Guest guest Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Wow! too many posts on this thread. some are angry too. I can't respond to them all, so will try to consolidate it here. First off, thanks to the post-er for the correction on the phrase/term. my bad, I have reasons for using it the way I did, but they are mine and private, and definitely no excuses for bad grammar. But I do disagree with the " banter " description. if you still think so, ignore this thread and chant your mantra! Mary Ann: Once again, we seem to be talking of different types of people. I am not sure what you mean by " surrendered " to Amma. Let me explain .... of the millions who go to Amma, by my rigorous standards, less than 1% are TRULY surrendered to Amma. The rest (me included) are just going to Amma because it suits a range of reasons from our current prarabhdha orientation, to an extremely aware love and devotion to Amma but with a subtle retention of our individual personality. That would be an external surrender (the rest), and an internal surrender (1%). Most of the folks who are internally surrendered are usually externally close to Amma (mind you, this is entirely different than saying " most of the folks physically closest around Amma are internally surrendered " ), because they don't find any other place to be good enough on earth. But there could be exceptions. In my mind, the internally surrendered folks are like WARRIOR disciples. Their self-discipline is so high that they don't need extra assurances of Amma's love and help. They need the barest minimum as they have a well-lit fire inside them already cooking them up. Consider the hard knocks to be the spiritual equivalent of the surgery of the removal of cancerous deep-rooted tumor. Removal of " karmic tumor " . Call it " cruel love " if you will. nice oxymoron, that. This would very well be the last of the stuff to go through. That treatment is some of the last and usually reserved for folks who are on the way to advaita (intentionally or otherwise, definitely not just intellectually). people on dvaita (intentionally or otherwise) rarely get that treatment. Amma does, I believe and see, have a whole lot of different treatments for the various other types of non-warrior disciples/devotees. Jai Ma! P.S.: BTW, all these terms are definitions are entirely my creation and I do not mean to attribute them to MA Center or Amma's org as they have not graded anyone's attainments explicitly. . Ammachi , " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61 wrote: > > Hi, > > One of my concerns is whether people claim that life's " hard rocks " or > knocks are created by Amma as our lessons. For example, if someone who > trusts in Amma suffered major losses in the tsunami in Indonesia, > would you or Amma devotees claim that Amma put them through " hard > rocks " by creating the tsunami, or that Amma's love and compassion can > help keep them on track through difficult times that life brings? > > When someone doesn't understand something, creating the bridge to > understanding may take more subtlety than shaking that person, which > can damage them further, not shake sense into them. This approach of > harshness is a very old and traditional one, and one I consider Amma's > teachings to be counter-balancing. > > > Ammachi , " manoj_menon " <manoj_menon@> wrote: > > > > " hard rocks " is for people who have surrendered to Her and are > > asking their heads to be cut off. They do not need the safety net > > anymore, they are in a hurry to be cooked and eaten up. > > > > since we are using quotes so much, let me also add: > > " sweet talk " is for people to accept and trust Her so that she can > > then begin the " hard " treatment after they trust Her. For that to > > begin, she can do that for years on end (same thing as you said: > > waiting for the bud to open). > > > > Is your concern mainly that the language is not clearly expressing > > the idea? > > > > Jai Ma! > > > > Ammachi , " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61@> > > wrote: > > > > > > I have not spent so much time around Amma as to experience > > her " hard rocks, " thankfully. > > > I know that such treatment would not actually help me learn. If > > you have read any books > > > on how children learn, they need to feel safe with others, and in > > their environments. Such > > > safety is NOT something we all are fortunate enough to grow up > > with, and instead we > > > become conditioned to shutting down rather than taking in. Until > > that safety is established > > > and the child/adult can begin to relax and experience the parent > > as genuinely loving, > > > deeper learning cannot take place. Without this bridge, " hard > > rocks " are just more abuse. > > > To automatically assume " hard rocks " are a better way to convey > > lessons, or that those > > > who need gentleness " can't take it " is misguided. (How is Amma's > > message of love and > > > compassion something someone cannot take?) > > > > > > Amma waits patiently outside the door, she does not push the door > > open; life does not > > > force a bud to open. > > > > > > Ammachi , " manoj_menon " <manoj_menon@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ammachi , " tom " <tomgull@> wrote: > > > > > She doesn't preach to those who don't want to be preached to, > > > > > generally speaking, because they can't take it. > > > > > > > > This one statement is key to understanding how Amma works with > > us all. > > > > > > > > She does not care to waste her