Amma Interview

[Guest guest]

Namaste

 

This is a posting of an interview with Amma. She gave this one several

years ago. Like Amma it is timeless. What the Interviewer says about

Amma in the first paragraphs is the same thing that could be said about

Amma this very day. . .and the day before that. . .and the day to follow

on most any given day for Amma. . .

 

This interview expresses perfectly the Amma i know and love. When i

first read this interview it was not new information about Amma it was

validation of the direction experience and inexpressible grace of being

an Amma devotee. Surely many have read this offering from Amma I

often re-read these words from Amma and they seem perfect to start this

2010 New Year. It is a new beginning may this year be one of love and

greater spiritual maturity.

 

And may the last words be Amma. . . .

 

Aum Amriteswaryai Namaha

 

marci

ordinary sparrow

 

" When You Go Beyond the Ego You Become an Offering to the World. . .

 

 

Mata Amritanandamayi

 

Interview from Enlighten Magazine by Amy Edelstein

 

A tiny dark-skinned woman draped in a white sari beams as she totters

down the aisle of loving devotees. Their outstretched hands are like

feather plumes, waving, reaching to brush her as she leaves the crowded

hall. Her face is placid, strong and fully alert, as it has been

unwaveringly for the last five hours, but her exhausted body can hardly

balance; it seems that she may even topple over in a faint before she

reaches the waiting car outside. The right shoulder of her sari is

stained dark from the sweat and tears of a thousand cheeks that have

found succor there. Mata Amritanandamayi has, since early this morning,

without pause for food or even a sip of water, literally held one

thousand people to her bosom, listened to their troubles and their

deepest spiritual longings, showered them with flower petals, pressed

sweet prasad [consecrated offerings] into their palms, blessed their

photos, malas [prayer beads] and children; and one after the other, each

and every supplicant has received the same undivided cosmic love from

Ammachi, the Holy Mother.

 

Young and old, married and single, male and female, wealthy,

impoverished, beautiful, crippled, suspicious, crazy and sincere—all

are welcomed without exception. And as she embraces each one, chanting

softly " Ma, Ma, Ma, Ma " in each person's ear, the transmission of

compassion coming from her is one steady stream that never ebbs, never

wavers, and her shining face never registers even the slightest trace of

preference or fear regardless of who kneels before her.

 

They say that Ammachi is an avatar, an incarnation of the Divine on

earth. They say that her ego has been completely destroyed, that all

vestiges of identification with a separate sense of self have been

annihilated. They say when she looks out, she sees only one Self in

everyone.

 

So from one who is said to have crossed over, what can we learn about

the right relationship to ego? If her eyes see only God, does the ego

even exist, in her view? What is this mahatma's [great soul's] message

to true seekers of moksha [liberation] when it comes to the most

fundamental and ultimately challenging battle of spiritual life? How

does her apparently infinite love manifest when it meets the enemy of

her disciples, the ego?

 

Mata Amritanandamayi's guidance for the seeker of liberation is simple

and absolute: Serve God and surrender the ego and all its desires. She

says, as many of the most revered saints and sages throughout history

have also proclaimed, " Contentment ensues from egolessness. And

egolessness comes from devotion, love and utter surrender to the Supreme

Lord. "

 

Ammachi's public teachings take place at traditional gatherings that are

called " Devi Bhava " [literally " mood of the Goddess " ] and " darshan "

[audience with a guru], where she hugs and blesses all who come to see

her. Almost a quarter of a million people seek her out every year, and

she receives each and every one of them, giving them love and helping

them with both spiritual and mundane concerns. She cannot turn anyone

away, for to the Divine Mother, all are equal in their need for love.

" During the Bhava, " she explains, " different kinds of people come to see

me, some out of devotion, others for a solution to their worldly

problems and others for relief from diseases. I discard none. Can I

reject them? Are they different from me? Are we not all beads strung on

the one life thread? According to each one's level of thinking, they see

me. Both those who love me and those who hate me are the same to me. "

 

Ammachi is indefatigable, or at least physical fatigue seems to weigh

little on her. Her meditation on the divine current appears to drown out

all bodily consciousness. Even after traveling all the way from India to

Europe, or sleeping for only an hour the night before, Ammachi arrives

precisely on time to give darshan. She answers spiritual questions,

distributes bhasma [sacred healing ash] to the sick, and not until five

or six hours and seven, eight or nine hundred souls later, when the very

last person has been received, will she get up for food and a short rest

before returning only a few hours later, again precisely on time, to

chant, meditate and receive the thousand or so more spiritual pilgrims

who have come for her blessing hug.

