An Imp.Qn from All

[Guest guest]

Dear Aum

 

i think you are right. Also forgiving is not as great as people

make it. I think we should fight with full force as shantnu said.

 

I have another question Do all the saints have miracle powers ? In

India people accept a saint only if he does some miracle, like healing

or telling future.

 

Is it possible that someone is enlightened but he does not have

miraculous powers ?

 

ansuya

[Guest guest]

> If a wrestler slaps a weak man...and he says- ok I forgive you

> (becuase if he fights back he will be defeated)...so to save himself

> from shame of defeat, he hides behind the curtain of forgiveness.

> will you accept this forgiveness as genuine ?

 

Babaji, then how can the weak fight aginst the wrestler knowing that he

would be defeated. should he die fighting????

 

Initially you asked opinion from sadhaks, so if i take it as the bad

habbits which is troubling me in the path of sadhna, then defnitely we

have to fight it out instead of self sympathy.

 

But if it is a person, why not forgive that person? As you said weak

man forgiving a strong man is not Forgivness its escaping from that

scenario.

 

If that weak person is continuosly troubled by the strong, then what

should he do??? should he run off or die fighting him or accept the

trouble and die???

 

Shivaya Namah Aum.

Thiruchitrambalam.

Senthil.

[Guest guest]

> Is it possible that someone is enlightened but he does not have

> miraculous powers ?

 

Ansuyaji, Vivekanada had no powers, neither did he demonstrate any.

Neither did Raman Maharishi, Sri Aurobindo, Rajneesh, Swami Shivanand,

or any of the dozens of Yogis we are sure were very advanced, &

definitely enlightened.

 

So called Supernatural powers arent that- supernatural. They are

called so by the moderen sceptical mind that labels anything beyond

physical plane " Supernatural " .

 

Actually, all these powers exists in the Mental domain(the Manomaya

Kosha). Because people only use lower physical mind, they are not

aware of the full powers of mind, 90% of which is hidden.

 

Getting " supernatural " powers isnt that difficult- it just requires

training & effort, like becoming an architect or Doctor. If you study

for 4-5 years, you can become an architet or engineer, similarly if

you practice for 2-3 years(less or more depending on how powerful the

Siddhi is), you can get any Siddhi you want.

 

But there is no difference b/w one is an civil engineer, or someone

who has telepathic powers- both have trained thier mind to do 1 thing-

both are stuck in the mind.

 

All Eastern systems - Zen, Vedant, Tantra, say we have to go beyond

the mind- so getting these powers is as useful as becoming an

architect- it might make your physical life easier, but it wont help

you spiritually. As long as you are stuck in the mind, you can never

hope to get enlightenment, Moksha, Satori, whatever you call it.

 

Thats not to say these powers are useless- they are very useful when

they come naturally. One power is to see a persons Subtle(or astral)

body- which includes the Chakras. A Guru with this power can see how

developed his students are, & teach the advanced students(with more

open Chakras) advanced techniques, like Kundalni Yoga.

 

A Sadhak living in Tibet can talk to his guru in India with telepathy,

or do astral projection to visit him- thats why many of these

techniques were invented in Tibet- because of their harsh terrain.

 

Yet getting too attached to them takes you away from God, as you get

entangled in mental/physical domain. Inspite of all their advanced

techniques, the Tibetans or Chinese couldnt produce a Buddha.

 

love

Shantnu

[Guest guest]

, " Senthil " <senthil_sym wrote:

 

then how can the weak fight aginst the wrestler knowing that he

> would be defeated. should he die fighting????

>

 

The person who asked this question must have read all the

beautiful replies by shantnu, senthil, mayandi, aradhana and

deito.... Bala's answer is missing i think. I think the asker would

be more than satisfied to find so many suggestions.

 

You know Senthil, we Indians have mixed up so many things mainly

due to Shaiva, vaishnava, Gaura, shaktas, buddism, Tantra etc...that

we confuse many things in personal life. We always apply right

philosophy at wrong times. Where we have to fight, we forgive...

where we have to forgive, we fight. Where we have to accept karma,

we blame god, and where we have to console, we blame it on Karma

 

Gandhiji said - Non-Violence is not for Cowards... it is an

ornament of the braves..!!!

