Guest guest Posted July 30, 2007 Report Share Posted July 30, 2007 Om Amrtesvaryai Namah! Namaskarams to Avram and to ALL my brothers and sisters! i trust and pray that Amma is blessing you and protecting you all! i received a letter from Avram the other day, and after writing him a response, and because he had expressed similar feeling on this list, i thought i would post my reply to him on the list for everyone. i hope you all enjoy...again just use what you like and throw away the rest! Namaskarams dear Avram! i will respond to your letter to me at the appropriate breaks in your sentences, signalling my entry with " .... " and yours with " >>><<< " you said:>>>HI V. I got back from Ammaland last week. A lot goes down in such time. The inevitable fall of consciousness.<<< .....you said: the inevitable fall...but then when Amma is here, it seems to me, that She is supporting us all with HER Sakti, and when She goes, and we're back in our ordinary lives, we, who are not at the energy levels of Amma feel a fall in consciousness levels. i think that is to be expected until one is enlightened oneself...but even then how can we expect to be at the same levels as Ammachi, Who has taken a birth here out of compassion to be with Her children and comfort them. For me Amma is an Avatar of the Adi Para Sakti, the Divine Mother. so She is like the Sun in Her energy levels in comparison with us ordinary mortals who are more like a candle flame. so why should we be surprised that in Her presence we feel such a lift in consciousness and energy, can do seva for many many hours, without sleep and so on, whereas in our ordinary lives after She has gone, we get tired a lot more easily, and feel less exalted spiritually, especially if we live more ordinarily in our heads, rather than our hearts....... >>>I probably have asked this before but I don't recall. I am split with regard to omniscience and whether She is always aware of me or not. The rational side cannot countenance such absurdity: there are 25 million devotees, who would all have to be monitored all day, not to mention all sentient beings. And yet, She does say it and the guru cannot be wrong, unless she's altogether deluded and maybe brain-damaged. Do you have any light to shed on this thorny problem? The only " solution " is that she personally is not aware,k but as divine mother is, but that's really not good, since it is the personal She that matters, not whether the universe in some sense is with me.<<< ....in my view, you are " split " with regard to a lot of issues around Amma, as we have seen and discussed over the last few years, and yes i believe that you have asked me before for my take on this issue...but then basically just argued the rationalist side of the issue, and we didn't get anywhere with it. it appears to me that you are more of a " head " person, living mostly in the intellectual mind. this will cause many problems when we embark upon a spiritual life, as the head mind is the rationalist side, the side that can't accept miracles, can't accept intuition, can't accept much of what is said to be a major part of the spiritual life. the head mind is the original " doubting Thomas " . and no matter how many ways i can come up with to " prove " my point of view to you, if you are living in the head mind, they will not succeed, because doubting Thomas will be unable to believe them... thus we have that old saying: For a person of faith no proof is necessary of God's existence, whereas for a person of no faith, no proof will ever suffice to prove the same. the reason for the above, is that even though no proof is necessary for the person of deep faith, the proof will be forthcoming every day, as he feels the living presence of his Beloved Lord in his heart, and experiences all the time that his Beloved is watching over him, providing for every need, protecting him from harm and so on...whereas the person of no faith, even WHEN God is looking after him will be unable to see this or attribute the events to the Deity. when we live more in our hearts, we can feel a living connection with Mother all the time. we can feel that Mother is watching over us, that She is giving us every day exactly what we need to grow to be Her adorable children. She will provide whatever is needed as the needs come up...often at the very last moment before " ruin " ..and the help will seem to be miraculous to us when we live in the heart, but will merely seem to be a " coincidence " of no importance to the intellectual mind. to a person of Fait is is obvious by the events that happen, that AMMA is listening in all the time to our thoughts and conversations and so on...my wife and i have MANY proofs of this in our ordinary life...but for the intellectual mind, these proofs would not suffice...only for the Heart mind, the mind of Love and Faith, is this obvious. i could go over many of these proofs with you, but if you have no Faith they would be a waste of time for me to write and for you to read. So really what it comes down to is whether we have FAITH or NOT. so we have to take a leap and just TRY IT OUT FOR A WHILE...and see if it works. (that's what i did back in the early 90's...with no set belief either for or against, just TRIED calling the Divine Mother, as Paramahansa Yogananda suggested