Inducing creates near tetanus (prolonged) contractions with no break for the uterus -- THIS is hard on a woman's body. Problems with a woman's blood pressure and cardiac output with inducing/epidural is documented in the literature in the early 90's. And, today they get by with it -- in the name of science -- for their needs and schedules, even for an extremely high- risk pregnancy. EVERY word spoken to a woman, especially ABOUT her baby will AFFECT that being. This poor baby knows stress, fear, death --- his little third trimester brain knows it. What I know in my work is that we can communicate with the baby NOW and prepare him, help her during labor to stay in communication. What is amazing to me is that there is no referral to someone like me for support during the birth, and certainly, after the birth, she will be on her own, unless she (any woman) is fortunate enough to have someone like the postpartum doulas here. You would probably also appreciate my friend's work, at www.pnri.net and www.applied-neurobiology.com. He has developed a technique for healing the prenatal experiences --- I have incorporated into the prenatal and birth trauma healing work I do from www.castellinotrainig.com. We know that the prental lens of perception will determine how the BABY perceives the birth experience (ie., inducing, drugs, lack of privacy, control) according to what he experienced in the womb. This is critical for the post-partum care as well. We never know the real experience of the woman and the baby from preconception to birth and it is all there in the postpartum period. Janel www.InfantParentHealing.com www.babykeeper.blogspot.com ayurveda , " Shirish Bhate " <shirishbhate wrote: > > Dear Janel > > Tons of thanks for the amazing and exciting source of all knowledge, > which one would have thought " occult " in last century. But as we > progress to understand ourselves better through the path of > spirituality, we also start communicating with all matter, whether > coming under biological scinece or physics. Science is not yet > suficiently developed to understand anything about thought waves > falling outside " visual spectrum " or " audio-range " frequencies. > Indian sage have long back stated that mothers thoughts, > frustrations, joys affects babies, baby being almost a part of her > own brain. and now science knows EEG waves which depend on state of > mind. > > The mystery is slowly being unravelled for science, but holistic > sciences have known everything long back. understanding the same from > the science " spectacles " is a new and thrilling experience. > > Peter Nathaneilsz gives expressions to some thoughts author had in > mind for a long time. Thanks for sharing the book and links. > > > ayurveda , " Janel Martin-Miranda " > <janel_miranda@> wrote: > Link to Nathanielsz > http://www.cpnr.org/people/nathanielsz/index.php?gid=1 > > > > > Dr. Bhate: > > > > These is some amazing research out there about how the primal > period > > is when our GENES are activated to respond to a particular > > enviornment -- the one we were gestated in. THe best in the primal > > research, prenatal progrmamming --- Michel Odent,MD > > www.http://www.wombecology.com/obesity.html and his book, " Primal > > Health " and works by Peter Nathaneilsz, PhD.(vet) MD (OB) " Life > > Before Birth and a Time to Be Born: The Challenges of Fetal > > Development " , and " ife in the Womb: The Origin of Health and > > Disease " . " Prental Prescription " was written to condense the > > information for mothers. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2006 Report Share Posted September 20, 2006 Janel, yes we all know better and we all have intuitions but when it comes down to medical practice, the doctors (who also know better), go into liability mode and only do what their science has documented and that they can quote for the charts to show in court as having followed some accepted protocol. Only the mothers can change this by insisting on only going to hospitals that treat them and their babies better. But they are raised in a fear-based world as well, fear induced by drs. warnings and ultimatums, based on their own fear of litigation. Everyone knows better in their heart of hearts but in our culture it is not to be considered until it is proven and documented scientifically all the new drs. are trained and the old drs. are won over and it all takes years and years to come about. Vicky vicky york Lactation consultant, postpartum doula postpartum care services . Oregon vmyork Work : 5412556368 Review me at iKarma Want to spread your own reputation? - Janel Martin-Miranda ayurveda Tuesday, September 19, 2006 8:22 AM PerinatalAyurveda forum Re: Tackling obesity You are very welcome, Dr. Bhate -- It's always wonderful to correspond with others who are exploring this. Odent and Nathanielsz books are my absolute favorites -- I carry one with me always. I just open and read now. Still trying to integrate all of the information. I believe that preconception through early infancy are when we are built and what one has to live with throughout the life. What on earth could be more important?? Humans SEEM to know this and yet turn away from it -- in our busy, stressful world of gathering resources. The ability of the human denial system is amazing to me --- I am to the point of: there is no need for " science " proof when it is so & ^*()$% logical. I mean, really!?!?! how could prenatal period not be seen as just absolutely critical to health and harmony in any society?? Native people