Guest guest Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 I have not spent so much time around Amma as to experience her " hard rocks, " thankfully. I know that such treatment would not actually help me learn. If you have read any books on how children learn, they need to feel safe with others, and in their environments. Such safety is NOT something we all are fortunate enough to grow up with, and instead we become conditioned to shutting down rather than taking in. Until that safety is established and the child/adult can begin to relax and experience the parent as genuinely loving, deeper learning cannot take place. Without this bridge, " hard rocks " are just more abuse. To automatically assume " hard rocks " are a better way to convey lessons, or that those who need gentleness " can't take it " is misguided. (How is Amma's message of love and compassion something someone cannot take?) Amma waits patiently outside the door, she does not push the door open; life does not force a bud to open. Ammachi , " manoj_menon " <manoj_menon wrote: > > Ammachi , " tom " <tomgull@> wrote: > > She doesn't preach to those who don't want to be preached to, > > generally speaking, because they can't take it. > > This one statement is key to understanding how Amma works with us all. > > She does not care to waste her physical time and energies on people > who have not completely surrendered to Her. She accepts their right to > not surrender to Her and lets them be, and will even talk to them very > sweetly and lovingly at darshan time or otherwise, but they do not get > the " hard rocks " treatment from Her that will speed up the progress. > > Amazingly, even the sweet talk has its way of working into us and help > us transform gradually if we just give it " time " (sometimes years), > viz., be open to the experience. > > Jai Ma! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Ammachi , " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61 wrote: > > I have not spent so much time around Amma as to experience her " hard rocks, " thankfully. > I know that such treatment would not actually help me learn. If you have read any books > on how children learn, they need to feel safe with others, and in their environments. Such > safety is NOT something we all are fortunate enough to grow up with, and instead we > become conditioned to shutting down rather than taking in. Until that safety is established > and the child/adult can begin to relax and experience the parent as genuinely loving, > deeper learning cannot take place. Without this bridge, " hard rocks " are just more abuse. > To automatically assume " hard rocks " are a better way to convey lessons, or that those > who need gentleness " can't take it " is misguided. (How is Amma's message of love and > compassion something someone cannot take?) > > Amma waits patiently outside the door, she does not push the door open; life does not > force a bud to open. > OM Amrtesvaryai Namah!! Namaskarams!! thank you dear sister for your beautiful insight and loving words above...i was going to cut and snip some of it out to make it shorter.....but i couldn't find anywhere where the message could be removed....you have described above directly how i myself feel about these issues....looking at myself, and at the folks with disabilities that i work with, i see that patience and loving compassionate care will always do an Hundred percent more improvements in relations and attitudes than the " hard rocks " approach. every one of Mother's children is somewhat different with all the different vasanas.....we are all Mother's flowers, some of us pink, or orange, or blue, large, and small, sweet smelling and not so sweet smelling...but Mother loves us ALL, just as we are, and accepts us AS we are, and works with what She Has in us, to help us all grow to be Her adorable children...sometimes the hard knocks and rocks appear in our lives, and tend to more often once we meet Ammachi, as being in Her presence seems to speed up the burning up of old karmas....and this is right and good....we have only to recognize this as Amma's Grace, and remember as Brother Achalananda once told me many years ago at an SRF public program, that whatever comes our way, we either need this or we deserve it....that was his way of seeing life.... i don't think we need to or should spend any time thinking ill of any other folks, whether they are drug users, even abusers, or alcoholics, or people with mental and physical disabilities, or mental illness...instead we should remember that it could easily be WE who are in that life situation....easily...from one flick of the eyelash to the next....just like Baba Ram Dass, a few years ago, when Neem Karoli Baba, his Guru of many years (and probly lifetimes) " stroked him " with His Divine Grace, reducing an active older man from constant out ward activities to a braindamaged cripple, a major stroke survivor, wheel chair bound, paralysed and in great pain... YET Ram Dass, speaks of this affliction as the greatest gift of Grace that his Guru ever bestowed upon him....it all depends upon how you see it....the attitude, the Bhava, is the key. As Amma said in Australia recently, when the man asked Her how He could be sure that God exists: " Son, open your heart and love like a Child. Then you will know God " . in Amma's Divine Love, and in Her Service, as ever, your own self, visvanathan Om Amrtesvaryai Namah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Nobody enjoys the hard rocks treatment but i have to disagree with the below. Amma doesn't apply these hard experiences except to push us to needed changes which otherwise are resisted with