Guest guest Posted February 17, 2001 Report Share Posted February 17, 2001 Matthew, Thanks for your answer. Studying the Classics in our Acupuncture training is such an amazing insight into how the Ancient Chinese viewed the Body, Mind, Spirit as interconnected and functioning as one unit. Yes the luo points are powerful and should be used in treatment often. In 5 Element Acupuncture they are the junction points connecting the paired meridians of the 5 Elements. Lu/LI, ST/Sp and so forth. Each Official or Zang/Fu has it's own luo point and learning how to use them as command points for treatment is powerful. Also, someone asked about Akabane. This is a simple test to measure the right/left flow of energy on the meridian level. When an imbalance is found, the luo point of the deficient side is tonified to open the gate to balance the meridians bi-laterally. Aloha, Janine acupuncture [acupuncture ] Thursday, February 15, 2001 11:36 PM acupuncture acupuncture Digest Number 260 There are 6 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. Re: luo points... C K <parlanchina 2. Re: luo points... " Ivan " <inandor 3. Re: luo points... Matthew Miller <bupleurum 4. Re: luo points... dautobrody 5. Re: luo points... Matthew Miller <bupleurum 6. Re: Re: luo points... acudoc11 ______________________ ______________________ Message: 1 15 Feb 2001 10:36:57 -0500 C K <parlanchina Re: luo points... What is the akabani test? (I'm a first year student, apologies if this is common knowledge.) Carol On Wed, 14 February 2001, " -geo- " wrote: > > geo> Another function that the luo points may have is to > correct the " akabani unbalance " . When a meredian has > more Qi in one side of the body then the other (measured > through the akabani test), one may puncture the luo point > of the side that has less Qi in order to bring back a balanced > distribuition. > > geo - Florianópolis, Brasil > > ******************************** www.chickclick.com Sign up for free email. http://chickmail.chickclick.com Win free stuff! http://contests.chickclick.com ******************************** ______________________ ______________________ Message: 2 Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:03:37 -0300 " Ivan " <inandor Re: luo points... +AD4- geo+AD4- Another function that the luo points may have is to +AD4- correct the +ACI-akabani unbalance+ACI-. When a meredian has +AD4- more Qi in one side of the body then the other (measured +AD4- through the akabani test), one may puncture the luo point +AD4- of the side that has less Qi in order to bring back a balanced +AD4- distribuition. Carol+AD4- What is the akabani test? (I'm a first year student, apologies if this is common knowledge.) Ivan (-geo-)+AD4- No problem. Maybe it is not common knowledge for all pt, but it is well known for the 5E pt. The test consists in heating the nail points of the meredians (ting) through a rapid motion of a Japanese incense stick a couple of milimeters above the actual points. You count the number of movements and compare these countings for both sides. The highest conting is the side whre Qi is deficient. Ivan - Florianopolis, Brasil. ______________________ ______________________ Message: 3 Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:26:11 -0800 (PST) Matthew Miller <bupleurum Re: luo points... Lauren wrote: > Here's a question for you all.. > when and why do you use the luo connecting points for treatment, as opposed > to just using points on that meridian? (ie- using the luo connecting point on > the lung meridian to affect large intestine?). Hi Lauren! The earliest record we have of the luo points is in the <Huangdi Neijing>. The style of acupuncture presented in that volume has several unique traits. The most noteworthy of these is its emphasis on channels (jing) rather than individual points. For most illnesses, the <Neijing> simply prescribes a particular channel rather than individual points. This has led many to speculate that the roots of acupuncture therapy were more oriented towards channels (jing), networks (luo), sinews (jin) and other large tracts along which qi and blood flowed through the body, and less toward isolated points. So before you use a luo point, it would probably be a good idea to look at the structure of the thing that originates from it and see where it leads... so to speak :-) According to the <Neijing>, the network vessels (luo mai) have several characteristics. Firstly, they are said to " govern the exterior " (zhu wai), which suggests that their location and sphere of influence is more superficial than the deeper channels. They are also said to supplement and " fill out " the circulation of the channels, presumably bringing blood and qi into the superficial layers of the body (the smallest branches of the luo, the sun luo and fu luo, roughly parallel modern capillaries, at least conceptually). Each of the luo mai also has a corresponding " luo point. " There are 15 luo mai altogether, corresponding to the the 12 regular channels, along with the Ren and Du vessels and an " odd man out " called the " Great Luo of the Spleen " which in distributed throughout the thoracic area. The luo mai of the twelve regular channels are all located on the four limbs and serve as conduits (connecting vessels) between the corresponding interior/exterior channels (i.e. lung and large intestine, spleen