Please Explain. It;s in tamil.

[Guest guest]

This is from Manicka Vasagar's (10-11 th cent AD) Thiruvachagam.

 

The first line says

" Praise to the Lord who owns (or who is of) the southern Land "

may be because the Tamils believe Shiva worship originated in

Tamilnadu, though widely it is believed it originated in Kashmir.

 

The second line says " Praise to the God, who is Lord of all lands "

 

This is the standard praise in Shiva Temples across Tamilnadu, even today.

 

Venkat

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much Mr. Venkat. After you explain i understand what

exactly the words are. Thank you again so much.

 

Sarvamaatha.

[Guest guest]

Hari OM!

 

Venkatji has said that in Tamilnadu it is believed that the worship of Lord Siva

originated here, referring to the first line of Saint Manickavasagar's couplet.

There might be such a belief among the saivites of this land. But, I am afraid,

that does not seem to be the idea conveyed in 'thennaadudaiya sivanae portri'.

To my mind, it means that Lord Siva is the one who owns the southern land.

" Udaiyar' is one of the names attributed to Lord Siva.It means the owner. The

famous Tanjore temple is also known as 'Peruvudaiyar' koil. In other words, it

says Lord Siva is the one owns the southern land. The land could be an 'Aagu

peyar' -an ephemism for the people of the south. The poet, as if to correct

himself from confining the universal Lord to a small part of the land, says in

the second line, " He is the Lord of All " .

 

How can we possibly give a limit to the limitless God!

 

I am an ardent devotee of Lord Siva myself, although I do not find any

difficulty in worshipping God in any form. Now, the holy month of 'margazhi' has

begun. I am thrilled to hear the hymns of 'Thiruppavai'.

 

Hari Om Tat Sat.

 

ulaganthan p

 

 

 

 

________________________________

sarvamaatha <no_reply >

 

Sunday, 14 December, 2008 10:31:32 AM

Please Explain. It;s in tamil.

 

 

" Thennanudaiya Sivaney pottri

YenNattavarkkum Yeraiva pottri "

 

I can understand the second lines, But not the first lines. Please

explain this. Thanks.

 

Sarvamaatha.

 

 

 

 

 

Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to

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[Guest guest]

, ulaganathan p <apunathan wrote:

 

.. To my mind, it means that Lord Siva is the one who owns the southern

land. "

.. In other words, it says Lord Siva is the one owns the southern land.

The land could be an

 

 

Dear Apunathan,

 

In Hinduism, the direction south is considered as the direction of

death and destruction. This aspect is usefully utilised by Vaastu

experts.

 

Is it possible that by saying - Shiva is the owner of south " may

not mean actually south or north India, but the direction South which

means death and destruction ??

 

Aum

[Guest guest]

In such a simple words, i see so many meanings here. Everyone good

explanation. Thank you everyone. Still more? waiting...

 

 

Sarvamaatha.

[Guest guest]

Aumji,

 

Then what does East, West and North means too?

Sarvamaatha.

[Guest guest]

, sarvamaatha <no_reply wrote:

>

> Aumji,

>

> Then what does East, West and North means too?

> Sarvamaatha.

>

Dear sarvamatha

 

East is linked with creation, west with preservation and north with

spirituality.

 

so Shiva is a god of destruction but he is owner of all directions

also means he is manifesting as all Ishwar tattwa.

 

Aum

[Guest guest]

Respected all Sadhaks,

 

Jai Gurudev,

 

Sadar Pranam...

 

Thanks for all the wonderful inputs...

 

While deciding the various directions, what is the reference point, I guess

everyone is taking the reference point as the point where the individual Soul is

located. For Paramatma, there is no direction, as HE is everywhere and not at a

single point which HE can consider as reference...

 

With Regards,

 

Prabhat

 

 

> Then what does East, West and North means too?

 

> Sarvamaatha.

 

>

 

East is linked with creation, west with preservation and north with

 

spirituality.

[Guest guest]

, Prabhat Gupta <suprabhat_1999

wrote:

>> While deciding the various directions, what is the reference

point, For Paramatma, there is no direction, as HE is everywhere and

not at a single point which HE can consider as reference...

>

 

 

The directions are not for pramatma but for us, the mortal beings.

While the directions may have many spiritual reference points, but

physical directions are taken from the Sun.

 

When we say Shiva is owner of South, but owner of all directions...

its esoteric meaning may be he is omnipresent, although he manifests

as Rudra in South

 

Aum

[Guest guest]

Respected Shri Aum ji,

 

Jai Gurudev,

 

Sadar Pranaam,

 

Thanks for clarifying the doubt of (my ??) mind.

 

With Regards,

 

Prabhat

[Guest guest]

Hari Om!

