Why holistic healers are against modern medicine.

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Re: [hc] Re: Why holistic healers are against modern medicine. (Experience of RAVI) My story may be anecdotal and in no way reflecting on the allopathic traditions,but here it is for whatever it is worth. My father died 5 years ago at the ageof 84 having been run over by a car while taking his morning constitutional. 10years or so prior to that, he complained of a pain in his lower abdomen and Itook him to a well known hospital in our city. The surgeon there afterexamination alarmingly told that he should be admitted right then and there fora hernia operation. My father declined and we walked away though I waspersuading him to undergo the operation. He never had any problem with thehernia for the next 10 years and perhaps if he was not run over may not have hadany problem till his natural death. His skepticism about allopathy was shared bymany

of his generation and perhaps had clouded my view that doctors are not forthe patients but only for themselves. Unnecessary medication and calls forvarious tests make them appear as fleecing Shylocks. It may be true that inorder to protect themselves from litigation they routinely prescribe costlytests. I was present when a Doctor owner of a hospital which had imported a CATscan machine telling his staff to make it a point to ask all patients to undergothe test since he was losing money on installation of the machine. Suchincidents make us pessimistic about the medical profession. In the case of homeoor ayurvedic the lower cost factor perhaps is making patients depend on them.Ravi "Our ideal is not the spirituality that withdraws from life but the conquest of life by the power of the spirit." -

Aurobindo.

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Re: [hc] Why holistic healers are against modern medicine. Dear Dr MS, 1. Modern Medicine as we know is less than 120 years old and not 300years. Some progress in Anatomy may have started soemwhat earlier. REPLY: 120 years? You surprise me. Hahnemann was an allopathic chemist around 210 years ago. He was against modern medicine and stumbled upon homeopathy. The allopaths made his life miserable which led to his death. 2. Many of the infectious disease which took a heavy toll before 100years have been adequately controlled under these medical priciples. REPLY: Who has studied that? Were those

diseases naturally occuring diseases or disease states caused by the two World Wars? Spanish Influenza is a case in question. After the World Wars, when hygiene improved and stress levels came down, the people again regained their health and could ward off common diseases. 3. Average life expectancy has steadily risen during the last 100years. We don't want to go back to 19th Century. Although PublicHygeine is mostly responsible, vaccines also played a major role.Also much maligned DDT did reduce Malaria in India. REPLY: Definitely due to hygiene. Can you kindly show me the statistics that vaccines led to eradication of epidemics? American vaccine activists have prepared

graphs from the statistics that disprove the false notion spread by allopaths . Malaria is very much present in India and it has morphed. Why? Why are the classical malaria symptoms not found anymore? Why is there a spurt in cerebral malaria or meningitis? Why is there a spurt in encephelitis? The US CDC website lists both meningitis and encephalitis as vaccine adverse events. 4. Many of diseases we recognize today are not described in othersystems and still these practioners are quick to prescribe treatmentand that makes one suspicious. Let me tell an anecdode too. I cameacross a patient who was diagnosed to have Benign intracranialHypertension which can be diagnosed only by measuring Cerebrospinalpressure. After a few months of Diamox, she went to a homeopath. Hepromptly offered to cure her with some medicine. Do

homeopaths dospinal taps. Charlatons are not unique to Allopathy. You got by thetruckloads in practioners of every system. In fact the odds offinding a decent one in any of the alternate system is much lowerdue to poor credntialing process. REPLY: You are absolutely right that many diseases that are found today were not present earlier. We vaccine activists try very hard to point this out. Where have the acute routine diseases gone and how have they been replaced with chronic autoimmune disorders? Who or what or which procedure is responsible for this. Why is diabetes so prevalent in India now? What has changed the genetic structure of Indians? Certainly not homeopathy or ayurveda? Homeopathy deals

with symptoms and not disease names. Do all patients with the same disease names exhibit the same set of symptoms? How can you then generalise those cases and treat them equally? Homeopaths are perfectly eligible to treat any patient depending on the symptoms. You need some idea of holistic healing to understand this. Who is a quack? One who promises a cure in return for money but is unable to cure the patient and in turn ends up harming him irreparably. AS PER THIS DEFINITION ALL ALLOPATHS ARE "SCIENTIFIC QUACKS". 5. What can Homeopaths tell anybody about HIV, when they don't doviral cultures or antibody testing? So there is no diagnosticmethods they use to diagnose HIV, still they are offering

