comment on Whagmare Article on Energy conservation in body

[Guest guest]

Dear Vaibhav

 

You asked for comment on your "Article on Energy conservation in body" (to

be found at <http://www.tripuracsrd.org/energy_con_article.htm>).

Please allow for strong criticism.

 

My personal and friendly advice is to take the article from the web immediately.

The following explains in the shortest possible way, why I think it better

to forget about it.

 

1. You indiscriminately mix ancient (Ayurvedic) teachings with scientific

concepts. This can be seen in the equation "(male) semen equals shukra" throughout

your paper.

This kind of ahistorical and indiscriminate mixing distorts both, scientific

(medical) knowlege and Ayurvedic traditional assumptions on life processes.

 

2. The qualities you ascribe to "semen" and "ovum" are not the ones recognized

scientifically since the time of the discovery of these items and up to now,

but are laid over them by your free, speculative association.

This should at least be clearly stated as a hypothesis, or a series of hypotheses,

but instead you present your speculations as some kind of "truth", and claiming

the authority of science.

3. Together with such mixed articles of faith come, and this is what I reject

the strongest, such cruel statements as the following:

"If baby is weak, parents must

be blamed for that purpose, that, they for their happiness have deteriorated

the health of sperm which resulted in the weak baby. Children must file a

suit or case against their parents and must be held responsible for the cause

of their weakness and be punished heavily."

Why I consider this as unethical and cruel?

Because parents having a "weak baby" are blamed indiscriminately of the source

of the baby's weakness, which can be manifold, as everybody knows. The reduction

of this many causes to an assumed "deteriorated (...) health of sperm"

is absurd. Moreover, sperm has been described as the male contribution of

the "weakness" of the baby, how then, I ask, can the parents, meaning man

and woman!, be blamed for said "deterioration"? This is illogic.

To suggest, (and I hasten to ask: to suggest to whom?), to "punish heavily"

parents which are in deep sorrow about the health of their children, is against

the medical ethics worldwide, which counters all temptation to blame patients,

or here, some "responsible" parents. Such generalized responsability is simply

a product of your fantasy. If any government would issue laws of this kind,

this would lead to immense suffering on all levels of the population!

4. The gross simplification that one root problem, the so-called "heavy loss

of sperms", is the single cause to many effects, cannot but be wrong. It

defies any common sense logic, and all knowledge about causes of illness,

etc. Neither biomedical nor ayurvedic nor older chinese medical thinking

linked everything to one single cause, having that many effects. I cite:

"Conclusion: Blood Pressure, Diabetes, Infertility,

Schizophrenia, Alcoholism or any drug addiction, AIDS/HIV, or any other virus,

TB, Cancer, Paralysis, Feats, Weakness, Psychological disorders, Osteoporosis,

trouble during the menopause, other range of diseases are all related to

the basic energy, which produces sperms. "

There is nothing in your article and in human knowledge accumulated over

centuries to support such a conclusion.

 

Dear Vaibhav, I think it is better to conserve my energy for this time, and

let you spend some, on further study and thinking. Please avoid further cruelty

of thought, which only leads to further confusion. I'd wish that you think

about and contribute to peace, true healing, and to effective help to afflicted

people.

 

I look in deep sorrow to India. The politically organized violence of all

sides must stop. I sincerely hope that you, Vaibhav, will not be led astray

any further.

 

Regards

 

rodo

 

 

Vaibhav EKnathrao Waghmare schrieb:

 

Thanks Rodo,

I thought that, no one will be able to communicate with me..thans for considering the poll question.

I will forward you to visit the site and read an article and send me your reply regarding this.

http://www.tripuracsrd.org/energy_con_article.htm

This article is the theam of the question poll. All over the world across the humanity, we are facing same problem of diseases, increased number of physical, psychological and genetic disorders along with the enviromnetal problem. Only nature can give the answer to prevent all these things. I came up with the hypothesis which is a heart of the article mentioned in the web site.

Go through it, I will try to communicate with you further.

Regarding the chinese script, they also have emphasised on the preservation of shukra in the body. All the ancient scripts as well as great saints of the humanity insist the way which leads to the preservation of the sement(shukra).

But there is a small problem with the understanding of the female shukra. According to ayurveda, shukra is something which helps in the development of the garbha (a new born baby). Anything which helps in the development of the body is called as a shukra, If we consider this definition, ovum comes first who host the sperm, then menstrual blood which helps in the nourishment in nine month, then comes the role of the milk till the age of 5 or so.

