To Stacee

January 2, 2010

Namaste

dear Stacee

I have thought of you off and on all day and wanted to say i am so very

sorry your heart is bruised and the love you once cherished has now

turned to suffering. I don't have any answers and truly have no desire

to say anything that would cause you more sorrow. It sounds like you

have been dealing with this for quite some time now and have not been

able to rise up.

Stacee as one sister to another i could say something that you have

probably said many times to yourself and forgive me but i must say it

for if i did not it would be the " orange poka dotted elephant in the

living room. " Allow me to preach one sermon here: It is not in any

woman's best spiritual or psychological interest to enter a relationship

with a Bramachari, Priest, or Guru that has taken vows of celibacy or

where there is a power differential. To do so is like building a

beautiful home on the side of the mountain that is doomed to have mud

slides every rainy season. One of the lessons i have learned is

whatever kind of boundaries we enter in a relationship determines what

will happen in the relationship. Bad boundaries seem to be fertile

ground for " quick trigger karma. " If the boundaries are not healthy

going in then it is very likely the relationship will fall apart due to

poor boundaries, and being a woman in both Eastern and Western too often

the woman is discounted and regulated as the sterotypical Jezeebel or

the poor little victim, and i would not want any woman to have to

experience that kind of shaming, either internally or externally.

Mistakes happen and the spiritual life is full of tests. Some we pass

and some we fail and lessons are to be gained from those mistakes.

Thank you for having the vulnerability to share your story, for

hopefully it can help others with issues of healthy boundaries, i know

it was hard to peel down to the core issue.

In Ammachi's biography, Swamiji talks about the tendency for us to hear

from Amma what we want to hear. He tells the story of the devotee that

loved bananas. He was meditation near Amma, then he got up and left and

when he returned he approached Swamiji with a banana for Amma and told

Swamiji Amma had transmitted for him to bring her a banana. But Amma

had not asked for a banana but had said, " my darling son " . It turned

out that the devotee loved bananas. Another male devotee was having

significant feelings towards a woman and the devotee heard Amma say,

marry, marry, marry, while in the line to receive Darshan. He thought

Amma was telling him to marry the woman that he had a crush on, where

Amma was in truth saying the name of a woman she was giving Darshan.

The devotee told Swamiji that Amma had told him to get married, but

Swamiji knowing how inconsistent that would be of Amma checked to make

sure and found the discrepancy of the devotee and what Amma has truly

said. The devotee had heard what he wanted to hear. We all do that it

is part of being human. Amma talks about dreams and whether devotees

should believe every dream comes directly from her. She stated

caution and gave an example of a woman that really wanted a baby. She

dreamed that Amma comes to her and said she would have a baby. When

she did not get pregnant she became angry and disillusioned because Amma

had not kept the promise of her dream which had come from her great

desire and projected as Amma. Most of the time whether our eyes are

open or shut the mind is dreaming.

But Stacee i sense you cannot consider any of those possibilities at

this time.

I hope and pray you find the courage and the support to cease

distracting yourself from the pain for once you can allow yourself to

move through it there are likely deeper truths and lessons to be

gleamed. I encourage you to allow yourself to go straight into your

grief. In both light and dark your heart was shattered perhaps now it

is time to allow yourself to embrace it all without all the sideswipes

and distractions the mind puts forth. Let your heart break open

enough to become whole. Just as a suggestion go sit with Babji or

Jesus, drop the squirrel of the mind, just feel the loss, such as it

is, and this too. . .and this too, such as it is. . . .

May you claim true love and healing in this situation. It seems to me

by coming to this forum and denouncing Amma to devotees that are

committed to Her is just another form of setting yourself up for more

rejection and pain. I don't want that for you sister and i trust that

no one else in this forum desires that for you either.

Stacee a few lessons i have learned from my own " full catastrophes of

living " empowerment come in assuming complete responsibility as

quickly as possible in every situation, the miraculous healing of

forgiveness, and the healing is not complete until all is held with

honor for all.

I pray you are able to make the transition from suffering to the

freedom of love flowing in beauty and grace. Truly i am sorry t you

are in pain, may grace embrace and hold you with the love that you are

dear sister.

Aum Amriteswaryai Namaha

In Amma

ordinary sparrow

marci

January 2, 2010

Dear Marci and Stacee...you are beautiful. Marci, your writing is just

so lovely and heart felt, and full of loving wisdom. Surely Amma spoke

thru you. Stacee, i hope you can read this and feel the love we all have

for you as a sister, and the hope that your broken heart will heal. My

heart goes out to anyone with a broken heart. I am all too familiar with

that kind of suffering and pain. Happy New Year All...In Her Service,

mare

On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 08:09:21 -0000 " Ordinary Sparrow "

<ordinarysparrow writes:

> Namaste

>

> dear Stacee

> Stacee as one sister to another i could say something that you have

> probably said many times to yourself and forgive me but i must say

> it

> for if i did not it would be the " orange poka dotted elephant in

> the

> living room. " Allow me to preach one sermon here: It is not in

> any

> woman's best spiritual or psychological interest to enter a

> relationship

> with a Bramachari, Priest, or Guru that has taken vows of celibacy

> or

> where there is a power differential. To do so is like building a

> beautiful home on the side of the mountain that is doomed to have

> mud

> slides every rainy season. One of the lessons i have learned is

> whatever kind of boundaries we enter in a relationship determines

> what

> will happen in the relationship. Bad boundaries seem to be

> fertile

> ground for " quick trigger karma. " If the boundaries are not

> healthy

> going in then it is very likely the relationship will fall apart due

> to

> poor boundaries, and being a woman in both Eastern and Western too

> often

> the woman is discounted and regulated as the sterotypical Jezeebel

> or

> the poor little victim, and i would not want any woman to have to

> experience that kind of shaming, either internally or externally.

