Morgellons

June 20, 2008

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Jeff Smoley <yuliqigong

wrote:

> Hi,

>

> I spoke to Bill and he let me borrow his razor.

>

> #1. Initial report of disease was significantly prior to the invention

> of GMOs.

> Thus, the probable original cause is not GMOs.

> #2. Why do we contract an infectious illness? Stagnant Qi, Qi blockage,

> etc. Translation, your immune system is not responding to the infection.

>

I cannot think of any situation in which stagnant qi would be considered an

immune system weakness. In CM everything is connected, but your translation

is incorrect on its face, meaning without going too deeply.

#7. What known life form can give off psycho-active substances (that can

> cause everything from headaches to hallucinations to depression)? Fungi.

>

That's interesting.

>

> #8. What known life form has new species being found under the nose of

> biologists ( http://www.species.asu.edu/2008_species07.php ) ? Fungi.

>

Just fungi? I don't think so.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=new+species (3 million hits)

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=new+bacteria (2 million hits)

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=new+fungi (.6 million hits)

> #9. What kind of DNA is supposedly found in the lesions of Morgellons

> sufferers? Fungi.

>

Show me that reference. Which lab performed this testing? Who paid for it

and what is their interest in the outcome?

DNA testing doesn't sound like something one can do in a garage. There must

be a decent paper trail on this.

#10. What known life form has been found to be difficult to diagnose and

> treat when not found in the well known locations? Fungi.

>

And bacteria and neurological lesions, and everything that makes the

television show " House " fun to watch.

Bill wants his razor back now. Do we need to do any further dissection?

>

I'm guessing that you're talking about Occam's razor?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

I actually believe that this is a useful idea. It basically says that

whatever the most simple explanation for something, that's probably the best

choice. Simple in this context suggests the one thing that are common to all

observations.

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

June 20, 2008

Interestingly though, some doctors who are treating morgellons

patients now appear to be saying that Western medicine's antifungals

such as diflucan do not work in these patients and that they are

having more results by using selected antibiotic and antiparasitic

medications.

Chinese Traditional Medicine , Jeff Smoley <yuliqigong wrote:

>

> Hi,

>

> I spoke to Bill and he let me borrow his razor.

>

> #1. Initial report of disease was significantly prior to the invention

> of GMOs.

> Thus, the probable original cause is not GMOs.

> #2. Why do we contract an infectious illness? Stagnant Qi, Qi blockage,

> etc. Translation, your immune system is not responding to the infection.

> #3. Why doesn't the immune system respond? A. It is weak. B. I can't

> recognize the agent.

> #4. What known life form can grow at sufficient speed as to seem to

> move? Answer: Fungi.

> #5. What known life form can also produce cellulose (fibers)? Fungi.

> (mycellium).

> #6. What known life form is resistant to antibiotics? Fungi.

> #7. What known life form can give off psycho-active substances (that

can

> cause everything from headaches to hallucinations to depression)? Fungi.

> #8. What known life form has new species being found under the nose of

> biologists ( http://www.species.asu.edu/2008_species07.php ) ? Fungi.

> #9. What kind of DNA is supposedly found in the lesions of Morgellons

> sufferers? Fungi.

> #10. What known life form has been found to be difficult to diagnose

and

> treat when not found in the well known locations? Fungi.

>

> Bill wants his razor back now. Do we need to do any further dissection?

>

> Jeff

>

> --

> Jeff Smoley LMT MA 52162

> www.JadePowerQigong.com

> www.yuliqigong.com

> www.SomaticSA.com

>

June 20, 2008

This is at least something we can confirm. Do you have any specific

references to share? In other words, where did you get this information?

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 11:58 AM, baidanwu34 <baidanwu34 wrote:

> Interestingly though, some doctors who are treating morgellons

> patients now appear to be saying that Western medicine's antifungals

> such as diflucan do not work in these patients and that they are

> having more results by using selected antibiotic and antiparasitic

> medications.

>

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

June 20, 2008

Hi Al, I recently read that practiioners were dropping antifungals on

another site, and now I cannot find the reference. It was quoting I

believe one of the practitioners treating many morgellons patients.