know this!! From welcoming into the union at conception, to nutrition, to welcoming into the community at birth. One feels the truth within their own body -- I think it is THE reason for " mother's guilt " -- when our child has an issue, something within us knows how true and profound it is that we built that body, how little support we really had/have for mothering. My mother was a hairdresser throughout my gestation in the mid fifties -- perms, hair dyes, everyone around her smoking. And, she was nutrition conscious and healthy. I was wanted -- and was going to " make this family happy " . It's all a balancing act. What if humanity began to consider the utter importance of care of the gestating baby and put our resources there?? On the one hand, medicine says the prenatal period is so critical and hands down many mandates, but then our society somehow ignores and accepts and pays for and allows such terrible care of gestating babies -- by women and doctors. Wounded humanity -- it is the price we pay for our wonderful, personal freedom of choice and free will we free socities have. HOW could the prenatal period NOT be so critical and specific?? I mean, why all the fuss in medicine, if it doesn't matter? Humans wish to pick and choose what is important, when it suits them. I believe we need to look at the baby's rights, not just the adult's rights. With women and doctors --- everything that medicine says to do during prenatal period goes out the window duing hospital labor and birth. My article on this is at http://www.babykeeper.blogspot.com/ Here's an example of the crazy, bi-polar duality of science translated to the care of the gestating human. My young, single neighbor is having her baby in two weeks -- induced because she must have a cardiologist there and that is the only time HE can be there. She has a serious childhood heart issue --- and they say she should not have gotten pregnant and TOLD her she has a 50/50 chance of dying during birth. She was extremely upset, as one would imagine. She made arrangements for baby's care if she dies, but says, " NO WAY. " They are telling her that inducing is safer because THEY can control the contractions and with epidural it will be easier for her to not push!! THE SCIENCE SHOWS this is just not true, in fact the opposite is true. Inducing creates near tetanus (prolonged) contractions with no break for the uterus -- THIS is hard on a woman's body. Problems with a woman's blood pressure and cardiac output with inducing/epidural is documented in the literature in the early 90's. And, today they get by with it -- in the name of science -- for their needs and schedules, even for an extremely high- risk pregnancy. EVERY word spoken to a woman, especially ABOUT her baby will AFFECT that being. This poor baby knows stress, fear, death --- his little third trimester brain knows it. What I know in my work is that we can communicate with the baby NOW and prepare him, help her during labor to stay in communication. What is amazing to me is that there is no referral to someone like me for support during the birth, and certainly, after the birth, she will be on her own, unless she (any woman) is fortunate enough to have someone like the postpartum doulas here. You would probably also appreciate my friend's work, at www.pnri.net and www.applied-neurobiology.com. He has developed a technique for healing the prenatal experiences --- I have incorporated into the prenatal and birth trauma healing work I do from www.castellinotrainig.com. We know that the prental lens of perception will determine how the BABY perceives the birth experience (ie., inducing, drugs, lack of privacy, control) according to what he experienced in the womb. This is critical for the post-partum care as well. We never know the real experience of the woman and the baby from preconception to birth and it is all there in the postpartum period. Janel www.InfantParentHealing.com www.babykeeper.blogspot.com ayurveda , " Shirish Bhate " <shirishbhate wrote: > > Dear Janel > > Tons of thanks for the amazing and exciting source of all knowledge, > which one would have thought " occult " in last century. But as we > progress to understand ourselves better through the path of > spirituality, we also start communicating with all matter, whether > coming under biological scinece or physics. Science is not yet > suficiently developed to understand anything about thought waves > falling outside " visual spectrum " or " audio-range " frequencies. > Indian sage have long back stated that mothers thoughts, > frustrations, joys affects babies, baby being almost a part of her > own brain. and now science knows EEG waves which depend on state of > mind. > > The mystery is slowly being unravelled for science, but holistic > sciences have known everything long back. understanding the same from > the science " spectacles " is a new and thrilling experience. > > Peter Nathaneilsz gives expressions to some thoughts author had in > mind for a long time. Thanks for sharing the book and links. > > > ayurveda , " Janel Martin-Miranda " > <janel_miranda@> wrote: > Link to Nathanielsz > http://www.cpnr.org/people/nathanielsz/index.php?gid=1 > > > > > Dr. Bhate: > > > > These is some amazing research out there about how the primal > period > > is when our GENES are activated to respond to a particular > > enviornment -- the one we were gestated in. THe best in the primal > > research, prenatal progrmamming --- Michel Odent,MD > > www.http://www.wombecology.com/obesity.html and his book, " Primal > > Health " and works by Peter Nathaneilsz, PhD.