 

Often referring to herself in the third person, Ammachi describes the

passion that animates her: " Each and every drop of Mother's blood, each

and every particle of her energy is for her children [devotees]. . . .

The purpose of this body and of Mother's whole life is to serve her

children. Mother's only wish is that her hands should always be on

someone's shoulders, consoling and caressing them and wiping their

tears, even while breathing her last. " Selfless service, Ammachi

teaches, is the whole of her life and is the path she prescribes for

spiritual seekers who are committed to transcending the ego, to

destroying the separate sense of self.

 

By all accounts the hardest worker at her ashram in Idamannel, in

southern India, Ammachi is a living example of her teaching. She can be

found carrying bricks to building sites, tending cows or cleaning

toilets in addition to meeting with her brahmacharis and brahamacharinis

[male and female celibate students] and seeing to all ashram affairs.

Her disciples tell stories of how, even after a long day of receiving

visitors, Ammachi will cook for them and feed them like little children,

with her own hand. She also fulfills a world travel and teaching

schedule that keeps all of her closest devotees on the brink of

exhaustion and has inspired numerous charitable works—ambitious

projects that have tangibly uplifted thousands of people's lives,

including a brand-new, state-of-the-art $55 million, 800-bed heart

transplant hospital, an orphanage for 600 children, 5,000 free houses

for the poor and one of the finest computer colleges in her native state

of Kerala.

 

Ammachi's compassion seems virtually limitless. She is so intoxicated

with God that she seems to have burned out every trace of personal

desire, and many the world over revere her as the very embodiment of

unconditional love. And yet, Mata Amritanandamayi, the " Mother of

Immortal Bliss, " has a wrathful face as well. As unconditionally

accepting as she is of those who initially come to see her, for those

who have chosen to live their lives under her tutelage as her disciples,

she is known to be an equally demanding and exacting spiritual teacher.

Her discipline can be fierce; to come close to Ammachi, her students

say, is to come close to the fire.

 

In Ammachi's teachings, the role of the guru is to " break the ego of the

disciple " so that " they can know reality. " She warns them of the dangers

of the ego, saying: " Blindness of the eyes is bearable and can be

managed. . . . You can still have a loving and compassionate heart. But

when you are blinded by the ego, you are completely blind. . . . The

blindness carried by the ego pushes you into complete darkness. "

 

Ammachi believes that the path to liberation is a path of humility and

obedience, and that it is only by bowing down to the guru that the

disciple can keep his or her ego in check. Long-term students readily

tell stories of hardships and tests, of the " ego bashing " and " ego

rebellion " that they experience at the feet of their beloved guru. They

speak frequently and respectfully of the tough schedules, physical

discomfort and strict discipline that have tested them more than a

little. " It is not always easy being with Mother, " they say, " but she

helps to speed up our karma. "

 

One Western student of thirteen years described some of the many ways

Ammachi challenges her disciples and explained how in her own case

Ammachi has separated her from her husband for long periods of time to

help further their sadhana [spiritual practice] and " put pressure on

their egos. " Ammachi's ordained students observe strict celibacy, and

residents of her ashram practice eight hours of meditation a day in

addition to their karma yoga [selfless service]. Her disciples sleep

little, often only four hours a night, and not infrequently just one or

two. " It keeps us on the edge all the time and teaches us surrender, "

one devotee said. " If you want for yourself, you end up frustrated and

angry, so you learn to let go. "

 

When once asked by a visitor whether hard work, like carrying bricks,

doesn't unfairly tax the brahmacharis, Ammachi without hesitation

explained why she will sometimes call her students to labor even late at

night after they have gone to sleep: " Amma wants to see how many of them

have the spirit of selflessness, or whether they are just living for

bodily comforts. On such occasions we can see if their meditation is

doing them any good. We have to develop the readiness to help when

others are struggling. Otherwise, what is the point of doing tapas

[austerities]? "

