flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

[Guest guest]

is there a difference? if so, what?

 

i was told that they are interchangeable, but flax is cheaper.

 

thanks,

 

- drgn

 

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[Guest guest]

--- drgn <drgn wrote:

> is there a difference? if so, what?

>

> i was told that they are interchangeable, but flax

> is cheaper.

 

No, very different. Evening primrose oil is taken for

its GLA (gamma-linolenic acid), a *good* omega-6 fat.

GLA is taken for immune weakness, high cholesterol,

arthritis, PMS and healthy skin. Flax seed oil is

taken for its omega-3s. BTW, borage oil is a more

economical and practical choice for GLA. A single

capsule of borage oil usually contains at least four

times the GLA of an evening primrose capsule.

 

Pam

 

 

 

GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.

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[Guest guest]

-

" drgn " <drgn

" Gettingwell "

Sunday, November 25, 2001 10:40 AM

flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

> is there a difference? if so, what?

>

> i was told that they are interchangeable, but flax is cheaper.

>

> thanks,

>

Hi Drgn,

 

They are not even close.

 

EPO is a member of the Omega 6 fatty acid family and Flax oil is the raw

material (most basic member) for the Omega 3

family.

========================

Good Health & Long Life,

Greg Watson, gowatson

USDA database (food breakdown) http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/

PubMed (research papers) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

DWIDP (nutrient analysis) http://www.walford.com/dwdemo/dw2b63demo.exe

KIM (omega analysis) http://ods.od.nih.gov/eicosanoids/KIM_Install.exe

[Guest guest]

-

" Pamela Southall " <southallp

 

Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:17 PM

Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

> --- drgn <drgn wrote:

> > is there a difference? if so, what?

> >

> > i was told that they are interchangeable, but flax

> > is cheaper.

>

> No, very different. Evening primrose oil is taken for

> its GLA (gamma-linolenic acid), a *good* omega-6 fat.

> GLA is taken for immune weakness, high cholesterol,

> arthritis, PMS and healthy skin. Flax seed oil is

> taken for its omega-3s. BTW, borage oil is a more

> economical and practical choice for GLA. A single

> capsule of borage oil usually contains at least four

> times the GLA of an evening primrose capsule.

>

Hi Pam,

 

Understand though that without ample Omega 3 EPA, the Omega 6 GLA will convert

into Omega 6 AA, which is not a good

thing.

 

If you use Omega 6 GLA, also use Omega 3 EPA. Many supplement companies are now

starting to realize this and are making

supplements with both Omega 6 GLA AND Omega 3 EPA.

========================

Good Health & Long Life,

Greg Watson, gowatson

USDA database (food breakdown) http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/

PubMed (research papers) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

DWIDP (nutrient analysis) http://www.walford.com/dwdemo/dw2b63demo.exe

KIM (omega analysis) http://ods.od.nih.gov/eicosanoids/KIM_Install.exe

[Guest guest]

Greg

 

Are you aware that Evening Primrose Oil inhibits DHA absorption? So you

should not take EPO and DHA together.

 

Tracy

 

-

" Greg Watson " <gowatson

 

Monday, 26 November 2001 13:18

Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

> -

> " Pamela Southall " <southallp

>

> Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:17 PM

> Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

>

>

> > --- drgn <drgn wrote:

> > > is there a difference? if so, what?

> > >

> > > i was told that they are interchangeable, but flax

> > > is cheaper.

> >

> > No, very different. Evening primrose oil is taken for

> > its GLA (gamma-linolenic acid), a *good* omega-6 fat.

> > GLA is taken for immune weakness, high cholesterol,

> > arthritis, PMS and healthy skin. Flax seed oil is

> > taken for its omega-3s. BTW, borage oil is a more

> > economical and practical choice for GLA. A single

> > capsule of borage oil usually contains at least four

> > times the GLA of an evening primrose capsule.

> >

> Hi Pam,

>

> Understand though that without ample Omega 3 EPA, the Omega 6 GLA will

convert into Omega 6 AA, which is not a good

> thing.

>

> If you use Omega 6 GLA, also use Omega 3 EPA. Many supplement companies

are now starting to realize this and are making

> supplements with both Omega 6 GLA AND Omega 3 EPA.

> ========================

> Good Health & Long Life,

> Greg Watson, gowatson

> USDA database (food breakdown) http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/

> PubMed (research papers) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

> DWIDP (nutrient analysis) http://www.walford.com/dwdemo/dw2b63demo.exe

> KIM (omega analysis)

http://ods.od.nih.gov/eicosanoids/KIM_Install.exe

>

>

>

>

> Getting well is done one step at a time, day by day, building health

> and well being.

>

> To learn more about the Gettingwell group,

> Subscription and list archives are at:

> Gettingwell

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

" Nick Grant " <nwgrant

 

Monday, November 26, 2001 3:38 PM

Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

> Greg

>

> Are you aware that Evening Primrose Oil inhibits DHA absorption? So you

> should not take EPO and DHA together.

 

Hi Tracy,

 

Have not heard that. Can you supply a reference?

 

This would seem strange as there are several medical studies showing a good

beneficial effect from taking the two at the

same time.