in His " How to talk to GOD " booklet " ). we must systematically discount EVERYTHING NEGATIVE the intellect has to say about the spiritual life, about AMMA, and about miracles, and faith and so on...just IGNORE those rationalist thoughts for a while...trying out (in a scientific manner if you like) whether this Faith thing works or not...but we HAVE to honestly TRY the experiment, and try to move our consciousness from the HEAD MIND...the BUDDHI, which is ruled by MERCURY, who is the messenger, but doesn't believe in anything DOWN to the HEART MIND, the HRDAYA, which in Jyotish is ruled by MOON, a femine, receptive planet, Who has tremendous Compassion and Faith. Of course most of this is likely only accomplished by the Grace of the Guru or God, and we can try and try forever, if we do not have that Grace...but then Amma always says that the wind of Grace is always blowing, we have only to raise our sail in the right direction to take advantage of it...we have only to make the right self-effort, and our efforts will be blessed with Grace...this is truly my own experience in this spiritual life. i have been given so much more than i actually deserve by my efforts that i can taste the Grace which has given it to me. (part of that " self effort, i believe is the suspension of disbelief, and discounting of the intellectual mind's negative talk for the duration of the " experiment " if we cannot do this our spiritual path will get stuck until we can. Mother ALWAYS says that we need to move down from the HEAD mind into the Heart mind....She likens the Head mind to the " Male " consciousness, the Male way of seeing things, like scissors, cutting everything up...dissecting reality to find out what the parts are made of. On the other hand, She likens the Heart Mind to the FEMALE, MOTHERLY, Loving, compassionate way of seeing things, like a needle and thread, always stitching all the parts of reality into a seamless WHOLE. She says that EVERYONE, men and women need to develop this MOTHERLY way of seeing things and people, and that we must always try to live this loving compassionate understanding by helping people and comforting them. this is why She suggests that we do seva...to exhaust the head mind, and to energise the heart mind in compassion and Love...through comforting people in pain, and helping the downtrodden ones. also it is good to pray unceasingly to Her (or God if we prefer) to open our hearts, to come to us, to reveal Herself to us in our hearts, so that we can live in that loving and comforting presence all the time, and when ever we are sad or lonely, we can go within to find Mother's comforting presence..... >>>>In any case, on another note, the scaffolding, so to speak, is gone. that force that made it all effortless. after two days it began to fall, then by day 3 it was wobbly, then by 4 it was past tense. A week later, ouch. You know from the outside, all this makes me a " cultist " in the eyes of many, if not all who surround me. Just the idea that I think this person is God, and may be aware of me...Just the possibility entertained makes me far gone in the eyes of just about everyone I know, outside of the circle.<<<< Avram ......dear brother...do you really care what others may think of you??? people are always only too willing to condemn that which they don't understand, or are not willing to investigate impartially...after all, just think of what Amma is doing every day....is She a cult leader? what does She get out of all this? She spends every day of Her life, even when sick (and Swamini Krishnamrita Prana says Amma does not really have a healthy body) crucifying Herself daily for us...bringing Her loving and compassionate presence right to our door so to speak, giving us the hugs and kisses, and endearing words that we long to hear, but only hear from HER... this is NOT easy for Her despite what She says...because Her body is in a lot of pain from the " repetitive strain " injuries that She has inflicted upon it for the last 35 years, hugging people and rubbing their backs, and whispering endearments into their ears...Her back is sore, Her arms ache, Her shoulders are worn out, Her elbows too, and YET what does She do? take a rest? NEVER...even though She is in a LOT of pain, She insists on going beyond it to comfort Her devotees...you can see young women behind Her daily, rubbing Her shoulders, arms, back and so on, and putting hot or cold compresses on the sorest places... you can see Amma pursing Her lips together in Pain between darshans, only to light up Her face with a loving smile and welcoming eyes for the next child who comes to Her. i have seen all these things while waiting in the prasad seva line, and while doing the star gazing seva...and yet Amma NEVER thinks of Herself...only of Her children...this is a CULT? if so, let me join life after life...Mother does all of this out of Her Love for us.....She says this Love is what gives Her the energy to continue. if you are worried about what other people think, and that they consider us to be a cult..then you will never get anywhere in the spiritual life...in fact, as Swami Paramatmananda used to say, the deeper he went into the spiritual life, the less friends he had. they deserted him in droves the more into spirit he immersed