 

Ammachi knows well the weaknesses of human nature. Often when her

disciples are proud or stubborn and do not heed her guidance, she will

fast, refusing both food and water. Knowing that their beloved guru is

going hungry on their behalf is the worst punishment they could be

given, her brahmacharis confess. " The true guru will not allow an iota

of ego to grow [in a disciple], " Ammachi says. " To check the growth of

pride, the guru may act in a very cruel manner. . . . People who see the

blacksmith forging a hot piece of iron with his hammer may think that he

is a cruel person. The iron piece may also think that nowhere can there

be such a brute. But while dealing each blow, the blacksmith is only

thinking of the end product. The real guru is also like this. "

 

For some observers, Ammachi's standards for her disciples seem harsh and

disconcertingly contrary to the unconditional love she expresses in her

all-embracing role as the Divine Mother. And in a time when the notion

of unconditional love is held so dear in the minds of many Western

seekers, Mother's two opposing bhavas [moods] challenge some deeply

rooted beliefs. So what is compassion in the face of the ego? What is

the right relationship to this perennial enemy of the seeker after

enlightenment? In Paris, for two and a half hours in the middle of

Ammachi's darshan, I had the rare privilege of interviewing this

extraordinary woman for this issue of WIE.

 

 

 

 

WIE: What is ego?

 

MATA AMRITANANDAMAYI: You are actually asking, what is unreality? But

how can unreality be described? What use is there in talking about

something that isn't real, that is nonexistent? And how can you speak

about that which is real? Amma can only give you a few hints. The mind

is the ego. But the ego is a big lie—it is a liar. It is unreal.

 

There was a cowherd boy who took his cows to the meadows every morning

and brought them back to the cowshed at the end of the day. One evening,

as he was tying the cows up for the night, the boy found that one of

them was missing her rope. He feared that she might run away, but it was

too late to go and buy a new rope. The boy didn't know what to do, so he

went to a wise man who lived nearby and sought his advice. The wise man

told the boy to pretend to tie the cow, and make sure that the cow saw

him doing it. The boy did as the wise man suggested and pretended to tie

the cow. The next morning the boy discovered that the cow had remained

still throughout the night. He untied all the cows as usual, and they

all went outside. He was about to go to the meadows when he noticed that

the cow with the missing rope was still in the cowshed. She was standing

on the same spot where she had been all night. He tried to coax her to

join the herd, but she wouldn't budge. The boy was perplexed. He went

back to the wise man who said, " The cow still thinks she is tied up. Go

back and pretend to untie her. " The boy did as he was told, and the cow

happily left the cowshed. This is what the guru does with the ego of the

disciple. The guru helps untie that which was never there. Like the cow,

due to our ignorance, we believe that we are bound by the ego when, in

fact, we are completely free. We need to be convinced of this, however.

 

The ego is an illusion with no existence of its own. It appears to be

real because of the power it derives from the Atman [self]. It is

animated by the Atman. The ego itself can be compared to dead matter;

for without the Atman, it would have no life. Stop supporting the ego,

and it will withdraw and disappear. We ourselves lend the unreal ego its

reality. Expose it for what it is, or rather, for what it isn't, and

that will be the end of it.

 

A dog wags its tail—the tail does not wag the dog. If the tail were

to wag the dog, it would be disastrous! The same is true with the mind.

The mind, or the ego, should be nothing more than a useful tool; a

sadhaka [spiritual seeker] shouldn't let him- or herself be ruled by the

whims and fancies of the mind.

 

The ego consists of our thoughts and our mind. Our thoughts are our own

creation. We make them real by cooperating with them. If we withdraw our

support, they will dissolve. We simply have to observe our thoughts. The

clouds in the sky assume different shapes, and they change constantly.

You may see clouds drifting by that look like faces of the gods or

different animals or sailing ships. A small child may believe that these

shapes are real, but, of course, they are only illusions. In the same

way, our ever changing thoughts drift through the mind, which is the

ego. They assume different forms, but they are no more real than the

shape of a cloud in the sky. If we simply witness our thoughts as they

drift by, they will no longer have any effect on us or influence us in

any way.