 

In this paper, it is shown that adding EPA to GLA results in a very great

benefit:

 

1) Reduced Omega 6 AA

2) Elevated Omega 6 DGLA (made from Omega 6 GLA)

3) Elevated Omega 3 EPA

 

Full text:

http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/8/1925

 

Abstract:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=1\

0917903 & dopt=Abstract

J Nutr 2000 Aug;130(8):1925-31 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut

Addition of eicosapentaenoic acid [EPA] to gamma-linolenic acid [GLA]

supplemented diets prevents serum arachidonic acid

[AA] accumulation in humans.

Barham JB, Edens MB, Fonteh AN, Johnson MM, Easter L, Chilton FH.

Department of Internal Medicine, Wake Forest University School of Medicine,

Winston-Salem, NC 27157, USA.

 

Previous studies reveal that supplementation of human diets with gamma-linolenic

acid (GLA) reduces the generation of

lipid mediators of inflammation and attenuates clinical symptoms of chronic

inflammatory disorders such as rheumatoid

arthritis.

 

However, we have shown that supplementation with this same fatty acid also

causes a marked increase in serum

arachidonate (AA) levels, a potentially harmful side effect.

 

The objective of this study was to design a supplementation strategy that

maintained the capacity of GLA to reduce lipid

mediators without causing elevations in serum AA levels.

 

Initial in vitro studies utilizing HEP-G2 liver cells revealed that addition of

eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) blocked

Delta-5-desaturase activity, the terminal enzymatic step in AA synthesis.

 

To test the in vivo effects of a GLA and EPA combination in humans, adult

volunteers consuming controlled diets

supplemented these diets with 3.0 g/d of GLA and EPA.

 

This supplementation strategy significantly increased serum levels of EPA, but

did not increase AA levels. EPA and the

elongation product of GLA, dihomo-gamma-linolenic acid (DGLA) levels in

neutrophil glycerolipids increased significantly

during the 3-wk supplementation period.

 

Neutrophils isolated from volunteers fed diets supplemented with GLA and EPA

released similar quantities of AA, but

synthesized significantly lower quantities of leukotrienes compared with their

neutrophils before supplementation.

 

This study revealed that a GLA and EPA supplement combination may be utilized to

reduce the synthesis of proinflammatory

AA metabolites, and importantly, not induce potentially harmful increases in

serum AA levels.

 

PMID: 10917903 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

========================

 

This is a very significant paper showing that using EPA AND GLA can achieve

significant health benefits.

 

Remember than without Omega 3 EPA, any Omega 6 GLA you take may be converted

into the undesirable Omega 6 AA. Omega 3

EPA controls the conversion of Omega 6 DGLA into Omega 6 AA. Most of the Omega

6 GLA is converted into the beneficial

Omega 6 DGLA. DLGA is the active form of GLA.

 

========================

Good Health & Long Life,

Greg Watson, gowatson

USDA database (food breakdown) http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/

PubMed (research papers) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

DWIDP (nutrient analysis) http://www.walford.com/dwdemo/dw2b63demo.exe

KIM (omega analysis) http://ods.od.nih.gov/eicosanoids/KIM_Install.exe

[Guest guest]

Well - you can take it up with Dra Martinez in Spain. She is one of the

world's leading experts on DHA. She discovered that children with

Peroxisomal biogenesis disorders lack DHA, and it was her that told me not

to give my daughter both together, because of what I have told you.

 

That is my reference - perhaps you could look up her work and why she thinks

this? I would be interested as to what you find.

 

Tracy

 

 

-

" Pamela Southall " <southallp

 

Monday, 26 November 2001 18:23

Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

>

> --- Nick Grant <nwgrant wrote:

> > Greg

> >

> > Are you aware that Evening Primrose Oil inhibits DHA

> > absorption? So you

> > should not take EPO and DHA together.

>

> Hi Tracy!

>

> My understanding is their effects are synergistic.

>

> Pam

>

>

>

> GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.

> http://geocities./ps/info1

>

>

> Getting well is done one step at a time, day by day, building health

> and well being.

>

> To learn more about the Gettingwell group,

> Subscription and list archives are at:

> Gettingwell

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

" Nick Grant " <nwgrant

 

Monday, November 26, 2001 4:03 PM

Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

> Well - you can take it up with Dra Martinez in Spain. She is one of the

> world's leading experts on DHA. She discovered that children with

> Peroxisomal biogenesis disorders lack DHA, and it was her that told me not

> to give my daughter both together, because of what I have told you.

 

Hi Track,

 

Sorry to hear about your daughter. :-((

 

Peroxisomal biogenesis disorder is not nice and inhibits the body from producing

DHA from DPA (which is produced from

EPA). This is not a normal body and thus you need to take this into account.

 

How is your daughter going?