treatmentsfor these diseases? Or bad-mouth treatments like retrovirals thatare currently available. REPLY: Does HIV cause AIDS? Where is the proof? If you have it kindly show the medical community who are still undecided about it. Does the HIV - AIDS connection pass the Koch principles? Is AIDS an underlying constitution defect or a viral disease? Homeopathy acts on the principle that the immune system should be strengthened to fight the disease. On this principle they are perfectly eligible to treat AIDS. 6. Indians have the highest mortality rates among all immigrantgroups in USA. This is inspite of their vegetarian diet andrelatively lower cholesterol level. What have Ayurvedic

doctors doneto prevent that? By advocating 'not using Aspirin to prevent heartattack' Jyothish may actually be promoting a very unhealthypractice. What kind of research was done to show aspirin is bad forheart attack? REPLY: Suppose if budget allocated to allopathy in India was suddenly reduced to 1% from 95%. Suppose your entire medicine chest was destroyed by deforestation or contaminated with pesticides and GM crop. Suppose your medical literature was destroyed by maruading invadors. Suppose your medical practitioners were maimed enmasse. Suppose some foreign medical procedure (like your vaccinations and antibiotics) totally changed the normal constitution of the population. Suppose only those students opted for a medical degree who do not get a seat anywhere else. Would you still be able to perform? With all things going your way you are at a loss while treating

disease. How can you even raise a finger against others? Permanent maiming and medication cannot certainly be termed a cure. Aspirin is bad because it leads to ulcers and thinning of the blood causing haemarrhages. You are supposed to know that. Why do heart patients on aspirin develop cerebral bleeding and resultant clots. You are supposed to know. 7. Indians have one of the highest rates of diabetes in the world.Have you done any public health campaign to prevent diabetes usingAyurvedic practices? If so, what is the effect? REPLY : Exactly. Why has diabetes become a mass phenomenon? It was earlier a rare disease. Vaccine researchers say diabetes

could be a result of mass vaccinations. What are you doing to investigate the link? Have you even disclosed this? Why are long term studies on vaccines not being conducted? You say diabetes is a genetic disorder. Any medical practitioner should know that genetic epidemics are an impossibility. Then why are they so prominent today? Who or what has caused this? 8. Establishing that a treatement is effective is the responsibilityof the practioner and not somebody else. Have you taken any of theseHomeopathic or Ayurvedhic mediciens to Governement agencies andshowed proof that it works? You always hide behind saying these arenot true medicines and more nutritional and bypass governmentregulations. REPLY : The Indian government has recognised ayurvedic,

homeopathic, unani and naturopathic treatments. All these systems are proven effective. Reports of their effective nature have been published in peer review journals. Kindly contact the department of AYUSH in India to know the details. Even the recent much hyped homeopathic trial published in the Lancet was in fact a success. It was doctored as the researchers were suprised that homeopathy works, when they were out to prove that it does not work. The full report on this fraud can be found in the WDDTY page. The GOI is now recording the successes of these medical systems so that voices against them can be slienced permanently. I think it is time to judge allopathy by holistic standards

to see if it passes the required tests. We have already suggested it to the GOI. 9. Tell me a new drug or treatment that has been discovered in Ayurvedha in the last 10 years? If not, do you agree that Ayurvedha is astatic science with no scope for further refinement? REPLY : Ayurvedic principles are already complete and they still work. They now need research to understand the disease states introduced due to allopathic meddling, termed iatrogenic diseases, and devise sodhan or detoxification techniques. Homeopaths are already working on this and are preparing nosodes based upon toxic allopathic drugs. We have asked the GOI to raise the budget of the five recognised holistic systems to 25% from the current 5% to facilitate this research. 10. If you have a head injury in a car

accident or a gun shot woundto the abdomen, would you go to Homeopath or Ayur Vedhic? If not whynot? REPLY : Surgery is not medicine. Injury is not a disease. Again homeopathic medicines were very effectively used both by Russian and German forces in the World Wars. There are war records to prove that. The ayurveds were experts in treating war wounds. Surgery was highly developed in India, so much so that the British doctors in India had to cut off the hands of ayurvedic surgeons in Orissa to stop the spread of ayurveda. This is also a recorded fact. MS Jagannath. "Our ideal is not the spirituality that

withdraws from life but the conquest of life by the power of the spirit." - Aurobindo.

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He he he....

 

That's a nice one Jag. I love the way you take on these blokes.

 

" Scientific quacks " , eh? Fantastic.

 

Bob.