 

A lion made of sandalwood is real to a child, but to a grown-up it's a

piece of sandalwood. For the child, the wood is concealed, revealing

only the lion. The grown-up may also enjoy the lion, but he knows it is

not real. For him, the wood is real, not the lion. In the same way, to a

Self-realized soul, the entire universe is nothing but the essence, the

" wood " that comprises everything, the Absolute Brahman or Consciousness.

 

WIE: What is ego death for the true seeker of moksha [liberation]?

 

MA: If the ego is unreal, what death are you talking about? We

superimpose the unreal on the real. What really exists is Brahman. There

is no discovery, only uncovering.

 

WIE: What are the signs of true ego transcendence?

 

MA: One who has gone beyond the ego becomes an offering to the world,

like an incense stick that burns itself out while bestowing its

fragrance to others. For such a person there is no sense of otherness.

It is difficult to say what a clear sign would be. People pretend or

they imitate this and that quality—but for a real master, one who

truly doesn't identify with the ego, his or her entire being, and every

action, is a pure expression of divine love and self-sacrifice. Divine

love and self-sacrifice cannot be imitated.

 

WIE: Is it possible for a master to completely annihilate their ego?

 

MA: A mahatma [great soul] is one who disidentifies with the ego; they

see everything as an extension of the Self. Due to our ignorance, we

identify with the ego, with that which is not real, but a mahatma is not

identified at all with the ego, with that which is unreal.

 

WIE: How does the guru help to annihilate the ego of the disciple?

 

MA: A true master creates the situations that will allow the seeker to

come out of his or her dream. The disciple wants to continue to sleep

and to dream, but the master wants to awaken him or her. The whole

effort of the master is to somehow bring the disciple back to the

reality of his or her true existence.

 

WIE: It is said that the ego will go to any length to maintain its grip

on the individual, even masquerading as our own spiritual longing. What

are the most important qualities for success in the fight against the

endless tricks of the ego?

 

MA: Performing one's own dharma with utmost shraddha. Shraddha is very

important at the beginning stage on the spiritual path; it is absolutely

essential.

 

WIE: What is shraddha? Is it faith in the possibility of transcending

the ego in this life?

 

MA: Shraddha is more than just faith. It is trust and love. Both trust

and love are necessary to transcend the ego—trust in the existence

of a higher reality, love for that reality and an intense longing to

realize it.

 

WIE: What is the best way to cultivate discrimination in the face of all

the temptations of the ego?

 

MA: Just as a little boy grows out of his teddy bear and other toys, a

true seeker gains the power to discriminate between the eternal and

noneternal as his understanding grows and as he advances along the path.

The power of discrimination dawns within us as we gain proper

understanding and as we mature. As we learn how to evaluate life's

experiences in the proper manner, we automatically begin to use our

discriminative intelligence. It is an inner blossoming that takes

place—like a bud opening up. It is part of a slow but steady

process.

 

There is a divine message hidden behind every experience life brings

you—both the positive and negative experiences. Just penetrate

beneath the surface and you will receive the message. Nothing comes from

outside; everything is within you. The whole universe is within you.

 

There will be many temptations and challenges along the way. Only an

experienced person can help you. The way to moksha is very subtle, and

it is easy for a spiritual aspirant to become deluded.

 

 

 

WIE: What is the role of the spiritual master in guiding the seeker on

the path to moksha or liberation?

 

MA: If you want to learn how to drive, you need to be taught by an

experienced driver. A child needs to be taught how to tie his shoelaces.

And how can you learn mathematics without a teacher? Even a pickpocket

needs a teacher to teach him the art of stealing. If teachers are

indispensable in ordinary life, wouldn't we need a teacher even more on

the spiritual path, which is so extremely subtle?

 

Though that subtle knowledge is our true nature, we have been identified

with the world of names and forms for so long, thinking them to be real.

We now need to cease that identification. But in reality, there is

nothing to teach. A master simply helps you to complete the journey.