 

Here is more info on Peroxisomal biogenesis disorders:

http://www.momtahan.com/mmartinez/

 

Good graphic showing how a growing baby needs DHA:

http://www.momtahan.com/mmartinez/_borders/Fig._1_DHA_graph_2.jpg

 

Nice photo of the doctor:

http://www.momtahan.com/mmartinez/#Biography

Her previous work led Dr. Martinez to discover a new abnormality in patients

with Zellweger's syndrome, a congenital

disease characterized by the lack of functioning cell peroxisomes. The new

abnormality found was a deficiency of the

most important omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acid in the brain and retina:

docosahexaenoic acid (DHA, 22:6w3). Since

some of the signs and symptoms that these patients exhibit are similar to those

observed in the experimental animal

model deprived of omega-3 fatty acids, the DHA deficiency found might be related

to the cause of Zellweger's syndrome.

With this rationale in mind, in 1990 Manuela Martinez devised a new treatment

for these patients, based in the

correction of their DHA deficiency. This treatment is producing significant

beneficial effects in patients with

relatively mild variants of Zellweger's syndrome, and is currently been used by

several other physicians in the world.

 

For this work on DHA and Zellweger's syndrome, Dr. Martinez was awarded Spain's

Queen Sofia's Prize for Research on the

Prevention of Deficiencies in 1998.

 

========================

Good Health & Long Life,

Greg Watson, gowatson

USDA database (food breakdown) http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/

PubMed (research papers) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

DWIDP (nutrient analysis) http://www.walford.com/dwdemo/dw2b63demo.exe

KIM (omega analysis) http://ods.od.nih.gov/eicosanoids/KIM_Install.exe

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg

 

My daughter is doing o.k. She has Neonataladrenolukodystrophy. (NALD).

So, from what you are saying - in unaffected people, a combination of DHA

and EPO wouldn't be a problem. In my daughter it is?

 

You are right about PBD's not being nice. They aren't. But she is very

cute. She has made it to the grand old age of 3 and a half. Her major

problems are with mucus (she chokes on it) and her bones. She has had 3

breaks. She doesn't absorb well. She is very loved. I do all I know how

to for her, but I wish I could find some more answers to help her condition.

I wish I could take her to Spain! Dr martinez's ideas are more radical than

those of the other doctors in the States whom I correspond with at KKI.

 

Any suggestions for her would be welcome - since I think you might know more

about DHA than I - maybe

 

You even knew about PBD's which was impressive. Well done. Most doctors

don't even know what that is. (unless of course you cheated and looked it

up on the Internet!

 

Thanks again

 

Tracy

 

p.s. Thanks for the info on PBD's but I am somewhat an expert on them by

now

[Guest guest]

-

" Nick Grant " <nwgrant

 

Monday, November 26, 2001 7:40 PM

Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

> Any suggestions for her would be welcome - since I think you might know more

> about DHA than I - maybe

 

What are the treatments you are currently using:

 

1) Diet

2) Supplements

3) Drugs

 

> You even knew about PBD's which was impressive. Well done. Most doctors

> don't even know what that is. (unless of course you cheated and looked it

> up on the Internet!

 

The Internet is an excellent learning tool :-)). However my knowledge of fatty

acids made it easier to understand what

is not happening (beta oxidation of 24:6w3) and to understand your problem.

 

Is it only long chain w3s that accumulate or are w6s also involved?

 

Are you using the Lorenzo oil method (4 parts GTO to 1 part GTE)?

 

With respect,

Greg

[Guest guest]

Hi Tracy

Have you looked into Hemp Seed Oil as a source of

GLA? It should be easier for the body to assimilate

even though it has other Fatty Acids. Maybe just

separate the DHA doses from the Hemp Oil doses

by at least 2 hours.

 

Rick

 

 

Gettingwell, " Nick Grant " <nwgrant@i...> wrote:

> Well - you can take it up with Dra Martinez in Spain. She is one of

the

> world's leading experts on DHA. She discovered that children with

> Peroxisomal biogenesis disorders lack DHA, and it was her that told

me not

> to give my daughter both together, because of what I have told you.

> That is my reference - perhaps you could look up her work and why

she thinks

> this? I would be interested as to what you find.

> Tracy

[Guest guest]

Udo Erasmus seems to think that hemp oil is a more balanced oil, in the very

long run, than flax oil. Prolonged use of flax oil, to the exclusion of

other oils and fats, can actually create an overdose of omega 3. The omega

3 & 6 ratio for hemp oil is, I believe, about 1 part om.3, to 2 or 3 parts

om. 6, which is near perfect.

Spectrum has been supplying an " organic " hemp oil. But, many people will

find it strange tasting, to say the least, after the rather sweet taste of

flax-oil. I like it; but I always alternate between flax and hemp.

-

<r.muenzer

 

Monday, November 26, 2001 3:51 PM

Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

> Hi Tracy

> Have you looked into Hemp Seed Oil as a source of

> GLA? It should be easier for the body to assimilate

> even though it has other Fatty Acids. Maybe just

> separate the DHA doses from the Hemp Oil doses

> by at least 2 hours.

>

> Rick

>

>

> Gettingwell, " Nick Grant " <nwgrant@i...> wrote:

> > Well - you can take it up with Dra Martinez in Spain. She is one of

> the

> > world's leading experts on DHA. She discovered that children with

> > Peroxisomal biogenesis disorders lack DHA, and it was her that told

> me not

> > to give my daughter both together, because of what I have told you.