 

 

, Jagannath Chatterjee

<jagchat01 wrote:

> Who is a quack? One who promises a cure in return for money but is

unable to cure the patient and in turn ends up harming him irreparably.

AS PER THIS DEFINITION ALL ALLOPATHS ARE " SCIENTIFIC QUACKS " .

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Dear Dr Raman, I am sorry to be late in replying to your mail. I had missed it altogether. Yes, it is Karma. I too have suffered horrendously. I did not file any case against the doctors because I knew they were not at fault. They were just following what they have been taught. I always blame the medical system, not individual doctors. If modern medicine accepts karma then a lot of suffering can be avoided. The ayurveds study the horoscope of the child to know what diseases he is predisposed to. Thus they can ward off karma to a certain extent. They can also advise the parents accordingly so that they take better care of their wards by educating them to be honest and God fearing individuals. Hence good values are inculcated so that the child does not adopt a wrong lifestyle later on in life. In my case also I could discern that the most painful

period coincided with the mahadasha of the planet that is the most malefic in my horoscope. Had I known at that time I could have taken recourse to remedial measures. I know it is cruel to blame patients for their illness. Here I am not discussing with patients, but doctors. If I was so cruel and without compassion as you suggest then I would not be carrying on my campaign despite my personal pain and difficulties. I am blunt because the time has come to act decisively without being fooled by the jargon of the medical industry. I like Swami Ramdev because he too prefers to deal directly with the problem rather than suggesting that his brand of yoga is to "complement" modern medicine. It is allopathy that should be used to complement holistic methods as and when required, and not vice versa. You talk of cancer. I know of an oncologist who has

written a book dealing with the need for a fresh approach to cancer and its treatment. In his book a whole chapter has been devoted to karma. An associate of his educated us on his ideas and showed us the book at a Rotary meeting. As per the oncologist, cancer is an all pervading disease that attacks the entire body-mind-emotion system and thus requires a holistic approach. He openly criticises radiation and chemotherapy. Genetic engineers too have decried chemotherapy and radiation as they say it helps spread the cancer. Please refer to the book, "Living with the fluid genome" by Dr Mae Wan Ho. Diseases like cancer and AIDS are spreading due to chemical intervention with disease. The entire system breaks down due to the repeated onslaught. Unless this trend is checked we have a horrible future ahead. I suggest you look at the macro situation and try to find out why more and more patients

are coming down with cancer. I also suggest you study the holistic methods sincerely so that you yourself can complement your treatment with holistic therapies. Now there are many universities all over the world who are offering short term courses on holistic therapies for the modern medicos. However when you are studying them you should keep aside your reductionist views and immerse yourself in the holistic concept. Else you will entirely miss what these therapies have to offer. Currently in India the courses are severely impeded as the GOI has put unnecessary stress on anatomy/physiology/pathology etc. in its view to "upgrade" the knowledge available. This is a serious flaw and is a serious impediment to the students who end up being nowhere. The courses should immediately be revised to reflect the classical views. I have been writing on this matter to the authorities. Please

take my above suggestion seriously. I am not joking. If the health scenario has to improve then the good and honest mainstream doctors too have to come forward and do their bit. Regards,Jagannath. hinducivilization , "Raman Khanna" <rshiyayati wrote:>> Dear Jagannath,> > With this one statement about how "people are both the problem and the> solution", you have demonstrated a remarkable lack of both knowledge and> compassion. I wish you could come and observe the cancer ward of our> hospital for just one day and see how wrong you are. The amount of suffering> and heartache is sometimes unbearable even for the doctors, and the> patients' only crime is having a few bad genes, many of which we don't even> know, that allowed them to develop some of the most terrifying

complications> you can imagine. Paralysis, water in the lungs, intractable pain, unending> seizures--all because of genes over which no one has any control. Blaming> them for their problems is despicable. Just consider four cases:> > 1.JK, a 22 year old boy with blood cancer. No prior history in his family.> We discharged him from the hospital to die because we ran out of things to> do for him.> 2. KN, a 37 year old woman with bile duct cancer. She suffered from chronic> accumulations of fluid in her belly until she died.> 3. SK, a 45 year old who died from congestive heart failure due to his> multiple myeloma.> 4. PS, a 37 year old with lung cancer. Not a smoker--died of seizures.> > You have to be a hard hearted and cruel person to start blaming the patients> for their bad luck. Or, if you believe in Karma as I do, it may be their> Karma to have had to endure