 

If you want to go to a distant place, you may want to buy a map. But no

matter how well you study the map, if you are heading toward a totally

strange land, an unknown place, you won't know anything about that place

until you actually arrive. Nor will the map tell you much about the

journey itself, about the ups and downs of the road and the possible

dangers on the way. It is therefore better to receive guidance from

someone who has completed the journey, someone who knows the way from

his or her own experience.

 

On the spiritual journey, we have to really listen to and then

contemplate what the master says. We have to be humble in order to

receive. When we really listen and then sincerely contemplate, we will

assimilate the teachings properly.

 

WIE: Why is submission to a guru said to be so important in helping the

disciple transcend the ego?

 

MA: The seat of the ego is the mind. Any other obstacle can be removed

by using the mind except the ego, because the ego is subtler than the

mind. It is only through obedience to the one who is established in that

supreme experience that one can conquer the ego.

 

WIE: You didn't have an external guru, yet you completely transcended

your ego. It seems you depended on the formless as your guru to take you

all the way.

 

MA: Yes, you could say that. But Amma considered the whole of creation

to be her guru.

 

WIE: Is perfect obedience to the guru ultimately the same as ego death?

 

MA: Yes. That is why the satguru [realized spiritual master] is depicted

in the Kathopanishad as Yama, the lord of death. The death of the

disciple's ego can take place only with the help of a satguru.

 

Obedience isn't something that can be forced on the disciple. The

disciple is tremendously inspired by the master, who is an embodiment of

humility. Obedience and humility simply happen in a true master's

presence.

 

WIE: It takes rare courage to face ego death.

 

MA: Yes, very few can do it. If you have the courage and determination

to knock at the door of death, you will find that there is no death. For

even death, or the death of the ego, is an illusion.

 

WIE: There have been some very powerful spiritual teachers who seem to

have been driven by the impure motives of the ego. Do you think that

spiritual experiences could at times empower the ego rather than destroy

it?

 

MA: Amma doesn't agree that those teachers to whom you are referring are

realized. A Self-realized master is completely independent. Such beings

don't have to depend on anything external for their happiness because

they are full of bliss, which they derive from within their own Atman.

Amma would say that everyone forms part of a crowd, except the realized

masters. In fact, except for those rare souls, there are no individuals.

Only one who is realized is uniquely individual and totally independent

of the crowd. Only such a soul is alone in the world of bliss.

 

True spiritual masters have to set an example through their actions and

their lives. Those who abuse their position and power, taking advantage

of others, obviously do not derive all their happiness and contentment

from within themselves, and so they cannot be realized masters. Why

would a realized master crave adulation or power? Those who do are still

under the grip of the ego. They may claim to be realized, but they are

not. A perfect master doesn't claim anything. He simply is—he is

presence.

 

Until the moment before realization takes place, a person is not safe

from the temptations of his or her desires.

 

WIE: So would you say that people like this have become more proud as a

result of having had spiritual experiences? Can spiritual experiences at

times strengthen the ego in a negative way?

 

MA: The people to whom this happens are deluded, and they confuse others

as well. They will actually push others into delusion. Some people gain

a glimpse of something, or have a spiritual experience, and then think

they have attained moksha. Only someone who is not realized will think,

" I am spiritual, I am realized, " and this will create a strong, subtle

ego. A subtle ego is more dangerous than a gross ego. Even the

individuals themselves won't understand that the subtle ego is leading

or motivating them, and this subtle ego will become part of their

nature. Such people will do anything for name and fame.

 

Amma also feels that this kind of pride makes people lose their capacity

to listen. And listening is extremely important on the spiritual path. A

person who does not listen cannot be humble. And it is only when we are

truly humble that the already existing pure Consciousness will be

unfolded within us. Only one who is humbler than the humblest can be

considered greater than the greatest.

 

 

 

WIE: Since it is possible for spiritual experiences to feed the ego, is

it necessary to cultivate purity first?

 

MA: There is no need to get obsessed with purity. Focus on your dharma,

performing it with the right attitude and with love. Then purity will

follow.

 

WIE: What is dharma, in the way you are using it?

 

MA: Dharma is the right action in the right place at the right time.

 

WIE: How can one know what one's dharma is?

 

MA: By loving life with the right attitude and having the right

understanding, we will know what the right thing to do is. And then, if

we perform our dharma, purity will come.