For obvious reasons (doctors are reluctant to be identified with this

disease although I feel they are to be commended for their compassion)

identities are hard to come by. Antifungals do however seem to have

been deleted from the protocol.

Al, I don't know if you have read this article which is in a peer

reviewed journal:

www.morgellons.com/AJCDerm1.pdf

Also a letter to the editor from the Journal of American Academy of

Dermatology by William T. Harvey who has studied these patients with a

team of others:

http://www.eblue.org/article/PIIS0190962207001958/fulltext

Although not in an offical publication this is a letter from Harvey to

the Morgellons Research Foundation (no longer on the MRF site, but

copied here because I was able to locate it on another site):

Message from Dr. Harvey

Wednesday, October 3, 2007 9:30:54 AM

Re: Treatment for Morgellons Disease

We are moving closer to understanding the mechanism of this illness

and have almost completed the defining paper for submission to a

medical journal for review. Early in 2007, we did a detailed study of

25 consecutive presumed Morgellons patients here, collecting over 407

parameters on each, from laboratory values, to physical exam findings,

to detailed medical history. All parameters were mathematically

collated to give us a first " look " at a Morgellons " average " . As the

illness began with Ms Leitao's search for a name for her son's illness

based solely on filaments she saw, all registrants have been purely

self-diagnosed...again mainly based on the appearance of skin

filaments, then later movement sensation.

The summary data was extremely revealing, and briefly, sowed us

consistent abnormalities in immune function, chronic systemic

inflammation, multi-system involvement...and perhaps what is turning

out to be most important, the presence in all of actual parasites. By

August 2007, we had micrographs of at least two genera and several

species. The latter are so similar that we needed help in answering

the question: exactly what species are they, as this impacts treatment

significantly. As I speak, we have assembled a group of scientists at

a state university laboratory with equipment capable of giving us the

answer. In the group are three veterinarians, a parasitologist, a

mycologist, an FBI trained forensics Nurse Practitioner, a PhD

invertebrate zoologist, a psychiatrist experienced in infectious

causes of behavioral change...and me. Hopefully, they will close the

loop for us in the next few months.

Meanwhile, we knew enough months ago to resolve the illness in most,

with two caveats. (1) Close to 90% get 90% well if we use intravenous

antibiotics strictly tailored for one bacterium for several months.

Hundreds have done this safely. The same antibiotics given orally take

about 8 months. (2) With the finding of the most common parasite

species, the use of one of two anti-helmenthic antibiotics will

resolve many symptoms, especially the skin manifestation in days...but

only in about half. Knowing the species in each individual may resolve

this.

All that said, treatment has to be guided carefully with regular

testing of liver, kidney and marrow effects. A clinician must have

extensive experience to avoid the errors we made. As we are licensed

physicians, it is not permissible for us to write treatment protocols

on line. This isn't done for control, but for patient safety and

steering to a good outcome.

FYI, this phenomenon in NOT chronic Lyme disease, it's not Chronic

Fatigue Syndrome, and we are now certain it is NOT Delusions of

Parasitosis. The latter in fact, will be the thrust of the paper: the

DOP label has resulted in inappropriate and incomplete treatment of

countless people who never recovered. Once the final DNA sequencing is

done and the paper completed, it will be published with treatment

protocol(s) for all clinicians world wide to use. Meanwhile, as both

primary organisms create brain limbic system abnormalities, we now

understand that the delusional component of the illness is real in

many affected (but far from all), so correct psychotropic medication

can help that component even if treated purely independently. Nearly

half the Morgellons are bipolar, but became so AFTER the parasite

infection began. Others have formal diagnoses of extreme OCD or

ADD/ADHD. The prevalence in children is no different from adults, and

there appear to be no

gender or race differences.

We know that effective treatment can be obtained in Colorado from

physicians who worked with us in Colorado Springs. Otherwise the globe

is literally full of practitioners offering cures without factual

basis. Our task is now focused: to complete and write the defining

paper and provide the answer to everybody.

Our best to all of you. Thanks.

William Harvey, MD, MS, MPH

Board Chairman, MRF

Best, Sarah

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Al Stone " <al wrote:

>

> This is at least something we can confirm. Do you have any specific

> references to share? In other words, where did you get this information?

