knee injury

May 18, 2002

Hi Suzi

I gave it some thought and decided to answer from my own experience of a knee injury. When I first injured my left knee it smarted like the dickens but didn,t seem so serious, or so I thought. I wore a knee brace and used a walker for two weeks ,hoping it would help it heal, mistake! it only weakened it quickly and made even bumping it slightly radiate pain. Than I seen my familey doctor. he ran a series of tests -bending flexing it and said it might be a sprain,but to come in if it doesn,t improve in 3 more weeks. It didn,t. I was referred to a specialist who did a MRI on it and at his appointment was told it wasn,t torn enough to merit surgery. After 4 years and careful working with it, kind of helped it heal but a torn cartiledge never heals completely. You just have to learn what you can and cannot do in smaller lighter time intervals and can work around the injury which is not present unless I do alot of yard work, than I feel that old injury and take a few days or week to let it go away again- its either adapting to a different approach to your work load or opting for scope surgery. but most people I talked with still feel some discomfort for the rest of their life- short of knee replacement. I learned to tolerate and gage my pain tolarance and let up when it is to much for my knees.

Hope this helps

Rita

-

Suzanne Nottmeier

herbal remedies

Thursday, May 16, 2002 10:31 PM

[herbal remedies] knee injury

Ok, without going into a long story....I injured my knee... after a week and a half decided I better have the doc look at it.... been using deep tissue repair oil on it (but it doesn't seem to be helping - it usually helps with everything.) Anyway the pain got too much so I went... Doc says the ligaments are fine - that I either have twisted it or possibly have a torn miniscis (sp) He gave me celebrex ( a strong anti inflamatory, also for used for osteoarthritis) and a support. In 3 weeks I go back either it will be better or if torn miniscis, not. Which if the latter, outpatient surgery. So, does anyone know of anything I can try to help this heal. Oh yes, been taking MSM too. It's the pain that bugs me. They say the celebrex should help that.... it does, for a while.

Oh yes, I was rounding up goats that got out due to a tree taking out the fence and the fence was down in the ravene... and it was wet (due to all the rain) and I messed up my knee.

Suzi

LAUNCH - Your Music Experience Federal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and toprescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian ShillingtonDoctor of NaturopathyDr.IanShillington

May 18, 2002

Rita,

yeah, this is I believe from an old injury years ago... a few people who had orthscopic said its better but takes months to really get back to "normal".... guess we'll see what 3 weeks brings...'

Suzi

"Curly.Cue" <curly.cue wrote:

Hi Suzi

I gave it some thought and decided to answer from my own experience of a knee injury. When I first injured my left knee it smarted like the dickens but didn,t seem so serious, or so I thought. I wore a knee brace and used a walker for two weeks ,hoping it would help it heal, mistake! it only weakened it quickly and made even bumping it slightly radiate pain. Than I seen my familey doctor. he ran a series of tests -bending flexing it and said it might be a sprain,but to come in if it doesn,t improve in 3 more weeks. It didn,t. I was referred to a specialist who did a MRI on it and at his appointment was told it wasn,t torn enough to merit surgery. After 4 years and careful working with it, kind of helped it heal but a torn cartiledge never heals completely. You just have to learn what you can and cannot do in smaller lighter time intervals and can work around the injury which is not present unless I do alot of yard work, than I feel that old injury and take a few days or week to let it go away again- its either adapting to a different approach to your work load or opting for scope surgery. but most people I talked with still feel some discomfort for the rest of their life- short of knee replacement. I learned to tolerate and gage my pain tolarance and let up when it is to much for my knees.

Hope this helps

Rita

-

Suzanne Nottmeier

herbal remedies

Thursday, May 16, 2002 10:31 PM

[herbal remedies] knee injury

Ok, without going into a long story....I injured my knee... after a week and a half decided I better have the doc look at it.... been using deep tissue repair oil on it (but it doesn't seem to be helping - it usually helps with everything.) Anyway the pain got too much so I went... Doc says the ligaments are fine - that I either have twisted it or possibly have a torn miniscis (sp) He gave me celebrex ( a strong anti inflamatory, also for used for osteoarthritis) and a support. In 3 weeks I go back either it will be better or if torn miniscis, not. Which if the latter, outpatient surgery. So, does anyone know of anything I can try to help this heal. Oh yes, been taking MSM too. It's the pain that bugs me. They say the celebrex should help that.... it does, for a while.