More over, as man can control the flow of semen, female cannot do so, as they have to menstruate and ovulate every month....so what and why is the difference in nature.....

what is the cause of diseases ?

what is the cause of unnatural untimely deaths ?

what is the cause of old age problems ?

what is the cause of decreasing immunity ?

what is the cause of increased number of genetic disorders ?

and a lot...

thanks dear

with luv.

iastam , rodo pfister <rodoX@g...> wrote:

 

 

dear Vaibhav

well, i do not know what female shukra is. possibly female shukra

 

is

 

just female semen?

but there are similar problems with terms in the chinese

 

literature. if

 

a term is used by contemporary "traditional" medicines and in

 

ancient

 

texts, sometimes things get mixed up; the newer physiological or anatomical terms get mixed with the older terms, which may or may

 

not

 

involve some differences in meaning.

in western medicine, there is considerable discussion if there is a female human prostate, and female ejaculation. it comes and goes in

 

20th

 

c. discussion of the anatomical structures around the female

 

urethra, in

 

earlier dicussions it is present and absent, denied and

 

rediscovered ...

 

 

therefore a female semen has no direct counterpart in modern

 

terminology

 

.... and, in fact, it is not clear which substances it contains ....

 

ans

 

so on ...

cheers rodo

Vaibhav EKnathrao Waghmare schrieb:

 

 

Shukra is one of seven dhatu in the body. Male and female has different shukra. In simple language, to understand easily, shukra

 

 

is

 

 

something which is bread and butter of the body. In male shukra is semen, other dhatu are similar in both male as well as female. How you are defining the shukar ?

--

[Guest guest]

iastam , rodo pfister <rodoX@g...> wrote:

> Dear Vaibhav

>

 

Dear Rodo,

 

Thanks for giving comments on my article.

 

> You asked for comment on your " Article on Energy conservation in

body "

> (to be found at

<http://www.tripuracsrd.org/energy_con_article.htm>).

> Please allow for strong criticism.

 

You are most welcome for the ever possible strongest criticism from

your side. It is said that we should have a neighbour who is

strongest critics for you. Thanks again. Such type of criticism can

only be given by real friend only, and I appreciate the criticism

from you and really happy to read all these things mentioned by you

from, within the heart after deep understanding of the concept to be

transferred.

 

>

> My personal and friendly advice is to take the article from the web

> immediately. The following explains in the shortest possible way,

why I

> think it better to forget about it.

 

I am very sorry for " not accepting " your request for taking out the

article from my web site. But I may be agree to delete all the

messages from your group, I will not mind by.

 

> 1. You indiscriminately mix ancient (Ayurvedic) teachings with

> scientific concepts. This can be seen in the equation " (male) semen

> equals shukra " throughout your paper.

 

I am very sorry to say that, it is not mix of ancient teaching with

the scientific concepts. If you can think broadly, the concept which

I wanted to tell was already in exercise since the vedic times the

term used for it is BRAHMACHARYA. It is continued till today from the

anicent yogis. Among the five YAMA of ASHTANGA YOGA. Satya, Ahinsa,

Astaya, Aparigraha and BRAHMACHARYA. I can give you Hundreds of

references from the upanishads(I have the collection of origincal

sanskrti text of 112 upanishad and over 300 upanshad quotes) Geeta,

Mahabharata, Ramayana, Dasboth, Atharvaveda - Brahmacharya Sukta, and

a lot other ancient indian scripts.) I will request you to please go

through the definitions and different visions of various saints

looking at the life, you will get the " click " why I have stressed on

the point of shukra...

 

This kind of ahistorical and indiscriminate mixing distorts both,

> scientific (medical) knowlege and Ayurvedic traditional assumptions

on

> life processes.

 

With above reference it is not ahistorical and indiscriminate mixing,

but it is the way of explaining the old ancient ayurvedic science to

prove its concepts.... this is the begining...lot to come ahead.

 

> 2. The qualities you ascribe to " semen " and " ovum " are not the ones

> recognized scientifically since the time of the discovery of these

items and up to now, but are laid over them by your free, speculative

association. This should at least be clearly stated as a hypothesis,

or a series of hypotheses, but instead you present your speculations

as some kind of " truth " , and claiming the authority of science.