>

> On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 11:58 AM, baidanwu34 <baidanwu34 wrote:

>

> > Interestingly though, some doctors who are treating morgellons

> > patients now appear to be saying that Western medicine's antifungals

> > such as diflucan do not work in these patients and that they are

> > having more results by using selected antibiotic and antiparasitic

> > medications.

> >

>

> --

> , DAOM

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>

June 20, 2008

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 1:36 PM, baidanwu34 <baidanwu34 wrote:

> Al, I don't know if you have read this article which is in a peer

> reviewed journal:

>

> www.morgellons.com/AJCDerm1.pdf

>

No, I didn't see this earlier when I was searching. Mostly because I was

spelling the name wrong.

This is a good article, but it does not state that Morgellon's is anything

more than something important to research. It certainly does initiate the

scholarly debate, so I have no problem with it.

Looking at the rest of the research I did find, it appears that there is

more leaning toward the " delusions of parasitosis " than an actual parasite.

There is an element of democracy in science, so right now, the trend favors

the delusions, but again, the debate is taking place and so perhaps in the

future, we'll be able to approach this with more evidence and less opinion.

In other news...

> Meanwhile, as both

> primary organisms create brain limbic system abnormalities, we now

> understand that the delusional component of the illness is real in

> many affected (but far from all), so correct psychotropic medication

> can help that component even if treated purely independently. Nearly

> half the Morgellons are bipolar, but became so AFTER the parasite

> infection began. Others have formal diagnoses of extreme OCD or

> ADD/ADHD.

>

I'm not convinced, this " AFTER " point is accurate. There's a new trend in

Western medicine in the treatment of chronic pain. The principle is simple,

to treat the pain, treat the depression. Seems to work well, too. I've run

in to this a few times in the acupuncture pain clinic too. Treat the

depression or emotions, or spirit, however you want to think of it, and the

pain improves or goes away. Which came first is a very good question, and in

Chinese medicine we're often dealing with checken/egg relationships. Fact

is, they appear together and so you gotta at least consider the depression

causing the chronic pain (or Morgellons).

I wonder how Morgellons would respond to treating the spirit instead of the

parasite? One article among those listed at pubmed describes doctors meeting

patients halfway. They provide drugs for the psyche, and prescribe topical

ointments for the sores, just to play along more or less. The author isn't

quite that crass, it really reads as an act of compassion. But it is still

the right thing to do in my opinion at this point (treat the spirit AND the

sores when visible.) In this case again, the goal is to treat what you see,

not what the patient's self-diagnosis, because as one of the two articles

you've quoted states, you gotta know what kind of bacteria/fungus/parasite

you're treating before you attempt to kill it.

-al.

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

June 21, 2008

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Al Stone " <al wrote:

>

.... you gotta know what kind of bacteria/fungus/parasite

> you're treating before you attempt to kill it.

>

> -al.

>

This may be harder to do, and more long-term, but maybe you have to

just stop making a cozy home for the bacteria/fungus/parasite. I

would therefore suggest that maybe you don't always have to know the

kind of bacteria/fugus/parasite you are dealing with.

30 years ago, I went off of the heavy red meat/dairy product, lots of

ice cream/coca cola/alcohol/fastfood/ heavily processed,

chemically-adulterated etc. diet I had been eating for much of my

life. I ate a mostly vegan, lots of vegetables, no-sugar, no-meat

regime. Lots of well-cooked food.

Well, lo & behold, months later, I discharged worms galore. Never

knew I had them, so I never took any kind of medicine or herb to kill

& expel them. I do not think it was an accident that they came out at

this time.

I no longer eat that strict diet, but still I minimize the unhealthful

products of my youth.

June 21, 2008

I think Harvey's letter is interesting in that he notes that someone

somewhere is seeing some sort of parasites in some people who describe

morgellons symptoms. He emphatically states that the illness is not

DOP. I think that the reason parasites and other organisms have not

been found is because the funding to study anything

about morgellons symptoms has been so limited. Most (all) of what has

been done so far is from private funding. The latest study

which is just being started by Kaiser Permanente and the Armed Forces

Institute of Pathology has very limited government funding.