might and main. She isn't forcing the bud to open, but busting a dead weight off the plant so it can flower. And she knows what she is doing, and when not to... She is of course compassionate but also teaches tyaga/renunciation. I see this as leading to that. Max >I know that such treatment would not actually help me learn. If you >have read any books >on how children learn, they need to feel safe with others, and in >their environments. Such >safety is NOT something we all are fortunate enough to grow up with, >and instead we >become conditioned to shutting down rather than taking in. Until >that safety is established >and the child/adult can begin to relax and experience the parent as >genuinely loving, >deeper learning cannot take place. Without this bridge, " hard rocks " >are just more abuse. >To automatically assume " hard rocks " are a better way to convey >lessons, or that those >who need gentleness " can't take it " is misguided. (How is Amma's >message of love and >compassion something someone cannot take?) > >Amma waits patiently outside the door, she does not push the door >open; life does not >force a bud to open. -- Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives http://www.suppressedhistories.net New: Women's Power DVD http://www.suppressedhistories.net/womenspowerdvd.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Well, I was talking about people in general in response to someone's post about hard rocks, and the comment that some people are not open and never will be, something like that. I guess utilizing/revealing my own life experience, self-knowledge, and awareness of process subjects me to what are " hard rocks " for me, such as someone disagreeing with my understanding of simply being, which is how I read your post. Did you post out of feeling protective of Amma's methods in response to what I wrote? Ammachi , Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: > > Nobody enjoys the hard rocks treatment but i have to disagree with the below. > > Amma doesn't apply these hard experiences except to push us to needed > changes which otherwise are resisted with might and main. She isn't > forcing the bud to open, but busting a dead weight off the plant so > it can flower. And she knows what she is doing, and when not to... > She is of course compassionate but also teaches tyaga/renunciation. I > see this as leading to that. > > Max > > >I know that such treatment would not actually help me learn. If you > >have read any books > >on how children learn, they need to feel safe with others, and in > >their environments. Such > >safety is NOT something we all are fortunate enough to grow up with, > >and instead we > >become conditioned to shutting down rather than taking in. Until > >that safety is established > >and the child/adult can begin to relax and experience the parent as > >genuinely loving, > >deeper learning cannot take place. Without this bridge, " hard rocks " > >are just more abuse. > >To automatically assume " hard rocks " are a better way to convey > >lessons, or that those > >who need gentleness " can't take it " is misguided. (How is Amma's > >message of love and > >compassion something someone cannot take?) > > > >Amma waits patiently outside the door, she does not push the door > >open; life does not > >force a bud to open. > > -- > Max Dashu > Suppressed Histories Archives > http://www.suppressedhistories.net > > New: Women's Power DVD > http://www.suppressedhistories.net/womenspowerdvd.html > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 " hard rocks " is for people who have surrendered to Her and are asking their heads to be cut off. They do not need the safety net anymore, they are in a hurry to be cooked and eaten up. since we are using quotes so much, let me also add: " sweet talk " is for people to accept and trust Her so that she can then begin the " hard " treatment after they trust Her. For that to begin, she can do that for years on end (same thing as you said: waiting for the bud to open). Is your concern mainly that the language is not clearly expressing the idea? Jai Ma! Ammachi , " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61 wrote: > > I have not spent so much time around Amma as to experience her " hard rocks, " thankfully. > I know that such treatment would not actually help me learn. If you have read any books > on how children learn, they need to feel safe with others, and in their environments. Such > safety is NOT something we all are fortunate enough to grow up with, and instead we > become conditioned to shutting down rather than taking in. Until that safety is established > and the child/adult can begin to relax and experience the parent as genuinely loving, > deeper learning cannot take place. Without this bridge, " hard rocks " are just more abuse. > To automatically assume " hard rocks " are a better way to convey lessons, or that those > who need gentleness " can't take it " is misguided. (How is Amma's message of love and > compassion something someone cannot take?) > > Amma waits patiently outside the door, she does not push the door open; life does not > force a bud to open. > > Ammachi , " manoj_menon " <manoj_menon@> wrote: > > > > Ammachi , " tom " <tomgull@> wrote: > > > She doesn't preach to those who don't want to be preached to, > > > generally speaking, because they can't take it. > > > > This one statement is key to understanding how Amma works with us all. > > > > She does not care to waste her physical time and energies on people > > who have not completely surrendered to Her. She accepts their right to > > not surrender to Her and lets them be, and will even talk to them very > > sweetly and lovingly at darshan time or otherwise, but they do not get > > the " hard rocks " treatment from Her that will speed up the progress. > > > > Amazingly, even the sweet talk has its way of working into us and help > > us transform gradually if we just give it " time " (sometimes years), > > viz., be open to the experience. > > > > Jai Ma! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 I guess if safety is the person's paramount concern, then Amma is not going to push them in that way. I posted not out of feeling protective but based on my own experience of hard rocks, of which there have been plenty. I thought it might be helpful to others... Max >Well, I was talking about people in general in response to someone's >post about hard rocks, and the comment that some people are not open >and never will be, something like that. I guess utilizing/revealing my >own life experience, self-knowledge, and awareness of process subjects >me to what are " hard rocks " for me, such as someone disagreeing with >my understanding of simply being, which is how I read your post. Did >you post out of feeling protective of Amma's methods in response to >what I wrote? > ><Ammachi%40>Ammachi , >Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: >> >> Nobody enjoys the hard rocks treatment but i have to disagree with >the below. >> >> Amma doesn't apply these hard experiences except to push us to needed >> changes which otherwise are resisted with might and main. She isn't >> forcing the bud to open, but busting a dead weight off the plant so >> it can flower. And she knows what she is doing, and when not to... >> She is of course compassionate but also teaches tyaga/renunciation. I >> see this as leading to that. >> >> Max >> >> >I know that such treatment would not actually help me learn. If you >> >have read any books >> >on how children learn, they need to feel safe with others, and in >> >their environments. Such >> >safety is NOT something we all are fortunate enough to grow up with, >> >and instead we >> >become conditioned to shutting down rather than taking in. Until >> >that safety is established >> >and the child/adult can begin to relax and experience the parent as >> >genuinely loving, >> >deeper learning cannot take place. Without this bridge, " hard rocks " >> >are just more abuse. >> >To automatically assume " hard rocks " are a better way to convey >> >lessons, or that those >> >who need gentleness " can't take it " is misguided. (How is Amma's >> >message of love and >> >compassion something someone cannot take?) >> > >> >Amma waits patiently outside the door, she does not push the door >> >open; life does not >> >force a bud to open. >> >> -- >> Max Dashu >> Suppressed Histories Archives >> <http://www.suppressedhistories.net>http://www.suppressedhistories.net >> >> New: Women's Power DVD >> >><http://www.suppressedhistories.net/womenspowerdvd.html>http://www.suppressedh\ istories.net/womenspowerdvd.html >> > > -- Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives http://www.suppressedhistories.net New: Women's Power DVD http://www.suppressedhistories.net/womenspowerdvd.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Hi, One of my concerns is whether people claim that life's " hard rocks " or knocks are created by Amma as our lessons. For example, if someone who trusts in Amma suffered major losses in the tsunami in Indonesia, would you or Amma devotees claim that Amma put them through " hard rocks " by creating the tsunami, or that Amma's love and compassion can help keep them on track through difficult times that life brings? When someone doesn't understand something, creating the bridge to understanding may take more subtlety than shaking that person, which can damage them further, not shake sense into them. This approach of harshness is a very old and traditional one, and one I consider Amma's teachings to be counter-balancing. Ammachi , " manoj_menon " <manoj_menon wrote: > > " hard rocks " is for people who have surrendered to Her and are > asking their heads to be cut off. They do not need the safety net > anymore, they are in a hurry to be cooked and eaten up. > > since we are using quotes so much, let me also add: > " sweet talk " is for people to accept and trust Her so that she can > then begin the " hard " treatment after they trust Her. For that to > begin, she can do that for years on end (same thing as you said: > waiting for the bud to open). > > Is your concern mainly that the language is not clearly expressing > the idea? > > Jai Ma! > > Ammachi , " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61@> > wrote: > > > > I have not spent so much time around Amma as to experience > her " hard rocks, " thankfully. > > I know that such treatment would not actually help me learn. If > you have read any books > > on how children learn, they need to feel safe with others, and in > their environments. Such > > safety is NOT something we all are fortunate enough to grow up > with, and instead we > > become conditioned to shutting down rather than taking in. Until > that safety is established > > and the child/adult can begin to relax and experience the parent > as genuinely loving, > > deeper learning cannot take place. Without this bridge, " hard > rocks " are just more abuse. > > To automatically assume " hard rocks " are a better way to convey > lessons, or that those > > who need gentleness " can't take it " is misguided. (How is Amma's > message of love and > > compassion something someone cannot take?) > > > > Amma waits patiently outside the door, she does not push the door > open; life does not > > force a bud to open. > > > > Ammachi , " manoj_menon " <manoj_menon@> wrote: > > > > > > Ammachi , " tom " <tomgull@> wrote: > > > > She doesn't preach to those who don't want to be preached to, > > > > generally speaking, because they can't take it. > > > > > > This one statement is key to understanding how Amma works with > us all. > > > > > > She does not care to waste her physical time and energies on > people > > > who have not completely surrendered to Her. She accepts their > right to > > > not surrender to Her and lets them be, and will even talk to > them very > > > sweetly and lovingly at darshan time or otherwise, but they do > not get > > > the " hard rocks " treatment from Her that will speed up the > progress. > > > > > > Amazingly, even the sweet talk has its way of working into us > and help > > > us transform gradually if we just give it " time " (sometimes > years), > > > viz., be open to the experience. > > > > > > Jai Ma! > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 I have to disagree. My original comment about sweet talk was about her teachings, not experiences. Suffering falls into 2 kinds, preventable (within reason) and non-preventable. Hard-headed people will make their own path full of suffering for themselves and others. This is separate from karma (experiences). Having been around for years, I've yet to see those drawn to sweet-talk actually move towards the more preachy directives. An egoistic person will insist on following their own guidance, and so she lets them. Practicing love and compassion by no means falls under anything " but " sweet talk, the easy teachings. Any progress from the easier teachings pales in comparison to the more focused ones. tom Ammachi , " manoj_menon " <manoj_menon wrote: > > " hard rocks " is for people who have surrendered to Her and are > asking their heads to be cut off. They do not need the safety net > anymore, they are in a hurry to be cooked and eaten up. > > since we are using quotes so much, let me also add: > " sweet talk " is for people to accept and trust Her so that she can > then begin the " hard " treatment after they trust Her. For that to > begin, she can do that for years on end (same thing as you said: > waiting for the bud to open). > > Is your concern mainly that the language is not clearly expressing > the idea? > > Jai Ma! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 >if someone who trusts in Amma suffered major losses in the tsunami >in Indonesia, >would you or Amma devotees claim that Amma put them through " hard >rocks " by creating the tsunami No. Those are mass events, and i don't pretend to understand the whys of their happening to people, any more than the Shoah or witch burnings or slave trade. Clearly not explainable by any formula. > or that Amma's love and compassion can >help keep them on track through difficult times that life brings? Yes, if they are tuned to that with faith. >When someone doesn't understand something, creating the bridge to >understanding may take more subtlety than shaking that person, which >can damage them further, not shake sense into them. It may well be more subtle, since i don't believe hard rocks is the only way Amma works. Maybe i differ in believing that Amma is not going to do something that will " damage someone further, " that she works on subtle levels and on mountain-moving ones too. I don't claim to understand what she is doing half the time. The hard rocks explanation is a way of making difficulty work for me, instead of feeling hopeless and bitter about painful stuff that happens. I can't prove a thing, this is however how i choose to handle it. Amma has proved it however, look how she prevailed over massive difficulties and mistreatment. Max -- Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives http://www.suppressedhistories.net New: Women's Power DVD http://www.suppressedhistories.net/womenspowerdvd.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Ammachi , Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: .... > The hard rocks explanation is a way of making difficulty work for me, > instead of feeling hopeless and bitter about painful stuff that > happens. I can't prove a thing, this is however how i choose to > handle it. Amma has proved it however, look how she prevailed over > massive difficulties and mistreatment. Thanks for the clarifications. Yes, Amma's own life is a message to us all. I experience Amma as a beacon, a lighthouse when the seas are rough. I liked what Tom wrote about preventable and non-preventable events. I question my ego regarding the troubles I encounter in my life. Lately I just try to remember that Jesus lived his philosophy, and so did Gandhi, and so, adversity does not mean one is an ego-maniac. It's just that Amma says be aware of who you're talking to and what you're saying, and I have a tendency to want others to be on the wavelength of love and compassion, so I speak freely, or reach out openly, living to regret it soon after. Right now, this is happening for me in employment. I work in the legal field. Gandhi, after all, was an attorney, but I have yet to meet an attorney like him in any law office in which I have worked thus far. I'm open to the possibility though. Mary Ann BTW I know I've plugged my music before, but anyone who wants to can listen to a couple of my songs on my website at http://www.mememeproductions.net. If you go to the Evicted page, you will see a quote of Amma's, and if you click for the lyrics, you can click again to hear the song. This song is not yet available for sale. You can also, on the Rosie page, listen to the song Blowing Away by clicking on the song title. Blowing Away is available on iTunes, along with some other songs. I hope this isn't too hard-sell! It's just that my employment woes, I think, may be a result of my need to put music first, so I'm trying to figure out how to do that in a world where a song that took a lifetime to live through and then create costs .99! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Interesting to see this topic pop up again. Thanks for the further clarification. This is again leading me to share my approach to Amma, and/or what I get from Amma that is meaningful to / for me. What I take from Amma is the sense that I am being asked to learn to determine matters as I go through life, rather than to have someone, whether Amma, or parents, or anyone else, be the authority that I resist or follow. I consider that I am being encouraged to allow my small self's hand to reach out to the hand of the Self in me and go from there. This is why I am appreciative of the work of Dr. Dan Siegel who co-wrote Parenting from the Inside Out. Dr. Siegel's brain research shows that brain waves in healthy attachment between parent and child flow in the same patterns as brain waves generated by meditation. These waves correspond with more equilibrium in the person, more resilience, and optimism. His idea of what to call the bringing about of this healthy connection between self and Self (how I see it) he called developing mindfulness. Someone pointed out the similarity between the Buddhist teachings and meditation practice of mindfulness to Siegel's work, and now, unfortunately (in my opinion), those two have united in Siegel's own thinking, it seems. I actually prefer to keep the Buddhist teachings/practices and the thousands of years behind them apart from new discoveries via science because humanity, and where parenting is concerned, because I consider that we are now developing emotionally beyond where were as a species when Buddhists started teaching mindfulness. To me Amma is providing the missing piece(s) I need so that the Self is not a harsh authoritarian, but someone I can reach out to when I feel small, someone capable of reaching out in compassion when I act small, and also, someone in me who is the Self, whom I can embrace/allow to embrace me. Now I am certain if others have responses to all of this, I might feel a bit of knocking and pinging But this is just where I am coming from on my journey in life, and with Amma. I welcome others' sharing, and hope that my offering is not felt as my treading on anyone else's very special view of, or relationship to or with Amma, or spirituality in general. If I feel knocking and pinging inside, I will practice courage to be with those feelings Ammachi , Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: > > I guess if safety is the person's paramount concern, then Amma is not > going to push them in that way. > > I posted not out of feeling protective but based on my own experience > of hard rocks, of which there have been plenty. I thought it might be > helpful to others... > > Max > > >Well, I was talking about people in general in response to someone's > >post about hard rocks, and the comment that some people are not open > >and never will be, something like that. I guess utilizing/revealing my > >own life experience, self-knowledge, and awareness of process subjects > >me to what are " hard rocks " for me, such as someone disagreeing with > >my understanding of simply being, which is how I read your post. Did > >you post out of feeling protective of Amma's methods in response to > >what I wrote? > > > ><Ammachi%40>Ammachi , > >Max Dashu <maxdashu@> wrote: > >> > >> Nobody enjoys the hard rocks treatment but i have to disagree with > >the below. > >> > >> Amma doesn't apply these hard experiences except to push us to needed > >> changes which otherwise are resisted with might and main. She isn't > >> forcing the bud to open, but busting a dead weight off the plant so > >> it can flower. And she knows what she is doing, and when not to... > >> She is of course compassionate but also teaches tyaga/renunciation. I > >> see this as leading to that. > >> > >> Max > >> > >> >I know that such treatment would not actually help me learn. If you > >> >have read any books > >> >on how children learn, they need to feel safe with others, and in > >> >their environments. Such > >> >safety is NOT something we all are fortunate enough to grow up with, > >> >and instead we > >> >become conditioned to shutting down rather than taking in. Until > >> >that safety is established > >> >and the child/adult can begin to relax and experience the parent as > >> >genuinely loving, > >> >deeper learning cannot take place. Without this bridge, " hard rocks " > >> >are just more abuse. > >> >To automatically assume " hard rocks " are a better way to convey > >> >lessons, or that those > >> >who need gentleness " can't take it " is misguided. (How is Amma's > >> >message of love and > >> >compassion something someone cannot take?) > >> > > >> >Amma waits patiently outside the door, she does not push the door > >> >open; life does not > >> >force a bud to open. > >> > >> -- > >> Max Dashu > >> Suppressed Histories Archives > >> <http://www.suppressedhistories.net>http://www.suppressedhistories.net > >> > >> New: Women's Power DVD > >> > >><http://www.suppressedhistories.net/womenspowerdvd.html>http://www.suppressedh\ istories.net/womenspowerdvd.html > >> > > > > > > > -- > Max Dashu > Suppressed Histories Archives > http://www.suppressedhistories.net > > New: Women's Power DVD > http://www.suppressedhistories.net/womenspowerdvd.html > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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