 

According to the definition of the shukra in ayurveda the definition

is " GARBHOPADASCHA KARMANI " I can not define in english words as my

vocabulary of direct translation from sanskrit to english, is very

not very big, I will kindly request you to please consult some

sanskrit and ayurvedic expert to get the meaning of this. In male

only sperm and in female ovum, mens fluid and milk satisfy the

definition.

 

> 3. Together with such mixed articles of faith come, and this is

what I reject the strongest, such cruel statements as the following:

" If baby is weak, parents must be blamed for that purpose, that, they

for their happiness have deteriorated the health of sperm which

resulted in the weak baby. Children must file a suit or case against

their parents and must be held responsible for the cause of their

weakness and be punished heavily. " Why I consider this as unethical

and cruel? Because parents having a " weak baby " are blamed

indiscriminately of the source of the baby's weakness, which can be

manifold, as everybody knows. The reduction of this many causes to an

assumed " deteriorated (...) health of sperm " is absurd. Moreover,

sperm has been described as the male contribution of the " weakness "

of the baby, how then, I ask, can the parents, meaning man and

woman!, be blamed for said " deterioration " ? This is illogic.

 

There is nothing illogical. There are scientific evidences from the

field of modern medicine that the " strong man has the strong sperm "

it is quite logical. Sperm is a seed of human like in the nature.

Strong man has to produce strong seed. The causes for the

deterioration of the quality of sperm are numerous and can be

eplained with the help of modern medicine also with the help of

ayurveda. But you can not define completely. Only theme of this

article can give the answer and if you permit I can conceptually

explain all the phenomenon and explain every thing in terms of the

genetics but the branch of genetics is in very initial stages, it can

not also explain this, but I ca explain you in consolidation.

 

Now regarding the punishment. What is the law for. Basically law are

defined for letting people to have peaceful living, control over

their action so that the people in the community will not be

distrubed.. and lot a like. This is in broader sense called

as " DANDA " it is well defined in the DHARMA. Dharma is for the

wellbeing of human being. The punishment is for letting people know

what is good and what is bad.

 

Every thing depends upon your understanding towards the universe and

process of evulution. If you have broader vision without books and

guidance you can have total understanding. Why I have stressed for

the heavy punishment because let the people know what is the fact.

What is heriditory, and how it occurs ? you can udnerstand this based

on the article. This weak quality of sperm is the genetic

deterioration of the seed. Think in what way it can be stopped. Do

you think this is the single man process. All the nations across the

humanity should join hands to execute this law.

 

> To suggest, (and I hasten to ask: to suggest to whom?), to " punish

> heavily " parents which are in deep sorrow about the health of their

> children, is against the medical ethics worldwide, which counters

all temptation to blame patients, or here, some " responsible "

parents. Such generalized responsability is simply a product of your

fantasy. If any government would issue laws of this kind, this would

lead to immense suffering on all levels of the population!

 

Think what is the origin of law ? Laws are defined by the DHARMA.

Origin of DHARMA is through the proces of natures evolution. So

untill and unless you have deep thinking of the process of evolution

you can not understand the DHARMA and you can not interpret why the

laws of LAW are in similar way.

 

Forget about the punishment to the parents, parents of future

generations should know the cause, so that they will not repeate the

same mistake. This way we are building happy, healthy and peaceful

community with unrestanding the true meaning of love. (sorry I cannot

put my emotions in the words, as I have lot to speak, if you let me

speak i can speak hours together on this subject with strong

references from the ancient scripts.

 

4. The gross simplification that one root problem, the so-

called " heavy loss of sperms " , is the single cause to many effects,

cannot but be wrong. It defies any common sense logic, and all

knowledge about causes of illness, etc. Neither biomedical nor

ayurvedic nor older chinese medical thinking linked everything to one

single cause, having that many effects. I cite: " Conclusion: Blood

Pressure, Diabetes, Infertility, Schizophrenia, Alcoholism or any

drug addiction, AIDS/HIV, or any other virus, TB, Cancer, Paralysis,

Feats, Weakness, Psychological disorders, Osteoporosis, trouble

during the menopause, other range of diseases are all related to the

basic energy, which produces sperms. "

 

Basically what is a disease. It is the lack or eccess of " something "

than expected, there are many reasons to such thing. But if you think

of solving the todays problem, major share of this is the loss of

shukra. Think why the person is healthy, look at the life of ancient

saints from india since times of veda or upanishads till today.....

you will get the answer.

