Amma smiled at the boy and said in a conspiratorial whisper

[Guest guest]

Amarnath i checked out these links and they are really rich. Once again

thanks. This is a poem by Elaine Maria Uptown that condenses what John

Wheeler is saying, i think.

Silence is not a lack of words. . Silence is not a lack of music. .

Silence is not the lack of curses. . Silence is not the lack of screams.

.. Silence is not the lack of colors, or voices, or bodies, or whistling

wind. . Silence is not the lack of anything. . Silence is resting,

nestling in every leaf of every tree, in every leaf and branch. .

Silence is the flower sprouting upon the branch. . Silence is the

mother singing to her newborn babe. . Silence is the mother crying for

her stillborn babe. . Silence is the life of all, whose breath is a

breath of God. . Silence is seeing and singing praises. . Silence is the

roar of ocean waves. . Silence is the sandpiper dancing on the shore.

Silence is the vastness of the whale. Silence is a blade of grass. .

Silence is love, even the love that hides in hate. . Silence is the

pompous queen and the harlot and the pimp hugging his purse on a crowed

street. . Silence is the healer dreaming the plant, the drummer drumming

the dream. It is the lover's exhasted fall into sleep. It is the call

of the morning birds. . Silence is God's beat tapping all hearts. .

Silence is the star kissing a flower. . Silence is a word, a hope, a

candle lighting the window of home. . Silence is everything --- the

renewing sleep of Earth, the purifying dream of Water, the purifying

rage of Fire, the soaring spiraling flight of Air. . It is all things

dissolved into no-thing Silence is with you always. The presence of I

AM. . Elaine Maria Upton

 

Ammachi , " amarnath " <anatol_zinc wrote:

>

>

> During the retreat Q & A, a 12-year-old boy asked, " Amma, you tell us

that

> we are born again and again as a result of our karma. But what about

the

> very first time we were born? There was no karma then, so why were we

> born? "

>

> Amma smiled at the boy and said in a conspiratorial whisper, " You were

> never born, my son. This is just a dream, a very long dream ... "

> A Critique Of John Wheeler's " You Were Never Born " ~ Dr.

> Vemuri Ramesam

> http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/teachers/wheeler_ramesam.htm

> <http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/teachers/wheeler_ramesam.htm>

> I felt truly humbled and very fulfilled reading John's book, " You

> Were Never Born " (Non-Duality Press, 2007, pp: 260, ISBN:

> 978-0-9553999-2-3).

>

> " You Were Never Born " begins with about 25 pages on the basics

> of John's approach to Advaita philosophy and proceeds to present 77

> dialogues (chiefly e-mail correspondences) with seekers. At the very

end

> is a very candid interview given to a Dzogchen Practitioner. I am

amazed

> at the humility of his stance, clarity in expression and his ability

to

> hold the questioner's feet firmly on the ground while demystifying

> Advaita, but in the same breath conveying, in simple straight forward

> terms, the great Gaudapada's highest philosophy of 'ajativada' (Karika

> III-48). John is not condescending in his responses to the questions

nor

> does he adopt a `holier than thou' attitude. No mumbo jumbo

> either. He exposes in his dialogs a missed dimension in the

> Questioner's perspective and patiently deconstructs our usually

> taken-for-granted worldview. One is reminded of the depth of

Ashtavakra

> Gita (I-12) in his replies.

>

> The dialogs # 52 ( " Objects Appear, But You Exist " ) at p: 145 -

> 148 and # 68 ( " The Simplicity of Presence-Awareness " ) at p: 185

> are key essays and perhaps could have been at the head of the Book.

They

> constitute the heart of the matter.

>

> What To Do:

>

> John doesn't go with the radical positions adopted by some of the

> Non-Dualists who say that there is nothing that can be done, as

> " there is no one to do anything. " He is categorical that he

> would never say that. He questions, " If there is nothing to do to

> end seeking and suffering, why talk about all this? " (P: 97).

> Similar views are repeatedly expressed in the book.

>

> Richard, a pen friend of mine sent the other day a link to Mr. David

> Godman's blog on What To Do?

>

<http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.com/2008/06/yes-but-what-do-i-do.ht\

\

> ml> I quote from the above link:

>

> " When the Guru says, `You are the Self, you are Brahman,'

> the disciple often responds by saying, `Yes, I understand, but what

> do I do to attain it? How do I discover this for myself?'

>

> The asking of such a question means that the disciple thinks that

> Brahman is something he should become, through effort, rather than

> something that he already is. The assumption implicit in this

world-view

> is the premise behind all sadhana. "

>

> To this Ramana Maharshi's response was:

>

> " He who instructs an ardent seeker to do this or that is not a true

> master. The seeker is already afflicted by his activities and wants

> peace and rest. In other words, he wants cessation of his activities.

> Instead of that he is told to do something in addition to, or in place

> of, his other activities. Can that be a help to the seeker?

>

> Activity is creation; activity is the destruction of one's inherent

> happiness. If activity be advocated the adviser is not a master but

the

> killer. Either the Creator (Brahma) or Death (Yama) may be said to

have

> come in the guise of such a master. He cannot liberate the aspirant

but

> strengthens his fetters. (Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, talk no.

> 601.) "

>

> John too does not advocate any `method' as all methods do

> deflect the individual from focusing on that which really makes one

> `aware.' He desists from recommending even reading his books.

