Guest guest Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 The Vedas talk of Beeja alphabets such as Phat. Ganesha adharva sirshyam,prayer to Ganesha found in later Vedic literature mentions Lam as the Bijakshara connected with Ganesha. Hala in his Gadha saptasati talks of 'Nava kapalika'. He also talks of om Uddulana ritual which is later described at length by Lakulisa in his Lakulisa pasupati sutra. Shortly after that, Gaudapada has created a good amount of information on Tantra. 5th and 6th c. inscriptions mention the verses eulogizing Durga, such as Udaypur inscription and Dadhamati inscription. By 7th C. Tantra has developed to great heights and Adi Sankara has prohibited many of the Ksudra practices in Tantra to improvise it. More later after hearing from the group, Kishore patnaik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Dear Sir, I have found the genital organ on the chest of the Lakulisa sculptures. Can you tell me the story behind that. నమసà±à°•à°¾à°°à°®à±à°²à±,PN Subramanian++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Please visit my Indian History related blogs at:http://paliakara.blogspot.com (English)http://mallar.wordpress.com (Hindi) From: kishorepatnaik09Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 15:48:17 +0000 Antiquity of TantraThe Vedas talk of Beeja alphabets such as Phat. Ganesha adharvasirshyam,prayer to Ganesha found in later Vedic literature mentionsLam as the Bijakshara connected with Ganesha. Hala in his Gadha saptasati talks of 'Nava kapalika'. He also talks ofom Uddulana ritual which is later described at length by Lakulisa inhis Lakulisa pasupati sutra. Shortly after that, Gaudapada has created a good amount of informationon Tantra. 5th and 6th c. inscriptions mention the verses eulogizingDurga, such as Udaypur inscription and Dadhamati inscription. By 7th C. Tantra has developed to great heights and Adi Sankara hasprohibited many of the Ksudra practices in Tantra to improvise it. More later after hearing from the group, Kishore patnaik Make sure your wardrobe reflects the latest trends and styles in the world of fashion. Try it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 "The Vedas talk of Beeja alphabets such as Phat. "Aditi or Bhuvaneswari beeja that has different names like Lajja, Hrillekha, Bhuvaneswari, Mahamaya appears in the early Riks itself - for instance in Purusha Sukta (hreesca te lakshmeesca patnyau). "Ganesha adharva sirshyam,prayer to Ganesha found in later Vedic literature mentions Lam as the Bijakshara connected with Ganesha. ""Gam" - may be a typo Ga is first of Ganas (Ga, ka etc are Ganas in alphabet and Ga is the consonant that originates from the deepest portion of the mouth) and is called Ganaadi. Varnaadi is "a". Anusvaara or visarga end most of the beejas. Thus Gam is formed with the leaders of Ganas and therefore is Ganapati. This is how mantra sastra forms basis for theology. In general each devata's tatva is defined by the major beejas of the mula mantra/vidya. Whether the Devata is a pleasant or angry form, how many hands or legs or heads or weapons are there in the description, what are the benefits in worship, all this is determined by the same. Language and mantra sastra are closely related. Syllables or word-roots are representatives of natural phenomena. Mantra Beejas are composed by the same principle and that is how the qualities of Devata are determined by the beejas. For instance the vidyas having maya beeja as the central one are pleasant and smiling forms (Ex. Lalita, Bhuvaneswari). The vidyas having krodha (hum) are angry or ferocious forms. The various natural phenomena like happiness and auspiciousness (sreem, central in Kamalatmika/Sri), anger (hum, central in Chinnamasta), smoke (dhuum central in Dhumavati), fire (agni - ram), desire (kleem, central in Sri Krishna and Bala vidyas) form central letters of the vidyas. For the same reason alphabet is referred to in multiple ways in the description of Gods - Kali wearing 51 skulls, 64 yogini Ganas worshiping the Mother, seven Matrikas and so on. These "beejas" are found in common usage, not only in sanskrit but in regional languages too: one is said to make a "humkara" when angry, "Sri" is used as a sign of noble, and so on. However we cannot say that this developed along with the development or formalization of language, because study of beejas and mantra sastra has to do with syllables and not really a formal language or grammar. And Veda itself expounds a well developed Mantra Sastra, which is much prior to the formalized grammar. Tantras relate themselves closely to Atharva Veda, with explicit and implicit references. Tantra was a general term used to refer to any school/methodology and was not a specific kind of text as we refer to it today. The application part of worship was practiced as a "tantra". In case of Vaishnava Agamas they are not even treated as a separate school of practices from the Vedic. Early references to Pancaratras (Narada) could be found in the Mahabharata itself. They deal with many vidyas, of vedic devatas and their derivatives. The current shape of Tantra texts evolved in multiple stages. A possible sequence: 1 basic mantra sastra and theology - even this is evolutionary but this is the early basis for all other portions of the text 2 putting it in a formal guru-sishya parampara, diksha and so on 3 formulation of temple and individual worship 4 summary of theology, evolving a spiritual philosophy - this is developed to some extent on the base of Vedanta. 