Is Enlightenment possible without clearing Karmic Debts?

[Guest guest]

A friend on YA asked this very important question...as to is it not a

pre-requisite to clear karmic debts before we attain enlightenment ?

 

I personally do not think so, because I am taking Enlightenment

different from Moksha.

 

What do you think ?

 

love

[Guest guest]

Here we are talking of two different planes of existence, physical or

material plane and the spiritual plane i.e. the plane of pure consciousness.

Karmic debts or whatever exist in the former and the Enlightenment in the

latter. Once one transcends the physical plane, as in the case of

Enlightenment, Karmic debts have no meaning and no influence on

Enlightenment. Once one attains Enlightenment (we may call it Moksha while

living in the body), only Prarabdha is in force until body drops. For an

Enlightened person, after his body drops, the subtle and causal bodies

(where one's Karmic reactions are stored) also get destroyed (this is a

state of final Moksha).

 

Scriptures tell us that the Karmic reactions of an enlightened person affect

the people around him. Those who serve the Enlightened person, they get his

good Karmas, and those who find fault with him, they are affected by his bad

Karmas.

 

radhakutir

OM

 

 

-

" beirut_ka_baba " <no_reply >

 

Monday, April 09, 2007 12:49 PM

Is Enlightenment possible without clearing Karmic Debts?

 

 

A friend on YA asked this very important question...as to is it not a

pre-requisite to clear karmic debts before we attain enlightenment ?

 

I personally do not think so, because I am taking Enlightenment

different from Moksha.

 

What do you think ?

 

love

 

 

 

 

--

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Enlightenment is the process whereby one becomes aware of ones True

Self. This can occur even in a person with many Karmic debts remaining.

 

Sanskaars always remain, even for the enlightened person, except they

lose the power to affect him, or to force him to act. Such a person

can pay of his debts when he wants, how he wants.

 

Since such a person identifies with the Cosmic Soul, he cant have any

Karma, as it is only individual souls who identify with their actions

& hence create Karma. An enlightened person may still choose to pay

off some debts, but it will be as part of the Divine Plan, & not under

any compulsion from Nature.

[Guest guest]

Dear Babaji,

I always thought Enlightenment and Moksha to be one.

Could you be kind enough to tell us the difference between the two.

 

Pradeep

 

 

 

, beirut_ka_baba <no_reply wrote:

>

> A friend on YA asked this very important question...as to is it

not a

> pre-requisite to clear karmic debts before we attain

enlightenment ?

>

> I personally do not think so, because I am taking

Enlightenment

> different from Moksha.

>

> What do you think ?

>

> love

>

[Guest guest]

, radhakutir <radhaktr wrote:

>

> Here we are talking of two different planes of existence, physical

 

Thanks Swamiji,

 

So you are taking Enlightenment as Moksha... perhaps this is

due to the jumbling of words.

 

So what do we call a person who has not yet attained the Moksha,

but have had glimpses of truth and is highly progressed on the path

of sadhna....Like some saints who have glimpsed the truth, but still

away from Moksha...what word should be used for them ( I use

enlightenment for them)

 

The question arose, when a friend asked as how some enlightened

souls (Like guru Nanak, Kabir, Lahiri Mahasya etc)...got married

while they were enlightened.

 

The question that they got married, implies they did it to clear

the karmic debts.... which implies that though they were enlightened

and had seen the Truth, yet they were not out of certain Karmic

debts, which results in the statement that they were enlightened,

but had not yet attained Moksha !

 

Please help me solve this riddle

 

with my respect and love

[Guest guest]

i think marriage is a karam if it is performed according to

shastras. yog,debt and bhog are the ways to spend the result of any

karma.

 

 

, beirut_ka_baba <no_reply wrote:

>

> , radhakutir <radhaktr@> wrote:

> >

> > Here we are talking of two different planes of existence,

[Guest guest]

I think Moksha is a very misleading word, one that is used by everyone

without knowing its real meaning.

 

If used in the sense freedom from rebirth, it is not such a big deal:

from what Ive read, almost 90% of all begings live in the astral

world, where they have no pain or misery, though they have no progress

either; they stay the same for millions of years. If they want to go

further, they have to accept ignorance & pain, which is the hallmark

of the physical world. Only very few of them want to progress further,

even then there is a line, & they have to wait several 100 or 1000

years before they can find suitable parents & astrological conditions.

 

As such, freedom from rebirth isnt such a big deal, as it can be had

by becoming one of these Higher Astral beings, which is possible by

just doing charity, Yagya & good deeds.

 

The real challenge is becoming Enlightened; as I said, these beings

have to accepts Mother Natures Law if they are born, including the

fact they may have to suffer pain. Thats why in Hindus we dont blame

God for our misery, as it was our own soul that accepted the

challenges when it chose to be born.