and stomach, etc). They are said to strengthen the physiological connection between these organs. Each of the luo mai has its own set of illnesses listed in the <Lingshu> part of the <Neijing>. Every luo mai has a specific path, all of which are described rather explicitly in the <Jing Mai> chapter of the <Ling Shu>. For example, here's a rough translation of the section on the Hand Taiyin Lung luo mai: " the divergence [luo] of the Hand Taiyin is called Lieque [the name of LU07, an ancient term which referred to lightning and the rift in the sky it came out of -- hence the luo point at which the " bolt " of lung channel qi diverges]. It originates above the wrist between the muscles [that is, the abductor pollicis longus and brachioradialis]. It travels parallel to the [shaoyin] channel, directly enters into the palm and disperses throughout the yuji [thenar eminence]. " Hence (and to finally start to answer your question :-) the lung luo mai is an actual anatomical tract, the parts of which can be treated according to the fundamental TCM dictum " wheresoever the channel travels, there it can effect a cure " ( " jing mai suo guo, zhu zhi suo ji " ). Stimulating Lieque LU07 (with a needle, heat, friction, focused intention, what have you) could therefore treat stagnation and pain anywhere along the length of its luo mai, for example, in the thenar eminence. The <Ling Shu> goes on to list some specific illnesses associated with each luo mai. Once again, for the Hand Taiyin Lung luo mai, it writes (forgive my clunky translation): " Its illnesses: Excess, thus the shou jian [ " acute angle of the hand " , back of the thenar eminence] has heat. Deficiency, thus the mouth is open [that is, one is gasping for breath from deficiency of lung qi]. " So, for example, a patient with hand or wrist pain manifesting as heat localized around the thenar eminence (i.e. De Quervain's tenosynovitis) would be a candidate for treatment of the lung luo mai. Finally the <Ling Shu> notes that the lung luo mai " diverges and travels to the Yang Ming [large intestine channel]. " Here it would be appropriate to use zang fu diagnosis in deciding when and how to use luo points. In the case of the lung and large intestine, the " purging downward movement " of lung qi has a beneficial effect on the downward transporation of waste by the large intestine. By the same token, the unobstructed movement of the bowels assists the lung qi's downward movement. If there is excess heat in the large intestine so that the bowel qi is obstructed, this can affect the lung qi and produce stuffiness in the chest, cough and breathing difficulty. Conversely, if the lung qi fails to descend, the fluids will not be sufficiently distributed (remember that the lung " regulates the waterways " ) and the stool will become hard -- a form of " qi deficiency constipation. " Furthermore, since the lungs " govern the qi, " lung deficiency could cause the qi to fail to perform its securing function, thus giving rise to loose stools. In a nutshell, if a patient shows signs that a lung disorder is disrupting the function of the large intestine or vice-versa (i.e. someone with a persistent upper respiratory tract infection develops constipation or diarrhea), then treating the lung luo point (Lieque LU07) would be appropriate. In summary, the luo point can be used in the context of the older channel-based diagnostics (viz. anatomical distibution of signs, symptoms, hypersensitivies, etc along the path of the affected luo mai) or according to the zang fu diagnosis which locates illness at the intersection of interior/exterior organs systems. I'm sure students of Five Elements and other acupuncture schools could offer additional comments. Hope that's helpful. Cheers! Matthew -- " There is no need to struggle to be free; the absence of struggle is in itself freedom. " --Chogyam Trungpa Get personalized email addresses from Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail./ ______________________ ______________________ Message: 4 Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:34:34 EST dautobrody Re: luo points... Matthew~ Thanks for that in depth answer! I'm a first year student, and haven't gotten to study the Classics (nei, nan jing) yet...But I see you've retained the information well:) Thanks again for shedding some light on the subject. Eventually I'll know these things, but right now we're studying point location, and some basic functions of the points (as well as organ/meridian pathologies). But in time, I'll learn more. Take Care Lauren And thank you Ivan, for your information as well!! Hope to hear more from you soon. ______________________ ______________________ Message: 5 Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:01:47 -0800 (PST) Matthew Miller <bupleurum Re: luo points... Lauren wrote: > Here's a question for you all.. > when and why do you use the luo connecting points for treatment, as opposed > to just using points on that meridian? (ie- using the luo connecting point on > the lung meridian to affect large intestine?). Hi Lauren! The earliest record we have of the luo points is in the <Huangdi Neijing>. The style of acupuncture presented in that volume has several unique traits. The most noteworthy of these is its emphasis on channels (jing) rather than individual points. For most illnesses, the <Neijing> simply