(vet) MD (OB) " Life > > Before Birth and a Time to Be Born: The Challenges of Fetal > > Development " , and " ife in the Womb: The Origin of Health and > > Disease " . " Prental Prescription " was written to condense the > > information for mothers. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2006 Report Share Posted September 20, 2006 Hi, Vicky -- I am right there with ya -- and this is my thing!!! I have written tons on this in preparation for when it is time. I am pretty passionate about this --- so my tone below is not for you, it is my passion, more of an open letter. I am not sure we all know better (women or doctors or midwives) because it just keeps going on and on -- in the name of science, safety, and pain relief. This is a huge social issue -- how we treat women in our culture, and how soceity (doesn't) value motherhood, babies and children, (focus on motherhood, caring for children, homeschooling, homebirth, rather than on career and sustaining the system, is still not generally accepted), and how we love our freedom but do not take responsibilty in this litigous society. (Forgive me, my baby boy (age 23) has been deployed to Iraq and I am on a tear about the cost of freedom and the need for responsibility and sacrifice of all Americans). Our culture champions ending the domination of women in Afganastan, but supports - by denial of the truth -- the violation of American women in birth. This birth thing is bigger than the vote -- a woman's right to choice in birth. Direct me to ONE hospital that treats the mother and baby well, where a mother can be assured and confident of her care. I was at a birth in a small MO town in July that restored my belief in the possibilities -- great doctor, nurses, and awesome team work. STILL ended in cesearan of a healthy baby and pregnancy. ( " Failure to progress " past seven cm = mother/child/father issues - more below.) Not even here at the local birth center is it the the case that a mother can be sure she'll birth naturally and peacefully. Her chance is pretty high, but still dependent on the status that day or week of her midwife and physican's life (chaotic). It doesn't happen in hospitals. Many staff and their energy from their lives mix in with the laboring mother and baby's. There are no consistent protocols -- the drugs used have NEVER been researched to show they are safe to use on women and birthing baby, and are used anyway when shown to have severe consequences (ie, epidural). When a woman goes to the hospital, she is at the mercy of the Hospital protocols, the individual doctor's way, and the nurse's way. A woman is blessed if by chance she happens to get a nurse who is ok with natural birth (doctors and nurses are not trained to believe the body works or that the baby is a soul coming into the world and fully present). I attend births -- the doctor is rarely there until minutes before the birth. I have seen way too many women labor for 12-20 hours without even seeing their doctors (as in my daughter's VBAC in December). They are cared for by nurses, shifts of them, who come in and get things going their way. They need control too. YES! Doctors are trying to control liability issues -- because they are held responsible for everything at birth. I know about the liability thing -- it contributed to my divorce. My ex husband did an obstetric residency in order " to have credentials to go anywhere and do birth right " (while sending me to study with Suzanne Arms and Ina May) and he was gobbled up by the system and his own issues -- there is NO TIME OR PLACE in a resident or physicians day for healing. It takes a control freak to even pursue medicine, a bigger one to go into OB, and the residency is worse than the military boot camp (it is 6-8 weeks, not 4 years). They use sleep deprivation, and control to tear you down to build you up into one of their soldiers who will support and protect the brotherhood. For female OBs the wounds must be worse -- denying the feminine and perpetrating male ways of control? Of either gender, they are clueless, as are most midwives, that the birth is going to reflect the mother's own birth, her life, and the pregnancy. The only way to truly control is with drugs and interventions, and this is fully sanctioned by our society, male and female. Fear of birth is widespread, and few women want drug-free birth. 90% of our society was born under the influence of drugs -- going to doctor for drugs is normal. DOCTORS GET SUED if anything happens --- many midwives are now being sued after they allowed the family to have the control and a tragedy happens. I found an interesting research piece -- Malpractice awards tend to be higher the more tragic the person's injury/life is, REGARDLESS of whether the doctor was found to be a fault. We all pay for this. And, so do they. As a physician, they can have only one house and car that is not subject to lawsuit settlement. No other business has that sort of restriction. It takes creative, cunning ways to protect what one has sacrificed to get there -- 12-15 years of full-time education, health, and family -- to end up with $200,000 of debt. So, they sign up because their options for other employment are pretty minimal. They put all the money in one big house and car, or someone's else's name. Unfortunately, our society has to have compensation for what has happened. It is a reflection of non-spiritual approach to life. My exhusband is not practicing obstetrics after finishing