It is awful that patients are automatically ignored (mainly I believe

because they are women) when they walk into a doctor's office

suffering from parasitic skin symptoms. Voila, most women have an

almost instant DOP diagnosis without anyone really looking at them at

all. Frequently the patient's lesions were neither biopsied for

parasites nor cultured for infection. How is that doctoring with any

real validity? Remember when any menstrual problems were all in a

woman's head? Women have always been cavalierly dismissed by men when

it comes to illness. Look at how women for years were overlooked for

treatment of heart disease. Women were assumed to be less likely to

have heart disease and so the ones who did develop the disease were

often more likely to die as a result of a late diagnosis than their

male counterparts, just like minorities did/do.

It is true the one peer morgellons article I did find does not have

a lot of study behind it. How could it though, as morgellons has been

dismissed soundly by doctors ever since people started to complain

about having such symptoms. Mostly women of course, though there are

some men too (poor fellows, with the current climate of thought I

guess they, too, would be found to be not right mentally), one

of whom found the symptoms so intolerable he committed suicide. All of

this sort of right thinking by doctors is with no real study of

morgellons symptoms. Just surmises and guesses, hardly the scientific

method they so often espouse. How can this sort of diagnosis be

considered anything less than substandard as there is no science

behind it?

Here is something else to think about since there seems to be no real

scientific study of morgellons so far. How many

doctors have ever done what they should to rule out a real

disease state before labeling people with a DOP diagnosis (especially

as most doctors have NO background to diagnose serious mental

illness, having little to NO specialized study in psychology)?:

http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/idepc/dtopics/pests/dp.html

" Delusional Parasitosis

Diagnosis

The diagnosis of DP is a lengthy process involving the following steps:

1. Take a careful case history.

2. Perform a complete physical examination and laboratory

evaluation, including skin scrapings and/or biopsies, blood counts,

chemistry profile, thyroid function tests, and vitamin B12 levels.

3. Rule out other medical conditions (eg, diabetes, atopic

dermatitis, and lymphoblastomas) with skin manifestations that can

appear to be caused by arthropods.

4. Work with entomologists or parasitologists to rule out true

infestations (eg, scabies mites, animal mites, lice, fleas, and bed bugs).

5. Rule out other organic causes (eg, allergies and contact

dermatitis).

6. Rule out history of drug abuse (especially in younger or male

patients). "

This is just an excerpt from the article. After reading what

morgellons patients are describing about their doctor visits it would

appear that doctors are not doing just about most of the above steps,

especially step 4. Many seem to be doing none of them. How can any of

what these physicians are doing be considered good doctoring if they

just decide a patient is DOP without doing a careful examination,

especially if they have no background in mental health issues? It is

like a doctor talking about diet when most of them have had at most

one course in college about nutrition. It is a joke.

best, Sarah

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " baidanwu34 " <baidanwu34

wrote:

>

> Hi Al, I recently read that practiioners were dropping antifungals on

> another site, and now I cannot find the reference. It was quoting I

> believe one of the practitioners treating many morgellons patients.

> For obvious reasons (doctors are reluctant to be identified with this

> disease although I feel they are to be commended for their compassion)

> identities are hard to come by. Antifungals do however seem to have

> been deleted from the protocol.

>

> Al, I don't know if you have read this article which is in a peer

> reviewed journal:

>

> www.morgellons.com/AJCDerm1.pdf

>

> Also a letter to the editor from the Journal of American Academy of

> Dermatology by William T. Harvey who has studied these patients with a

> team of others:

>

> http://www.eblue.org/article/PIIS0190962207001958/fulltext

>

> Although not in an offical publication this is a letter from Harvey to

> the Morgellons Research Foundation (no longer on the MRF site, but

> copied here because I was able to locate it on another site):

>

> Message from Dr. Harvey

> Wednesday, October 3, 2007 9:30:54 AM

> Re: Treatment for Morgellons Disease

>

> We are moving closer to understanding the mechanism of this illness

> and have almost completed the defining paper for submission to a

> medical journal for review. Early in 2007, we did a detailed study of

> 25 consecutive presumed Morgellons patients here, collecting over 407

> parameters on each, from laboratory values, to physical exam findings,

> to detailed medical history. All parameters were mathematically

> collated to give us a first " look " at a Morgellons " average " . As the

> illness began with Ms Leitao's search for a name for her son's illness

> based solely on filaments she saw, all registrants have been purely

> self-diagnosed...again mainly based on the appearance of skin

> filaments, then later movement sensation.