> > That is my reference - perhaps you could look up her work and why

> she thinks

> > this? I would be interested as to what you find.

> > Tracy

>

>

>

>

> Getting well is done one step at a time, day by day, building health

> and well being.

>

> To learn more about the Gettingwell group,

> Subscription and list archives are at:

> Gettingwell

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

<r.muenzer

 

Tuesday, November 27, 2001 10:21 AM

Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

> Hi Tracy

> Have you looked into Hemp Seed Oil as a source of

> GLA? It should be easier for the body to assimilate

> even though it has other Fatty Acids. Maybe just

> separate the DHA doses from the Hemp Oil doses

> by at least 2 hours.

>

Hi Rick,

 

With respect, Peroxisomal diseases effect the bodies ability to burn very long

chain fatty acids and hence they

accumulate to much higher levels than normal in the cell membranes and force out

other beneficial fatty acids such as

EPA, DGLA & AA.

 

This is a very serious disease and ALL fatty acids in the diet must be closely

controlled.

 

DHA is one fatty acid which is safe to take (as it is one of the fatty acids the

peroxisomes make) but other shorter

chain fats much be closely controlled.

 

Here is a good site to learn more about this disorder:

http://www.peroxisome.org/Layperson/layperson.html

 

========================

Good Health & Long Life,

Greg Watson, gowatson

USDA database (food breakdown) http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/

PubMed (research papers) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

DWIDP (nutrient analysis) http://www.walford.com/dwdemo/dw2b63demo.exe

KIM (omega analysis) http://ods.od.nih.gov/eicosanoids/KIM_Install.exe

[Guest guest]

-

" John Polifronio " <counterpnt

 

Tuesday, November 27, 2001 10:27 AM

Re: Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

> Udo Erasmus seems to think that hemp oil is a more balanced oil, in the very

> long run, than flax oil. Prolonged use of flax oil, to the exclusion of

> other oils and fats, can actually create an overdose of omega 3. The omega

> 3 & 6 ratio for hemp oil is, I believe, about 1 part om.3, to 2 or 3 parts

> om. 6, which is near perfect.

> Spectrum has been supplying an " organic " hemp oil. But, many people will

> find it strange tasting, to say the least, after the rather sweet taste of

> flax-oil. I like it; but I always alternate between flax and hemp.

 

Hi John,

 

What happens is that too much Omega 3 LNA (flax oil) reduces Omega 6 LA

conversion into Omega 6 GLA.

 

Like all things too little and too much are both bad.

 

A US expert working committee has set recommendations of Omega intakes:

 

1) Omega 6 LA < 7 g

2) Omega 3 LNA ~ 2.5 g

3) Omega 3 EPA & DHA ~ 0.6 g

 

The KIM software will help you to analyze your diet to check where your Omega

intakes are.

 

========================

Good Health & Long Life,

Greg Watson, gowatson

USDA database (food breakdown) http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/

PubMed (research papers) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

DWIDP (nutrient analysis) http://www.walford.com/dwdemo/dw2b63demo.exe

KIM (omega analysis) http://ods.od.nih.gov/eicosanoids/KIM_Install.exe

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg & Tracy

 

My thought was there are a good number of pre enzymes in hemp

oil and the peroxisome problem may be more of an enzyme shortage.

See: http://www.thehempnut.com/nutrition.html

It is worth consideration.

BTW: What is 24:6w3 ?? I've heard of 22:6w3.

 

Rick

 

Greg Watson wrote:

 

> -

> <r.muenzer

>

> Tuesday, November 27, 2001 10:21 AM

> Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

>

> > Hi Tracy

> > Have you looked into Hemp Seed Oil as a source of

> > GLA? It should be easier for the body to assimilate

> > even though it has other Fatty Acids. Maybe just

> > separate the DHA doses from the Hemp Oil doses

> > by at least 2 hours.

> >

> Hi Rick,

>

> With respect, Peroxisomal diseases effect the bodies ability to burn very long

chain fatty acids and hence they

> accumulate to much higher levels than normal in the cell membranes and force

out other beneficial fatty acids such as

> EPA, DGLA & AA.

>

> This is a very serious disease and ALL fatty acids in the diet must be closely

controlled.

>

> DHA is one fatty acid which is safe to take (as it is one of the fatty acids

the peroxisomes make) but other shorter

> chain fats much be closely controlled.

>

> Here is a good site to learn more about this disorder:

> http://www.peroxisome.org/Layperson/layperson.html

>

[Guest guest]

-

" Richard Muenzer " <r.muenzer

 

Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:44 PM

Re: Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

> Hi Greg & Tracy

>

> My thought was there are a good number of pre enzymes in hemp

> oil and the peroxisome problem may be more of an enzyme shortage.

 

Hi Rick,

 

Peroxisomes are small organelles which exist inside bigger cells. There are

many organelles inside cells which do

various house keeping duties. One such duty is to oxidized / burn very long

chain fatty acids to shorter versions. For

some reason, the very long chain fatty acids are unable to get across the

peroxisome organelle's membrane and thus their

number increases to high level inside the main cell which then forces some of

the outer membrane fatty acids to be

replaced by the very long chain ones. This then results in a severe fatty acid

imbalance.