the residency -- he was a family doctor before and went back to doing ER and other stuff just to get his loans paid off. He lives in a $50,000 house and is scrambling to pay off loans to get out of medicine. If he were to start obstetrics, his insurance in IL would be $100,000 per year. If he were to decide later that he wants out -- as many are -- he would have to pay four years of malpractice insurance upfront. That is $400,000 out of his/her pocket to be able to not practice. Most doctors are shut down because they are bought in, and can't get out. Doctors are as stuck in the system as anyone. There are consequences for speaking out. For those who wish to use their intuition and practice the physiological model of birth, to go against the norm, there is hell to pay with colleagues and the public. My ex got in trouble in residency for not routinely ordering D & C's. His arguement that he wanted to see if the body takes care of it first was ill-received. D & C's are billable. Meanwhile, WOMEN are demanding the inducing and epidural. And, they are choosing to be induced for no medical reason - or like my neighbor because that is when her cardiologist can be there. Not many women are looking for hospitals who will not use drugs or technology. Birth centers are struggling and so are the doctor led homebirth practices. Too many woman (feminists, even) are going, laying down, and allowing their body and mind to be drugges (numbed) and have birth of their baby done to them by a professional who is then responsible. I have observed that the typical " failure to progress " that happens at 5-7 cm is almost always due to emotional issues of the mother or in the couple. She can't open up because of unresolved issues. The hospital -- doctors, drugs, and interventions -- are our socially accepted enforcers, scapegoat, and heroes. Birth is not the time to work out your issues (pre-pregnancy is) and so doctors get the job done. It interferes with the relationship of the mother and baby --- the issue is unresolved and more complicated by the outside force and drugs and violation. You will be seeing this in the postpartum relationships and problems. It is going to take women to change this -- and it is an uphill battle right now. As is the one for women and mothers to end violence and war. It's all related. This demand -- by women --- for relief from pain began in the early part of the century. It coincided with discoveries of drugs and treatments and it's been a snowball effect since then. Following is his entry and here is a link I found: http://www.fathom.com/feature/60992/ I learned about this from a doctor on a UK doctor blog, not from women in history of midwifery ---- He says, " Doctors did not impose twilight sleep on women, it was in fact, the other way around. " I believe that in order to change anything we have to see where we all participated and how we can each work with the other to create a better practice and world. He says, " The people involved thought they were doing the right thing. Those who thought otherwise left. The hospital had little competition geographically. Nearby towns with more choice, also changed more quickly.I don't know what makes you think people accepted doctors advice as the Word of God in times past.Read about the history of the " barbaric practice " of twilight sleep.It was being done in Germany. In 1914, American journalists went to Germany to see it. The journalists came back to the USA and praised it to the heavens.They published their findings in those well-known medical journals The New York Times, The Ladies' Home Journal and Reader's Digest.There was an American Twilight Sleep Association. The Dr. Crippens of 75 years ago protested against these intrusions into physiologic labor. The laypeople (mostly women in this case, as you can imagine), through the American Twilight Sleep Association, pressured physicians to change their practice to include twilight sleep.I have seen writing from that association, in historical documents, advising patients to avoid the old-fashioned misogynistic reactionary doctors who resisted twilight sleep, to go find doctors who cared more for women's well-being in labor. If you are interested in the history of all this, look up " Twilight Sleep Association " on Google or similar. Or try this book:WHAT A BLESSING SHEHAD CHLOROFORM The Medical and Social Response to the Pain of Childbirth From 1800 to the Present.By Donald Caton.Yale University Press. " Sorry, Ysha --- I know this will seem off topic, there's a reason I lurk more than write!! But, I do believe this is critical to the postpartum experience. I really believe it is information that doulas and postpartum doulas need. I am working on a project now, Safe Baby Resolution that I'll be sending you all links to and we'll have a discussion board just for this topic --- janel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 Ye,s I agree Janel, we are all stuck in something that started with fear and continues out of fear and it is still only mothers themselves who can change it. I'd support the midwives as much as possible. I wonder how we, as postpartum doulas, can pick up the pieces. Vicky vicky york Lactation consultant, postpartum doula postpartum care services . Oregon vmyork Work : 5412556368 Review me at iKarma Want to spread your own reputation? - Janel Martin-Miranda ayurveda Wednesday, September 20, 2006 12:44 PM PerinatalAyurveda forum Re: Tackling obesity Hi, Vicky -- I am right there with ya -- and this is my thing!!! I have