>

> The summary data was extremely revealing, and briefly, sowed us

> consistent abnormalities in immune function, chronic systemic

> inflammation, multi-system involvement...and perhaps what is turning

> out to be most important, the presence in all of actual parasites. By

> August 2007, we had micrographs of at least two genera and several

> species. The latter are so similar that we needed help in answering

> the question: exactly what species are they, as this impacts treatment

> significantly. As I speak, we have assembled a group of scientists at

> a state university laboratory with equipment capable of giving us the

> answer. In the group are three veterinarians, a parasitologist, a

> mycologist, an FBI trained forensics Nurse Practitioner, a PhD

> invertebrate zoologist, a psychiatrist experienced in infectious

> causes of behavioral change...and me. Hopefully, they will close the

> loop for us in the next few months.

>

> Meanwhile, we knew enough months ago to resolve the illness in most,

> with two caveats. (1) Close to 90% get 90% well if we use intravenous

> antibiotics strictly tailored for one bacterium for several months.

> Hundreds have done this safely. The same antibiotics given orally take

> about 8 months. (2) With the finding of the most common parasite

> species, the use of one of two anti-helmenthic antibiotics will

> resolve many symptoms, especially the skin manifestation in days...but

> only in about half. Knowing the species in each individual may resolve

> this.

>

> All that said, treatment has to be guided carefully with regular

> testing of liver, kidney and marrow effects. A clinician must have

> extensive experience to avoid the errors we made. As we are licensed

> physicians, it is not permissible for us to write treatment protocols

> on line. This isn't done for control, but for patient safety and

> steering to a good outcome.

>

> FYI, this phenomenon in NOT chronic Lyme disease, it's not Chronic

> Fatigue Syndrome, and we are now certain it is NOT Delusions of

> Parasitosis. The latter in fact, will be the thrust of the paper: the

> DOP label has resulted in inappropriate and incomplete treatment of

> countless people who never recovered. Once the final DNA sequencing is

> done and the paper completed, it will be published with treatment

> protocol(s) for all clinicians world wide to use. Meanwhile, as both

> primary organisms create brain limbic system abnormalities, we now

> understand that the delusional component of the illness is real in

> many affected (but far from all), so correct psychotropic medication

> can help that component even if treated purely independently. Nearly

> half the Morgellons are bipolar, but became so AFTER the parasite

> infection began. Others have formal diagnoses of extreme OCD or

> ADD/ADHD. The prevalence in children is no different from adults, and

> there appear to be no

> gender or race differences.

>

> We know that effective treatment can be obtained in Colorado from

> physicians who worked with us in Colorado Springs. Otherwise the globe

> is literally full of practitioners offering cures without factual

> basis. Our task is now focused: to complete and write the defining

> paper and provide the answer to everybody.

>

> Our best to all of you. Thanks.

>

> William Harvey, MD, MS, MPH

> Board Chairman, MRF

>

> Best, Sarah

>

> Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Al Stone " <al@> wrote:

> >

> > This is at least something we can confirm. Do you have any specific

> > references to share? In other words, where did you get this

information?

> >

> > On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 11:58 AM, baidanwu34 <baidanwu34@> wrote:

> >

> > > Interestingly though, some doctors who are treating morgellons

> > > patients now appear to be saying that Western medicine's antifungals

> > > such as diflucan do not work in these patients and that they are

> > > having more results by using selected antibiotic and antiparasitic

> > > medications.

> > >

> >

> > --

> > , DAOM

> > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

> >

June 21, 2008

Now tell me how many Morgallan's friendly sites list these differential

diagnosis?

I don't have a problem with your negative assessment of the conventional

medical community's lack (though I'm less sensitive to gender being the

cause, but we all have our reasons for our perspectives). But I return to my

issue over and over, where is the differential diagnosis on the part of

people who say they have these parasites?

I think that I should write up an example of how differential diagnosis

works. My headache example wasn't very clear, I think...

-al.