 

Digestive enzymes are of no help here.

 

Folks with this problem must avoid all fatty acids which can be elongated and

not delongated.

========================

Good Health & Long Life,

Greg Watson, gowatson

USDA database (food breakdown) http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/

PubMed (research papers) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

DWIDP (nutrient analysis) http://www.walford.com/dwdemo/dw2b63demo.exe

KIM (omega analysis) http://ods.od.nih.gov/eicosanoids/KIM_Install.exe

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg

 

I was thinking more of systemic enzymes. Don't enzymes work to convert

EFAs??

In the case of peroxisomes failure to convert would not the

test from: http://www.gsdl.com/assessments/fattyacids/

give any possible clue to a missing part of the EFA equation?

A missing part might account for incomplete systemic enzymes.

 

Rick

 

Greg Watson wrote:

Hi Rick,

 

> Peroxisomes are small organelles which exist inside bigger cells. There are

many organelles inside cells which do

> various house keeping duties. One such duty is to oxidized / burn very long

chain fatty acids to shorter versions. For

> some reason, the very long chain fatty acids are unable to get across the

peroxisome organelle's membrane and thus their

> number increases to high level inside the main cell which then forces some of

the outer membrane fatty acids to be

> replaced by the very long chain ones. This then results in a severe fatty

acid imbalance.

>

> Digestive enzymes are of no help here.

>

> Folks with this problem must avoid all fatty acids which can be elongated and

not delongated.

> ========================

[Guest guest]

-

" Richard Muenzer " <r.muenzer

 

Tuesday, November 27, 2001 2:05 PM

Re: Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

> Hi Greg

>

> I was thinking more of systemic enzymes. Don't enzymes work to convert

> EFAs??

 

Sure but most work in the liver to lengthen and desaturation (add double bonds).

All this lengthening needs to be

balanced by the fatty acids being used for something or you will wind up with

heaps and heaps of very long chain fatty

acids. Normally the elongation and desaturation process produces fatty acids

which are incorporated into cell membranes

and then turned into eicosanoids and thus used up. This production process is

somewhat controlled by the desaturase

enzymes D6D, D5D and D4D.

 

A normal body has the ability to either burn up unused very long chain fatty

acids or make them shorted and usable for

eicosanoid production. This is what peroxisome organelles do for fatty acids

that are longer than 20 chains. Shorter

than that and the mitochondrial organelles handle them.

 

Having a lack of peroxisome organelles capable of shortening very long chain

fatty acids inside your normal cells means

a person must very very careful with fat intake as too much will overload the

body with heaps of the not desirable very

long chain guys.

 

For DHA this is a very big problem as recent research seems to suggest the

normally accepted pathway of

 

20:5w3 (EPA)

+ Elongase elongation (adds 2 carbon atoms)

22:5w3 (DPA)

+ D4D desaturation (takes away 2 hydrogen atoms)

22:6w3 (DHA)

 

Instead works

 

20:5w3 (EPA)

+ Elongase elongation (add 2 carbon atoms)

22:5w3 (DPA)

+ Elongase elongation (adds 2 more carbon atoms)

24:5w3

+ D4D desaturation (takes away 2 hydrogen atoms)

24:6w3

+ Beta oxidation in peroxisome (takes away 2 carbon atoms)

22:6w3 (DHA) <<< Note the shorter chain length after Beta

Oxidation <<<

 

Thus low DHA levels may indicate a problem with peroxisome beta oxidation and

dietary DHA will be a big help. However

obtaining a good Omega balance may not be possible as any EPA will feed the pool

of very long chain fatty acids and not

be converted into DHA due to lacking D4D and peroxisome beta oxidation.

 

========================

Good Health & Long Life,

Greg Watson, gowatson

USDA database (food breakdown) http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/

PubMed (research papers) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

DWIDP (nutrient analysis) http://www.walford.com/dwdemo/dw2b63demo.exe

KIM (omega analysis) http://ods.od.nih.gov/eicosanoids/KIM_Install.exe

[Guest guest]

Hi again Greg

 

Beks is on DHA/AA

Usanimals ( multi-vit and mineral) by Usana

Walnut oil

Slippery Elm

Iron ( I relented to this)

 

That's about it.

 

Her disease differs from Lorenzo's oil - that is ALD, so the regime is

different.

 

As to the W 3's and W 6's - Rebecca - are you there? Becs will know the

answer to that one. All I know is it is the very long chain fatty acids

that are involved in her disorder. She cannot eat much with Phytanic Acid

in it - like greens, but I am wondering if Barley Greens would be

o.k....does anyone know if they are high in Phytanic Acid? I can put pretty

much any liquid down her tube.

 

She had a IM shot of Vitamin K today to try and stop the bleeding. Hope it

works. I also have a script for Cholic Acid. This is a trial drug to see

if we can get her liver going to produce bile....

 

Hope this helps - any advice on what might help her would be great?

 

 

>

[Guest guest]

-

" Nick Grant " <nwgrant

 

Tuesday, November 27, 2001 3:25 PM

Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

> Hi again Greg

>

> Beks is on DHA/AA

> Usanimals ( multi-vit and mineral) by Usana

> Walnut oil

> Slippery Elm

> Iron ( I relented to this)

>

> That's about it.