prescribes a particular channel rather than individual points. This has led many to speculate that the roots of acupuncture therapy were more oriented towards channels (jing), networks (luo), sinews (jin) and other large tracts along which qi and blood flow through the body, and less toward isolated points. So before you use a luo point, it would probably be a good idea to look at the structure of the thing that originates from it and see where it leads... so to speak :-) According to the <Neijing>, the network vessels (luo mai) have several characteristics. Firstly, they are said to " govern the exterior " (zhu wai), which suggests that their location and sphere of influence is more superficial than the deeper channels. They are also said to supplement and " fill out " the circulation of the channels, presumably bringing blood and qi into the superficial layers of the body (the smallest branches of the luo, the sun luo and fu luo, roughly parallel modern capillaries, at least conceptually). Each of the luo mai also has a corresponding " luo point. " There are 15 luo mai altogether, corresponding to the 12 regular channels, along with the Ren and Du vessels and an " odd man out " called the " Great Luo of the Spleen " which in distributed throughout the thoracic area. The luo mai of the twelve regular channels are all located on the four limbs and serve as conduits (connecting vessels) between the corresponding interior/exterior channels (i.e. lung and large intestine, spleen and stomach, etc). They are said to strengthen the physiological connection between these organs. Each of the luo mai has its own set of illnesses listed in the <Lingshu> part of the <Neijing>. Every luo mai has a specific path, each of which is described rather explicitly in the <Jing Mai> chapter of the <Ling Shu>. For example, here's a rough translation of the section on the Hand Taiyin Lung luo mai: " the divergence [luo] of the Hand Taiyin is called Lieque [the name of LU07, an ancient term which referred to lightning and the rift in the sky it came out of -- hence the luo point at which the " bolt " of lung channel qi diverges]. It originates above the wrist between the muscles [that is, the abductor pollicis longus and brachioradialis]. It travels parallel to the [shaoyin] channel, directly enters into the palm and disperses throughout the yuji [thenar eminence]. " Hence (and to finally start to answer your question :-) the lung luo mai is an actual anatomical tract, which can be treated according to the fundamental TCM dictum " wheresoever the channel travels, there it can effect a cure " ( " jing mai suo guo, zhu zhi suo ji " ). Stimulating Lieque LU07 (with a needle, heat, friction, focused intention, what have you) could therefore treat stagnation and pain anywhere along the length of its luo mai, for example, in the thenar eminence. The <Ling Shu> goes on to list some specific illnesses associated with each luo mai. Each group of luo illnesses is divided into two classes, " excess " and " deficiency. " Again, for the Hand Taiyin Lung luo mai, it writes (forgive my clunky translation): " Its illnesses: Excess, thus the shou jian [ " acute angle of the hand " , back of the thenar eminence] and palm has heat. Deficiency, thus the mouth is open [that is, one is gasping for breath from deficiency of lung qi], the emission of urine is conspicuous [i.e. frequent micturition or enuresis] " So, for example, a patient with hand or wrist pain manifesting as heat localized around the thenar eminence (i.e. De Quervain's tenosynovitis) would be a candidate for treatment of the lung luo mai. The lung luo mai has also classically been used to treat bedwetting in children and incontinence in the eldery, women following childbirth, etc. To understand the connection here, one must know that, according to the physiological theories of TCM, lungs are the " upper source of water " and the lung qi " regulates the waterways, " which means that the diffusing and descending activitu of lung qi helps distribute fluid throughout the body, as well as assists in the elimination of urine. Finally the <Ling Shu> notes that the lung luo mai " diverges and travels to the Yang Ming [large intestine channel]. " Here it would be appropriate to use zang fu diagnosis in deciding when and how to use luo points. In the case of the lung and large intestine, the " purging downward movement " of lung qi has a beneficial effect on the downward transporation of waste by the large intestine. By the same token, the unobstructed movement of the bowels assists the lung qi's downward movement. If there is excess heat in the large intestine so that the bowel qi is obstructed, this can affect the lung qi and produce stuffiness in the chest, cough and breathing difficulty. Conversely, if the lung qi fails to descend, the fluids will not be sufficiently distributed (remember that the lung " regulates the waterways " ) and the stool will become hard -- a form of " qi deficiency constipation. " Furthermore, since the lungs " govern the qi, " lung deficiency could cause the qi to fail to perform its securing function, thus giving rise to loose stools. In a nutshell, if a patient shows signs that a lung disorder is disrupting the function of the large intestine or vice-versa (i.e. someone with a persistent upper respiratory tract infection develops