so much suffering--but you can be sure that> blaming them will have a distinctly unpleasant effect on our own Karma, too.> > No one is saying that allopathy has all the answers to these questions. But> at least it continues to work towards finding them. All I have heard so far> from the defenders of homeopathy is how bad allopathy--but not one of them> has given a suggestion about how it may supplant allopathy in those> fields--cancer, heart disease, stroke, autoimmune disease, trauma--where> life is on the line. Can you even think to offer a rational, specific> alternative in any of these cases? Until you can, your "blame the> allopathy" game is just so much hot air.> > Raman> > -- > Dharmo Rakshati Rakshitah> --Those who defend righteousness are themselves defended by it.> Mahabharata, Shantiparva> > Raman Khanna> Northwestern

University> www.ramankhanna.sulekha.com> > >

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Re: Need for double bind trials. Dear Dr Susalra, While such studies will be beneficial to the practitioners, they are of little use to the patient who would like to treat his own acute condition. There is often an "intuition" factor here. The patient tends to gravitate towards the remedy. We see this when the patient unknowingly puts pressure on the right accupressure points when in pain. We see in animals how they instinctively search out their medication. The sight of dogs, cattle reaching for special plants or leaves when sick, of monkeys and other animals licking a special kind of mud, of mongooses darting to eat herbs while fighting a snake are all pointers to this intuition. Similarly the patient chooses the medication which suits him, whether a herbal tea, or a particular food, or fruit. If it relieves him then it is his medication. As the

same medicine would not cure another, it would be denounced by the modern medicos who care little for individual needs. Therefore holistic therapies cannot be subjected to double blind trials. They should have their own standards. Standards borne out of many years of application. Thus as Sri Bhattacharya writes, they are of a "broader spectrum". Ayurveda has many additions to its pharmacoepia of remedies discovered by patients when they were sick. Regards, Jagannath. "Our ideal is not the spirituality that withdraws from life but the conquest of life by the power of the spirit." - Aurobindo.

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Dear Dr MS, You have touched some very valid points here. 1. The active ingredient. ------------------------------It is the search for the active ingredient and the attempt to find the chemical equivalent that has done many remedies based on natural herbs in. Cases in point is Rawolfia Serpentina, and others. When you isolate the active ingredient you interfere with the effect the remedy has as a whole. Often the active ingredient when used in isolation causes many side effects that do not appear when the entire "concoction" is used. This is the reason why raw mercury in vaccines is so dangerous and yet ayurveda uses mercury in many preparations without damage. In the above case the remedy based on the active ingredient of Rawolfia that Pharma developed caused so much depression that it was

withdrawn from the market. Then Pharma went along warning patients about Rawolfia saying that it triggered depression. Digitalis, incidentally, is used in homeopathy also which knows how to tap the curative properties of toxins very effectively. 2. The need for ayurveda to evolve. ------------Definitely this should happen, BUT BASED ON AYURVEDIC PRINCIPLES. It will not do if a reductionist doctor catches hold of a natural herb and tries to tinker with it in his own way. A study of nature as well as man is essential to understand ayurveda. The reductionist doctors ignore both nature as well as man, and yet try to "improve" on them. Surgery would definitely have evolved with the ayurveds also. You ignore the fact that they reached where they reached without any external help. 3. Dependance on

anatomy/physiology. --------------------This knowledge is essential to know how the body works, not to try and tinker with it. You can study every part of the body but you cannot make the body function as YOU wish simply because the body works in a method and harmony, with the backing of a COMPLETE knowledge that we can know little about. A case in point is the recent discovery of a higher code that rules over the genetic code. When you proceed more on that direction it will be obvious that something non-material rules over the working of the body. Then modern medicine will have to begin anew by experimenting with energy. We can save a lot of time and lives by studying the already available holistic therapies that have already delved deep into this energy concept and found the answers. Regards,Jagannath. hinducivilization , "vpsubramanian" <vpsubramanian wrote:>> Modern Medical sciences all have a humble beginning. I remember > reading about discovery of digitalis in Heart failure. > http://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/vchemlib/mim/bristol/digitalis/digitalis_text.> htm> Digitalis is an example of a cardio-active or cardiotonic drug, in > other words a steroid which has the ability to exert a specific and > powerful action on the cardiac muscle in animals, and has been used > in the treatment of heart conditions ever since its discovery in > 1775.> > The discovery of digitalis is accredited to the Scottish doctor > William Withering, and makes for quite an interesting historical > story. While working as a

