Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Mary, I've been thinking a lot about this lately. Through work with my patients, I've had some practice loving people who have done some pretty heinous evil (e.g., murder, rape, sexual abuse of children). What trips me up, though, is how (or whether it's even wise) to relate in a loving way to psychopathic individuals, who not only lack the ability to empathize with others, but use and twist others' empathy for them and attempts to help them into furthering their own evil/harmful desires (there is some truth to the adage that trying to help a psychopath just helps create a better psychopath). Granted, this is a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of the people in this world, but I feel stumped in how to relate to them in a way that is aligned with my spiritual path, but that is not inadvertently detrimental. I like to believe that there is hope for all of us, but sometimes that's hard. Also pondering, Iswari Ammachi , " Mary E " <francesthompson0 wrote: > > > This is so cool! I have been pondering the existence of people who do evil and how does > one go about loving them (or even just not feeling anger towards them)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 dear beloved sibling.what you have shared has touched this heart tremendously.it takes so much internal courage to continue in this type of hope and faith.it is true that even in in the midst of all of that evil character AMMA still loves them as HER precious beloved children.that is so awsome!AMMA says to hate the sin ,but not the sinner... the auther of the RAMAYANA Valmaki was a murderer and robber and the compassion of a sage changed his life and that act working through Valmaki's heart gave us one of the most revered scriptures in India...your love for them is not in vain... tmba lived in the biggest psychiatric shelter in new york city for four years with some of these same people that you are speaking about.he also has been in a few situations were he has been surrounded with murderers and rapest.. dear sister your brother is touched by your strength and willingness to love and to serve. > " ammasiswari " <ammasiswari >Ammachi >Ammachi > Re: Loving people who " do evil... " >Sun, 27 May 2007 22:16:36 -0000 > >Mary, I've been thinking a lot about this lately. Through work with my >patients, I've had >some practice loving people who have done some pretty heinous evil (e.g., >murder, rape, >sexual abuse of children). What trips me up, though, is how (or whether >it's even wise) to >relate in a loving way to psychopathic individuals, who not only lack the >ability to >empathize with others, but use and twist others' empathy for them and >attempts to help >them into furthering their own evil/harmful desires (there is some truth to >the adage that >trying to help a psychopath just helps create a better psychopath). >Granted, this is a tiny, >tiny, tiny percentage of the people in this world, but I feel stumped in >how to relate to >them in a way that is aligned with my spiritual path, but that is not >inadvertently >detrimental. I like to believe that there is hope for all of us, but >sometimes that's hard. > >Also pondering, >Iswari > >Ammachi , " Mary E " <francesthompson0 wrote: > > > > > > This is so cool! I have been pondering the existence of people who do >evil and how does > > one go about loving them (or even just not feeling anger towards >them)... > _______________ Catch suspicious messages before you open them—with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM\ _mini_protection_0507 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Dear Iswari, This is an interesting question and good point to bring up. A reason why Amma inspires me so much is that I don't experience her message of love and compassion as advocating the traditional way of loving at the expense of the self. In a talk at one of her Los Angeles appearances a few years ago, Amma recommended we be aware of to whom we are speaking, otherwise possibly we might receive a punch in the mouth! This was stated humorously, but was apt in terms of recognizing the limits or mindset of those we encounter, being mindful, and taking care. I posted this at AmmaBhakti but it seems apt to this thread so I will post it here, too: In Faith (the book), Sharon Salzberg talks about a spiritual teacher of hers who walked with his students into the marketplace and stood bargaining with vendors. One of the students questioned whether that was a very spiritual way to be, bargaining with vendors in the marketplace. The teacher answered: " Living a simple life does not mean being a simpleton. " Ammachi , " ammasiswari " <ammasiswari wrote: > > Mary, I've been thinking a lot about this lately. Through work with my patients, I've had > some practice loving people who have done some pretty heinous evil (e.g., murder, rape, > sexual abuse of children). What trips me up, though, is how (or whether it's even wise) to > relate in a loving way to psychopathic individuals, who not only lack the ability to > empathize with others, but use and twist others' empathy for them and attempts to help > them into furthering their own evil/harmful desires (there is some truth to the adage that > trying to help a psychopath just helps create a better psychopath). Granted, this is a tiny, > tiny, tiny percentage of the people in this world, but I feel stumped in how to relate to > them in a way that is aligned with my spiritual path, but that is not inadvertently > detrimental. I like to believe that there is hope for all of us, but sometimes that's hard. > > Also pondering, > Iswari > > Ammachi , " Mary E " <francesthompson0@> wrote: > > > > > > This is so cool! I have been pondering the existence of people who do evil and how does > > one go about loving them (or even just not feeling anger towards them)... > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 thankyou for sharing this dear sibling.this is what came to your brother after he contemplated what your shared.LIFE can punch us in the face in many ways.we can be punched emotionally,physically and even spiritually.we probally all can relate to this. it is important to duck when the puch of life is thrown at us and it is equally important to not throw any punches ourselves.if we are punched by LIFE it is important to forgive and not return the punch. that has been a great challenge for AMMAs sun.it seems that those punches of LIFE have become this childs greatest teachers.they have taught temba to sympathize with how it feels and to have compassion for those that feel overwelmed by the punch of life. it is true that we should raise our awareness and practice as much shrada(alertness) as possible ,but we should also do our best to remain aware in how AMMA is teaching us and guiding us through the vehicle of the inevitable PUNCH of LIFE..tmba prays that AMMA is pleased with what he has shared. > " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61 >Ammachi >Ammachi > Re: Loving people who " do evil... " >Mon, 28 May 2007 00:59:07 -0000 > >Dear Iswari, > >This is an interesting question and good point to bring up. > >A reason why Amma inspires me so much is that I don't experience her >message of love and compassion as advocating the traditional way of >loving at the expense of the self. In a talk at one of her Los Angeles >appearances a few years ago, Amma recommended we be aware of to whom >we are speaking, otherwise possibly we might receive a punch in the >mouth! This was stated humorously, but was apt in terms of recognizing >the limits or mindset of those we encounter, being mindful, and taking >care. > >I posted this at AmmaBhakti but it seems apt to this thread so I will >post it here, too: > >In Faith (the book), Sharon Salzberg talks about a spiritual teacher >of hers who walked with his students into the marketplace >and stood bargaining with vendors. One of the students >questioned whether that was a very spiritual way to be, >bargaining with vendors in the marketplace. The teacher >answered: " Living a simple life does not mean being a >simpleton. " > > >Ammachi , " ammasiswari " <ammasiswari wrote: > > > > Mary, I've been thinking a lot about this lately. Through work with >my patients, I've had > > some practice loving people who have done some pretty heinous evil >(e.g., murder, rape, > > sexual abuse of children). What trips me up, though, is how (or >whether it's even wise) to > > relate in a loving way to psychopathic individuals, who not only >lack the ability to > > empathize with others, but use and twist others' empathy for them >and attempts to help > > them into furthering their own evil/harmful desires (there is some >truth to the adage that > > trying to help a psychopath just helps create a better psychopath). >Granted, this is a tiny, > > tiny, tiny percentage of the people in this world, but I feel >stumped in how to relate to > > them in a way that is aligned with my spiritual path, but that is >not inadvertently > > detrimental. I like to believe that there is hope for all of us, but >sometimes that's hard. > > > > Also pondering, > > Iswari > > > > Ammachi , " Mary E " <francesthompson0@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > This is so cool! I have been pondering the existence of people who >do evil and how does > > > one go about loving them (or even just not feeling anger towards >them)... > > > > _______________ PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM\ _mini_pcmag_0507 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Thank you for sharing that, Temba. I appreciate the window into your world, and invite you to share more specifically if