Oh yes, I was rounding up goats that got out due to a tree taking out the fence and the fence was down in the ravene... and it was wet (due to all the rain) and I messed up my knee.

Suzi

LAUNCH - Your Music Experience Federal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and toprescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian ShillingtonDoctor of NaturopathyDr.IanShillington

June 16, 2003

Help,

My 17 year old daughter sustained a knee injury when she was kicked in the knee

during a soccer game. She was seen by a medical doctor as it was extremely

swollen. He took an xray and wanted to drain it by my medically oriented

husband supprising said no. After a week the MD saw her again. The swelling is

down but the knee is still stiff and won't straighten completely. The MD wants

to do an MRI and then possibly do surgery (which I already told my daughter I

would not consent to). Its amazing how these MD's use fear to proceed with

treatment - he stated that if there is a problem with the cartalige it will not

heal on its own and it would require surgery - funny how cartiledge that can't

heal will heal after surgery although it will require 4-6 months. My personnal

feeling is it would heal on its own given 4-6 months. I curently have my

daughter on an MSM, glucosamine and condroiten supplement. I am also

considering NSF thearapy but the only therapist in our area is 2 hours away and

not fully certified. Any suggestions and/or supporting documentation (for my

doctor is god husband) would be appreciated

Thank you,

Cheryl Rounds

June 16, 2003

I have no documentation but I had an MRI because of severe pain in 2000

after a trip to Israel and knees and feet swelling. MRI verified torn

cartilage and it was assumed I would have surgery. I delayed and got on the

MSM, glucosamine, chondroitan plus other things and I have not had surgery

and am mostly pain free. I have not had other tests to verify the situation

but beings as how I am 68 yrs young and that was the reason I was given for

the cartilage tearing because of the excess swelling, I just feel I'm better

off out of the hospital than I would be going into the surgery. I went the

doctors way for 1 1/2 yrs with the two main drugs they prescribe and decided

the risks were not worth it. I cannot tell you that the same would work for

your daughter but I would surely give it a try before diving into knee

surgery.

Best of luck.....Eloise

Eloise Bailey

Raiza Creme now Available--Try it and

Watch the Wrinkles Fade Away

www.raziacreme.com/wrinklesaway

-

<metamorphosis4

Sunday, June 15, 2003 8:44 PM

[s-A] knee injury

> Help,

> My 17 year old daughter sustained a knee injury when she was kicked in the

knee during a soccer game. She was seen by a medical doctor as it was

extremely swollen. He took an xray and wanted to drain it by my medically

oriented husband supprising said no. After a week the MD saw her again.

The swelling is down but the knee is still stiff and won't straighten

completely. The MD wants to do an MRI and then possibly do surgery (which I

already told my daughter I would not consent to). Its amazing how these

MD's use fear to proceed with treatment - he stated that if there is a

problem with the cartalige it will not heal on its own and it would require

surgery - funny how cartiledge that can't heal will heal after surgery

although it will require 4-6 months. My personnal feeling is it would heal

on its own given 4-6 months. I curently have my daughter on an MSM,

glucosamine and condroiten supplement. I am also considering NSF thearapy

but the only therapist in our area is 2 hours away and not fully certified.

Any suggestions and/or supporting documentation (for my doctor is god

husband) would be appreciated

> Thank you,

> Cheryl Rounds

>

June 16, 2003

Cheryl,

If your only tool is a hammer, then all of your problems look like

nails. The only tools your doctor has is medications & surgery. You

might also want to see if a chiropractor, physical therapist and massage

therapist can help.