 

And this applies to Forgiving also. If a Jesus or Buddha

forgives that is real forgiving.

 

My own thoughts on this are as you and shantnu wrote.

Mahabharat and gita give us clear guidance on this.

 

My experience in life has taught me that any bad situation is

brought to you by the Universal System... to re-arrange your

energies.

 

I think i will relate my own experience that will act as my

answer on this question.

 

I faced a very bad time in office, long time ago. One of my

boss who was a drunkard and a bad man.... started attacking me.

 

As a good Sadhaka, I forgave him and this encouraged him further and

later My own subordinates shook hands with him and i was left

alone with no financial and administrative powers.

 

So much so that group became so strong that they kept harassing

me. The senior bosses did not listen to me as they said - the whole

office can not be wrong... you are wrong... I even decided to leave

my job...and go back to India.

 

I sat for meditation and asked god as to why i was punished for

no fault of mine !!!!... I really cried..and then drown into

meditation....and like a flash.. in the millionth second I saw the

purpose.

 

I then knew that running away from the fight and forgiving

him...was not what god wanted. I was thinking myself weak and

alone...whereas I was not !!!

 

so I stated the war... and finally that man was dismissed from

job and my subordinates apologised and the matter ended.

 

The Universal system was using me to punish him...which I was

evading and hence i was punished more and more.

 

 

And there is no different inner and external fight !!!

Fighting with our own bad habits...is same as fighting the enemy

outside..... we are never weak but we think we are weak.

 

so to conclude i would say, we should start with forgiving and

if the SYSTEM is continuously putting us in that situation again and

again...we should fight.

 

When a mad dog chases us... what we do ? If we have a stick

around we beat the dog.... if we dont have any way to defend...we

run away. There is no cowardice in running away from mad dog...it

is intelligence

 

so if God wishes us to fight, he would provide us with weapons

too...if he wants us to run away he will make us unarmed.

 

Krishna, the god himself ran away from Jarasandha.... and the

same Krishna forced Arjuna to fight !!!

 

 

AUM

[Guest guest]

Dear Aum,

 

In pratical life, it is really hard as you say. But that is the first

step that we are entering to sadhana. That's how we have to pratice

with our normal life.

 

Sarvamaatha.

[Guest guest]

, sarvamaatha <no_reply wrote:

>

> Dear Aum,

>

> In pratical life, it is really hard as you say. But that is the

first

> step that we are entering to sadhana. That's how we have to

pratice

> with our normal life.

>

> Sarvamaatha.

 

Dear Sarvamata,

 

Your point is right, and forgiveness is an integral part of our

sadhna... but as i told you forgiveness to save ourselves from harm

or to hide our cowardice is not forgiving actually.

 

OK tell me from the example I gave from my office.... As a

sadhaka, should i have forgiven that person, resigned from job and

went home happily...because i am doing sadhna ? so as per you my

war with that negative person was wrong as Sadhaka ??

 

Somebody does me a harm and goes away... I should forgive him as

sadhaka and continue on my path...but if he is bent upon coming back

again and again, i take it as System's will for me to fight back..as

i told in my example.

 

Even Krishna told in Mahabharata that to do tyranny is a sin, but

to suffer tyranny is bigger sin.

 

Arjuna as a good man asked the same question to Shri Krishan -

Why for a piece of land i should kill my own grandfather, my guru

and my cousins..!!!

 

Why Shri Krishna not advised Arjuna -Yes you are right...throw

away the Gandeeva and forgive these people and become a

Sanyasi...this wolrd is Maya and forgiving is the biggest virtue.

 

Instead he told - Arjuna if you do not fight...Nature will yoke

you and force you to fight...and these people are already been

killed by Me...you just be the tool..!!

 

Like someone troubled me in YA...I forgave him but left YA to

avoid further war...now if that person comes here and disturb our

satsang, should i again forgive him and leave sadhna too ???? A

sadhaka does not mean a coward person.

 

When we start on the Sadhna path, there are more disturbances from

inner self and outside.... these are sent by God to purge us of our

negativity. If we truely surrender to God then this question will

not arise.

 

As surrender does not mean forgiving when god wants us to fight...or

to fight when lord wants us to forgive.

 

So that z why i wrote... start with forgiving...but if the

negative forces continue...wake up and fight. In this war there is

no defeat of victory...