>

> Her disease differs from Lorenzo's oil - that is ALD, so the regime is

> different.

>

> As to the W 3's and W 6's - Rebecca - are you there? Becs will know the

> answer to that one. All I know is it is the very long chain fatty acids

> that are involved in her disorder. She cannot eat much with Phytanic Acid

> in it - like greens, but I am wondering if Barley Greens would be

> o.k....does anyone know if they are high in Phytanic Acid? I can put pretty

> much any liquid down her tube.

>

> She had a IM shot of Vitamin K today to try and stop the bleeding. Hope it

> works. I also have a script for Cholic Acid. This is a trial drug to see

> if we can get her liver going to produce bile....

>

> Hope this helps - any advice on what might help her would be great?

 

Have you done a red blood cell membrane fatty acid analysis on Beks?

 

I hope the Vit K works but I suspect her membrane fatty acids ratios are way

off.

 

Walnut oil is rich in Omega 3 LNA. Is there some reason you are using it?

 

I suggest small doses of an EPA only oil (OmegaBrite) might help. The idea is

to feed her enough EPA to help the

eicosanoid balance but not too much to spill over into very long chain

production. By using separate EPA and DHA

capsules, you can control the ratio of each instead of using the ratio in fish

oil capsules. Boosting membrane EPA will

lower AA and elevate DGLA, all of which should help Beks heaps!

 

I would also suggest using precursor Omega 3 LNA (flax oil / walnut oil) or

Omega 6 LA is not a good idea as you have

little control of how much is converted into the active forms.

 

By using a red blood cell fatty acid analysis as a tuning tool and individual

EPA, DHA, GLA and AA supplements you

should be able to feed Beks just enough of these fatty acids to get a better

eicosanoid and Omega membrane balance and

not have any excess converted into the undesirable very long chain forms.

 

Also a very low fat diet will help the body to burn up the unwanted very long

chain fatty acids.

 

Here is the OmegaBrite site:

http://www.omegabrite.com

 

The capsules were developed to treat bipolar depression (which is also a disease

of unbalanced Omega ratio).

 

How much DHA & Walnut oil do you give her and when do you administer it? Where

do you get the DHA? Are you using the

algae derived DHA capsules?

 

Best Regards,

Greg

[Guest guest]

-

" Nick Grant " <nwgrant

 

Tuesday, November 27, 2001 3:25 PM

Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

> She cannot eat much with Phytanic Acid

> in it - like greens, but I am wondering if Barley Greens would be

> o.k....does anyone know if they are high in Phytanic Acid?

 

Checkout:

PHYTANIC ACID IN FOODS

http://www.alphalink.com.au/~dijon/index4.htm

 

This condition (the lack of the ability to oxidize / breakdown phytanic acid) is

also involved in faulty peroxisome

organelle operation.

 

All the best,

Greg :-((

[Guest guest]

-

" Nick Grant " <nwgrant

 

Tuesday, November 27, 2001 3:25 PM

Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

> She cannot eat much with Phytanic Acid

> in it - like greens, but I am wondering if Barley Greens would be

> o.k....does anyone know if they are high in Phytanic Acid?

 

From :

http://www.alphalink.com.au/~dijon/index3.htm

DIET TREATMENT OF REFSUM'S DISEASE

This information and the diet which is on the following page has been supplied

by the Westminster Hospital, London.

1993.

 

In 1963 it was shown that sufferers from Refsum's disease accumulate phytanic

acid in serum and body tissues and

subsequent work demonstrated that these people lacked an enzyme essential to the

metabolism and elimination of this

branched chain fatty acid.

 

It has since been shown that the phytanic acid which accumulates is taken in in

the diet and if this can be avoided, the

condition of patients can be substantially improved.

 

Originally little was known about the amount of phytanic acid in foods: it was

known to occur in fats from cows, sheep

and fish and possibly in others, so an overall low fat diet was prescribed. In

addition little was known about the

occurrence of free phytol in foods, so all green vegetables and some fruits were

also forbidden as potential sources of

phytol because this can be changed into phytanic acid in the body.

 

The diet was unpalatable and very restricted and supplementary vitamins had to

be taken.

 

It has now been shown that the phytol in green foods is bound to chlorophyll and

is not absorbed and that all fruits and

vegetables can be included in the diet.

 

^^^^^^^^^^ PLEASE NOTE THE ABOVE ^^^^^^^^^^^^^..gw

 

A systematic analysis of foods from all food groups has identified the

significant sources of phytanic acid as being

from animal sources and allowed the prescription of a less restrictive diet.

 

PRINCIPLES

 

1. All foods known to contain phytanic acid and free phytol should

Be avoided. In the U.K. this means all foods from fish and

animals which feed on grass - i.e. - cows, sheep and goats.

 

2. One should eat sufficiently well to PREVENT LOSS OF WEIGHT.

When the weight loss falls body fat stores are used for energy and

the stored phytanic acid is released into the blood causing problems.

This may even happen over a short time scale so a REGULAR

EATING PATTERN of three meals a day plus snacks if necessary

is better than long periods without food, followed by a large meal.