 

If I am correct, in ancient Tamil, the term 'Then pulathar' meaning the

'southerners' is used to refer to the dead and departed souls. Possibly, the

dead souls sojourn at some region in the southern direction, before they are

despatched to other lives, according their karma.

 

May kindly throw more light on this.

 

Hari Om tat sat

 

ulaganthan p

 

 

 

 

________________________________

aumji <no_reply >

 

Tuesday, 16 December, 2008 1:55:56 PM

Re: Please Explain. It;s in tamil.

 

 

@ s.com, sarvamaatha <no_reply@.. .> wrote:

>

> Aumji,

>

> Then what does East, West and North means too?

> Sarvamaatha.

>

Dear sarvamatha

 

East is linked with creation, west with preservation and north with

spirituality.

 

so Shiva is a god of destruction but he is owner of all directions

also means he is manifesting as all Ishwar tattwa.

 

Aum

 

 

 

 

Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to

http://messenger./invite/

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namste Ulaganathan ji, Namaste All,

I referred to Manicka Vasagar again with the help of the commentary by

Srimad Chidbhavananda.

 

Swamy says, it is only in the South and especially Tamilnadu that

Shiva is worshipped with such love and depth. The twelve thirumurais

are proof. Plus the Sivagnana bodham in Tamil all add to this fact.

The saiva Agamas are all in grantha lipi, a special lipi used by South

Indians to write Sanskrit. That is why you cannot find such Agamas in

North India.

 

The legend of the sunken 'Kumari' in Indian ocean is another South

Land. There, Shiva is said to have presided over the Tamil Sangam.

Shiva and Tamilnadu are intricately intertwined. Even now, most of

Tamilnadu is Saivite. In rest of India, Vaishnavism is the dominant one.

 

I enjoyed the south> direction of death> shiva the God of death and

destruction angle.

 

Thanks

 

Venkat

 

 

, ulaganathan p <apunathan wrote:

>

> Hari Om!

>

> If I am correct, in ancient Tamil, the term 'Then pulathar' meaning

the 'southerners' is used to refer to the dead and departed souls.

Possibly, the dead souls sojourn at some region in the southern

direction, before they are despatched to other lives, according their

karma.

>

> May kindly throw more light on this.

>

> Hari Om tat sat

>

> ulaganthan p

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> aumji <no_reply >

>

> Tuesday, 16 December, 2008 1:55:56 PM

> Re: Please Explain. It;s in tamil.

>

>

> @ s.com, sarvamaatha <no_reply@ .> wrote:

> >

> > Aumji,

> >

> > Then what does East, West and North means too?

> > Sarvamaatha.

> >

> Dear sarvamatha

>

> East is linked with creation, west with preservation and north with

> spirituality.

>

> so Shiva is a god of destruction but he is owner of all directions

> also means he is manifesting as all Ishwar tattwa.

>

> Aum

>

>

>

>

> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to

http://messenger./invite/

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Venkatji,

 

I am fully in agreement with you. I do not refute the fact that in Tamilnadu,

Siva worship dominates. However, I had my doubts about the statement that

Saivism originated in the south and according to you it could have taken root in

Kashmir. In support of that I said that the part of the poem- 'thennadudaiya

sivanae portri' also does not convey the sense that saivism originated in the

south. According to me, this line only indicates that the Lord Siva possesses

the land and the mind of the people of the south.

 

I would like to further add that it is not only in Tamilnadu, but in the best

part of the southern India, saivism has taken a deep root. They say the word

'telugu' has come from the word 'trilinga'. The Veera Saiva movement in

Karnataka has brought about a casteless revolution. Some time ago, I read an

article by Sujatha, the late Tamil writer with his experience with rural folks

near Mysore. He expressed his surprise at seeing a number of villages

comprising the ingayats who never eat meat. It is indeed a big social revolution

to bring under one fold people from different social background and bind them

together in the name of Lord Siva. Even in TN, there are Saiva Vellalas who

are staunh vegetarians and worship none but Lord Siva. In Tamil, vegetarian food

is referred as 'saiva sappadu' or saivite meal.

 

It is true that Lord Siva is said to have participated in the proceedings of the

Sangam. He is said to have written a commentary on 'ahapporul'. It is known as

'Iraiyanar Ahapporul Urai'. Lord Siva's leelas in Madurai is legendary. The gory

Tamil literary tradition owes it to Lord Siva, as you have rightly said. When

atheistical political leaders in Tamil nadu tried to hijack the puritanical

Tamil movement(Thani tamil iyakkam) led by Maraimalai Adigal into an

atheistical route, the latter puts his foot down. He said that Tamil and Saivism

are interchangeable and cannot be separated by any means. And many hurled abuses

and chappals at him. But he stuck to his stand.

 

It is unfortunate that many who look at TN from outside tend to think it is a

land of atheists. It pains me. Although my mother tongue is Telugu, it is Tamil

which has led me to God. Every time, I sing the hymns of Thevaram and

Thiruvasagam (and now it is Thiruppavai), I am moved.