 

Same is with our own inner negativity. If we start forgiving

our negative energies... they will never let us progress. We have

to be cruel with them and kill them.

 

If a person comes to my house and start beating my child or

molesting my wife.... and i forgive him because i am doing

sadhna...God will laugh at me.

 

Forgiving, Love, compassion are to be used as help for progress,

not as a shield to hide our cowardice...this is what i mean.

 

 

 

 

AUM

[Guest guest]

Aum is correct, I agree .

 

In simple words, i want to put the following points.

 

Not fighting is NOT EQUAL TO forgiving. If Fighting is your duty, that

it is service to your god, it is merely just a job god has assigned you.

 

Than what is forgiving in layman terms. Fighting for the purpose of

service and will of lord and form heart not having any personal

intention to harm your enemy is so called " forgiving " in human terms.

 

To be precise, if you have to fight, fight as part of the order by the

supreme. Not for the desire win the fight, neither for the desire of

feeling good, when your enemy suffers, nor for the desire of showing

your supremacy.

 

the are as described in scriptures, Mainly these are derived from the

chapter on karma and its behavior from bhagavath gita. So you can take

these words for granted.

 

" when you are doing something without any related or derived desire,

than you are absolutely doing what has to be done. "

 

-- Deito

 

Harirnama Harirnama Harirnama Kevalam.

 

 

 

, " Aum " <beirut_ka_baba wrote:

>

> Forgiving, Love, compassion are to be used as help for progress,

> not as a shield to hide our cowardice...this is what i mean.

[Guest guest]

,

>

> Your point is right, and forgiveness

>

> Instead he told - Arjuna if you do not fight...Nature will yoke

> you and force you to fight...and these people are already been

> killed by Me...you just be the tool..!!

>>

> Forgiving, Love, compassion are to be used as help for progres

>

you are right baba .Many people feign greatness by claiming that

they are forgiving and calm while actually its moral cowardice and

hypocrisy.In thier heart they have no forgiveness but they pretend to

be very tolerant or indifferent and most of the times due to the fact

that they fear opposition, loss etc. They condemn and criticise

those who retaliate not even considering the situation , the feelings

of the other party. Actually its hypocrisy not to be yourself and not

allow others not to be themselves.

Principles should be kept above everything. I know people dont like

straight forward people but its these people who can forgive andd

fight at the same time.

[Guest guest]

, " i_free_spirit " <i_free_spirit

wrote:

 

> Principles should be kept above everything. I know people dont like

> straight forward people but its these people who can forgive andd

> fight at the same time.

>

 

Aradhna you wrote so good. i like this point very much. But tell me

should a straight forward person hurt others in the name of Truth or

should avoid it. In sadhna not hurting others is also necessary

 

thanks bala deito and aum for so great replies

 

ansuya

[Guest guest]

Thank you your excellency, Very nice and accurate... and i should

agree, very strong words, I can feel that these are penning down of

heart felt words by you.

 

-- Deito

 

Harirnama Harirnama Harirnama Kevalam.

 

, " i_free_spirit " <i_free_spirit

wrote:

> straight forward people but its these people who can forgive andd

> fight at the same time.

>

[Guest guest]

, ansuya80 <no_reply wrote:

>

> , " i_free_spirit " <i_free_spirit@>

> wrote:

>

> > Principles should be kept above everything. I know people dont like

> > straight forward people but its these people who can forgive andd

> > fight at the same time.

> >

 

>

> Dear ansuya,

 

>People build walls between thier inner lives and outer lives. They

think about the society, image, how people will react to them etc. Not

only it makes them weak but they loose thier true self. They go too far

to realise what is really good for them or not.They kill thier true

selves in thier effort to project a good image of themselves or adhere

to the conventions of a hypocritical society. This is definitely not

the way to be spiritual.

If I am really compassionate and good I will speak or do that which is

honest or just without any consideration for the consequences.

Truthfulness is in the heart. The one who is honest will never resort

to devious ways to do anything. If you think that doing this will anger

or hurt someone and for that you keep quiet irrespective of the fact

that in the long run its not going to be good for that person then it

isnt honesty.