you would care to. As I posted what you replied to, I was recalling recently a Christian friend becoming upset with my mentioning the poor grammar and violence in the phrase: " The wages of sin is death, " a quote from the Bible. My friend was offended by my criticism when I interpreted that phrase to be using fear to control rather than love to guide. About punches, being on the receiving end, maybe not ducking in time, or reflexively punching back, or even throwing the first punch in reaction to something that seemed like a threat...I thought of the stories of Jesus overturning the tables in the temple. Also, Jesus withering the fig tree because it was not producing fruit when he hungered. Are there any stories of Amma losing her temper, speaking harshly, and/or acting in ways that others have said are not spiritual, enlightened or evolved? I would feel heartened to read accounts in which Amma herself has struggled with emotions. I have read Amma's own seeming defenses of gurus whose behavior or words seemed harsh. Amma said that was because the observers did not understand what the guru was intending, or where his words were coming from, and Amma urges us not to judge, but to see the good in others. Yet it is difficult when our own harshness arrives on the scene. Recently I received difficult to hear feedback in my training in Nonviolent Communication - I'm not ready for certification yet, basically, and in fact, despite over a year of training, I've truly only just begun, and that became quite clear to me recently as I have been under stress of change -- willing changes made in employment, but stressful nonetheless, and finding myself reacting more and thinking less before speaking Ammachi , " temba spirits " <tembaspirits wrote: > > thankyou for sharing this dear sibling.this is what came to your brother > after he contemplated what your shared.LIFE can punch us in the face in many > ways.we can be punched emotionally,physically and even spiritually.we > probally all can relate to this. > > it is important to duck when the puch of life is thrown at us and it is > equally important to not throw any punches ourselves.if we are punched by > LIFE it is important to forgive and not return the punch. > > that has been a great challenge for AMMAs sun.it seems that those punches of > LIFE have become this childs greatest teachers.they have taught temba to > sympathize with how it feels and to have compassion for those that feel > overwelmed by the punch of life. > > it is true that we should raise our awareness and practice as much > shrada(alertness) as possible ,but we should also do our best to remain > aware in how AMMA is teaching us and guiding us through the vehicle of the > inevitable PUNCH of LIFE..tmba prays that AMMA is pleased with what he has > shared. > > > > > > " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61 > >Ammachi > >Ammachi > > Re: Loving people who " do evil... " > >Mon, 28 May 2007 00:59:07 -0000 > > > >Dear Iswari, > > > >This is an interesting question and good point to bring up. > > > >A reason why Amma inspires me so much is that I don't experience her > >message of love and compassion as advocating the traditional way of > >loving at the expense of the self. In a talk at one of her Los Angeles > >appearances a few years ago, Amma recommended we be aware of to whom > >we are speaking, otherwise possibly we might receive a punch in the > >mouth! This was stated humorously, but was apt in terms of recognizing > >the limits or mindset of those we encounter, being mindful, and taking > >care. > > > >I posted this at AmmaBhakti but it seems apt to this thread so I will > >post it here, too: > > > >In Faith (the book), Sharon Salzberg talks about a spiritual teacher > >of hers who walked with his students into the marketplace > >and stood bargaining with vendors. One of the students > >questioned whether that was a very spiritual way to be, > >bargaining with vendors in the marketplace. The teacher > >answered: " Living a simple life does not mean being a > >simpleton. " > > > > > >Ammachi , " ammasiswari " <ammasiswari@> wrote: > > > > > > Mary, I've been thinking a lot about this lately. Through work with > >my patients, I've had > > > some practice loving people who have done some pretty heinous evil > >(e.g., murder, rape, > > > sexual abuse of children). What trips me up, though, is how (or > >whether it's even wise) to > > > relate in a loving way to psychopathic individuals, who not only > >lack the ability to > > > empathize with others, but use and twist others' empathy for them > >and attempts to help > > > them into furthering their own evil/harmful desires (there is some > >truth to the adage that > > > trying to help a psychopath just helps create a better psychopath). > >Granted, this is a tiny, > > > tiny, tiny percentage of the people in this world, but I feel > >stumped in how to relate to > > > them in a way that is aligned with my spiritual path, but that is > >not inadvertently > > > detrimental. I like to believe that there is hope for all of us, but > >sometimes that's hard. > > > > > > Also pondering, > > > Iswari > > > > > > Ammachi , " Mary E " <francesthompson0@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > This is so cool! I have been pondering the existence of people who > >do evil and how does > > > > one go about loving them (or even just not feeling anger towards > >them)... > > > > > > > > > _______________ > PC Magazine's 2007 editors' choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows > Live Hotmail. > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM\ _mini_pcmag_0507 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 I am thinking along the lines of anger that arises in response to injustice, and channeling that energy into compassion rather than allowing it to injure. The example I gave of the fig tree and Jesus, however, though I have read different interpretations of it, I appreciate that story because it allows Jesus to be human, to have had a lapse, to not have recognized the power of his thought to cause harm. Also, his overturning of the tables in the temple; he was angry. I would still like to know whether Amma has ever shared stories of being overcome by her own emotions, and whether she has experienced anger, and if so, how, when, at what did it arise, and what did she do with it, or about it, if anything. Did she accept it, acknowledge it, let it go, etc. In Nonviolent Communication, and also in some other works I have read recently, specifically The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner, anger is considered to be a signal that that there is a need that is being overlooked. To " stop " the anger, one must discover the need and address it. I am realizing that my work now is to learn to strengthen my ability to recognize a need when any strong emotion arises, and to be compassionate toward myself, or toward whomever is experiencing that intensity of emotion, so that I can guide the energy in the direction of love rather than allow it to spiral toward or in anger. And Amma's example does inspire and inform me greatly. Thank you again for sharing. Ammachi , " temba spirits " <tembaspirits wrote: > > dear beloved sister,this is quot is what HER grace pulled into my spirit > when tmba read your most precious words. > > " Rama,Krishna,and Jesus were all-powerful, all-pervading,and > all-knowing.When you say that Krinna killed,you are forgetting that , He > also gave life.Do you recall how He brought Arjuna's grandson back to life? > The child was born dead,but Krisna gave the child life.It was the same > Krisna who bestowed the ultimate fulfillment of human birth,emancipation,on > the hunter whose arrow killed Krisna's body.It is said that the people who > were killed by HIM were all freed eternally from the cycle of birth and > death. " > " When you kill or destroy someone or something,you only lengthen the chain > of your own karma. > It is your destructive mind-your anger,hatred,selfishness or greed-that > causes you to do such things. The anger or greed or selfishness in you > persuades you to do evil,and that action adds to your existing anger,greed > and selfishness.It blows more air into the ballloon of your ego,and you > become more puffed up.Each time you act selfishly or angrily or greedily you > are taking one more holiday,one more day of leave,from the state of > perfection,from your eternal freedom. " > " If you do not care how many births you take or how much you will have to > suffer,that is your choice.But you are harming other people.Not only by > injuring or killing someone,but BY JUST FEELING ANGRY,JUST BY ACTING > GREEDILY OR SELFISHLY TOWARDS OTHERS,YOU ARE TRIGGERING THE SAME NEGATIVE > FEELINGS IN THEM.your negative feelings will invoke the same negative > feeliings as well.They to will suffer thereby adding to the storehouse of > their karma,and will be born again with additional vasanas that have been > accumulated.Thus through your anger or selfishness,you have lengthened the > chain of someone else's karma.You are responsible,since it happens due to > your anger and greed.This is th ekind of destruction that you do. " AMMA > pg.172 Awaken children volume 6. > > " LIFE WILL 'BEAT YOU UP' UNTIL YOU LEARN YOUR LESSONS " AMMA pg.175 vloume 6. > > " Prostration is a symbol of selfless surrender.The physical prostration > becomes meaningful only when you surrender your ego at the feet of the GURU > or GOD..When you prostrate,you are inviting the GURU or GOD to trample your > ego.The GURU or GOD will not do that to an ordinary devotee,but they will do > it' RUTHLESSLY' to a true seeker. " AMMA pg.214 volume