 

I am sorry if our discussion had gone off the track.

 

ulaganathan p

 

 

 

 

________________________________

J.venkatasubramanian <apexpreci2000

 

Wednesday, 17 December, 2008 5:29:20 PM

Re: Please Explain. It;s in tamil.

 

 

Namste Ulaganathan ji, Namaste All,

I referred to Manicka Vasagar again with the help of the commentary by

Srimad Chidbhavananda.

 

Swamy says, it is only in the South and especially Tamilnadu that

Shiva is worshipped with such love and depth. The twelve thirumurais

are proof. Plus the Sivagnana bodham in Tamil all add to this fact.

The saiva Agamas are all in grantha lipi, a special lipi used by South

Indians to write Sanskrit. That is why you cannot find such Agamas in

North India.

 

The legend of the sunken 'Kumari' in Indian ocean is another South

Land. There, Shiva is said to have presided over the Tamil Sangam.

Shiva and Tamilnadu are intricately intertwined. Even now, most of

Tamilnadu is Saivite. In rest of India, Vaishnavism is the dominant one.

 

I enjoyed the south> direction of death> shiva the God of death and

destruction angle.

 

Thanks

 

Venkat

 

@ s.com, ulaganathan p <apunathan@. ..> wrote:

>

> Hari Om!

>

> If I am correct, in ancient Tamil, the term 'Then pulathar' meaning

the 'southerners' is used to refer to the dead and departed souls.

Possibly, the dead souls sojourn at some region in the southern

direction, before they are despatched to other lives, according their

karma.

>

> May kindly throw more light on this.

>

> Hari Om tat sat

>

> ulaganthan p

>

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> aumji <no_reply@ s.com>

> @ s.com

> Tuesday, 16 December, 2008 1:55:56 PM

> Re: Please Explain. It;s in tamil.

>

>

> @ s.com, sarvamaatha <no_reply@ .> wrote:

> >

> > Aumji,

> >

> > Then what does East, West and North means too?

> > Sarvamaatha.

> >

> Dear sarvamatha

>

> East is linked with creation, west with preservation and north with

> spirituality.

>

> so Shiva is a god of destruction but he is owner of all directions

> also means he is manifesting as all Ishwar tattwa.

>

> Aum

>

>

>

>

> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to

http://messenger. / invite/

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " J.venkatasubramanian "

<apexpreci2000 wrote:

>

> Swamy says, it is only in the South and especially Tamilnadu that

> Shiva is worshipped with such love and depth. The twelve thirumurais

> are proof.

 

 

Whosoever said this has a very limited knowledge. Perhaps he has

never heard of Kashmir shaivism.

 

This is problem with tamilians, for them anything outside TN, does

not exist, andhara and kerala people are more open minded

 

vishnu

[Guest guest]

, kalyugivishnu5 <no_reply wrote:

 

 

> Whosoever said this has a very limited knowledge. Perhaps he has

> never heard of Kashmir shaivism.

>

> This is problem with tamilians, for them anything outside TN, does

> not exist, andhara and kerala people are more open minded

 

Pranams.

 

The Swargiya Swamy Chidbhavananda who wrote it was from Ramakrishna

Mutt and much respected. It was he who wrote the commentary to

Thiruvachagam with comparative quotations from Upanishads and Vedas, and

the Gita.

 

The present band of Saivites of Tamilnadu perfectly fit your bill. But

the 6 th cent to 13 th century Saivism was totally in sync with kashmir

Saivism. Acharyas like Sathya jothi are sacred figures in the later

literature to Agamas. But the present Adheenakartas and their followers

propagate the theory of the independence of Tamil Saivism. I am still

not sure where it originated. But Tamil saivism was very very greatly

influenced by kashmir saivism.

 

The dixitars of Chidambaram temple must have been the original people

who might have introduced Saivic tantra to the South. Periya Puranam

talks about them highly and has a 'Thillai Anthanar varalaru " in praise

of him.

 

Venkat

[Guest guest]

Hari Om1

 

I have been an admirer of Vishnuji posts in this group, for his passion and

forthrightness. But, I am sorry to say that his statement that for Tamils any

thing outside TN does not exist, is a sweeping generalisation. As a person who

had been born in this State and having Telugu as his mother tongue and having

served in AP, Karnataka, Delhi and widely travelled all over the country, you

can trust me for my objectivity. Tamil language is a treasure from the spiritual

point of view. Its antiquity and rich tradition are as valuable as that of

Sanskrit, to my view, although some would contest my comparison of it with

Sanskrit. My regret is that the present generation of this part of the country

have been oblivious to their tradition. Vulgarisation of political and social

life has prevented it from developing an expansive and universal thinking which

had been hall mark of the ancient Tamil society. There is a Sangam poem which

begins with this statement-- "

Yaathum Oorae; Yaavarum Kaelir; " menaing- 'Wherever I go that is my home;

whomever I meet are my kith and kin " . Some one told me this Subhasitham was

written in the World Trade Centre which has been destroyed in 9/11. I am

particularly enamoured about the devotional tradition of Tamil literature. I am

least interested in knowing wherefrom the worship of Siva started.