 

3. Refsum's patients should aim to choose their diet from a VARIETY

of foods so as to obtain all the nutrients needed for overall good

health. In this they are no different from the rest of the population.

 

Based on the analysis of a sample of foods from different food groups, the diet

table divides foods into three groups.

 

GROUP ONE - Free Foods

 

Foods where no phytanic acid was found. These foods can be taken freely.

 

GROUP TWO - Medium Risk Foods

 

Foods found to contain up to about 8 mg. phytanic acid in a

normal serving.

Although Refsum's patients can break down some phytanic acid (10 - 30 mg. per

day) they should aim to take in as little

as possible so only ONE food from this group should be eaten each day and

preferably not on a regular basis.

 

During illness they should be avoided completely.

 

GROUP THREE - High Risk Foods

 

Foods found to contain high levels of phytanic acid - above 10 mg and up to

700mg/100g (in fish oils). Also this group

contains those processed foods containing ingredients known to be high in

phytanic acid - cream, butter and " animal

fats " which are often in fish oils.

 

Foods in this Group three should be avoided completely.

 

PHYTOL CONTENT OF FOODS

 

Free phytol can be changed into phytanic acid in the body so patients with

Refsum's disease should obviously avoid

taking it in the diet.

 

Little information on the free phytol in food has been available but recent

analyses of a range of foods have found none

in meat and small amounts in some foods of plant origin. Provided no one food

is eaten in large quantities there are no

grounds at present for avoiding any food on the basis of its free phytol content

alone.

 

Food list:

http://www.alphalink.com.au/~dijon/index4.htm

 

Hope this helps,

Greg

[Guest guest]

Rick,

 

It's not so much about enzymes being 'missing' (although this is certainly

true in Zellwegers syndrome) it's that the peroxisomal enzymes don't work

properly in kids with PBD's specifically. These enzymes that are needed to

break down fats in our body. One has to embark very carefully on which oils

to use with kids with PBD specifically - my late son William suffered with a

PBD so it's something I know a wee bit about. Enough to know that it gets

very complicated and you can't just give these children every single VLCFA

around (grin!) Even though on the surface, this would be the obvious thing

to do. But heck, sometimes life just isn't like that.

 

However, hemp oil might be worth considering.....but it would depend on each

child's diet, how much of the long chain fatty acids have or have not been

eliminated from their diet and what the child can cope with....enough to

make your eyes stand on stalks and go cross eyed!

 

To give you an example of what Greg is saying about the elevation of VLCFA

and yet forcing others out of the picture like DHA:

 

One of the 'markers' used to diagnose PBD's is the elevation of VLCFA levels

in a skin biopsy. My son William had a skin biopsy done, which came back

showing he had raised levels of certain VLCFA: I think it's no 26 or

something (I'm trying to find the letter that has this all - but my filing

system aka mess on the floor alludes me at present!) Yet, in his blood

analysis, he was extremely short in Omega 3's and Omega 6's - DHA being one

of the prime suspects.

 

By the time we had the skin biopsy done- we had already begun the process

of putting him on a special diet (which eliminated some of the long chain

fatty acids and phytanic acid - which is another story in itself! I tell you

this thing is complicated and effects more than just the VLCFA's) and when

his results came back - they showed that he was a 'mild case' of a PBD.

That's because some of his VLCFA's levels were normal when they shouldn't

have been. I put this down to the change in diet. Because, clinically

speaking, William was not a mild case at all he was deteriorating and at a

rapid rate.

 

Anyway, I hope this goes towards making some sense. And this is only one

part of the picture of a Peroxisomal Biogenesis Disorder: I haven't started

on the adrenal gland failure, the liver problems and the resulting bone

problems (trust me: there is a link btwn liver function and bones!),

bleeding problems, poor muscle tone, and seizures. I've probably left

something out: oh YES: these children, despite all of this: have an

incredible courage, and strength that I only wish to have.

 

Rebecca.

 

 

 

 

-

" Richard Muenzer " <r.muenzer

 

Tuesday, November 27, 2001 3:14 PM

Re: Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

> Hi Greg & Tracy

>

> My thought was there are a good number of pre enzymes in hemp

> oil and the peroxisome problem may be more of an enzyme shortage.

> See: http://www.thehempnut.com/nutrition.html

> It is worth consideration.

> BTW: What is 24:6w3 ?? I've heard of 22:6w3.

>

> Rick

>

> Greg Watson wrote:

>

> > -

> > <r.muenzer

> >

> > Tuesday, November 27, 2001 10:21 AM

> > Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

> >

> > > Hi Tracy

> > > Have you looked into Hemp Seed Oil as a source of

> > > GLA? It should be easier for the body to assimilate

> > > even though it has other Fatty Acids. Maybe just

> > > separate the DHA doses from the Hemp Oil doses

> > > by at least 2 hours.

> > >

> > Hi Rick,

> >

> > With respect, Peroxisomal diseases effect the bodies ability to burn

very long chain fatty acids and hence they

> > accumulate to much higher levels than normal in the cell membranes and

force out other beneficial fatty acids such as

> > EPA, DGLA & AA.