himself...because, mainly, they were simply NOT interested in such a life, nor in such a person as would pursue such a life. i had exactly the same experience, when i got into spiritual life....all my old " friends " and acquaintances deserted me or i deserted them. i wasn't interested in what they liked, nor were they interested in my particular fascinations...we simply bored each other...so i had to make NEW friends who were spiritually oriented...but really it became far less IMPORTANT to me whether i had so called " friends " or not. i felt that Mother would send them to me at the right time, and wasn't so worried about that issue. again, if Amma and Her children are a cult, i am still happy to be a member of the " cult " ...but i do not believe that we fit the definition of the classic cult despite what some of the nay sayers on the list might believe and say....at least no more of a cult that Krsna and his gopis were, or Sri Ramakrsna and Sarada Devi and their " children " (followers) were... i am going to post this both directly to you, and on the Amma list, because i think what you have expressed to me would resonate with a lot of Amma's more intellectual childred, and i am hoping that what i have written may be of some help to you and them. anyways, whatever the results, i pray that you will use what is good for you from this writing, and simply discard the rest. wishing you all the best, in Amma's Divine Love, and in Her Service, as ever, your own Self, visvanathan Om Amrtesvaryai Namah! 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Guest guest Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 thanks visvanath, well written. one of many things that helps me, after Amma leaves, is to meditate on Amma in the heart. another, is like you say, to do some seva. blueberry season in NJ just ended. fist time I gave some blueberries to a homeless man, another street lady said " they don't want blueberries " well, she was wrong; he really liked them and just a few days ago, I can report the statistic that 7 out of 10 homeless people like blueberries om amma amma in the sky amma in my heart amma in the homeless always amma bless, amarnath Ammachi , " kasi_visvanath " <kasi_visvanath wrote: > > Om Amrtesvaryai Namah! > > Namaskarams to Avram and to ALL my brothers and sisters! > > i trust and pray that Amma is blessing you and protecting you all! > > i received a letter from Avram the other day, and after writing him a > response, and because he had expressed similar feeling on this list, i > thought i would post my reply to him on the list for everyone. i hope > you all enjoy...again just use what you like and throw away the rest! > > Namaskarams dear Avram! > i will respond to your letter to me at the appropriate breaks in your > sentences, signalling my entry with " .... " and yours with " >>><<< " > > you said:>>>HI V. > > I got back from Ammaland last week. A lot goes down in such time. The > inevitable fall of consciousness.<<< > > ....you said: the inevitable fall...but then when Amma is here, it > seems to me, that She is supporting us all with HER Sakti, and when > She goes, and we're back in our ordinary lives, we, who are not at the > energy levels of Amma feel a fall in consciousness levels. > i think that is to be expected until one is enlightened oneself...but > even then how can we expect to be at the same levels as Ammachi, Who > has taken a birth here out of compassion to be with Her children and > comfort them. > > For me Amma is an Avatar of the Adi Para Sakti, the Divine Mother. so > She is like the Sun in Her energy levels in comparison with us > ordinary mortals who are more like a candle flame. so why should we be > surprised that in Her presence we feel such a lift in consciousness > and energy, can do seva for many many hours, without sleep and so on, > whereas in our ordinary lives after She has gone, we get tired a lot > more easily, and feel less exalted spiritually, especially if we live > more ordinarily in our heads, rather than our hearts....... > > >>>I probably have asked this before but I don't recall. I am split > with regard to omniscience and whether She is always aware of me or > not. The rational side cannot countenance such absurdity: there are 25 > million devotees, who would all have to be monitored all day, not to > mention all sentient beings. And yet, She does say it and the guru > cannot be wrong, unless she's altogether deluded and maybe > brain-damaged. Do you have any light to shed on this thorny problem? > The only " solution " is that she personally is not aware,k but as > divine mother is, but that's really not good, since it is the personal > She that matters, not whether the universe in some sense is with me.