 

If Tulsidas' was had not rebuked or hurt him for speaking a truth about

his idiosyncrasies he would not have written Ramacharitamanas perhaps

 

We can be humble and yet honest . Honesty helps everyone. It never

really hurts anyone. If people feel offended despite your good

intentions then its thier fault .You can only do your duty.

Mahatma Gandhi says truth is the highest religion. If somebody

practices truth he develops love for it for that like Gandhi he gives

his life too. Now if Gandhi would have cared for people who abused him

for favouring Muslims thinking that it will hurt thier stupid emotions

India would not have been the secular place it is.

[Guest guest]

I say that we are always the greater when we actively forgive. We

don't hang on, we don't want repercussions, we don't expect the person

who wronged us to 'pay' for the rest of their lives. True forgiveness

is just that. We only have that moment and then it's over. It must

be since we are only alive moment to moment. I think Jesus realized

this although his message gets distorted. HOWEVER, if something is

harmful to you or someone's thoughts are causing you harm and then

there arises a need in you to cause harm then you must remove yourself

from that situation. There are lots of ways to 'remove one's self'

until it no longer causes harm to you or the other person. If you

think about Ghandi, he was actively protesting a wrong but he also

caused no harm and that is difficult particularly in the cut throat

world of work/western civilization. I think of Ghandi as a warrior.

He found a very worthy thing to battle and decided how he would go

about doing it.

I think that sometimes it's best to take the higher ground (as that is

a true warrior) and not engage the person who is fighting you for

something. In that way, you continue to do your job and it is THEY

who have to struggle (unfortunately). If someone takes your job then

I feel it is something I/you have not done to fulfill that job. Bhakti!

All things done with intention for God or with Bhakti have more

substantial ground. To me, right now, Bhakti is the root of

everything. It all feels empty otherwise. Just my thoughts....

Namaskaram and thank you AUM for creating this community. You ROCK!

 

 

 

 

, " Aum " <beirut_ka_baba wrote:

>

> Dear Sadhakas,

>

> During chatting with a new sadhaka he posed me the following

> question :

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Aum,

 

I could agree only 50%. I have asked Ma too. Waiting for her

answers. because the things happening in my life, she asked me to

keep quite. So i thought it is love that can change people.

Forgiving is also one love.

 

 

> Like someone troubled me in YA...I forgave him but left YA to

> avoid further war...now if that person comes here and disturb our

> satsang, should i again forgive him and leave sadhna too ???? A

> sadhaka does not mean a coward person.

 

See, you really fight, but any answers? No. But if you stayed in

and answer most of the question who are waiting for you

answers and most of them needed your help. It is their love towards

you. you came out. why didn't you stay there and just don't mind his

answers.

 

>

> If a person comes to my house and start beating my child or

> molesting my wife.... and i forgive him because i am doing

> sadhna...God will laugh at me.

>

 

For this i would say fight. Because there is nothing to avoide. But

i wish after fighting, i would surely tell them how they were wrong

and advice them. Still i would forgive them.Atleast i will try my

best to correct them. But i have asked this question to MA, as i

never thought such a way. If i get answers, will sure let you know.

 

Sarvamaatha.

[Guest guest]

, sarvamaatha <no_reply wrote:

>

> Dear Aum,

>

> I could agree only 50%. I have asked Ma too. Waiting for her

 

 

My dear sarvamatha, as Deito b'fully said - Not fighting is not

forgiving.

 

We must forgive and then fight !! Forgiving actually means no

desire to take revenge and no hate towards the subject.

 

This fight is like a scientist killing the bacteria to save

humanity.... he does not hate the bacteria, nor is he taking any

revenge... he is killing them as his duty.

 

Mother Durga fought and killed so many demons... but she forgave

them and gave them Moksha...she did not hate them.

 

So the key is not to hate, not to take revenge and set of which is

called forgiving.

 

In 99% of the forgivings we see around are hypocricies, as

Aradhana told.

 

If Mother wishes us to forgive...we must forgive...and if Mother

asks us to fight fight we must.... This is real sadhna

 

With Love

 

 

AUM

 

Abt YA it was not qn of avoiding... if a group reports yr answers

and gets them deleted and dictate terms... one has two alternatives

One - to make a counter group and delete their answers as YA is a

dumb computer..any 5 reports and qn/ans is gone, even if it does not

have anything wrong TWO- i stay there like a shameless person and

follow the terms dictated by some mentallly sick person (like I will

not reply to Flora and Heron's questions)...and like a coward

continue there.... I rejected both....Because MA asked me to leave.