 

>There is nothing in your article and in human knowledge accumulated

>over centuries to support such a conclusion.

 

I am proud to say that, I have hundreds of supporting scripts since

times of veda's till today in regard with the " theme " of article

along with the teaching of world wide ancient saits.

 

> Dear Vaibhav, I think it is better to conserve my energy for this

time, and let you spend some, on further study and thinking. Please

avoid further cruelty of thought, which only leads to further

confusion. I'd wish that you think about and contribute to peace,

true healing, and to effective help to afflicted people.

 

I feel very sorry from my heart for your misunderstanding for the

article. But I donot blame, because you are not a philosopher,

otherwise you would have accepted this article in different form.

 

> I look in deep sorrow to India. The politically organized violence

of all sides must stop. I sincerely hope that you, Vaibhav, will not

be led astray any further.

 

I am very happy and also proud about your understanding towards the

INDIA. I also in tune with the stopping politically organized violance

from all sides not only in india but also across the world(!!!)

 

Really I donot want to create any astray further. If you think of the

objective of the article you can understand. Whole philosophy cannot

be completely put into the words, so as, i cannot put all of my

emotions and understanding through the words.. sorry for this....

 

I really want to conserve energy of you in future...

 

I have also prepared an article on " PREPARING FOR DEATH " , but I

afraid to tell this to you, beacause you are afraid of the very

initial and small concept of life...how can you.. ?

 

 

Really happy about your criticism and comments on the article.

 

thanks with love.

 

vaibhav

 

 

> Regards

>

> rodo

>

>

> Vaibhav EKnathrao Waghmare schrieb:

>

> >Thanks Rodo,

> >

> >I thought that, no one will be able to communicate with me..thans

for

> >considering the poll question.

> >

> >I will forward you to visit the site and read an article and send

me

> >your reply regarding this.

> >

> >http://www.tripuracsrd.org/energy_con_article.htm

> >

> >This article is the theam of the question poll. All over the world

> >across the humanity, we are facing same problem of diseases,

> >increased number of physical, psychological and genetic disorders

> >along with the enviromnetal problem. Only nature can give the

answer

> >to prevent all these things. I came up with the hypothesis which

is a

> >heart of the article mentioned in the web site.

> >

> >Go through it, I will try to communicate with you further.

> >

> >Regarding the chinese script, they also have emphasised on the

> >preservation of shukra in the body. All the ancient scripts as

well

> >as great saints of the humanity insist the way which leads to the

> >preservation of the sement(shukra).

> >

> >But there is a small problem with the understanding of the female

> >shukra. According to ayurveda, shukra is something which helps in

> >the development of the garbha (a new born baby). Anything which

helps

> >in the development of the body is called as a shukra, If we

consider

> >this definition, ovum comes first who host the sperm, then

menstrual

> >blood which helps in the nourishment in nine month, then comes the

> >role of the milk till the age of 5 or so.

> >

> >More over, as man can control the flow of semen, female cannot do

so,

> >as they have to menstruate and ovulate every month....so what and

why

> >is the difference in nature.....

> >

> >what is the cause of diseases ?

> >what is the cause of unnatural untimely deaths ?

> >what is the cause of old age problems ?

> >what is the cause of decreasing immunity ?

> >what is the cause of increased number of genetic disorders ?

> >and a lot...

> >

> >thanks dear

> >

> >with luv.

> >

> >iastam , rodo pfister <rodoX@g...> wrote:

> >

> >

> >>dear Vaibhav

> >>

> >>well, i do not know what female shukra is. possibly female shukra

> >>

> >>

> >is

> >

> >

> >>just female semen?

> >>

> >>but there are similar problems with terms in the chinese

> >>

> >>

> >literature. if

> >

> >

> >>a term is used by contemporary " traditional " medicines and in

> >>

> >>

> >ancient

> >

> >

> >>texts, sometimes things get mixed up; the newer physiological or

> >>anatomical terms get mixed with the older terms, which may or may

> >>

> >>

> >not

> >

> >

> >>involve some differences in meaning.