> But he also does not leave the seeker in a vacuum while he himself

talks

> from the position of ultimate Oneness. He holds his hand and

> unwearyingly guides him to be `aware' of that very background

> which gives him the undeniable fact of `presence and awareness'

> the twin principles of `existence – knowledge', which the

> Upanishadic teachings point out. He suggests a variety of pointers to

> bring the gaze of the seeker on track from a misfocus on worldliness

or

> a " me " . His standard comment is " You have to be present to

> be `aware.' You have to be aware to be `present'. So the

> `presence-awareness' is undeniable. " What he suggests is to

> continue questioning all that appears as a physical or mental object

> until you are aware of your awareness and nothing else remains with a

> subject-object differentiation. That is same as the Drik

(Potent-Looker)

> state beyond triputi in Vedantic argot.

>

> There is no glorification of advaita or statements misleading the

reader

> with false hopes of redeeming one from worldly problems of hunger,

> penury etc. While physical pain and sorrow are admittedly unavoidable

> in the relative world, 'advaita' can free the individual from

> 'psychological suffering'. `Psychological suffering' for him is

> " emotional turbulence, doubts, worries, fears, concern about

> `myself', what people think of `me', the feeling of

> being a separate individual etc. " (p: 245). The key is about one's

> shifting the focus from a memory-based fictitious `persona' of

> autobiographical 'self' to that very 'awareness' which 'awares' (for

> lack of a better word) within oneself.

>

> John's statements like " I am an advocate of taking appropriate

> relative steps. The same goes with medical issues, job issues and so

> on. " (p: 178) and " Appearances are meaningful at the level at which

> they appear. Engage in them and make use of them at the appropriate

> level. There can still be a relative enjoyment and interest in

> things. " (p: 188) clearly indicate an unambiguous pointer to guide

> us in our daily life at transactional level pertaining to matters in

the

> mundane world. At the same time, his profound words like " At this

point

> you can dispense with making a division between thoughts and

awareness "

> (p: 183) transport the reader (or what remains) to sublime

unseparating

> " Oneness. " The book abounds in many quotable gems, each with its own

> flavor and uniqueness of appeal to individual spiritual aspirants.

>

> Snake – Rope Classic Advaita Metaphor:

>

> " From ignorance of oneself, the world appears, and by knowledge of

> oneself it appears no longer. From ignorance of the rope a snake

> appears, and by knowledge of the rope the snake appears no longer " ,

> says Ashtavakra Gita (II-7) using the classic and well-known snake

> metaphor to denote the apparent world. Aparokshanubhuti (Verse 96) too

> holds that " the substratum being known, the phenomenal world

> disappears completely. " However, John is more realistic. He thinks

> that the metaphor of a mirage, which continues to appear even after it

> is known that it doesn't contain any water, more appropriately

> describes the position of a Jivanmukta (vide his e-mail of April 8,

2008

> to me). He explains adding, " As long as there are sense organs,

> mind, consciousness, etc., in working order, the appearance will be

> there. The whole purpose of questioning the reality of the appearance

is

> to dismantle the fixation on it and identification with it, not to

deny

> that sheer fact that an appearance happens. "

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have looked at various theories but this is the only thing that makes

sense to me- that life is a dream. However this can cause us to be life

negating - but Hindus have a beautiful word to describe this - " leela " - a

divine play - which probably doesn't have an equivalent word in other

languages. So I think I should continue what I'm doing in this " leela " and

continuously remind myself of this fact.

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Ravi Chivukula

 

_____

 

Ammachi [Ammachi ] On Behalf Of

amarnath

Monday, September 01, 2008 7:02 AM

Ammachi

Amma smiled at the boy and said in a conspiratorial

whisper

 

 

 

 

During the retreat Q & A, a 12-year-old boy asked, " Amma, you tell us that

we are born again and again as a result of our karma. But what about the

very first time we were born? There was no karma then, so why were we

born? "

 

Amma smiled at the boy and said in a conspiratorial whisper, " You were

never born, my son. This is just a dream, a very long dream ... "

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

very nice, thanks for posting these gems

 

Ammachi , " marci " <Mmrivertalk wrote:

>

>

> Amarnath i checked out these links and they are really rich. Once

again

> thanks. This is a poem by Elaine Maria Uptown that condenses what

John

> Wheeler is saying, i think.

> Silence is not a lack of words. . Silence is not a lack of music. .

> Silence is not the lack of curses. . Silence is not the lack of

screams.

> . Silence is not the lack of colors, or voices, or bodies, or

whistling

> wind. . Silence is not the lack of anything. . Silence is resting,

> nestling in every leaf of every tree, in every leaf and branch. .

> Silence is the flower sprouting upon the branch. . Silence is the

> mother singing to her newborn babe. . Silence is the mother crying for

> her stillborn babe. . Silence is the life of all, whose breath is a

> breath of God. . Silence is seeing and singing praises. . Silence is

the

> roar of ocean waves. . Silence is the sandpiper dancing on the shore.

> Silence is the vastness of the whale. Silence is a blade of grass. .

> Silence is love, even the love that hides in hate. . Silence is the

> pompous queen and the harlot and the pimp hugging his purse on a

crowed

> street. . Silence is the healer dreaming the plant, the drummer

drumming

> the dream. It is the lover's exhasted fall into sleep. It is the call

> of the morning birds. . Silence is God's beat tapping all hearts. .

> Silence is the star kissing a flower. . Silence is a word, a hope, a

> candle lighting the window of home. . Silence is everything --- the

> renewing sleep of Earth, the purifying dream of Water, the purifying

> rage of Fire, the soaring spiraling flight of Air. . It is all things

> dissolved into no-thing Silence is with you always. The presence of I

> AM. . Elaine Maria Upton

>