six. > > there is more dear sister. > > > > > " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61 > >Ammachi > >Ammachi > > Re: Loving people who " do evil... " > >Mon, 28 May 2007 02:58:51 -0000 > > > >Thank you for sharing that, Temba. I appreciate the window into your > >world, and invite you to share more specifically if you would care to. > > > >As I posted what you replied to, I was recalling recently a Christian > >friend becoming upset with my mentioning the poor grammar and violence > >in the phrase: " The wages of sin is death, " a quote from the Bible. My > >friend was offended by my criticism when I interpreted that phrase to > >be using fear to control rather than love to guide. > > > >About punches, being on the receiving end, maybe not ducking in time, > >or reflexively punching back, or even throwing the first punch in > >reaction to something that seemed like a threat...I thought of the > >stories of Jesus overturning the tables in the temple. Also, Jesus > >withering the fig tree because it was not producing fruit when he > >hungered. > > > >Are there any stories of Amma losing her temper, speaking harshly, > >and/or acting in ways that others have said are not spiritual, > >enlightened or evolved? I would feel heartened to read accounts in > >which Amma herself has struggled with emotions. > > > >I have read Amma's own seeming defenses of gurus whose behavior or > >words seemed harsh. Amma said that was because the observers did not > >understand what the guru was intending, or where his words were coming > >from, and Amma urges us not to judge, but to see the good in others. > >Yet it is difficult when our own harshness arrives on the scene. > > > >Recently I received difficult to hear feedback in my training in > >Nonviolent Communication - I'm not ready for certification yet, > >basically, and in fact, despite over a year of training, I've truly > >only just begun, and that became quite clear to me recently as I have > >been under stress of change -- willing changes made in employment, but > >stressful nonetheless, and finding myself reacting more and thinking > >less before speaking > > > > > >Ammachi , " temba spirits " <tembaspirits@> wrote: > > > > > > thankyou for sharing this dear sibling.this is what came to your > >brother > > > after he contemplated what your shared.LIFE can punch us in the face > >in many > > > ways.we can be punched emotionally,physically and even spiritually.we > > > probally all can relate to this. > > > > > > it is important to duck when the puch of life is thrown at us and it is > > > equally important to not throw any punches ourselves.if we are > >punched by > > > LIFE it is important to forgive and not return the punch. > > > > > > that has been a great challenge for AMMAs sun.it seems that those > >punches of > > > LIFE have become this childs greatest teachers.they have taught > >temba to > > > sympathize with how it feels and to have compassion for those that feel > > > overwelmed by the punch of life. > > > > > > it is true that we should raise our awareness and practice as much > > > shrada(alertness) as possible ,but we should also do our best to remain > > > aware in how AMMA is teaching us and guiding us through the vehicle > >of the > > > inevitable PUNCH of LIFE..tmba prays that AMMA is pleased with what > >he has > > > shared. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61@> > > > >Ammachi > > > >Ammachi > > > > Re: Loving people who " do evil... " > > > >Mon, 28 May 2007 00:59:07 -0000 > > > > > > > >Dear Iswari, > > > > > > > >This is an interesting question and good point to bring up. > > > > > > > >A reason why Amma inspires me so much is that I don't experience her > > > >message of love and compassion as advocating the traditional way of > > > >loving at the expense of the self. In a talk at one of her Los Angeles > > > >appearances a few years ago, Amma recommended we be aware of to whom > > > >we are speaking, otherwise possibly we might receive a punch in the > > > >mouth! This was stated humorously, but was apt in terms of recognizing > > > >the limits or mindset of those we encounter, being mindful, and taking > > > >care. > > > > > > > >I posted this at AmmaBhakti but it seems apt to this thread so I will > > > >post it here, too: > > > > > > > >In Faith (the book), Sharon Salzberg talks about a spiritual teacher > > > >of hers who walked with his students into the marketplace > > > >and stood bargaining with vendors. One of the students > > > >questioned whether that was a very spiritual way to be, > > > >bargaining with vendors in the marketplace. The teacher > > > >answered: " Living a simple life does not mean being a > > > >simpleton. " > > > > > > > > > > > >Ammachi , " ammasiswari " <ammasiswari@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Mary, I've been thinking a lot about this lately. Through work with > > > >my patients, I've had > > > > > some practice loving people who have done some pretty heinous evil > > > >(e.g., murder, rape, > > > > > sexual abuse of children). What trips me up, though, is how (or > > > >whether it's even wise) to > > > > > relate in a loving way to psychopathic individuals, who not only > > > >lack the ability to > > > > > empathize with others, but use and twist others' empathy for them > > > >and attempts to help > > > > > them into furthering their own evil/harmful desires (there is some > > > >truth to the adage that > > > > > trying to help a psychopath just helps create a better psychopath). > > > >Granted, this is a tiny, > > > > > tiny, tiny percentage of the people in this world, but I feel > > > >stumped in how to relate to > > > > > them in a way that is aligned with my spiritual path, but that is > > > >not inadvertently > > > > > detrimental. I like to believe that there is hope for all of us, but > > > >sometimes that's hard. > > > > > > > > > > Also pondering, > > > > > Iswari > > > > > > > > > > Ammachi , " Mary E " <francesthompson0@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is so cool! I have been pondering the existence of people who > > > >do evil and how does > > > > > > one go about loving them (or even just not feeling anger towards > > > >them)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > > PC Magazine's 2007 editors' choice for best Web mail—award-winning > >Windows > > > Live Hotmail. > > > > >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_H\ M_mini_pcmag_0507 > > > > > > > > > _______________ > More photos, more messages, more storage—get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM\ _mini_2G_0507 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 There are many things here about anger. First of all, we cannot compare Christ and Amma's anger to our own. These being are avatars, enlightened and EVERY act that they perform is with an intent and purpose. When they display anger, it is not because they have " lost control " rather it is to guide the devotee or disciple. Their anger is one of raising spiritual awareness. There are countless stories of gurus acting aloof, angry or whatever human emotion exists but beneath the surface-they have pure mental peace and bliss. This is where we are so very different. They are in complete union with creation being the creators. On the other hand, compared to Amma and Christ, when we are angry, it is usually because we are losing control. At the same time, I do not believe in allowing the abuser to continue abuse. I consider that in so doing, it is actually abusive to them as well and those around them. Boundaries and safety and compliance with social standards are critical. But there is a WAY to deal with conflict without losing our own mental peace. I am a work in progress. I probably should point out that when I had a guy in our class who was verbally abusive, one lady in the class spoke to him about it without my knowledge. I tried to talk with him but he continued his rudeness so I dropped it with him. Instead I called in a third party- the union-who spoke in general terms to the entire group about workplace violence. Apparently that was all he needed to hear. At the same time, I remained kind to him. I dealt with the issue because who would he attack next? I felt it was in the interest of all to address this. But think about how many of us get angry on a daily basis about trivial matters? Amma says " If anger arises in you, do not express it immediately. Leave the place. Go and sit somewhere by yourself. Contemplate and meditate. You will find that the cause of your anger is not in the other person but within you. It is not the other person that causes it, but your past. The past is your reference book. Anger is within you. Someone accidentally touches the anger in you, and you erupt. " Now I don't think she means just walk away if someone is hurting another person physically or someone is in danger. So we need to also use discrimination in determining what is intended by Amma. Regarding the other person that we are angry at: " Do not make him experience more pain by pressing and squeezing harder and harder. This means that we should not return anger. By getting angry with a person who is angry with us, we are not treating the wound but making it bigger and bigger and deeper. Take pity on him and soothe his wound of anger. Chidren, once again, Mother wants to remind you that this is an opportunity. Mother knows very well that is it quite natural to have conflicts and arguments when we are in a group. None of you are Self Realized; therefore, disagreements among you can happen. But try to practice love and patience. " Amma's big fat baby, adriane Ammachi , " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61 wrote: > > I am thinking along the lines of anger that arises in response to > injustice, and channeling that energy into compassion rather than > allowing it to injure. The example I gave of the fig tree and Jesus, > however, though I have read different interpretations of it, I > appreciate that story because it allows Jesus to be human, to have had > a lapse, to not have recognized the power of his thought to cause > harm. Also, his overturning of the tables in the temple; he was angry. > I would still like to know whether Amma has ever shared stories of > being overcome by her own emotions, and whether she has experienced > anger, and if so, how, when, at what did it arise, and what did she do > with it, or about it, if anything. Did she accept it, acknowledge it, > let it go, etc. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 There is a lot of food for thought in these posts. I am reminded of some of Jesus' words (not that I am in any way proselitizing, but my basic faith background is Christian). Jesus told his followers that if any did not receive them, they were to shake the dust off their feet and go somewhere else. There are also quotes in the Old Testament that say, whom Godde loves he chastises. Jesus also says that he will come with a sword and fire-not very peaceful sounding words. We all have shadows in us. Negative energies, traits, etc. Until we embrace them and deal with them, they will hinder us. What Amma is saying is that she wants us to face those shadows in order to be more divine. It is a painful process. As far as loving a psychopath, I can relate. I was married to one, and my marriage was a nightmare of paranoia and abuse. My attitude is that I wish peace on this person, I no longer hate him or fear him, but for my own good, I would never be in contact with him. Godde gave us common sense also Mary E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 I greatly appreciate everyone's input on this thread. I think that gurus are subject to human emotion, just as they are subject to illness, and that sometimes, they might speak, although well-intended, in ways that might be harsh or hurtful, like any parent. Also, I think sometimes social convention about what is proper hinders expression of the true self, and this may be a reason why things come out angrily or harshly, at least in my case. Even those in positions of power need compassion from us, as well as for us to exercise sradda. The more sradda we exercise, the less our Mother will need to do for us She might at times benefit from our work... Ammachi , " n2amma " <a1driane wrote: > > There are many things here about anger. First of all, we cannot > compare Christ and Amma's anger to our own. These being are avatars, > enlightened and EVERY act that they perform is with an intent and > purpose. When they display anger, it is not because they have " lost > control " rather it is to guide the devotee or disciple. Their anger > is one of raising spiritual awareness. There are countless stories of > gurus acting aloof, angry or whatever human emotion exists but > beneath the surface-they have pure mental peace and bliss. This is > where we are so very different. They are in complete union with > creation being the creators. > > On the other hand, compared to Amma and Christ, when we are angry, it > is usually because we are losing control. At the same time, I do not > believe in allowing the abuser to continue abuse. I consider that in > so doing, it is actually abusive to them as well and those around > them. Boundaries and safety and compliance with social standards are > critical. But there is a WAY to deal with conflict without losing our > own mental peace. I am a work in progress. > > I probably should point out that when I had a guy in our class who > was verbally abusive, one lady in the class spoke to him about it > without my knowledge. I tried to talk with him but he continued his > rudeness so I dropped it with him. Instead I called in a third party- > the union-who spoke in general terms to the entire group about > workplace violence. Apparently that was all he needed to hear. At the > same time, I remained kind to him. I dealt with the issue because who > would he attack next? I felt it was in the interest of all to address > this. > > But think about how many of us get angry on a daily basis about > trivial matters? Amma says > > " If anger arises in you, do not express it immediately. Leave the > place. Go and sit somewhere by yourself. Contemplate and meditate. > You will find that the cause of your anger is not in the other person > but within you. It is not the other person that causes it, but your > past. The past is your reference book. Anger is within you. Someone > accidentally touches the anger in you, and you erupt. " > > Now I don't think she means just walk away if someone is hurting > another person physically or someone is in danger. So we need to also > use discrimination in determining what is intended by Amma. > > Regarding the other person that we are angry at: > " Do not make him experience more pain by pressing and squeezing > harder and harder. This means that we should not return anger. By > getting angry with a person who is angry with us, we are not treating > the wound but making it bigger and bigger and deeper. Take pity on > him and soothe his wound of anger. Chidren, once again, Mother wants > to remind you that this is an opportunity. Mother knows very well > that is it quite natural to have conflicts and arguments when we are > in a group. None of you are Self Realized; therefore, disagreements > among you can happen. But try to practice love and patience. " > > Amma's big fat baby, > adriane > > Ammachi , " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61@> wrote: > > > > I am thinking along the lines of anger that arises in response to > > injustice, and channeling that energy into compassion rather than > > allowing it to injure. The example I gave of the fig tree and Jesus, > > however, though I have read different interpretations of it, I > > appreciate that story because it allows Jesus to be human, to have > had > > a lapse, to not have recognized the power of his thought to cause > > harm. Also, his overturning of the tables in the temple; he was > angry. > > I would still like to know whether Amma has ever shared stories of > > being overcome by her own emotions, and whether she has experienced > > anger, and if so, how, when, at what did it arise, and what did she > do > > with it, or about it, if anything. Did she accept it, acknowledge > it, > > let it go, etc. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 dear sister your brother suggest that you read AMMAs bio.and also it is all based upon each individuals faith.you are free to believe that JESUS had an emotional lapse if that works for just as someone elseis free to believe that the MAHATMAS AND AVATARS only 'appear' to display human emotions.it is all based upon each of our dispositions and our faith.AMMA says that SHE respects everyone's freedom...we should contemplate and ask ourselves is how we are seeing what we are seeing helping us to become more compassionate towards others.are tmba's perceptions feeding his heart or his ego? if seeing JESUS as one who displayed his humanity through emotional lapses helps to moisten your heart and keep it open then that is a healthy way to see it.as AMMAs temba suggested ,please read AMMAs bio. thankyou dear sister,may we all realize in each moment that we are much to blessed to be stressed.. > " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61 >Ammachi >Ammachi > Re: Loving people who " do evil... " >Mon, 28 May 2007 07:25:48 -0000 > >I am thinking along the lines of anger that arises in response to >injustice, and channeling that energy into compassion rather than >allowing it to injure. The example I gave of the fig tree and Jesus, >however, though I have read different interpretations of it, I >appreciate that story because it allows Jesus to be human, to have had >a lapse, to not have recognized the power of his thought to cause >harm. Also, his overturning of the tables in the temple; he was angry. >I would still like to know whether Amma has ever shared stories of >being overcome by her own emotions, and whether she has experienced >anger, and if so, how, when, at what did it arise, and what did she do >with it, or about it, if anything. Did she accept it, acknowledge it, >let it go, etc. > >In Nonviolent Communication, and also in some other works I have read >recently, specifically The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner, anger is >considered to be a signal that that there is a need that is being >overlooked. To " stop " the anger, one must discover the need and >address it. I am realizing that my work now is to learn to strengthen > my ability to recognize a need when any strong emotion arises, and >to be compassionate toward myself, or toward whomever is experiencing >that intensity of emotion, so that I can guide the energy in the >direction of love rather than allow it to spiral toward or in anger. >And Amma's example does inspire and inform me greatly. > >Thank you again for sharing. > > >Ammachi , " temba spirits " <tembaspirits wrote: > > > > dear beloved sister,this is quot is what HER grace pulled into my >spirit > > when tmba read your most precious words. > > > > " Rama,Krishna,and Jesus were all-powerful, all-pervading,and > > all-knowing.When you say that Krinna killed,you are forgetting that >, He > > also gave life.Do you recall how He brought Arjuna's grandson back >to life? > > The child was born dead,but Krisna gave the child