> >

> > This is a very serious disease and ALL fatty acids in the diet must be

closely controlled.

> >

> > DHA is one fatty acid which is safe to take (as it is one of the fatty

acids the peroxisomes make) but other shorter

> > chain fats much be closely controlled.

> >

> > Here is a good site to learn more about this disorder:

> > http://www.peroxisome.org/Layperson/layperson.html

> >

>

>

> Getting well is done one step at a time, day by day, building health

> and well being.

>

> To learn more about the Gettingwell group,

> Subscription and list archives are at:

> Gettingwell

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

" Brent & Rebecca Taiaroa " <bexs

 

Wednesday, November 28, 2001 10:50 AM

Re: Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

> Rick,

>

> It's not so much about enzymes being 'missing' (although this is certainly

> true in Zellwegers syndrome) it's that the peroxisomal enzymes don't work

> properly in kids with PBD's specifically. These enzymes that are needed to

> break down fats in our body. One has to embark very carefully on which oils

> to use with kids with PBD specifically - my late son William suffered with a

> PBD so it's something I know a wee bit about. Enough to know that it gets

> very complicated and you can't just give these children every single VLCFA

> around (grin!) Even though on the surface, this would be the obvious thing

> to do. But heck, sometimes life just isn't like that.

 

But by using the red blood cell membrane fatty acid analysis you can see the

effect of the dietary fats and YES you can

now get EPA, GLA and DHA as separate oils so it is possible to design a diet

with just enough of these active oils to

get a good membrane ratio and yet not enough to overspill into very long chain

production.

 

The problem with using raw plant oils is that you cant control the conversion

process from the inactive forms into the

active form close enough to get the right amount of the 4 active forms and not

too much which then spills over into very

long chain production and the resultant problems with the lack of the ability to

eliminate these unwanted fatty acids.

 

> However, hemp oil might be worth considering.....but it would depend on each

> child's diet, how much of the long chain fatty acids have or have not been

> eliminated from their diet and what the child can cope with....enough to

> make your eyes stand on stalks and go cross eyed!

 

Hi Rebecca,

 

Hemp oil, like flax or fish oil has many oils and the ratios and conversion

efficiencies will make it almost impossible

to get the membrane ratio of the active forms right.

 

The key is the red blood cell membrane fatty acid analysis and then using small

doses of the 4 active Omegas to

eliminate unwanted very long chains (by avoiding too much Omegas) and more of

the good active forms in a balance

fashion.

 

========================

Good Health & Long Life,

Greg Watson, gowatson

USDA database (food breakdown) http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/

PubMed (research papers) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

DWIDP (nutrient analysis) http://www.walford.com/dwdemo/dw2b63demo.exe

KIM (omega analysis) http://ods.od.nih.gov/eicosanoids/KIM_Install.exe

[Guest guest]

It's been a while since I read the Erasmus books on fats, but I recall that

he believed hemp oil to be the most balanced of all the oils for human

consumption. I've written to this list before, to say that Spectrum markets

an " organic " hemp oil. I have a bottle in my freezer at this writing, which

I use less often than I use Barlean's Twin (Flax/Borage). I also believe

that Erasmus pointed out that hemp oil has a longer " fresh " life in the

frige or freezer. However, recent laws concerning the legality of using

hemp in any ingestible form, may take the Spectrum/hemp product off the

market.

I'm going to look for a Spectrum e-mail address, and ask them about this

matter.

John P.

-

" Greg Watson " <gowatson

 

Monday, November 26, 2001 4:02 PM

Re: Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

 

 

> -

> <r.muenzer

>

> Tuesday, November 27, 2001 10:21 AM

> Re: flax seed oil vs evening primrose oil

>

>

> > Hi Tracy

> > Have you looked into Hemp Seed Oil as a source of

> > GLA? It should be easier for the body to assimilate

> > even though it has other Fatty Acids. Maybe just

> > separate the DHA doses from the Hemp Oil doses

> > by at least 2 hours.

> >

> Hi Rick,

>

> With respect, Peroxisomal diseases effect the bodies ability to burn very

long chain fatty acids and hence they

> accumulate to much higher levels than normal in the cell membranes and

force out other beneficial fatty acids such as

> EPA, DGLA & AA.

>

> This is a very serious disease and ALL fatty acids in the diet must be

closely controlled.

>

> DHA is one fatty acid which is safe to take (as it is one of the fatty

acids the peroxisomes make) but other shorter

> chain fats much be closely controlled.

>

> Here is a good site to learn more about this disorder:

> http://www.peroxisome.org/Layperson/layperson.html

>

> ========================

> Good Health & Long Life,

> Greg Watson, gowatson

> USDA database (food breakdown) http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/

> PubMed (research papers) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

> DWIDP (nutrient analysis) http://www.walford.com/dwdemo/dw2b63demo.exe

> KIM (omega analysis)

http://ods.od.nih.gov/eicosanoids/KIM_Install.exe

>

>

>

>

> Getting well is done one step at a time, day by day, building health

> and well being.

>

> To learn more about the Gettingwell group,

> Subscription and list archives are at:

> Gettingwell

>

>