--

Donald E. Jacobs

Registered Massage Therapist

Macrobiotic Counselor

Reiki Practitioner

Professional Speaker

> Help,

> My 17 year old daughter sustained a knee injury when she was kicked in

> the knee during a soccer game. She was seen by a medical doctor as it

> was extremely swollen. He took an xray and wanted to drain it by my

> medically oriented husband supprising said no. After a week the MD

> saw her again. The swelling is down but the knee is still stiff and

> won't straighten completely. The MD wants to do an MRI and then

> possibly do surgery (which I already told my daughter I would not

> consent to). Its amazing how these MD's use fear to proceed with

> treatment - he stated that if there is a problem with the cartalige it

> will not heal on its own and it would require surgery - funny how

> cartiledge that can't heal will heal after surgery although it will

> require 4-6 months. My personnal feeling is it would heal on its own

> given 4-6 months. I curently have my daughter on an MSM, glucosamine

> and condroiten supplement. I am also considering NSF thearapy but the

> only therapist in our area is 2 hours away and not fully certified.

> Any suggestions and/or supporting documentation (for my doctor is god

> husband) would be appreciated

> Thank you,

> Cheryl Rounds

June 16, 2003

Dear Cheryl,

Homeopathic Ruta grava 30c, Rhus Tox 30c, and Silicea 30c have

worked wonders with clients I have had in the past with knee

injuries/ailments... Considering the symptom picture, arnica 30c

and/or hypericum 30c might also be investigated...

While each remedy covers a huge range of territory, Ruta & Rhus

specifically help joints, and even more specifically joints that are

stiff, they also address tendons and ligaments. Silicea will help

strengthen the joint. Arnica is for injuries to soft tissue, such

as muscles and hypericum is for injuries to nerves.

If you get these at a health food store the bottle will most likely

say take anywhere from 3-8 pills all at the same time. They just

want you to use the pills faster. Whether you give one pellet or

the whole bottle at the same time does equal amount of good.

Instead, how often you take the remedy is what makes the

difference. I would take the remedies often, something like every

1/2hr. for 2 hours, every 1 hour for 4 and then every two hours

afterwards, until sleep. I would start the next day off at 1/2 hr

for 2 hrs again. Once there is improvement you slowly want to ween

off. And remember if the symptom picture changes, so too will the

remedies need to be changed... So if you have questions as you go,

please feel free to ask...

Be Well,

Misty

http://www..com

, metamorphosis4@a...

wrote:

> Help,

> My 17 year old daughter sustained a knee injury when she was

kicked in the knee during a soccer game. She was seen by a medical

doctor as it was extremely swollen. He took an xray and wanted to

drain it by my medically oriented husband supprising said no. After

a week the MD saw her again. The swelling is down but the knee is

still stiff and won't straighten completely. The MD wants to do an

MRI and then possibly do surgery (which I already told my daughter I

would not consent to). Its amazing how these MD's use fear to

proceed with treatment - he stated that if there is a problem with

the cartalige it will not heal on its own and it would require

surgery - funny how cartiledge that can't heal will heal after

surgery although it will require 4-6 months. My personnal feeling

is it would heal on its own given 4-6 months. I curently have my

daughter on an MSM, glucosamine and condroiten supplement. I am

also considering NSF thearapy but the only therapist in our area is

2 hours away and not fully certified. Any suggestions and/or

supporting documentation (for my doctor is god husband) would be

appreciated

> Thank you,

> Cheryl Rounds

June 16, 2003

Cheryl,

Here's an article that was written by a nutritionist friend of mine

about soft tissue repair - it may be of help with your daughter's knee.

Good luck!

Carol M

ASSISTING THE REPAIR OF SOFT TISSUE INJURY

by Nutrition/Health

Teacher, Donia Alawi (5/26/01)

Here's an article I wrote on nutrition's role in helping with back

injuries. Algae is very helpful, but turmuric is the most important food

to take for injuries.