 

An Enlightened person, on the other hand, is n longer under Natures

control. Even if he has to suffer for the Divine plan, he does so

willingly. Take Jesus example. He had so many superpowers- raising the

dead, healing, walking on water. Couldnt he have used them to escape?

But he didnt, as he was sacrificing himself willingly, for the

revolution he knew could only happen if he died.

 

We can only guess if this was in Jesus Karma from some previous life

to die like this, or whether it was a new Karma(while the early

Gnostic Christians believed in rebirth, the Church didnt & persecuted

everyone who did, so we have no idea of Jesus previous lives) or

whether it was because he took on bad Karma of others.

 

But the fact is, it doesnt matter: Since Jesus was enlightened, it

didnt matter what happened to him. He wasnt under Natures control, &

chose his own death(which he predicted few days before).

 

To summarise: Freedom frm rebirth isnt a big deal. The big deal is

getting full Gyan, then helping Mother Nature progress other souls.

Till now, Hindus & Buddhists have been preaching merging into some

sort of silent Brahm, & escape from World. Only Tantra says that we

should return to help the world, which should be our main goal.

[Guest guest]

What karma? Whose karma?

[Guest guest]

Hi Radhakutir,

 

Which scripture talks about karmic reactions of

enlightened persons. I have also heard about it. In

Ramana maharishis life, an ashram manager files a

false case against ramana maharishi. Finally he

suffered a lot and died on the street. A jnani doesnt

have hatred, so it is not Ramanas will. Probably

Cosmic law or karmic reactions must have caused it.

 

I have one question

Does Prarabdha has any role in speeding up or delaying

enlightment.

 

Regards

Balaji

 

 

--- radhakutir <radhaktr wrote:

 

>

[Guest guest]

Om Namah shivaya.

 

Fantastic Point ShanracerJI.

 

> To summarise: Freedom frm rebirth isnt a big deal. The big deal is

> getting full Gyan, then helping Mother Nature progress other souls.

> Till now, Hindus & Buddhists have been preaching merging into some

> sort of silent Brahm, & escape from World. Only Tantra says that we

> should return to help the world, which should be our main goal.

 

Even after attaining Moksha few saints i have heard ( Nava Brindavan -

a place where 9 saints had their Jeeva Samadhi some few hunderd

years ago ) their soul remained in this material world to guide the

earthly beings.

 

Its a clear question of what next when one attains moksha and enters

higher astral plane? you said it fantastically.

 

A DIFFERENT PROSPECT ALTOGETHER!!! WORK TOWARDS ENLIGHTMENT, WHEN

ENLIGHTEN YOU WILL AUTOMATICALLY GET OUT OF MOTHER NATURES CONTROLL,

THEN CHOOSE YOU NEED NO BIRTH OR YOU NEED TO STAY BACK TO HELP MOTHER

NATURE. ( pls correct me if i understood wrongly ).

 

Thanks for your insight ShanracerJI. Babaji pls let us know your

thoughts on ShanracerJI's post.

 

Shivaya Namah AUM.

Thiruchitrambalam.

Senthil.

 

 

>

[Guest guest]

Yes Senthil you are right. It isnt such an unbelievable idea, as thru

the history many have returned or stayed on to help others. Hanumanji

is a clear example. Also, Babaji & other Siddhas like him who roam the

Himalayas helping people. Alice Baileys Guru was a Tibetan, who lived

in Hiamalayas, & helped people telepathically.

 

Such people arent limited by time space. Hanuman could jump the whole

sea in one jump. Babaji created a golden palace by just his will.

 

And why forget, the ultimate Guru of Hindus, Krisha, has already shown

us how to live in the world, & still be untouched by it. He married,

had children, fought wars, yet was untouched by any Karma. So how can

we say that living in world & being enlightened is impossible!

[Guest guest]

, shanracer <no_reply wrote:

Thanks shanracer,

 

it is a very good post and clears many doubts. Radhakutir ji you

are 100% correct when you say Moksh is not gradual and the last jump

is instaneous.

 

So if we take enlightenement = Moksha, what word should be used

for those, who have not yet attained moksha but have made great

progress ?

 

Can they be called Siddha or Yogis ? or any other good word for

them?

 

love

 

baba

[Guest guest]

Sir, your example seems to prove the point. It must be some sort of a cosmic

law.

 

I reproduce below from Tattav Bodha of Sankaracharya the following passage,

the English translation only:

 

Section 13. Freedom from Bondage:

 

The Sanchit Karma is destroyed by the knowledge " I am Brahman " .

 

The Agami Karma is also destroyed by Janana, and the Jnani is not affected

by it just as a lotus leaf is not affected by water on it.

 

Further those who praise, worship and adore the Jnani, to them go the

results of good actions done by the Janani.

 

Those who abuse, hate or cause pain or sorrow to a Janani - to them go the

results of the sinful actions done by the Janani.

 

Thus the knower of the Self, having crossed the Samsara, attains the Supreme

Bliss here itself.