life.It was the same > > Krisna who bestowed the ultimate fulfillment of human >birth,emancipation,on > > the hunter whose arrow killed Krisna's body.It is said that the >people who > > were killed by HIM were all freed eternally from the cycle of birth and > > death. " > > " When you kill or destroy someone or something,you only lengthen >the chain > > of your own karma. > > It is your destructive mind-your anger,hatred,selfishness or greed-that > > causes you to do such things. The anger or greed or selfishness in you > > persuades you to do evil,and that action adds to your existing >anger,greed > > and selfishness.It blows more air into the ballloon of your ego,and you > > become more puffed up.Each time you act selfishly or angrily or >greedily you > > are taking one more holiday,one more day of leave,from the state of > > perfection,from your eternal freedom. " > > " If you do not care how many births you take or how much you will >have to > > suffer,that is your choice.But you are harming other people.Not only by > > injuring or killing someone,but BY JUST FEELING ANGRY,JUST BY ACTING > > GREEDILY OR SELFISHLY TOWARDS OTHERS,YOU ARE TRIGGERING THE SAME >NEGATIVE > > FEELINGS IN THEM.your negative feelings will invoke the same negative > > feeliings as well.They to will suffer thereby adding to the >storehouse of > > their karma,and will be born again with additional vasanas that have >been > > accumulated.Thus through your anger or selfishness,you have >lengthened the > > chain of someone else's karma.You are responsible,since it happens >due to > > your anger and greed.This is th ekind of destruction that you do. " AMMA > > pg.172 Awaken children volume 6. > > > > " LIFE WILL 'BEAT YOU UP' UNTIL YOU LEARN YOUR LESSONS " AMMA pg.175 >vloume 6. > > > > " Prostration is a symbol of selfless surrender.The physical prostration > > becomes meaningful only when you surrender your ego at the feet of >the GURU > > or GOD..When you prostrate,you are inviting the GURU or GOD to >trample your > > ego.The GURU or GOD will not do that to an ordinary devotee,but they >will do > > it' RUTHLESSLY' to a true seeker. " AMMA pg.214 volume six. > > > > there is more dear sister. > > > > > > > > > " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61 > > >Ammachi > > >Ammachi > > > Re: Loving people who " do evil... " > > >Mon, 28 May 2007 02:58:51 -0000 > > > > > >Thank you for sharing that, Temba. I appreciate the window into your > > >world, and invite you to share more specifically if you would care to. > > > > > >As I posted what you replied to, I was recalling recently a Christian > > >friend becoming upset with my mentioning the poor grammar and violence > > >in the phrase: " The wages of sin is death, " a quote from the Bible. My > > >friend was offended by my criticism when I interpreted that phrase to > > >be using fear to control rather than love to guide. > > > > > >About punches, being on the receiving end, maybe not ducking in time, > > >or reflexively punching back, or even throwing the first punch in > > >reaction to something that seemed like a threat...I thought of the > > >stories of Jesus overturning the tables in the temple. Also, Jesus > > >withering the fig tree because it was not producing fruit when he > > >hungered. > > > > > >Are there any stories of Amma losing her temper, speaking harshly, > > >and/or acting in ways that others have said are not spiritual, > > >enlightened or evolved? I would feel heartened to read accounts in > > >which Amma herself has struggled with emotions. > > > > > >I have read Amma's own seeming defenses of gurus whose behavior or > > >words seemed harsh. Amma said that was because the observers did not > > >understand what the guru was intending, or where his words were coming > > >from, and Amma urges us not to judge, but to see the good in others. > > >Yet it is difficult when our own harshness arrives on the scene. > > > > > >Recently I received difficult to hear feedback in my training in > > >Nonviolent Communication - I'm not ready for certification yet, > > >basically, and in fact, despite over a year of training, I've truly > > >only just begun, and that became quite clear to me recently as I have > > >been under stress of change -- willing changes made in employment, but > > >stressful nonetheless, and finding myself reacting more and thinking > > >less before speaking > > > > > > > > >Ammachi , " temba spirits " <tembaspirits@> wrote: > > > > > > > > thankyou for sharing this dear sibling.this is what came to your > > >brother > > > > after he contemplated what your shared.LIFE can punch us in the face > > >in many > > > > ways.we can be punched emotionally,physically and even >spiritually.we > > > > probally all can relate to this. > > > > > > > > it is important to duck when the puch of life is thrown at us >and it is > > > > equally important to not throw any punches ourselves.if we are > > >punched by > > > > LIFE it is important to forgive and not return the punch. > > > > > > > > that has been a great challenge for AMMAs sun.it seems that those > > >punches of > > > > LIFE have become this childs greatest teachers.they have taught > > >temba to > > > > sympathize with how it feels and to have compassion for those >that feel > > > > overwelmed by the punch of life. > > > > > > > > it is true that we should raise our awareness and practice as much > > > > shrada(alertness) as possible ,but we should also do our best to >remain > > > > aware in how AMMA is teaching us and guiding us through the vehicle > > >of the > > > > inevitable PUNCH of LIFE..tmba prays that AMMA is pleased with what > > >he has > > > > shared. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61@> > > > > >Ammachi > > > > >Ammachi > > > > > Re: Loving people who " do evil... " > > > > >Mon, 28 May 2007 00:59:07 -0000 > > > > > > > > > >Dear Iswari, > > > > > > > > > >This is an interesting question and good point to bring up. > > > > > > > > > >A reason why Amma inspires me so much is that I don't >experience her > > > > >message of love and compassion as advocating the traditional way of > > > > >loving at the expense of the self. In a talk at one of her Los >Angeles > > > > >appearances a few years ago, Amma recommended we be aware of to >whom > > > > >we are speaking, otherwise possibly we might receive a punch in the > > > > >mouth! This was stated humorously, but was apt in terms of >recognizing > > > > >the limits or mindset of those we encounter, being mindful, and >taking > > > > >care. > > > > > > > > > >I posted this at AmmaBhakti but it seems apt to this thread so >I will > > > > >post it here, too: > > > > > > > > > >In Faith (the book), Sharon Salzberg talks about a spiritual >teacher > > > > >of hers who walked with his students into the marketplace > > > > >and stood bargaining with vendors. One of the students > > > > >questioned whether that was a very spiritual way to be, > > > > >bargaining with vendors in the marketplace. The teacher > > > > >answered: " Living a simple life does not mean being a > > > > >simpleton. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Ammachi , " ammasiswari " <ammasiswari@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Mary, I've been thinking a lot about this lately. Through >work with > > > > >my patients, I've had > > > > > > some practice loving people who have done some pretty >heinous evil > > > > >(e.g., murder, rape, > > > > > > sexual abuse of children). What trips me up, though, is how (or > > > > >whether it's even wise) to > > > > > > relate in a loving way to psychopathic individuals, who not only > > > > >lack the ability to > > > > > > empathize with others, but use and twist others' empathy for >them > > > > >and attempts to help > > > > > > them into furthering their own evil/harmful desires (there >is some > > > > >truth to the adage that > > > > > > trying to help a psychopath just helps create a better >psychopath). > > > > >Granted, this is a tiny, > > > > > > tiny, tiny percentage of the people in this world, but I feel > > > > >stumped in how to relate to > > > > > > them in a way that is aligned with my spiritual path, but >that is > > > > >not inadvertently > > > > > > detrimental. I like to believe that there is hope for all of >us, but > > > > >sometimes that's hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also pondering, > > > > > > Iswari > > > > > > > > > > > > Ammachi , " Mary E " <francesthompson0@> >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is so cool! I have been pondering the existence of >people who > > > > >do evil and how does > > > > > > > one go about loving them (or even just not feeling anger >towards > > > > >them)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > > > PC Magazine's 2007 editors' choice for best Web mail—award-winning > > >Windows > > > > Live Hotmail. > > > > > > > >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_H\ M_mini_pcmag_0507 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > More photos, more messages, more storage—get 2GB with Windows Live >Hotmail. > > >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_H\ M_mini_2G_0507 > > > > _______________ PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM\ _mini_pcmag_0507 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2007 Report Share Posted May 28, 2007 Hi Temba, It does help me to recognize the humanity of others, gurus and just plain folks alike. I have been reading Deepak Chopra's book Life After Death, and the descriptions in the book, many of which he credits to the rishis, indicate that it may be true for each and every one of us that our emotions only appear as they do because of what