 

ulaganthan p

 

 

 

 

________________________________

kalyugivishnu5 <no_reply >

 

Thursday, 18 December, 2008 2:59:20 PM

Re: Please Explain. It;s in tamil.

 

 

@ s.com, " J.venkatasubramani an "

<apexpreci2000@ ...> wrote:

>

> Swamy says, it is only in the South and especially Tamilnadu that

> Shiva is worshipped with such love and depth. The twelve thirumurais

> are proof.

 

Whosoever said this has a very limited knowledge. Perhaps he has

never heard of Kashmir shaivism.

 

This is problem with tamilians, for them anything outside TN, does

not exist, andhara and kerala people are more open minded

 

vishnu

 

 

 

 

Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to

http://messenger./invite/

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Venkatji,

 

My understanding is that the Saiva Chidantham is generally associated with the

teachings of Thirumoolar who has written 'Thirumandiram'. He is said to be an

exponent of Saiva Tantric teaching and much of his teachings in Thirumanthiram

are beyond our comprehension. The later day Saivite saints have followed his

teachings in their hymns. It is said the celebrated saint poet Thiruvalluvar has

also been greatly influenced by Thirumoolar. Thirukural's first couplet,

invoking the 'Aadhi and Bhagavan' resembles the invocation found in

Thirumandiram.

 

As to Chidambaram conncection to Saivite tantric tradition, I am reminded of the

fact that Thirumoolar himself was orginally from Himalayas(possibly Kashmir of

yesteryears) who is said to have visited South, once to meet his friend

Agashthiyar, down south and on another occasion to Chidambaram to have darshan

of Lord Siva in his dancing posture. On one such visit which he made astrally,

he is said to have heard about the tragic incident in which Krishna was killed

by an archer and his body was hastily creameated by the hunter. They is a poem

to this effect in Thirumandiram. It was on his last trip to South, when he went

into the body of one Moolan, a shepherd youth and lived the life of the latter

to console his grieving wife, that he got himself permanently trapped in the

same body. And it is in his incarnation as Moolan that he wrote 'Thirumandiram'

at Thiruvidaimaruthur. Even the Baba who is said to be living for more than 5000

years is a contemporary

of Thirumoolar and Agasthiyar. Venkatji has rightly underscored the

non-exclusive nature of the ancient Saiva tradition. But, one has to understand

things in proper perspective. Any fervor and intensity be it for God or for any

other thing, tend to develop an exclusiveness over a period of time. Piety and

devotion are so personal that you develop a personal equation with God and you

repudiate any thing other than yourself and God. As a Siddhar said- " Aasai

arumin; Aasai arumin; Eesanodu aayinum aasai arumin- ( Kill your desire;kill

your desire; even if that be for your God " ) An perfect yogi develops an

equanimity, unswayed by desire and passion. An intense exclusiveness in religion

will give rise to fundamentalism. Our aim should be to merge ourselves in the

expansiveness of the limitless God through our sadhana.

 

Hari Om Tat Sat.

ulaganathan p

 

 

 

 

________________________________

J.venkatasubramanian <apexpreci2000

 

Friday, 19 December, 2008 6:30:28 AM

Re: Please Explain. It;s in tamil.

 

 

 

@ s.com, kalyugivishnu5 <no_reply@.. .> wrote:

 

> Whosoever said this has a very limited knowledge. Perhaps he has

> never heard of Kashmir shaivism.

>

> This is problem with tamilians, for them anything outside TN, does

> not exist, andhara and kerala people are more open minded

 

Pranams.

 

The Swargiya Swamy Chidbhavananda who wrote it was from Ramakrishna

Mutt and much respected. It was he who wrote the commentary to

Thiruvachagam with comparative quotations from Upanishads and Vedas, and

the Gita.

 

The present band of Saivites of Tamilnadu perfectly fit your bill. But

the 6 th cent to 13 th century Saivism was totally in sync with kashmir

Saivism. Acharyas like Sathya jothi are sacred figures in the later

literature to Agamas. But the present Adheenakartas and their followers

propagate the theory of the independence of Tamil Saivism. I am still

not sure where it originated. But Tamil saivism was very very greatly

influenced by kashmir saivism.

 

The dixitars of Chidambaram temple must have been the original people

who might have introduced Saivic tantra to the South. Periya Puranam

talks about them highly and has a 'Thillai Anthanar varalaru " in praise

of him.

 

Venkat

 

 

 

 

Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to

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