constipation or diarrhea), then treating the lung luo point (Lieque LU07) would be appropriate. In cases such as these, it is traditional to combine the luo point with the corresponding source (yuan) point (in this case Taiyuan LU09). In summary, the luo point can be used in the context of the older channel-based diagnostics (viz. anatomical distribution of signs, symptoms, hypersensitivies, etc along the path of the affected luo mai) or according to a zang fu diagnosis which locates illness at the intersection of interior/exterior organs systems. I'm sure students of Five Elements and other acupuncture schools could offer additional comments. Hope that's helpful. Cheers! Matthew -- " There is no need to struggle to be free; the absence of struggle is in itself freedom. " --Chogyam Trungpa Get personalized email addresses from Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail./ ______________________ ______________________ Message: 6 Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:37:40 EST acudoc11 Re: Re: luo points... The lungs are an air vent allowing the qi AND fluids to descend...therefore in certain cases of constipation....it is because BOTH qi AND fluids do not reach the large intestines properly to make formed feces. Body fluids and qi move together. Anecdotal comment. Western medicine knows (but not why) and often forgets that some unexplained coughing/lung problems are caused by diverticulitis. Richard ______________________ ______________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2003 Report Share Posted August 11, 2003 Dear Roger, I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter. I can't imagine how heart breaking that must be. I'm a mother (even new grandmother) myself, and know that nothing kills you more than misfortune to yourself apart from mistfortune to your children. My eldest daughter is also 27, and had both her babies at Wake medical center. You must be in N.C. I'm aware of the meds problem. I've given up allopathic medication myself for two major disorders that I suffer from. Natural is best. You don't say what's the matter with your daughter, but I do urge you, whatever it is, never to give up hope. Miracles do happen. I'm not an expert, but I've been studying alt. med. on a private basis for over thirty years, and I'm now writing my third book, and studying for my degree in alt. med. (just to make it official). Feel welcome to write me off list and I'll do my humble best to make some suggestion for you. I'm sorry if I seemed a bit glib, talking about your aggression. Most of us do have aggression issues for a number of reasons; myself included. I happen to be in a calm period right now! Wishing you and your daughter miracles and light, Patricia. > > Message: 2 > Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:54:13 -0400 > " Roger Kimble " <rzk357 > Re: Digest Number 259 > > Dear Patricia, > > Thank you for the wishes of well being. I sincerely appreciate them. > > Actually I have already picked my treatment, and (surprise) it was not the treatment my ex-doctor recommended. I say ex, because he told me if I did not go with his recommended way of handling this, he would no longer see me as a patient. So you can see I am hardly pushing the mainstream way of treatment. I told adios. > > I have very little respect for most of the doctors in which I have come into contact. Not from my own illness, but from my daughter's. She is now 27, was diagnosed with a very rare disease at Duke University Medical Center when she was but 19. She is totally disabled and cannot care for herself. A shame, I know, but even more so because she was already accepted into graduate school, and she is brilliant. That is gone now. We have been to Wake Forest University Med Center several times, several trips back to Duke, and spent five weeks at Mayo last summer. Results: Zero. Nothing. Plus we have taken her to various recommended physicians in other areas. Same results. We have tried various vitamin-mineral combinations, some herb conglomerations, and nothing has helped. My point is that as far as the established medical society is concerned, I hold out very little hope or admiration for them, or their treatments. Some of the meds they prescribed actually created other monsters with which we had to deal. > > I have read Pauling, Dyer, I think all of Chopra, although I think he now has realized he has found a money tree and is vigorously shaking it for all it is worth. Read Weir, and a host of others. Some things helpful, some not, as could be expected. Been doing meditation and deep breathing for years. > > My " aggression, " as you so colorfully put it, doesn't stem from my illness. It is partly genetic disposition, but mostly a reaction I get when people read, make that scan, my posts and then reply, telling me I have said something that is 180 degrees from what I actually said. They send a " flamer, " if you will. > > I don't know why you expected me to react aggressively. Then you make the statement most seriously ill people do this. This hasn't been my experience with these people at all. In fact, just the exact opposite. I guess we haven't been around the same people. > > At any rate, take care and thanks for the good wishes. > > Roger > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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