others project onto what they see, as well as that our expressions are generated by what we are projecting onto what we see in others. Humanity is quite an interconnected web much more than that which meets the eye, for sure! Ammachi , " temba spirits " <tembaspirits wrote: > > dear sister your brother suggest that you read AMMAs bio.and also it is all > based upon each individuals faith.you are free to believe that JESUS had an > emotional lapse if that works for just as someone elseis free to believe > that the MAHATMAS AND AVATARS only 'appear' to display human emotions.it is > all based upon each of our dispositions and our faith.AMMA says that SHE > respects everyone's freedom...we should contemplate and ask ourselves is how > we are seeing what we are seeing helping us to become more compassionate > towards others.are tmba's perceptions feeding his heart or his ego? > > if seeing JESUS as one who displayed his humanity through emotional lapses > helps to moisten your heart and keep it open then that is a healthy way to > see it.as AMMAs temba suggested ,please read AMMAs bio. > > thankyou dear sister,may we all realize in each moment that we are much to > blessed to be stressed.. > > > > " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61 > >Ammachi > >Ammachi > > Re: Loving people who " do evil... " > >Mon, 28 May 2007 07:25:48 -0000 > > > >I am thinking along the lines of anger that arises in response to > >injustice, and channeling that energy into compassion rather than > >allowing it to injure. The example I gave of the fig tree and Jesus, > >however, though I have read different interpretations of it, I > >appreciate that story because it allows Jesus to be human, to have had > >a lapse, to not have recognized the power of his thought to cause > >harm. Also, his overturning of the tables in the temple; he was angry. > >I would still like to know whether Amma has ever shared stories of > >being overcome by her own emotions, and whether she has experienced > >anger, and if so, how, when, at what did it arise, and what did she do > >with it, or about it, if anything. Did she accept it, acknowledge it, > >let it go, etc. > > > >In Nonviolent Communication, and also in some other works I have read > >recently, specifically The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner, anger is > >considered to be a signal that that there is a need that is being > >overlooked. To " stop " the anger, one must discover the need and > >address it. I am realizing that my work now is to learn to strengthen > > my ability to recognize a need when any strong emotion arises, and > >to be compassionate toward myself, or toward whomever is experiencing > >that intensity of emotion, so that I can guide the energy in the > >direction of love rather than allow it to spiral toward or in anger. > >And Amma's example does inspire and inform me greatly. > > > >Thank you again for sharing. > > > > > >Ammachi , " temba spirits " <tembaspirits@> wrote: > > > > > > dear beloved sister,this is quot is what HER grace pulled into my > >spirit > > > when tmba read your most precious words. > > > > > > " Rama,Krishna,and Jesus were all-powerful, all-pervading,and > > > all-knowing.When you say that Krinna killed,you are forgetting that > >, He > > > also gave life.Do you recall how He brought Arjuna's grandson back > >to life? > > > The child was born dead,but Krisna gave the child life.It was the same > > > Krisna who bestowed the ultimate fulfillment of human > >birth,emancipation,on > > > the hunter whose arrow killed Krisna's body.It is said that the > >people who > > > were killed by HIM were all freed eternally from the cycle of birth and > > > death. " > > > " When you kill or destroy someone or something,you only lengthen > >the chain > > > of your own karma. > > > It is your destructive mind-your anger,hatred,selfishness or greed-that > > > causes you to do such things. The anger or greed or selfishness in you > > > persuades you to do evil,and that action adds to your existing > >anger,greed > > > and selfishness.It blows more air into the ballloon of your ego,and you > > > become more puffed up.Each time you act selfishly or angrily or > >greedily you > > > are taking one more holiday,one more day of leave,from the state of > > > perfection,from your eternal freedom. " > > > " If you do not care how many births you take or how much you will > >have to > > > suffer,that is your choice.But you are harming other people.Not only by > > > injuring or killing someone,but BY JUST FEELING ANGRY,JUST BY ACTING > > > GREEDILY OR SELFISHLY TOWARDS OTHERS,YOU ARE TRIGGERING THE SAME > >NEGATIVE > > > FEELINGS IN THEM.your negative feelings will invoke the same negative > > > feeliings as well.They to will suffer thereby adding to the > >storehouse of > > > their karma,and will be born again with additional vasanas that have > >been > > > accumulated.Thus through your anger or selfishness,you have > >lengthened the > > > chain of someone else's karma.You are responsible,since it happens > >due to > > > your anger and greed.This is th ekind of destruction that you do. " AMMA > > > pg.172 Awaken children volume 6. > > > > > > " LIFE WILL 'BEAT YOU UP' UNTIL YOU LEARN YOUR LESSONS " AMMA pg.175 > >vloume 6. > > > > > > " Prostration is a symbol of selfless surrender.The physical prostration > > > becomes meaningful only when you surrender your ego at the feet of > >the GURU > > > or GOD..When you prostrate,you are inviting the GURU or GOD to > >trample your > > > ego.The GURU or GOD will not do that to an ordinary devotee,but they > >will do > > > it' RUTHLESSLY' to a true seeker. " AMMA pg.214 volume six. > > > > > > there is more dear sister. > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61@> > > > >Ammachi > > > >Ammachi > > > > Re: Loving people who " do evil... " > > > >Mon, 28 May 2007 02:58:51 -0000 > > > > > > > >Thank you for sharing that, Temba. I appreciate the window into your > > > >world, and invite you to share more specifically if you would care to. > > > > > > > >As I posted what you replied to, I was recalling recently a Christian > > > >friend becoming upset with my mentioning the poor grammar and violence > > > >in the phrase: " The wages of sin is death, " a quote from the Bible. My > > > >friend was offended by my criticism when I interpreted that phrase to > > > >be using fear to control rather than love to guide. > > > > > > > >About punches, being on the receiving end, maybe not ducking in time, > > > >or reflexively punching back, or even throwing the first punch in > > > >reaction to something that seemed like a threat...I thought of the > > > >stories of Jesus overturning the tables in the temple. Also, Jesus > > > >withering the fig tree because it was not producing fruit when he > > > >hungered. > > > > > > > >Are there any stories of Amma losing her temper, speaking harshly, > > > >and/or acting in ways that others have said are not spiritual, > > > >enlightened or evolved? I would feel heartened to read accounts in > > > >which Amma herself has struggled with emotions. > > > > > > > >I have read Amma's own seeming defenses of gurus whose behavior or > > > >words seemed harsh. Amma said that was because the observers did not > > > >understand what the guru was intending, or where his words were coming > > > >from, and Amma urges us not to judge, but to see the good in others. > > > >Yet it is difficult when our own harshness arrives on the scene. > > > > > > > >Recently I received difficult to hear feedback in my training in > > > >Nonviolent Communication - I'm not ready for certification yet, > > > >basically, and in fact, despite over a year of training, I've truly > > > >only just begun, and that became quite clear to me recently as I have > > > >been under stress of change -- willing changes made in employment, but > > > >stressful nonetheless, and finding myself reacting more and thinking > > > >less before speaking > > > > > > > > > > > >Ammachi , " temba spirits " <tembaspirits@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > thankyou for sharing this dear sibling.this is what came to your > > > >brother > > > > > after he contemplated what your shared.LIFE can punch us in the face > > > >in many > > > > > ways.we can be punched emotionally,physically and even > >spiritually.we > > > > > probally all can relate to this. > > > > > > > > > > it is important to duck when the puch of life is thrown at us > >and it is > > > > > equally important to not throw any punches ourselves.if we are > > > >punched by > > > > > LIFE it is important to forgive and not return the punch. > > > > > > > > > > that has been a great challenge for AMMAs sun.it seems that those > > > >punches of > > > > > LIFE have become this childs greatest teachers.they have taught > > > >temba to > > > > > sympathize with how it feels and to have compassion for those > >that feel > > > > > overwelmed by the punch of life. > > > > > > > > > > it is true that we should raise our awareness and practice as much > > > > > shrada(alertness) as possible ,but we should also do our best to > >remain > > > > > aware in how AMMA is teaching us and guiding us through the vehicle > > > >of the > > > > > inevitable PUNCH of LIFE..tmba prays that AMMA is pleased with what > > > >he has > > > > > shared. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61@> > > > > > >Ammachi > > > > > >Ammachi > > > > > > Re: Loving people who " do evil... " > > > > > >Mon, 28 May 2007 00:59:07 -0000 > > > > > > > > > > > >Dear Iswari, > > > > > > > > > > > >This is an interesting question and good point to bring up. > > > > > > > > > > > >A reason why Amma inspires me so much is that I don't > >experience her > > > > > >message of love and compassion as advocating the traditional way of > > > > > >loving at the expense of the self. In a talk at one of her Los > >Angeles > > > > > >appearances a few years ago, Amma recommended we be aware of to > >whom > > > > > >we are speaking, otherwise possibly we might receive a punch in the > > > > > >mouth! This was stated humorously, but was apt in terms of > >recognizing > > > > > >the limits or mindset of those we encounter, being mindful, and > >taking > > > > > >care. > > > > > > > > > > > >I posted this at AmmaBhakti but it seems apt to this thread so > >I will > > > > > >post it here, too: > > > > > > > > > > > >In Faith (the book), Sharon Salzberg talks about a spiritual > >teacher > > > > > >of hers who walked with his students into the marketplace > > > > > >and stood bargaining with vendors. One of the students > > > > > >questioned whether that was a very spiritual way to be, > > > > > >bargaining with vendors in the marketplace. The teacher > > > > > >answered: " Living a simple life does not mean being a > > > > > >simpleton. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Ammachi , " ammasiswari " <ammasiswari@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mary, I've been thinking a lot about this lately. Through > >work with > > > > > >my patients, I've had > > > > > > > some practice loving people who have done some pretty > >heinous evil > > > > > >(e.g., murder, rape, > > > > > > > sexual abuse of children). What trips me up, though, is how (or > > > > > >whether it's even wise) to > > > > > > > relate in a loving way to psychopathic individuals, who not only > > > > > >lack the ability to > > > > > > > empathize with others, but use and twist others' empathy for > >them > > > > > >and attempts to help > > > > > > > them into furthering their own evil/harmful desires (there > >is some > > > > > >truth to the adage that > > > > > > > trying to help a psychopath just helps create a better > >psychopath). > > > > > >Granted, this is a tiny, > > > > > > > tiny, tiny percentage of the people in this world, but I feel > > > > > >stumped in how to relate to > > > > > > > them in a way that is aligned with my spiritual path, but > >that is > > > > > >not inadvertently > > > > > > > detrimental. I like to believe that there is hope for all of > >us, but > > > > > >sometimes that's hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also pondering, > > > > > > > Iswari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ammachi , " Mary E " <francesthompson0@> > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is so cool! I have been pondering the existence of > >people who > > > > > >do evil and how does > > > > > > > > one go about loving them (or even just not feeling anger > >towards > > > > > >them)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > > > > PC Magazine's 2007 editors' choice for best Web mail—award-winning > > > >Windows > > > > > Live Hotmail. > > > > > > > > > > >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_H\ M_mini_pcmag_0507 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > > More photos, more messages, more storage—get 2GB with Windows Live > >Hotmail. > > > > >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_H\ M_mini_2G_0507 > > > > > > > > > _______________ > PC Magazine's 2007 editors' choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows > Live Hotmail. > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM\ _mini_pcmag_0507 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2007 Report Share Posted May 29, 2007 it is so refreshing that you are willing to dig and search for more answers.in the bible JESUS said that GOD'S sun shined on the evil and the good and that GOD's rain rained on the just and unjust.JESUS went on to say that " what good is it to only love that which you already love. " He said that if we wanted to be perfect as HIS FATHER that we would follow the examples of nature.this can be found in the book of mathew chapter 5 in the bible.AMMA says that same thing differently. if we look at the simplicity of how nature loves, all the things that don't " meet the eye " ,meet the HEART.we are not typically aware of how much the air that we breathe is loving us and sustaining us.that same air is unconditonal as it provides LIFE for the saint,the murderer,the sage and the suffering.the earth ,the sun,the stars,the trees,gravity,the ozone layer etc. all selflessly love us all in the same way.these examples are simple ,it is our minds that complicate them. AMMAs sun hopes he has served his sister effectively with these words and he prays that our beloved AMMA is pleased. > " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61 >Ammachi >Ammachi > Re: Loving people who " do evil... " >Mon, 28 May 2007 16:58:37 -0000 > >Hi Temba, > >It does help me to recognize the humanity of others, gurus and just >plain folks alike. I have been reading Deepak Chopra's book Life After >Death, and the descriptions in the book, many of which he credits to >the rishis, indicate that it may be true for each and every one of us >that our emotions only appear as they do because of what others >project onto what they see, as well as that our expressions are >generated by what we are projecting onto what we see in others. >Humanity is quite an interconnected web much more than that which >meets the eye, for sure! > > > >Ammachi , " temba spirits " <tembaspirits wrote: > > > > dear sister your brother suggest that you read AMMAs bio.and also it >is all > > based upon each individuals faith.you are free to believe that JESUS >had an > > emotional lapse if that works for just as someone elseis free to >believe > > that the MAHATMAS AND AVATARS only 'appear' to display human >emotions.it is > > all based upon each of our dispositions and our faith.AMMA says that >SHE > > respects everyone's freedom...we should contemplate and ask >ourselves is how > > we are seeing what we are seeing helping us to become more >compassionate > > towards others.are tmba's perceptions feeding his heart or his ego? > > > > if seeing JESUS as one who displayed his humanity through emotional >lapses > > helps to moisten your heart and keep it open then that is a healthy >way to > > see it.as AMMAs temba suggested ,please read AMMAs bio. > > > > thankyou dear sister,may we all realize in each moment that we are >much to > > blessed to be stressed.. > > > > > > > " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61 > > >Ammachi > > >Ammachi > > > Re: Loving people who " do evil... " > > >Mon, 28 May 2007 07:25:48 -0000 > > > > > >I am thinking along the lines of anger that arises in response to > > >injustice, and channeling that energy into compassion rather than > > >allowing it to injure. The example I gave of the fig tree and Jesus, > > >however, though I have read different interpretations of it, I > > >appreciate that story because it allows Jesus to be human, to have had > > >a lapse, to not have recognized the power of his thought to cause > > >harm. Also, his overturning of the tables in the temple; he was angry. > > >I would still like to know whether Amma has ever shared stories of > > >being overcome by her own emotions, and whether she has experienced > > >anger, and if so, how, when, at what did it arise, and what did she do > > >with it, or about it, if anything. Did she accept it, acknowledge it, > > >let it go, etc. > > > > > >In Nonviolent Communication, and also in some other works I have read > > >recently, specifically The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner, anger is > > >considered to be a signal that that there is a need that is being > > >overlooked. To " stop " the anger, one must discover the need and > > >address it. I am realizing that my work now is to learn to strengthen > > > my ability to recognize a need when any strong emotion arises, and > > >to be compassionate toward myself, or toward whomever is experiencing > > >that intensity of emotion, so that I can guide the energy in the > > >direction of love rather than allow it to spiral toward or in anger. > > >And Amma's example does inspire and inform me greatly. > > > > > >Thank you again for sharing. > > > > > > > > >Ammachi , " temba spirits " <tembaspirits@> wrote: > > > > > > > > dear beloved sister,this is quot is what HER grace pulled into my > > >spirit > > > > when tmba read your most precious words. > > > > > > > > " Rama,Krishna,and Jesus were all-powerful, all-pervading,and > > > > all-knowing.When you say that Krinna killed,you are forgetting that > > >, He > > > > also gave life.Do you recall how He brought Arjuna's grandson back > > >to life? > > > > The child was born dead,but Krisna gave the child life.It was >the same > > > > Krisna who bestowed the ultimate fulfillment of human > > >birth,emancipation,on > > > > the hunter whose arrow killed Krisna's body.It is said that the > > >people who > > > > were killed by HIM were all freed eternally from the cycle of >birth and > > > > death. " > > > > " When you kill or destroy someone or something,you only lengthen > > >the chain > > > > of your own karma. > > > > It is your destructive mind-your anger,hatred,selfishness or >greed-that > > > > causes you to do such things. The anger or greed or selfishness >in you > > > > persuades you to do evil,and that action adds to your existing > > >anger,greed > > > > and selfishness.It blows more air into the ballloon of your >ego,and you > > > > become more puffed up.Each time you act selfishly or angrily or > > >greedily you > > > > are taking one more holiday,one more day of leave,from the state of > > > > perfection,from