physician in Staffordshire in the 16th > Century, his girlfriend got him interested in plants and botany - so > much so, that in 1776 he published a huge treatise, whose title > begins 'A botanical arrangement of all the vegetables growing in > Great Britain,...' and goes on for a further 24 lines! By the age of > 46 he'd become the richest doctor outside of London, and bought > Edgbaston Hall in Birmingham, which is now Edgbaston Golf Club. > Another of his claims to fame is that he owned the first water > closet in Birmingham!> > In 1775, one of his patients came to him with a very bad heart > condition and since Withering had no effective treatment for him, > thought he was going to die. The patient, being an independent type, > went instead to a local gypsy, took a secret herbal remedy - and > promptly got much better!> > When Withering heard about this, he

became quite excited and > searched for the gypsy throughout the by-ways of Shropshire. > Eventually he found her, and demanded to know what was in the secret > remedy. After much bargaining, the gypsy finally told her secret. > The herbal remedy was made from a whole concoction of things, but > the active ingedient was the purple foxglove, digitalis purpurea. > The potentcy of digitalis extract had been known since the dark > ages, when it had been used as a poison for the mediaeval 'trial by > ordeal', and also used as an external application to promote the > healing of wounds. There are also reports of digitalis extract > finding some use in the treatment of dropsy.> ---End of artilce-------> > MS : Still this drug has been thoroughly studied with a level of > understanding of its physiology that one cannot expect the Gypsy > doctor to have. Similarly there are and

can be valuable medicines in > many old remedies. Most doctors would agree there is value in > studying them and see if they can be incorporated in modern > medicine. To do that, they still have to undergo vigorous testing. > This is where we seem to have disagreement in the group where some > claim, there is no such need and that these medicines are perfect. > Some claim, everything about medicine has already been discovered in > Ayur Vedha and all we need to do is to study Charaka. They say all > surgeries have been done in Ayur Vedha and have already been > perfected. All we need to do is to study them. They claim that the > Antomical knowledge of Ayurvedhic physicians is on par if not better > than the current medical knowledge. They claim there is no value in > Modern medicine and in fact everything we do nowadays is wrong.> > To these people the issue Whether Ayurvedha

is alternative medicine > or complimentary medicine is not the point.> > MS "Our ideal is not the spirituality that withdraws from life but the conquest of life by the power of the spirit." - Aurobindo.

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Dear Dr MS, You are again thinking as a reductionist would. You want to employ a particular situation to the entire world whereas a holistically inclined person would study the individual case and search for individualised remedies. Poisoning has also helped evolve innumberable remedies. In fact homeopathy studies the poisoning symptoms to deduce how the poison could help. Mankind has evolved through trials and errors. It is a tragedy that we are retrying the same trial and error method instead of employing knowledge that is already available to us as a result of trials and errors of history. When you are hungry do you not gravitate towards food? When you are thirsty do you not seek water? When you are cold do you not seek warmth? When it rains do you not instinctively seek shelter? Then why does it become a controversy if a sick person seeks out a remedy? Yes, homeopathy defies common sense. Even Dr Hahnemann admits this in his work, "Chronic Diseases". He did not try to explain how homeopathy works. He simply stated that it worked and candidly confessed that he did not know how. This too is a scientific approach. The tendency to speak a truth. The courage to admit ones ignorance. It is when you realise that you are ignorant that you gravitate towards knowledge. Regards,Jagannath. hinducivilization , "vpsubramanian" <vpsubramanian wrote:>> Dear Jagannathji, > So tell me, why is poisoning a leading cause of death in children?> If instinct is the way to choose medicines, children should > naturally avoid things that are injurious to them. That is not the > case.> > It appears to me that many of

the postulates of Homeopathy defy > common sense. First you claim diluting a drug will increase its > potency.Now you are claiming, patients can intuitively select > appropriate therapy. Do you have proof for any of these?> > MS> > hinducivilization , Jagannath Chatterjee > <jagchat01@> wrote:> >> > Re: Need for double bind trials.> > > > Dear Dr Susalra,> > > > While such studies will be beneficial to the practitioners, they > are of little use to the patient who would like to treat his own > acute condition. There is often an "intuition" factor here. The > patient tends to gravitate towards the remedy. We see this when the > patient unknowingly puts pressure on the right accupressure

points > when in pain.> > "Our ideal is not the spirituality that withdraws from life but the conquest of life by the power of the spirit." - Aurobindo.

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