written tons on this in preparation for when it is time. I am pretty passionate about this --- so my tone below is not for you, it is my passion, more of an open letter. I am not sure we all know better (women or doctors or midwives) because it just keeps going on and on -- in the name of science, safety, and pain relief. This is a huge social issue -- how we treat women in our culture, and how soceity (doesn't) value motherhood, babies and children, (focus on motherhood, caring for children, homeschooling, homebirth, rather than on career and sustaining the system, is still not generally accepted), and how we love our freedom but do not take responsibilty in this litigous society. (Forgive me, my baby boy (age 23) has been deployed to Iraq and I am on a tear about the cost of freedom and the need for responsibility and sacrifice of all Americans). Our culture champions ending the domination of women in Afganastan, but supports - by denial of the truth -- the violation of American women in birth. This birth thing is bigger than the vote -- a woman's right to choice in birth. Direct me to ONE hospital that treats the mother and baby well, where a mother can be assured and confident of her care. I was at a birth in a small MO town in July that restored my belief in the possibilities -- great doctor, nurses, and awesome team work. STILL ended in cesearan of a healthy baby and pregnancy. ( " Failure to progress " past seven cm = mother/child/father issues - more below.) Not even here at the local birth center is it the the case that a mother can be sure she'll birth naturally and peacefully. Her chance is pretty high, but still dependent on the status that day or week of her midwife and physican's life (chaotic). It doesn't happen in hospitals. Many staff and their energy from their lives mix in with the laboring mother and baby's. There are no consistent protocols -- the drugs used have NEVER been researched to show they are safe to use on women and birthing baby, and are used anyway when shown to have severe consequences (ie, epidural). When a woman goes to the hospital, she is at the mercy of the Hospital protocols, the individual doctor's way, and the nurse's way. A woman is blessed if by chance she happens to get a nurse who is ok with natural birth (doctors and nurses are not trained to believe the body works or that the baby is a soul coming into the world and fully present). I attend births -- the doctor is rarely there until minutes before the birth. I have seen way too many women labor for 12-20 hours without even seeing their doctors (as in my daughter's VBAC in December). They are cared for by nurses, shifts of them, who come in and get things going their way. They need control too. YES! Doctors are trying to control liability issues -- because they are held responsible for everything at birth. I know about the liability thing -- it contributed to my divorce. My ex husband did an obstetric residency in order " to have credentials to go anywhere and do birth right " (while sending me to study with Suzanne Arms and Ina May) and he was gobbled up by the system and his own issues -- there is NO TIME OR PLACE in a resident or physicians day for healing. It takes a control freak to even pursue medicine, a bigger one to go into OB, and the residency is worse than the military boot camp (it is 6-8 weeks, not 4 years). They use sleep deprivation, and control to tear you down to build you up into one of their soldiers who will support and protect the brotherhood. For female OBs the wounds must be worse -- denying the feminine and perpetrating male ways of control? Of either gender, they are clueless, as are most midwives, that the birth is going to reflect the mother's own birth, her life, and the pregnancy. The only way to truly control is with drugs and interventions, and this is fully sanctioned by our society, male and female. Fear of birth is widespread, and few women want drug-free birth. 90% of our society was born under the influence of drugs -- going to doctor for drugs is normal. DOCTORS GET SUED if anything happens --- many midwives are now being sued after they allowed the family to have the control and a tragedy happens. I found an interesting research piece -- Malpractice awards tend to be higher the more tragic the person's injury/life is, REGARDLESS of whether the doctor was found to be a fault. We all pay for this. And, so do they. As a physician, they can have only one house and car that is not subject to lawsuit settlement. No other business has that sort of restriction. It takes creative, cunning ways to protect what one has sacrificed to get there -- 12-15 years of full-time education, health, and family -- to end up with $200,000 of debt. So, they sign up because their options for other employment are pretty minimal. They put all the money in one big house and car, or someone's else's name. Unfortunately, our society has to have compensation for what has happened. It is a reflection of non-spiritual approach to life. My exhusband is not practicing obstetrics after finishing the residency -- he was a family doctor before and went back to doing ER and other stuff just to get his loans paid off. He lives in a $50,000 house and is scrambling to pay off loans to get out of medicine. If he were to start obstetrics, his insurance in IL would be $100,000 per year. If he were to decide later that he wants out -- as many are -- he would have to pay four years of malpractice insurance upfront. That is $400,000 out of his/her pocket to be able to not