> Aum Amriteswaryai Namaha

> In Amma

> ordinary sparrow

> marci

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January 2, 2010

I think what you've written is wise, however, you're COMPLETELY neglecting the

other side. Bramachari's in Amma's org are sometimes mistakenly given the

respect due to Sannyasins. For years I've tried to persuade others away from

this idea, as it leads to all sorts of problems.

While I agree that it wasn't the best decision to go forward with a relationship

with a bramachari, it was bound to happen to someone given the state of things.

The 2 main factors I see leading to the problem were both the mis-direction of

respect and power as mentioned, and the going with " feelings " that many on this

list use for guidance. The same " feelings " that won't let people put any blame

on the bramachari, Amma, the org.

The bramachari in question, according to Stacee, was in the inner circle and

obviously a staff member. That's a power issue. It was the bramachari's

Dharma to never have gotten involved with the lay people, but I feel took

advantage of his position. Just look at the Eli Jaxon-Bear and personal

attendant case. Gangaji and him were reacting spiritually to it until lawyers

got involved and they had to shut up. Inappropriate relations are a power

issue.

Score one for blaming the victim... sermon received quite well.

Ammachi , " Ordinary Sparrow " <ordinarysparrow wrote:

>

> Namaste

>

> dear Stacee

>

> I have thought of you off and on all day and wanted to say i am so very

> sorry your heart is bruised and the love you once cherished has now

> turned to suffering. I don't have any answers and truly have no desire

> to say anything that would cause you more sorrow. It sounds like you

> have been dealing with this for quite some time now and have not been

> able to rise up.

> (snip)

January 2, 2010

The bramachari in question, according to Stacee, was in the inner circle and

obviously a staff member. That's a power issue. It was the bramachari's Dharma

to never have gotten involved with the lay people, but I feel took advantage of

his position. (Well Ammachi really did encourage all of this between us very

clearly, whether she was all soft and fuzzy inside about it and whether she

really wanted to see us succeed is a whole other story, she could have helped us

in many ways and I know she helps some marriages truly work)

Dear, all thank you for your input

I was basically clueless to all of these potential hazards or ideas as power

issues, as I was still very new to the Amma scene, and my friend, Kamal

Bijlani the Bramachari, really encouraged this relationship and was very serious

about taking his time to make a decision. At the time I was very happy and had

all in life going for me. Spiritually I was feeling much peace. He waited

for one whole year before he told me he wanted the relationship. He was very

loving and caring. He had said that over the 12 years he was in service he had

thought of marriage more than once before, so he was really looking at going

back into the world. He asked me many questions about what it was like to be in

the world even though he had lived and studied in the US years earlier. He was

so happy and in love as well. The problems started when he entrusted his

feelings to Big Swami and Swami Ramakrishna, as they judged the situation and

made him feel confused. So the people

in Amma's ashram are indoctrinated to feel they have special lives because they

live and travel with her, that are beyond being an ordinary human being, which

is not true, and will lead to problems which each of these people. If she was

not such a public figure and famous and she chose to keep her teachings and

blessings in India alone, then there would be a much stronger emphases with

humility and would, I feel help many around her understand the meaning of that.

I am studying the writings of various saints from the catholic church who took

these same vows and had to live very private lives like nuns and priests and

they must be very humble. Jesus is teaching through Anne a lay apostle now, that

we are all to renounce worldly things such as watching various movies, TV,

media, radio where there is a real lack of love, silence and understanding. He

does encourage people to marry and have families if they want to take that path,

although he still asks for

the life of a renunciate in many ways even with marriage or being single until

marriage.

January 2, 2010

Namaste Stacee,

did you see my post on relationships youtube videos?

perhaps these will help

the thing is, there are so many problems/challenges in life

and failed relationships are some of the most difficult ones to handle

but there is only one way out

and that is to get over it

without blame, judgments, resentments, etc

we all realize, it's easier said then done,

but all our " preaching " and sharing is coming from heart

read my post " My Failed Relationship "

and what helped me 39 years ago

GOOD LUCK !

Part 2 & 3 are on relationship desires

Obsessive Burning Desires (Part 2) ~ Spoken by Mooji

Obsessive Burning Desires (Part 3)

Obsessive Burning Desires (Part 1) ~ Spoken by Mooji

The Grace of the Guru Crushes Ego ~

Mooji's interesting personal experience

Amma Bless,

amarnath

January 3, 2010

Aum Amriteshwaryai Namah,

Aum Namah Shivaya Stacee,

Anyone who has talked to any of Amma's swamis will immediately notice their

humble nature almost immediately. To say they think they are special and that

" everyone who is with Amma thinks that they are special " is really

disrespectful. Do you really know everyone?

I am Catholic and have met many priests and nuns. Are they all humble?

Absolutely not. In fact, many are incredibly arrogant. Does that mean all of

them are? No. And what of the abuses in the Catholic church of priests abusing

young boys? It's horrific and the church covered it up. Isn't that pretty

horrible? They are not all innocent human beings.

You will find that people are human the world over. All are on their own paths.

It's not our job to question who everyone is, what they are, etc. If you don't

like Amma or have issues, move on. Find your own path that you can follow.

Move on in other words. You don't need to continue to debate your feelings and

issues here if you don't want to be around or with Amma. This is an Amma

DEVOTOTIONAL group. It sounds like you don't like or want to be around Amma.

That is ok and none of us are going to judge you because you don't want to be

with Her. Just find your own thing and do it.

in Her service,

Adriane

Ammachi , Stacee Kramer <stacee.kramer wrote:

>

> The bramachari in question, according to Stacee, was in the inner circle and