5 formulating a world view or a darsana around the practices - this developed with Tantric darsanas such as Nakuleesa Pasupata, Raseswara, Pratyabhijna. The evidence available on Tantra is much smaller compared to what is visible on the Vedic literature. This is because a whole civilization is centered around the latter while Tantra is upasana-specific. Its evolution can be studied through the evolution of the text itself: the way the early male forms like Virocana have later become to be worshiped in female forms like Vairocani, the development of Yoga Sastra and the way early references to yoga transformed into the later well developed and systematic explanation of different forms of Yoga - Laya, Mantra, Kundalini, Hatha. If one draws a parallel of development between Tantra and Puranic literataure, this will be easier. For example Devi Mahatmya and Lalita Upakhyana of Markandeya and Brahmanda Puranas are in sequence of evolution. And so are Candi and Sri Vidya of Tantra. The latter is popularized by Adi Sankara. So while the Tantras as they appear today could have formed between 1-10th centuries, having a "Tantra" and following it must be much older. In fact one can see a parallel between Tantras and the Vedic texts that deal with procedures and methods - like Brahmanas and Kalpa Sutras, compilations like Mahanyasa. PS: I am currently preparing an article on mantra sastra but did not post as it is not relevant to the group. I can if you want. Kishore patnaik <kishorepatnaik09 Sent: Sunday, January 4, 2009 9:18:17 PM Antiquity of Tantra The Vedas talk of Beeja alphabets such as Phat. Ganesha adharva sirshyam,prayer to Ganesha found in later Vedic literature mentions Lam as the Bijakshara connected with Ganesha. Hala in his Gadha saptasati talks of 'Nava kapalika'. He also talks of om Uddulana ritual which is later described at length by Lakulisa in his Lakulisa pasupati sutra. Shortly after that, Gaudapada has created a good amount of information on Tantra. 5th and 6th c. inscriptions mention the verses eulogizing Durga, such as Udaypur inscription and Dadhamati inscription. By 7th C. Tantra has developed to great heights and Adi Sankara has prohibited many of the Ksudra practices in Tantra to improvise it. More later after hearing from the group, Kishore patnaik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 More on the references: Prayoga part of the mantra vidyas is found in Atharva Veda. The astra part of them is found in Dhanurveda, an upaveda. Most of these form the sadhana aspect, and are found in Tantra. For instance: 1. Bala, atibala are Gayatri vidyas whose reference we see in Ramayana - they are given to Rama and Lakshmana by Viswamitra. These are found in Rudra Yamala. 2. Jatavedasi Durga is found in Rig, Yajur and Atharva Vedas. Its astra aspect is Agneyastra, whose reference we find in MBH as well as Ramayana. The prayoga part is found in Rudra Yamala. 3. Pasupata is found in Yajurveda. Its astra reference makes a significant portion of MBH - Arjuna gaining and applying it. We find the prayoga part in Saiva Agamas, Rudra Yamala as well as Atharva Veda. 4. Brahmastra references are found in MBH and Ramayana. There are multiple versions of it - for instance under the vidyas Sarabha Saluva, Bagala Mukhi and Gayatri. We find all these in the Tantra, esp. Bagala Mukhi in Rudra Yamala. 5. Reference to Sudarsana prayoga is found in MBH - Sri Krishna has it. It is found in Vaishnava Agamas as well as Rudra Yamala. One can argue that most of these references are in upakhyanas and can well be later additions to Jayam or Ramayana. But fact remains that Tantra, Veda and Puranic literature are closely related, and they developed hand in hand. Therefore the antiquity of one will, in good probability, influence the antiquity of another. ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj Sent: Monday, January 5, 2009 11:35:21 AMRe: Antiquity of Tantra "The Vedas talk of Beeja alphabets such as Phat. "Aditi or Bhuvaneswari beeja that has different names like Lajja, Hrillekha, Bhuvaneswari, Mahamaya appears in the early Riks itself - for instance in Purusha Sukta (hreesca te lakshmeesca patnyau). "Ganesha adharva sirshyam,prayer to Ganesha found in later Vedic literature mentions Lam as the Bijakshara connected with Ganesha. ""Gam" - may be a typo Ga is first of Ganas (Ga, ka etc are Ganas in alphabet and Ga is the consonant that originates from the deepest portion of the mouth) and is called Ganaadi. Varnaadi is "a". Anusvaara or visarga end most of the beejas. Thus Gam is formed with the leaders of Ganas and therefore is Ganapati. This is how mantra sastra forms basis for theology. In general each devata's tatva is defined by the major beejas of the mula mantra/vidya. Whether the Devata is a pleasant or angry form, how many hands or legs or heads or weapons are there in the description, what are the benefits in worship, all this is determined by the same. Language and mantra sastra are closely related. Syllables or word-roots are representatives of natural phenomena. Mantra Beejas are composed by the same principle and that is how the qualities of Devata are determined by the beejas. For instance the vidyas having maya beeja as the central one are pleasant and smiling forms (Ex. Lalita, Bhuvaneswari) . The