practice. Most doctors are shut down because they are bought in, and can't get out. Doctors are as stuck in the system as anyone. There are consequences for speaking out. For those who wish to use their intuition and practice the physiological model of birth, to go against the norm, there is hell to pay with colleagues and the public. My ex got in trouble in residency for not routinely ordering D & C's. His arguement that he wanted to see if the body takes care of it first was ill-received. D & C's are billable. Meanwhile, WOMEN are demanding the inducing and epidural. And, they are choosing to be induced for no medical reason - or like my neighbor because that is when her cardiologist can be there. Not many women are looking for hospitals who will not use drugs or technology. Birth centers are struggling and so are the doctor led homebirth practices. Too many woman (feminists, even) are going, laying down, and allowing their body and mind to be drugges (numbed) and have birth of their baby done to them by a professional who is then responsible. I have observed that the typical " failure to progress " that happens at 5-7 cm is almost always due to emotional issues of the mother or in the couple. She can't open up because of unresolved issues. The hospital -- doctors, drugs, and interventions -- are our socially accepted enforcers, scapegoat, and heroes. Birth is not the time to work out your issues (pre-pregnancy is) and so doctors get the job done. It interferes with the relationship of the mother and baby --- the issue is unresolved and more complicated by the outside force and drugs and violation. You will be seeing this in the postpartum relationships and problems. It is going to take women to change this -- and it is an uphill battle right now. As is the one for women and mothers to end violence and war. It's all related. This demand -- by women --- for relief from pain began in the early part of the century. It coincided with discoveries of drugs and treatments and it's been a snowball effect since then. Following is his entry and here is a link I found: http://www.fathom.com/feature/60992/ I learned about this from a doctor on a UK doctor blog, not from women in history of midwifery ---- He says, " Doctors did not impose twilight sleep on women, it was in fact, the other way around. " I believe that in order to change anything we have to see where we all participated and how we can each work with the other to create a better practice and world. He says, " The people involved thought they were doing the right thing. Those who thought otherwise left. The hospital had little competition geographically. Nearby towns with more choice, also changed more quickly.I don't know what makes you think people accepted doctors advice as the Word of God in times past.Read about the history of the " barbaric practice " of twilight sleep.It was being done in Germany. In 1914, American journalists went to Germany to see it. The journalists came back to the USA and praised it to the heavens.They published their findings in those well-known medical journals The New York Times, The Ladies' Home Journal and Reader's Digest.There was an American Twilight Sleep Association. The Dr. Crippens of 75 years ago protested against these intrusions into physiologic labor. The laypeople (mostly women in this case, as you can imagine), through the American Twilight Sleep Association, pressured physicians to change their practice to include twilight sleep.I have seen writing from that association, in historical documents, advising patients to avoid the old-fashioned misogynistic reactionary doctors who resisted twilight sleep, to go find doctors who cared more for women's well-being in labor. If you are interested in the history of all this, look up " Twilight Sleep Association " on Google or similar. Or try this book:WHAT A BLESSING SHEHAD CHLOROFORM The Medical and Social Response to the Pain of Childbirth From 1800 to the Present.By Donald Caton.Yale University Press. " Sorry, Ysha --- I know this will seem off topic, there's a reason I lurk more than write!! But, I do believe this is critical to the postpartum experience. I really believe it is information that doulas and postpartum doulas need. I am working on a project now, Safe Baby Resolution that I'll be sending you all links to and we'll have a discussion board just for this topic --- janel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 Great guestion, Vicky! I am working on a training for doulas and postpartum doulas to incorporate the concepts of pre and perinatal psych and the trauma healing work, in order to assist parents during the birth and postpartum. Thanks for the inspiration. Janel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 very good Janel. Where might this conference be held? Are you going to the apppah conference in LA in Feb? Ysha, are you going? vicky york Lactation consultant, postpartum doula postpartum care services . Oregon vmyork Work : 5412556368 Review me at iKarma Want to spread your own reputation? - Janel Martin-Miranda ayurveda Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:58 AM PerinatalAyurveda forum Re: Tackling obesity Great guestion, Vicky! I am working on a training for doulas and postpartum doulas to incorporate the concepts of pre and perinatal psych and the trauma healing work, in order to assist parents during the birth and postpartum. Thanks for the inspiration. Janel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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