physical time and energies on > > people > > > > who have not completely surrendered to Her. She accepts their > > right to > > > > not surrender to Her and lets them be, and will even talk to > > them very > > > > sweetly and lovingly at darshan time or otherwise, but they do > > not get > > > > the " hard rocks " treatment from Her that will speed up the > > progress. > > > > > > > > Amazingly, even the sweet talk has its way of working into us > > and help > > > > us transform gradually if we just give it " time " (sometimes > > years), > > > > viz., be open to the experience. > > > > > > > > Jai Ma! > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Ammachi , " manoj_menon " <manoj_menon wrote: > > Wow! too many posts on this thread. some are angry too. >>>>>>> Mary Ann: > > Once again, we seem to be talking of different types of people. > > I am not sure what you mean by " surrendered " to Amma. > > Let me explain .... of the millions who go to Amma, by my rigorous > standards, less than 1% are TRULY surrendered to Amma. The rest (me > included) are just going to Amma because it suits a range of reasons > from our current prarabhdha orientation, to an extremely aware love > and devotion to Amma but with a subtle retention of our individual > personality. > .................... > In my mind, the internally surrendered folks are like WARRIOR > disciples. Their self-discipline is so high that they don't need extra > assurances of Amma's love and help. They need the barest minimum as > they have a well-lit fire inside them already cooking them up. > > Consider the hard knocks to be the spiritual equivalent of the surgery > of the removal of cancerous deep-rooted tumor. Removal of " karmic > tumor " . Call it " cruel love " if you will. nice oxymoron, that. This > would very well be the last of the stuff to go through. > > That treatment is some of the last and usually reserved for folks who > are on the way to advaita (intentionally or otherwise, definitely not > just intellectually). people on dvaita (intentionally or otherwise) > rarely get that treatment. > > Amma does, I believe and see, have a whole lot of different treatments > for the various other types of non-warrior disciples/devotees. > > Jai Ma! > OM Amrtesvaryai Namah!! Namaskarams all! from my understanding (limited i agree), the so called " hard knocks " or " rocks " that come our way are well deserved Karmic paybacks for our own misdeeds at some point or other in some life or other...these will come at the appropriate planetary transits and dashas, " Karmas " as Tom (and Jyotish) would suggest.... what Manoj is referring to is NOT some NEW karmic payback knocks that Amma graciously bestows upon us to test us...but as the Prarabdha karmas are SPED UP by the Guru's Presence in own's own life...then depending upon how " close " or " surrendered " we are to GURU (AMMA), the the stream of those karmic paybacks may be increased in velocity to just at the level that the student can bear...so that s/he may have the opportunity to burn up all those karmic debts in THIS life, when s/he is UNDER GURU'S protection, getting to meet Amma occasionally, or often... this doesn't mean that Her " Warrior " devotees are given special knocks to toughen them up...but merely their own leftover karmas come at them more often. Often Mother even softens the blows of the karmas somewhat if She can, but if it's something you gotta go through, She'll let you experience the whole hellish nature of the payback...eg. Sw. Paramatmanda and his back and migraine pains....Mother told him that She could take away these pains in this life, but that he would have to go through them in a future life then...so although painful, he was " happy " to be allowed to go through these very painful karmas NOW... the trick in my mind is to AVOID making even MORE negative karmas for ourselves while burning off the old baddies....with our negative attitudes, and behaviours...for example trying to offset our Migraine or chronic pain karmas by incurring those of drug dependency or addiction, and thus creating an whole new kettle of " karma fish " which has to be " boiled " and consumed..... so in my mind it is more a matter of perception that the hard knocks have suddenly arrived once we meet Amma.....it's only that She has speeded up the STREAM of them...so that now we notice them more. the " surrendered " ones realise that " the sooner burnt, the sooner done " and thus do not necessarily pursue any Jyotish remedies for their planetary afflictions and transits, because they want to move as quickly as possible through all these karmas...they will have the attitude of " Not mine, but Thy Will be done, O Mother! " . in Her Divine Love, and in Her Service, as ever, your own Self, visvanathan Om Amrtesvaryai Namah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 V, there's no way to say this in a nice way, but your entire posting is fluffy B.S. I won't waste my time tearing it to shreds, as it easy it would be to do. tom Ammachi , " visvanathan " <kasi_visvanath wrote: > > Namaskarams all! > > from my understanding (limited i agree), the so called " hard knocks " > or " rocks " that come our way are well deserved Karmic paybacks for our > own misdeeds at some point or other in some life or other...these will > come at the appropriate planetary transits and dashas, " Karmas " as Tom > (and Jyotish) would suggest.... (snipped) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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