Many of you already know that I've recommended the use of " systemic

enzyme therapy " in many inflammatory, degenerative conditions. I

personally have not used enzymes in that capacity, only as a digestive

aid with cooked or processed meals. However, 10 days ago, I experienced

a serious injury to my back and have used a " systemic enzyme therapy "

approach with great success. In that time I've gone from an invalid to

95% normal again. I'll share what I did to speed the healing process of

a serious soft tissue injury.

Friday is 'garbage day' in our neighborhood, so I got up real early and

went to the office to take out the trash. It was rainy and windy with

leaves flying everywhere. Some of those leaves landed on the lower

steps of our

back porch at the office, so now we had wet steps with slippery leaves

on them. I had both hands occupied, carrying two trash baskets, so I

was unable to hold on to the stair railing. I stepped on the last stair

and my foot

landed in the middle of a number of wet leaves and suddenly my feet and

legs went forward, up in the air and I landed on my back, at the waist,

on the edge of one of the stairs. My back was 'wacked' so severely that

I almost passed out from the searing pain. I got up slowly, took a

breath and almost screamed in response to the pain of simply breathing.

I knew something was seriously wrong, I slowly got myself back into the

office and the phone rang. It was Rich, my husband, calling. I told him

I fell and to please come assist me back home.

My face was pale and sweaty and the pain was severe. Breathing was

burning and I was fearful since I had to walk back to the house and

experience excruciating pain with every step. With Rich's help, I got

back to the house and was gently guided on to a comfortable chair.

Rich wanted to take me to the emergency ward at a near by hospital to

see what kind of damage occurred to my back. The thought of having to

lie down on a cold surface to get an X-ray taken was so unappealing to

think of, that I decided not to go. At that point, I wasn't sure if I'd

injured my spine, broke a rib, or had a soft tissue injury (torn or

bruised muscle or tendon). I just sat quietly on soft pillows and

decided I'd wait until later to see if the pain would subside so I could

sleep without going out of my mind from pain. I was able to sleep OK

that night and decided not to go to the hospital, and I was very

thankful that we had a recliner to sleep on.

Here's what I did as an immediate therapeutic approach to reduce the

inflammation and pain:

Systemic Enzyme Therapy - I referred to Dr. Anthony Cichoke's writings,

as he is a well known expert in " systemic enzyme therapies " . I've read

many of his enzyme books and here's what he writes about enzyme

treatment for soft tissue injuries:

" Systemic enzyme therapy is used to relieve pain and reduce swelling and

inflammation. Enzyme therapy stimulates the immune system, improves

circulation, and helps speed tissue repair by bringing nutrients to the

damaged area and removing waste products. Doctors prescribe ice or

heat, rest, and any number of anti-inflammatory drugs and pain relievers

to treat strains, sprains, and other injuries. But enzymes can bring

faster recovery (sometimes twice as fast) without the serious side

effects of drugs, and may actually help prevent injuries from occurring.

Here's why - Enzymes stimulate the body's own natural enzymatic

processes without causing the immune system to be suppressed. They

increase tissue permeability, as well as the rate of degradation of

inflammatory and toxic products, and increase the rate of microthrombi

breakdown, therefore reducing swelling. Consequently, they improve the

supply of nutrients and oxygen to the tissues and the removal of the end

products of normal metabolism. Therefore, the duration of the

inflammatory process is reduced, pain stops, and the healing process

progresses more quickly with reduced scar tissue formation. " (

Enzymes and Enzyme Therapy, by Dr. Anthony Cichoke.)

My injury occurred ten days ago. I immediately began taking 10 enzymes

every other hour. E-12 enzymes are an excellent product because they

provide a combination of proteolytic enzymes. In enzyme therapy, you

need several types of enzymes to be most effective. Dr. Cichoke feels

enzyme combinations are more therapeutically effective than individual

enzymes in accomplishing their designed goal. This may be because of

their synergistic

activity. E-12 has the following enzymes in large amounts: amylase,

lipase, glucoamylase, lactase, protease, invertase, pectinase,

cellulase, papain, and bromelain. In addition, this product is

micro-blended with nutrient- rich foods such as blue green algae,

fennel, ginger, and cayenne pepper. Throughout each day, I took (10)

capsules each hour. I did this for three days. After that I reduced the

amounts of enzymes to about 10 a day.