<<< > > ...in my view, you are " split " with regard to a lot of issues around > Amma, as we have seen and discussed over the last few years, and yes i > believe that you have asked me before for my take on this issue...but > then basically just argued the rationalist side of the issue, and we > didn't get anywhere with it. > > it appears to me that you are more of a " head " person, living mostly > in the intellectual mind. this will cause many problems when we embark > upon a spiritual life, as the head mind is the rationalist side, the > side that can't accept miracles, can't accept intuition, can't accept > much of what is said to be a major part of the spiritual life. the > head mind is the original " doubting Thomas " . and no matter how many > ways i can come up with to " prove " my point of view to you, if you are > living in the head mind, they will not succeed, because doubting > Thomas will be unable to believe them... > > thus we have that old saying: For a person of faith no proof is > necessary of God's existence, whereas for a person of no faith, no > proof will ever suffice to prove the same. > > the reason for the above, is that even though no proof is necessary > for the person of deep faith, the proof will be forthcoming every day, > as he feels the living presence of his Beloved Lord in his heart, and > experiences all the time that his Beloved is watching over him, > providing for every need, protecting him from harm and so on...whereas > the person of no faith, even WHEN God is looking after him will be > unable to see this or attribute the events to the Deity. > > when we live more in our hearts, we can feel a living connection with > Mother all the time. we can feel that Mother is watching over us, that > She is giving us every day exactly what we need to grow to be Her > adorable children. She will provide whatever is needed as the needs > come up...often at the very last moment before " ruin " ..and the help > will seem to be miraculous to us when we live in the heart, but will > merely seem to be a " coincidence " of no importance to the intellectual > mind. to a person of Fait is is obvious by the events that happen, > that AMMA is listening in all the time to our thoughts and > conversations and so on...my wife and i have MANY proofs of this in > our ordinary life...but for the intellectual mind, these proofs would > not suffice...only for the Heart mind, the mind of Love and Faith, is > this obvious. i could go over many of these proofs with you, but if > you have no Faith they would be a waste of time for me to write and > for you to read. > > So really what it comes down to is whether we have FAITH or NOT. so we > have to take a leap and just TRY IT OUT FOR A WHILE...and see if it > works. (that's what i did back in the early 90's...with no set belief > either for or against, just TRIED calling the Divine Mother, as > Paramahansa Yogananda suggested in His " How to talk to GOD " booklet " ). > we must systematically discount EVERYTHING NEGATIVE the intellect has > to say about the spiritual life, about AMMA, and about miracles, and > faith and so on...just IGNORE those rationalist thoughts for a > while...trying out (in a scientific manner if you like) whether this > Faith thing works or not...but we HAVE to honestly TRY the experiment, > and try to move our consciousness from the HEAD MIND...the BUDDHI, > which is ruled by MERCURY, who is the messenger, but doesn't believe > in anything DOWN to the HEART MIND, the HRDAYA, > which in Jyotish is ruled by MOON, a femine, receptive planet, Who has > tremendous Compassion and Faith. > > Of course most of this is likely only accomplished by the Grace of the > Guru or God, and we can try and try forever, if we do not have that > Grace...but then Amma always says that the wind of Grace is always > blowing, we have only to raise our sail in the right direction to take > advantage of it...we have only to make the right self-effort, and our > efforts will be blessed with Grace...this is truly my own experience > in this spiritual life. i have been given so much more than i actually > deserve by my efforts that i can taste the Grace which has given it to > me. (part of that " self effort, i believe is the suspension of > disbelief, and discounting of the intellectual mind's negative talk > for the duration of the " experiment " > > if we cannot do this our spiritual path will get stuck until we can. > Mother ALWAYS says that we need to move down from the HEAD mind into > the Heart mind....She likens the Head mind to the " Male " > consciousness, the Male way of seeing things, like scissors, cutting > everything up...dissecting reality to find out what the parts are made > of. On the other hand, She likens the Heart Mind to the FEMALE, > MOTHERLY, Loving, compassionate way of seeing things, like a needle > and thread, always stitching all the parts of reality into a seamless > WHOLE. > > She says that EVERYONE, men and women need to develop this MOTHERLY > way of seeing things and people, and that we must always try to live > this loving compassionate understanding by helping people and > comforting them. > this is why She suggests that we do seva...to exhaust the head mind, > and to energise the heart mind in compassion and Love...through > comforting people in pain, and helping the downtrodden ones. > > also it is good to pray unceasingly to Her (or God if we prefer) to > open our hearts, to come to us, to reveal Herself to us in our hearts, > so that we can live in that loving and comforting presence all the > time, and when ever we are sad or lonely, we can go within to find > Mother's comforting presence..... > > > >>>>In any case, on another note, the scaffolding, so to speak, is > gone. that force that made it all effortless. after two days it began > to fall, then by day 3 it was wobbly, then by 4 it was past tense. A > week later, ouch. You know from the outside, all this makes me a > " cultist " in the eyes of many, if not all who surround me. Just the > idea that I think this person is God, and may be aware of me...Just > the possibility entertained makes me far gone in the eyes of just > about everyone I know, outside of the circle.