 

WIE: How do you cultivate that kind of love?

 

MA: Love isn't something that can be cultivated—it's already within

us in all its fullness. Life cannot exist without love; they are

inseparable. Life and love are not two; they are one and the same. A

little bit of the proper channeling of your energies will awaken the

love within you.

 

You need to have a strong intent to reach the goal of liberation; you

need to be focused on that goal. Then such qualities as love, patience,

enthusiasm and optimism will spring forth within you. These qualities

will work to help you attain your goal.

 

WIE: You are revered by so many as the embodiment of unconditional love,

and you literally hug everyone who comes to see you. But I have heard

that you can also be very fierce with your students. How do these two

very different methods of teaching go together?

 

MA: For Amma there are not two different methods; Amma has only one

method, and that is love. That love manifests as patience and

compassion. However, if a deer comes and eats the tender flower buds in

your garden, you cannot be gentle with the deer and say softly, " Please

deer, don't eat the flowers. " You have to shout at it and even wave a

stick. It is sometimes necessary to show this type of mood in order to

correct the disciple. Kali is the compassionate mother in her

disciplining mood. But look into her eyes—there is no anger there.

 

Amma only disciplines those who have chosen to stay close to her, and

she only does this when they are ready to be disciplined. A disciple is

one who is willing to be disciplined. The guru first binds the disciple

with boundless, unconditional love so that when the disciple eventually

is disciplined, he or she is aware of the presence of that love in all

situations.

 

Amma helps her children to always be aware and alert. Love has many

aspects. When Amma disciplines her children, she does this with the sole

purpose of guiding them along the path to help them to fully blossom.

This blossoming will happen only if a conducive atmosphere is created.

It can never be forced. A true master does not force his or her

disciples because pure consciousness cannot force anything. The master

is like space, like the boundless sky, and space cannot hurt you. Only

the ego can force and hurt. Amma will patiently continue to create

opportunities for that inner opening, that blossoming, to take place

within her children.

 

The guru-disciple relationship is the highest. The bond of love between

the guru and shishya [disciple] is so powerful that one may sometimes

feel there is no guru and no shishya—all sense of separation

disappears.

 

WIE: What do you do when the ego takes hold of one of your disciples?

 

MA: Amma lovingly helps her children to realize the danger of being

under the grip of the ego, and she shows them how to get out of it.

 

WIE: Some Western psychotherapists and spiritual teachers believe that

we must develop strong egos before we seek ego transcendence. They say

that most of us have weak or wounded egos as a result of the emotional

and psychological traumas that we have suffered over the course of our

lives, and they advocate various forms of therapy to help us build up

our character, ego and sense of individuality. You had quite a difficult

childhood; you had to bear harsh treatment and even physical abuse, and

yet you transcended your ego completely. Would you agree with these

teachers that in the pursuit of enlightenment, we first need to build up

the ego before we endeavor to transcend it?

 

MA: Most people are deeply wounded within in some way, and those wounds

have been caused by the past. Those wounds usually remain unhealed. They

are wounds not only from this life but from previous lives as well, and

no doctor or psychologist can heal them. A doctor or psychologist can

help people to cope with life to a certain extent, in spite of those

wounds, but they cannot actually heal them. They cannot penetrate deeply

enough into their own minds to remove their own wounds, let alone

penetrate deeply enough into the patient's mind. Only a true master, who

is completely free from any limitations and who is beyond the mind, can

penetrate into a person's mind and treat all those unhealed wounds with

his or her infinite energy. Spiritual life, especially under the

guidance of a satguru, does not weaken the psyche; it strengthens it.

 

The ultimate cause of all emotional wounds is our separation from the

Atman, from our true nature. It may be necessary for a person to go to a

psychologist, and that is fine—but to put spirituality aside in

order to first strengthen the ego is to perpetuate that sense of

separation, and it will only lead to further suffering. What is the use

in thinking, " I will go to the doctor as soon as I feel better " ? To wait

for either the inner or outer circumstances to be " just right " before we

embark on the spiritual journey is like standing on the seashore waiting

for the waves to completely subside before we jump into the ocean. This

will never happen. Every moment of life is so utterly precious, such a

rare opportunity. We should not waste it.