> >>

> >>in western medicine, there is considerable discussion if there is

a

> >>female human prostate, and female ejaculation. it comes and goes

in

> >>

> >>

> >20th

> >

> >

> >>c. discussion of the anatomical structures around the female

> >>

> >>

> >urethra, in

> >

> >

> >>earlier dicussions it is present and absent, denied and

> >>

> >>

> >rediscovered ...

> >

> >

> >>therefore a female semen has no direct counterpart in modern

> >>

> >>

> >terminology

> >

> >

> >>... and, in fact, it is not clear which substances it

contains ....

> >>

> >>

> >ans

> >

> >

> >>so on ...

> >>

> >>cheers rodo

> >>

> >>Vaibhav EKnathrao Waghmare schrieb:

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>>Shukra is one of seven dhatu in the body. Male and female has

> >>>different shukra. In simple language, to understand easily,

shukra

> >>>

> >>>

> >is

> >

> >

> >>>something which is bread and butter of the body. In male shukra

is

> >>>semen, other dhatu are similar in both male as well as female.

How

> >>>you are defining the shukar ?

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>--

> >>>

> >>>

[Guest guest]

Dear Vaibhav

 

quick answers & questions & suggestions from the critical neighbour:

 

a) you call me a non-philosopher, maybe implying to be a philospher

yourself? then, well, you use shukra and any word as it pleases you,

also in new senses? okay. but why you asked iastam members what female

shukra should be, then? just define it as " the dirt between the toes of

a woman wearing sandals " , that's shukra. and you do not need to find any

historical relevance to it, do not even need to quote any old teachings.

 

b) rodo never doubted your reading and experience with old indian texts

on shukra and whatever. THAT is NOT the difference of understanding, we

have. in fact, it does not enter the argument as long as we still do not

know how to use our words on common grounds. i am sorry that this is

going to be in the english language, but this is a learnt language for

me, too.

 

c) if you really want to say, that everybody, who does not accept your

kind of philosophical endeavour, is " afraid of the very initial and

small concept of life " , i think, you are very quick in putting up some

idea on rodo or anybody. how dare you?

 

d) moreover, it would be easier, if you would try to speak in unmixed

concepts/terms. as i wrote before: the undiscriminate mixing of old and

new (medical) terms and concepts is what i consider as faulty. this is

not difficult to understand, as many things change over time.

perhaps this mixing is a way to create new speculations, but i do not

follow you there. why? because it does not make sense in the mixed

formulas you gave in your article. because i do not agree with your

reduction of each-and-everything to some thing called " sperm/shukra " .

and why? because i do not even see, how you'd solve your " small problem "

(your words) with the " female shukra " in this kind of reasoning. and

because of other reasons alluded to earlier.

 

e) it is true that not everything can be said in short articles. but if

something in the short version is imprecise or wrong or does create

misunderstandings, it is better to cherish the art of precision. do you

agree?

 

f) if the contents of your writings are articles of faith to you, which

cannot be doubted or put into question, i do not see why we should

dicuss them. because i never argue with believers. and it is clear why:

a believer will not move a step, ignoritng the fact that our mind likes

to travel. that's no fun! like speaking with a wall.

but in my view, even if something is very old, it can be very wrong, or

not to the point, or to be replaced by our own understanding of the matter.

and what is the problem with something old saying something i do not

judge to be correct? just discard it. what is your take on this?

 

g) but in the case of shukra, or chinese jing, i do not even judge them.

i can try to understand what such ancient views of life processes wanted

to say, and that's it. (this is one reason why i will read Peter Rahul

Das' book, when it arrives here, not because he " discusses everything " ,

but because he analyses historically texts on things related to

reproduction. and i think it will enable me to compare indian views with

chinese or european ones. anything wrong with this?)

such ancient views can turn out to be very rich on some issues, and very

poor on others. never noticed that?

well, i read in a 2000 year old chinese manuscript, found in a tomb,

that same question you have: " what is it, that a person will lose, and

die, or gain, and live? "

clearly, humanity gave many answers up to now, but did not solve it once

and forever. and yes, one basic point is that people die.

and yes, Vaibhav's particular answer does not convince me.

 

more life, and more moves of the mind monkey, please!

 

rodo

[Guest guest]

As Moderator of the IASTAM discussion list, I should like to thank

Waghmare and Rodo for their contributions on the subject of shukra (semen)

in ayurveda.

 

I now declare this discussion closed for the present.

 

With best wishes,

 

Dominik Wujastyk

Moderator, IASTAM list