These enzymes need to be taken on an empty stomach to be most effective.

Turmeric Therapy - Since ancient times, turmeric (a spice) has been used

as an agent to strengthen the stomach, invigorate vital body organs, and

purify the blood (by stimulating the action of the liver and kidneys).

However, only recently has modern medicine recognized the incredible

healing properties of turmeric in regards to injuries. Turmeric

possesses anti-inflammatory properties (Nutritional Research, 1993, vol.

13).

I'm very familiar with what turmeric can do to heal injuries. My mother

taught me a lot about the healing properties of turmeric. I remember a

number of times as a child, I experienced some severe bruises and

sprains. My mother always knew what to do to ease my pain. She prepared

a yellow colored poultice and applied it externally to where I hurt and

within an hour or two, I would be able to function normally again.

I particularly remember one incident when I sprained my ankle real bad

playing at a park, and by the time I came back to the house, my ankle

was severely swollen. My mother took one look and started making a

poultice. Here's how she did it: In a cooking pan, she mixed two

tablespoons of powdered turmeric and one tablespoon each of sea salt and

sesame seed oil. She heated this mixture over the stove to create a

smooth paste. When it was very warm (not burning to the skin), she

applied it on my ankle. Of course, I screamed from the pain and the

initial shock of the heat applied on the injury. But she kept applying

the poultice and then she wrapped it tightly with gauze and elevated my

ankle. Within an hour all the pain was gone and I was able to sleep like

a baby that night. I was able to walk normally again the next day.

Turmeric is a very common treatment used by Ayurvedic doctors to treat

injuries with the desired outcome of reducing the swelling of inflamed

joint(s) and diminishing pain, and it works beautifully.

Because this injury was to my back I didn't think I could apply anything

externally, since the pain was too severe to lie down. Therefore, I

decided to take powdered turmeric internally every other hour. I took a

level

teaspoon of turmeric 10 times in the first day of my back injury. After

three days, I reduced the amounts to 2-3 teaspoons daily, with the last

one at bed time.

Drinking a lot of water helps in reducing any kind of inflammation.

With the systemic enzyme therapy and the intake of turmeric, drinking a

lot of water throughout the day is essential.

I didn't apply any ice externally because of the pain of the injury and

because of the inconvenience of trying to apply ice to my back. It would

help however, if ice is applied on any soft tissue injury because it

reduces

hematomas and restores local circulation.

I made sure that I ate simple meals. I wanted all my body's energy to go

towards healing the injured area. I didn't overburden my body with

fried, greasy or very much cooked food. I had fresh fruit juice in the

morning and one large raw salad for lunch and dinner with all kinds of

mixed vegetables. I had three boiled organic eggs daily to add protein

to my diet. Protein is needed for repairing torn muscles or tendons and

eggs provide great protein for such emergencies (boiled is the best way

to prepare eggs for this purpose).

Today is Sunday, so it is now exactly 10 days since my back injury. I'm

now 95% self-sufficient (I can do a lot of chores on my own). I still

am very careful about certain twisting movements because the pain is

still there with some minor inflammation. However, I feel that within a

few days, I'm going to be totally healed.

I am greatly appreciative of one of the greatest natural gifts of life,

the body's ability to heal itself. The massive amounts of enzyme

supplements that I took, with turmeric, offered support to the normal

innate ability of my

body to self heal.

To stock up on turmeric and E-12 enzymes is a good approach for

nutrition and emergency preparedness. Make sure you keep turmeric and

enzymes in your home.

June 16, 2003

I can vouch for the Arnica for the swelling and bruising. Last year I had to

have 8 jawbone surgeries. After the first one the one side of my face was

very swollen and I had a big black and blue mark on my cheek. The surgeon

recommended taking arnica orally and also to rub it on the side of my face

for all subsequent surgeries which I did. I had no bruising at all and very

little swelling. What a miracle herb !!

Chris