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 6:45 PM, baidanwu34 <baidanwu34 wrote:

> <http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/idepc/dtopics/pests/dp.html> " Delusional

> Parasitosis

>

> Diagnosis

>

> The diagnosis of DP is a lengthy process involving the following steps:

>

> 1. Take a careful case history.

> 2. Perform a complete physical examination and laboratory

> evaluation, including skin scrapings and/or biopsies, blood counts,

> chemistry profile, thyroid function tests, and vitamin B12 levels.

> 3. Rule out other medical conditions (eg, diabetes, atopic

> dermatitis, and lymphoblastomas) with skin manifestations that can

> appear to be caused by arthropods.

> 4. Work with entomologists or parasitologists to rule out true

> infestations (eg, scabies mites, animal mites, lice, fleas, and bed bugs).

> 5. Rule out other organic causes (eg, allergies and contact

> dermatitis).

> 6. Rule out history of drug abuse (especially in younger or male

> patients). "

>

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

June 21, 2008

Al, are you expecting morgellons patients (clients) to describe their

symptoms in a differential diagnosis TCM style? How can they as most

of them are unfamiliar with TCM much less TCM terminology. Your

headache example is terrific, but probably meaningless to anyone

unfamiliar with TCM. It would be helpful if morgellons patients could

be seen by good TCM practitioners, but even those who have been seen

(I have found some examples of them on different sites) by such

practitioners seem to have lingering symptoms. Whatever morgellons is

it does not seem to be easy to cure by either Western medicine or TCM,

but this does not mean it is all in the patients' heads either.

If you are talking about the Western list of how doctors SHOULD

conduct an examination to rule out any possible disease before

diagnosing DP I actually found this information posted on one of the

morgellons friendly sites. I think every morgellons patient should be

aware of this list, hold their doctors to it, and not accept the

shoddy diagnosis with which they are currently being labeled by

Western doctors. I guess you could say this is a sort of Western

medicine list for differential DP diagnoses and it looks as if it is

not being followed in any credible way by most doctors when " treating "

morgellons patients. One only has to read about these patients'

experiences with various doctors to reach this sort of conclusion.

best, Sarah

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Al Stone " <al wrote:

>

> Now tell me how many Morgallan's friendly sites list these differential

> diagnosis?

>

> I don't have a problem with your negative assessment of the conventional

> medical community's lack (though I'm less sensitive to gender being the

> cause, but we all have our reasons for our perspectives). But I

return to my

> issue over and over, where is the differential diagnosis on the part of

> people who say they have these parasites?

>

> I think that I should write up an example of how differential diagnosis

> works. My headache example wasn't very clear, I think...

>

> -al.

>

> On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 6:45 PM, baidanwu34 <baidanwu34 wrote:

>

> >

<http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/idepc/dtopics/pests/dp.html> " Delusional

> > Parasitosis

> >

> > Diagnosis

> >

> > The diagnosis of DP is a lengthy process involving the following

steps:

> >

> > 1. Take a careful case history.

> > 2. Perform a complete physical examination and laboratory

> > evaluation, including skin scrapings and/or biopsies, blood counts,

> > chemistry profile, thyroid function tests, and vitamin B12 levels.

> > 3. Rule out other medical conditions (eg, diabetes, atopic

> > dermatitis, and lymphoblastomas) with skin manifestations that can

> > appear to be caused by arthropods.

> > 4. Work with entomologists or parasitologists to rule out true

> > infestations (eg, scabies mites, animal mites, lice, fleas, and

bed bugs).

> > 5. Rule out other organic causes (eg, allergies and contact

> > dermatitis).

> > 6. Rule out history of drug abuse (especially in younger or male

> > patients). "

> >

>

> --

> , DAOM

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>

June 21, 2008

On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 9:38 AM, baidanwu34 <baidanwu34 wrote:

> Al, are you expecting morgellons patients (clients) to describe their

> symptoms in a differential diagnosis TCM style?

>

No, not at all. What I'm expressing is my frustration with people who are

quite insistent that they have parasites or toxicity without any sense of

the other things that can cause the observed signs and symptoms (if any!),

including skin lesions.

Differential diagnosis is an important part of both western and chinese

medicine and while I don't expect any website touting the fear and loathing

of parasites to conform to this step, I have yet to see any site talk about

the other things, many of which easy to treat, that can also cause the

observed signs and symptoms of morgellons.