 

" Tarati Shokam Atmvit iti Sruteh "

The Sruti affirms: :the knower of the Self goes beyond all sorrow " .

 

 

 

radhakutir

OM

 

 

-

" Balaji Muthukrishnan " <raja_balaji

 

Thursday, April 12, 2007 1:36 PM

Re: Is Enlightenment possible without clearing Karmic

Debts?

 

 

> Hi Radhakutir,

>

> Which scripture talks about karmic reactions of

> enlightened persons. I have also heard about it. In

> Ramana maharishis life, an ashram manager files a

> false case against ramana maharishi. Finally he

> suffered a lot and died on the street. A jnani doesnt

> have hatred, so it is not Ramanas will. Probably

> Cosmic law or karmic reactions must have caused it.

>

> I have one question

> Does Prarabdha has any role in speeding up or delaying

> enlightment.

>

> Regards

> Balaji

>

>

> --- radhakutir <radhaktr wrote:

>

>>

>

 

 

--

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Om namah Shivaya.

 

I discussed this topic with few of my freinds and i would like to

post here the details.

 

Enlightment = MUKTHI - a path of Vaishnavam / vainavam.

MOKSHA - a path of Shivam.

 

Two different prospective MUKTHI - Enlightment can be acheived

following vainavam and MOKSHA can be acheived following Shivam.

 

It is not that a person following Shivam cannot atain MUKTHI, but

inturn one has to follow shivam to attain MOKSHA. Our elders here

used say, start with Ganesha, then progess with VISHNNU and then

proceed towards SHIVA.

 

One can Just worship Vishnu and leave it off ( attaining MUKTHI -

Enightment and no need to proceed for MOKSHA )but if you worship

Shiva it will not be completed without worshiping Vishnu, so start

with Vishnu and end with Shiva ( MUKTHI is a must to attain MOKSHA

and it depends on a person who has attained MUKTHI needs MOKSHA or

not).

 

here there seems to be a Logic, Enlightment - MUKTHI and MOKSHA.

 

Sri Ramakrishana advised Swami vivekananda, " attaining Moksha is not

the goal of your life and its your goal to serve the people here with

your knowledge " ,

 

these were a few points which was put forward in our discussion, pls

correct me if we are wrong.

 

Thanks.

Shivaya Namah AUM.

Thiruchitrambalam.

Senthil.

[Guest guest]

, " Senthil " <senthil_sym wrote:

>

> Om namah Shivaya.

>

 

Thanks senthil for thought provoking reply. As shanracer indicated

in his wonderful post, Mukti from birth and death is not real Mukti.

 

Vaishanavites talk of Salokya mukti, sayujya mukti etc....which is

as good as Moksha. Vaishvanites, believe that they retain subtle ego

even after mukti and remain in the loka of Vishnu, as separate identity

 

Of course, it is true as per our scriptures. As swamiji wrote...

Moksha is Moksha, can we say safely that all types of Muktis are

same???...just difference of words. If we look at different types of

Muktis, they are not same

 

Sayujya Mukti - Where we live in God... no ego

Salokya mukti - where we live with God - subtle ego remains

Nirvana (buddhist)- we merge into a void... no ego, no god, no

bliss

Prakriti-laya - those who become one with Nature - no ego

Videha-Mukti - Those who see the truth while in Body

Kaivalya Mukti - Where one's consciousness merges into God while

being in body

 

So can we say all these are same ? I dont think so !!!

 

So a Mukta is not really Mukta in real sense, if there are different

version, states of mind.... Which one of the above is True MOKSHA ??

 

with love

[Guest guest]

Karmic debts can`t be calculated in any units by humans. What is karma ? Is it

an action ,inaction or a state of mind and a wish? Mukti , Nirvana are states of

mind. Vaishnavites believe that following VISHISTAADWAITHIC principles gives us

MOKSHA Moksha is a state of being one with Vishnu. No seperate identity.

Please discuss

ijswamy

 

beirut_ka_baba <no_reply > wrote:

[Guest guest]

Mukti/Moksha is not a state of Mind !!

 

Moksha is when our consciousness transcends Mind, and Intellect

and awakens in the Ritambhara Pragya... or in the supreme

Consciousness, called God.

 

Vaishvanites believe both Sayujya and Salokya muktis as equal...

with ego or without ego.

 

love

 

, " J.SWAMY IRAGAVARAPU "

<jiragavarapu wrote:

>

> Karmic debts can`t be calculated in any units by humans. What is

karma ? Is it an action ,inaction or a state of mind and a wish?

Mukti , Nirvana are states of mind. Vaishnavites believe that

following VISHISTAADWAITHIC principles gives us MOKSHA Moksha is a

state of being one with Vishnu. No seperate identity.

> Please discuss

> ijswamy

>

> beirut_ka_baba <no_reply > wrote:

>