your eternal freedom. " > > > > " If you do not care how many births you take or how much you will > > >have to > > > > suffer,that is your choice.But you are harming other people.Not >only by > > > > injuring or killing someone,but BY JUST FEELING ANGRY,JUST BY ACTING > > > > GREEDILY OR SELFISHLY TOWARDS OTHERS,YOU ARE TRIGGERING THE SAME > > >NEGATIVE > > > > FEELINGS IN THEM.your negative feelings will invoke the same >negative > > > > feeliings as well.They to will suffer thereby adding to the > > >storehouse of > > > > their karma,and will be born again with additional vasanas that have > > >been > > > > accumulated.Thus through your anger or selfishness,you have > > >lengthened the > > > > chain of someone else's karma.You are responsible,since it happens > > >due to > > > > your anger and greed.This is th ekind of destruction that you >do. " AMMA > > > > pg.172 Awaken children volume 6. > > > > > > > > " LIFE WILL 'BEAT YOU UP' UNTIL YOU LEARN YOUR LESSONS " AMMA pg.175 > > >vloume 6. > > > > > > > > " Prostration is a symbol of selfless surrender.The physical >prostration > > > > becomes meaningful only when you surrender your ego at the feet of > > >the GURU > > > > or GOD..When you prostrate,you are inviting the GURU or GOD to > > >trample your > > > > ego.The GURU or GOD will not do that to an ordinary devotee,but they > > >will do > > > > it' RUTHLESSLY' to a true seeker. " AMMA pg.214 volume six. > > > > > > > > there is more dear sister. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61@> > > > > >Ammachi > > > > >Ammachi > > > > > Re: Loving people who " do evil... " > > > > >Mon, 28 May 2007 02:58:51 -0000 > > > > > > > > > >Thank you for sharing that, Temba. I appreciate the window into >your > > > > >world, and invite you to share more specifically if you would >care to. > > > > > > > > > >As I posted what you replied to, I was recalling recently a >Christian > > > > >friend becoming upset with my mentioning the poor grammar and >violence > > > > >in the phrase: " The wages of sin is death, " a quote from the >Bible. My > > > > >friend was offended by my criticism when I interpreted that >phrase to > > > > >be using fear to control rather than love to guide. > > > > > > > > > >About punches, being on the receiving end, maybe not ducking in >time, > > > > >or reflexively punching back, or even throwing the first punch in > > > > >reaction to something that seemed like a threat...I thought of the > > > > >stories of Jesus overturning the tables in the temple. Also, Jesus > > > > >withering the fig tree because it was not producing fruit when he > > > > >hungered. > > > > > > > > > >Are there any stories of Amma losing her temper, speaking harshly, > > > > >and/or acting in ways that others have said are not spiritual, > > > > >enlightened or evolved? I would feel heartened to read accounts in > > > > >which Amma herself has struggled with emotions. > > > > > > > > > >I have read Amma's own seeming defenses of gurus whose behavior or > > > > >words seemed harsh. Amma said that was because the observers >did not > > > > >understand what the guru was intending, or where his words were >coming > > > > >from, and Amma urges us not to judge, but to see the good in >others. > > > > >Yet it is difficult when our own harshness arrives on the scene. > > > > > > > > > >Recently I received difficult to hear feedback in my training in > > > > >Nonviolent Communication - I'm not ready for certification yet, > > > > >basically, and in fact, despite over a year of training, I've truly > > > > >only just begun, and that became quite clear to me recently as >I have > > > > >been under stress of change -- willing changes made in >employment, but > > > > >stressful nonetheless, and finding myself reacting more and >thinking > > > > >less before speaking > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Ammachi , " temba spirits " <tembaspirits@> >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > thankyou for sharing this dear sibling.this is what came to your > > > > >brother > > > > > > after he contemplated what your shared.LIFE can punch us in >the face > > > > >in many > > > > > > ways.we can be punched emotionally,physically and even > > >spiritually.we > > > > > > probally all can relate to this. > > > > > > > > > > > > it is important to duck when the puch of life is thrown at us > > >and it is > > > > > > equally important to not throw any punches ourselves.if we are > > > > >punched by > > > > > > LIFE it is important to forgive and not return the punch. > > > > > > > > > > > > that has been a great challenge for AMMAs sun.it seems that >those > > > > >punches of > > > > > > LIFE have become this childs greatest teachers.they have taught > > > > >temba to > > > > > > sympathize with how it feels and to have compassion for those > > >that feel > > > > > > overwelmed by the punch of life. > > > > > > > > > > > > it is true that we should raise our awareness and practice >as much > > > > > > shrada(alertness) as possible ,but we should also do our best to > > >remain > > > > > > aware in how AMMA is teaching us and guiding us through the >vehicle > > > > >of the > > > > > > inevitable PUNCH of LIFE..tmba prays that AMMA is pleased >with what > > > > >he has > > > > > > shared. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Mary Ann " <buttercookie61@> > > > > > > >Ammachi > > > > > > >Ammachi > > > > > > > Re: Loving people who " do evil... " > > > > > > >Mon, 28 May 2007 00:59:07 -0000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Dear Iswari, > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This is an interesting question and good point to bring up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >A reason why Amma inspires me so much is that I don't > > >experience her > > > > > > >message of love and compassion as advocating the >traditional way of > > > > > > >loving at the expense of the self. In a talk at one of her Los > > >Angeles > > > > > > >appearances a few years ago, Amma recommended we be aware of to > > >whom > > > > > > >we are speaking, otherwise possibly we might receive a >punch in the > > > > > > >mouth! This was stated humorously, but was apt in terms of > > >recognizing > > > > > > >the limits or mindset of those we encounter, being mindful, and > > >taking > > > > > > >care. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I posted this at AmmaBhakti but it seems apt to this thread so > > >I will > > > > > > >post it here, too: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >In Faith (the book), Sharon Salzberg talks about a spiritual > > >teacher > > > > > > >of hers who walked with his students into the marketplace > > > > > > >and stood bargaining with vendors. One of the students > > > > > > >questioned whether that was a very spiritual way to be, > > > > > > >bargaining with vendors in the marketplace. The teacher > > > > > > >answered: " Living a simple life does not mean being a > > > > > > >simpleton. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Ammachi , " ammasiswari " ><ammasiswari@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mary, I've been thinking a lot about this lately. Through > > >work with > > > > > > >my patients, I've had > > > > > > > > some practice loving people who have done some pretty > > >heinous evil > > > > > > >(e.g., murder, rape, > > > > > > > > sexual abuse of children). What trips me up, though, is >how (or > > > > > > >whether it's even wise) to > > > > > > > > relate in a loving way to psychopathic individuals, who >not only > > > > > > >lack the ability to > > > > > > > > empathize with others, but use and twist others' empathy for > > >them > > > > > > >and attempts to help > > > > > > > > them into furthering their own evil/harmful desires (there > > >is some > > > > > > >truth to the adage that > > > > > > > > trying to help a psychopath just helps create a better > > >psychopath). > > > > > > >Granted, this is a tiny, > > > > > > > > tiny, tiny percentage of the people in this world, but I >feel > > > > > > >stumped in how to relate to > > > > > > > > them in a way that is aligned with my spiritual path, but > > >that is > > > > > > >not inadvertently > > > > > > > > detrimental. I like to believe that there is hope for all of > > >us, but > > > > > > >sometimes that's hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also pondering, > > > > > > > > Iswari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ammachi , " Mary E " <francesthompson0@> > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is so cool! I have been pondering the existence of > > >people who > > > > > > >do evil and how does > > > > > > > > > one go about loving them (or even just not feeling anger > > >towards > > > > > > >them)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________ > > > > > > PC Magazine's 2007 editors' choice for best Web >mail—award-winning > > > > >Windows > > > > > > Live Hotmail. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_H\ M_mini_pcmag_0507 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > > > More photos, more messages, more storage—get 2GB with Windows Live > > >Hotmail. > > > > > > > >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_H\ M_mini_2G_0507 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > PC Magazine's 2007 editors' choice for best Web mail—award-winning >Windows > > Live Hotmail. > > >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_H\ M_mini_pcmag_0507 > > > > _______________ PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM\ _mini_pcmag_0507 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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