<<<< > > Avram > > .....dear brother...do you really care what others may think of you??? > people are always only too willing to condemn that which they don't > understand, or are not willing to investigate impartially...after all, > just think of what Amma is doing every day....is She a cult leader? > what does She get out of all this? > > She spends every day of Her life, even when sick (and Swamini > Krishnamrita Prana says Amma does not really have a healthy body) > crucifying Herself daily for us...bringing Her loving and > compassionate presence right to our door so to speak, giving us the > hugs and kisses, and endearing words that we long to hear, but only > hear from HER... > > this is NOT easy for Her despite what She says...because Her body is > in a lot of pain from the " repetitive strain " injuries that She has > inflicted upon it for the last 35 years, hugging people and rubbing > their backs, and whispering endearments into their ears...Her back is > sore, Her arms ache, Her shoulders are worn out, Her elbows too, and > YET what does She do? take a rest? NEVER...even though She is in a LOT > of pain, She insists on going beyond it to comfort Her devotees...you > can see young women behind Her daily, rubbing Her shoulders, arms, > back and so on, and putting hot or cold compresses on the sorest places... > > you can see Amma pursing Her lips together in Pain between darshans, > only to light up Her face with a loving smile and welcoming eyes for > the next child who comes to Her. i have seen all these things while > waiting in the prasad seva line, and while doing the star gazing > seva...and yet Amma NEVER thinks of Herself...only of Her > children...this is a CULT? if so, let me join life after life...Mother > does all of this out of Her Love for us.....She says this Love is what > gives Her the energy to continue. > > if you are worried about what other people think, and that they > consider us to be a cult..then you will never get anywhere in the > spiritual life...in fact, as Swami Paramatmananda used to say, the > deeper he went into the spiritual life, the less friends he had. they > deserted him in droves the more into spirit he immersed > himself...because, mainly, they were simply NOT interested in such a > life, nor in such a person as would pursue such a life. i had exactly > the same experience, when i got into spiritual life....all my old > " friends " and acquaintances deserted me or i deserted them. i wasn't > interested in what they liked, nor were they interested in my > particular fascinations...we simply bored each other...so i had to > make NEW friends who were spiritually oriented...but really it became > far less IMPORTANT to me whether i had so called " friends " or not. i > felt that Mother would send them to me at the right time, and wasn't > so worried about that issue. > > again, if Amma and Her children are a cult, i am still happy to be a > member of the " cult " ...but i do not believe that we fit the definition > of the classic cult despite what some of the nay sayers on the list > might believe and say....at least no more of a cult that Krsna and his > gopis were, or Sri Ramakrsna and Sarada Devi and their " children " > (followers) were... > > i am going to post this both directly to you, and on the Amma list, > because i think what you have expressed to me would resonate with a > lot of Amma's more intellectual childred, and i am hoping that what i > have written may be of some help to you and them. > > anyways, whatever the results, i pray that you will use what is good > for you from this writing, and simply discard the rest. > > wishing you all the best, > in Amma's Divine Love, > and in Her Service, > as ever, > your own Self, > > visvanathan > > Om Amrtesvaryai Namah! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2007 Report Share Posted August 2, 2007 Ammachi , " amarnath " <anatol_zinc wrote: > > thanks visvanath, > > well written. > > one of many things that helps me, > after Amma leaves, > is to meditate on Amma in the heart. > > another, is like you say, to do some seva. > blueberry season in NJ just ended. > fist time I gave some blueberries to a homeless man, > another street lady said " they don't want blueberries " > well, she was wrong; he really liked them > and just a few days ago, > I can report the statistic > that 7 out of 10 homeless people like blueberries > > om amma > amma in the sky > amma in my heart > amma in the homeless > always > > amma bless, > amarnath > LOL, yeah Amarnath, that is fustrating for me as well about cooking for homeless or the disadvantged, the charity usually ends up cooking meatloaf or some such junk, assumming that people won't want vegetarian food. but my experience is that everybody goes bonkers for good fresh vegie food, they absolutely will request over the other stuff once they are served it! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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