And those who loved me are here we are having better discussions

here than YA.. what do you think??

[Guest guest]

Dear Aum,

 

when i read your post now. I wish i have taken your points in a

different way. Now i can understand what you exactly came to say.

sorry Aum, i really didn't mean to say about this . As you

mentioned it. i also replyed to it. Sorry if it hurt you.

 

Smiles,

sarvamaatha.

 

 

 

> My dear sarvamatha, as Deito b'fully said - Not fighting is not

> forgiving.

>

> We must forgive and then fight !! Forgiving actually means no

> desire to take revenge and no hate towards the subject.

>

> This fight is like a scientist killing the bacteria to save

> humanity.... he does not hate the bacteria, nor is he taking any

> revenge... he is killing them as his duty.

[Guest guest]

, deito01 <no_reply wrote:

 

Fighting for the purpose of

> service and will of lord and form heart not having any personal

> intention to harm your enemy is so called " forgiving " in human terms.

 

 

Deito brother... this is wonderful...cant be said in better words.

 

Forgiving is a tricky word. As you said in yr last post...we are

no one to forgive others. It is the Lord always who forgives.

 

In fact when we forgive, we do not forgive other, but we forgive

ourselves. When we say I forgive him actually means I forgive myself

for having hate or revenge from that person.

 

By our forgiving, the other is not free from the Karmic debt..he

has to face the result of his Karma today or tommorrow...By forgiving

we would avoid one more karmic chain on ourselves.

 

sometimes when the Lord commands us to fight and we forgive, it is

like insulting the lord...and Nature may punish for the inaction.

 

As shantnu wrote in one of his posts...Nature not only punishes

for bad Karma, but punishes for inaction too.

 

AUM

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

1. Our elders have told us... Saama, Daana, beda, dandam..

 

Try to be calm, if that does not work,

try to diffuse by giving in, if it is not working,

try to scare away, if that too does not work,

Dandam...The STICK...

 

2. But what ever we do, When we do it with awareness and do it 100%, we

are in God...

An aware person cannot do wrong.....A loving person cannot do wrong....

Then God / existence will show you a way out of your trouble.

 

3. But then think of this.. Suppose your child... tries to harm you... What

will you do?? Kill your child or move away... Even if it means loosing your

wealth or conforts....

 

4. We cannot justify Violence... But it again depends on what level we are

in.. If we are a Buddha.. Killing will become impossible for us.. As we are

everything...

 

But if we are in the world and are playing a character... then it is

different........

 

5. " Sarva dharman parityajya.. maam ekma sharam vraja "

 

I would like to interpret Krishna's words in the Gita in this way...

 

Leaving aside all thoughts of right and wrong.... Surrender to ME

alone (abide in the conciousness within).

 

Then what ever you do, you are playing the part God has destined upon you...

 

No need to run away from anything.. the world becomes your temple... Your

SELF the sought.

 

 

I know I have spoken of many sides to this debate... But these are the

answers I got from my self or different situtations... So In my opinion

There is no one answer for this question... There are as many answers as

there are people.

 

To find a verbal and mental answer for all the questions inside is a

distraction of the Mind.. It is a disease of the Mind... Focus more on the

self inside.. Become the awareness itself.. and all your questions will

cease.... You will loose the urge to look for answers...

 

God is the Answer... the Only answer..

 

Love

 

Bala...

 

 

 

 

 

On 9/14/07, Aum <beirut_ka_baba wrote:

> As shantnu wrote in one of his posts...Nature not only punishes

> for bad Karma, but punishes for inaction too.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Aum,I am very happy my suggessions added some value atleast to

the thread.

 

All my knowledge at his Lordship, If i can make use of the Knowledge

and strength he has bestowed me , Than i consider blessing.

 

Vaikuntha nathaya Namaha, Trivikramaya Namaha, Adi purushaya Namaha.

Harirnama Harirnama Harirnama Kevalam.

 

, " Aum " <beirut_ka_baba wrote:

> Deito brother... this is wonderful...cant be said in better

words.

>

> Forgiving is a tricky word. As you said in yr last post...we

are