How can they as most

> of them are unfamiliar with TCM much less TCM terminology. Your

> headache example is terrific, but probably meaningless to anyone

> unfamiliar with TCM.

>

I agree, what I need to do is demonstrate how a TCM person would

differential diagnose lesions such as appear in the images of those with

alleged morgellons. I don't expect consumers to know how to do that, but in

this forum, I simply want to present the need for this step in any medical

assessment.

> It would be helpful if morgellons patients could

> be seen by good TCM practitioners, but even those who have been seen

> (I have found some examples of them on different sites) by such

> practitioners seem to have lingering symptoms. Whatever morgellons is

> it does not seem to be easy to cure by either Western medicine or TCM,

> but this does not mean it is all in the patients' heads either.

>

Well, things in people's heads are difficult to treat. But I do agree that

there is a percentage of the patient population for any pathology who don't

respond to any therapy. That is a neutral argument that I don't believe says

anything. We all die eventually. Nature 1, man 0.

>

> If you are talking about the Western list of how doctors SHOULD

> conduct an examination to rule out any possible disease before

> diagnosing DP I actually found this information posted on one of the

> morgellons friendly sites.

>

GOOD! I stand corrected. Let's see more of that!

I think every morgellons patient should be

> aware of this list, hold their doctors to it, and not accept the

> shoddy diagnosis with which they are currently being labeled by

> Western doctors.

>

I support this comment, but keep in mind that shoddy diagnosis is not unique

or limited to western medicine. This is a human frailty, not a medical

paradigm problem.

I still hate to provide any support for this morgellons phenomena as a real

disease, but I will take another look at the lesions and at least present

some observations and thoughts that would pass through my head if I were

asked to treat the lesions with TCM. Again, my goal is to at least present

the TCM thinking on this.

You know, this whole thread began with a decidedly non-tcm question. " What

herbs are good for parasites? " It wasn't until alter that the conversation

bounced through lyme and morgellons that I had something to talk about. When

it comes to parasites, we have western research that has teamed up some

individual herbs with specific parasites, fungi, etc. However this isn't

pattern differentiation which starts out with the particular presentation of

the patient.

This is where we get in to " skin lesions due to blood stagnation " or " skin

lesions due to damp heat " , etc. We know there are skin lesions, but because

TCM evolved not by looking through a microscope, but by using the

observations available to the naked eye (and pulse, etc...) we don't have to

treat microscopic (or even really tiny) fibers. We treat what we see,

literally in this case.

So give me a day or three and I'll write up a dif.di for these lesions. This

is how morgellons would be treated *traditionally*, give or take.

-al.

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

June 21, 2008

Â Woops. That's completely incorrect.

---(Sarah)

Women have always been cavalierly dismissed by men when it comes to illness

---

Â Hugo

________

Sent from Mail.

A Smarter Email http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html

June 21, 2008

Hugo, on this one I will have to mostly agree with Al:

" though I'm less sensitive to gender being the

cause, but we all have our reasons for our perspectives "

In my case I would say " more sensitive " not less, but I agree

otherwise with Al's statement. I disagree slightly, but I agree with

him on the last part which deals with perspectives. Still it is his

feeling and I cannot say it is an incorrect feeling. My feeling, after

a long time dealing with male doctors as a female, is that " women have

always been cavalierly dismissed by men " (in this case male doctors).

Feelings do not have a right or a wrong, a correct or an incorrect.

They are just that, feelings, to which everyone is entitled. You are

entitled to your feelings too, such as the one you just expressed

here. I do not agree with your statement, but it is still your feeling

and therefore cannot be incorrect, as you see it from your perspective.

best, Sarah

Chinese Traditional Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

>

> Â Woops. That's completely incorrect.

> ---(Sarah)

> Women have always been cavalierly dismissed by men when it comes to

illness

> ---

> Â Hugo

>

> ________

> Sent from Mail.

> A Smarter Email http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html

>

June 22, 2008

Â Sarah, you ahve always dismissed me in a cavalier fashion because I am male.

Â Hugo

baidanwu34 <baidanwu34

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Saturday, 21 June, 2008 5:13:30 PM

[Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: Morgellons