vidyas having krodha (hum) are angry or ferocious forms. The various natural phenomena like happiness and auspiciousness (sreem, central in Kamalatmika/ Sri), anger (hum, central in Chinnamasta) , smoke (dhuum central in Dhumavati), fire (agni - ram), desire (kleem, central in Sri Krishna and Bala vidyas) form central letters of the vidyas. For the same reason alphabet is referred to in multiple ways in the description of Gods - Kali wearing 51 skulls, 64 yogini Ganas worshiping the Mother, seven Matrikas and so on. These "beejas" are found in common usage, not only in sanskrit but in regional languages too: one is said to make a "humkara" when angry, "Sri" is used as a sign of noble, and so on. However we cannot say that this developed along with the development or formalization of language, because study of beejas and mantra sastra has to do with syllables and not really a formal language or grammar. And Veda itself expounds a well developed Mantra Sastra, which is much prior to the formalized grammar. Tantras relate themselves closely to Atharva Veda, with explicit and implicit references. Tantra was a general term used to refer to any school/methodology and was not a specific kind of text as we refer to it today. The application part of worship was practiced as a "tantra". In case of Vaishnava Agamas they are not even treated as a separate school of practices from the Vedic. Early references to Pancaratras (Narada) could be found in the Mahabharata itself. They deal with many vidyas, of vedic devatas and their derivatives. The current shape of Tantra texts evolved in multiple stages. A possible sequence: 1 basic mantra sastra and theology - even this is evolutionary but this is the early basis for all other portions of the text 2 putting it in a formal guru-sishya parampara, diksha and so on 3 formulation of temple and individual worship 4 summary of theology, evolving a spiritual philosophy - this is developed to some extent on the base of Vedanta. 5 formulating a world view or a darsana around the practices - this developed with Tantric darsanas such as Nakuleesa Pasupata, Raseswara, Pratyabhijna. The evidence available on Tantra is much smaller compared to what is visible on the Vedic literature. This is because a whole civilization is centered around the latter while Tantra is upasana-specific. Its evolution can be studied through the evolution of the text itself: the way the early male forms like Virocana have later become to be worshiped in female forms like Vairocani, the development of Yoga Sastra and the way early references to yoga transformed into the later well developed and systematic explanation of different forms of Yoga - Laya, Mantra, Kundalini, Hatha. If one draws a parallel of development between Tantra and Puranic literataure, this will be easier. For example Devi Mahatmya and Lalita Upakhyana of Markandeya and Brahmanda Puranas are in sequence of evolution. And so are Candi and Sri Vidya of Tantra. The latter is popularized by Adi Sankara. So while the Tantras as they appear today could have formed between 1-10th centuries, having a "Tantra" and following it must be much older. In fact one can see a parallel between Tantras and the Vedic texts that deal with procedures and methods - like Brahmanas and Kalpa Sutras, compilations like Mahanyasa. PS: I am currently preparing an article on mantra sastra but did not post as it is not relevant to the group. I can if you want. Kishore patnaik <kishorepatnaik09@ gmail.com>Sunday, January 4, 2009 9:18:17 PM Antiquity of Tantra The Vedas talk of Beeja alphabets such as Phat. Ganesha adharva sirshyam,prayer to Ganesha found in later Vedic literature mentions Lam as the Bijakshara connected with Ganesha. Hala in his Gadha saptasati talks of 'Nava kapalika'. He also talks of om Uddulana ritual which is later described at length by Lakulisa in his Lakulisa pasupati sutra. Shortly after that, Gaudapada has created a good amount of information on Tantra. 5th and 6th c. inscriptions mention the verses eulogizing Durga, such as Udaypur inscription and Dadhamati inscription. By 7th C. Tantra has developed to great heights and Adi Sankara has prohibited many of the Ksudra practices in Tantra to improvise it. More later after hearing from the group, Kishore patnaik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 , " Kishore patnaik " <kishorepatnaik09 wrote: > > The Vedas talk of Beeja alphabets such as Phat.< By now I understand that when Hindus claim " the Vedas " as their source, 9 times out of 10 the claim is untrue. Could you please specify where " the Vedas talk of Beeja alphabets such as Phat " ? Best regards, KE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 "By now I understand that when Hindus claim "the Vedas" as their source, 9 times out of 10 the claim is untrue."And when a non-practicing scholar is talking of Vedas, he is not talking of Veda but Samhita alone, esp Rig Samhita! On a cursory glance, these are the references: 1. Taittireeya Aranyaka 4.27.1khat phat jahichindhi bhindhi handhi katiti vaacaH kruuraaNiIn fact all those described here are beejas used in mantras of Devatas having Terrible forms 2. Atharva Veda Samhita 4.18.3Ama kritva paapmaanam yastenaanyam jighaamsatiasmaasastasyaam dagdhaayaam bahulaaH phat karikrati However "Phat, Hum, Svaha, Vashat, Vaushat" etc with respect to Veda mantras are not part of mantras but nyasa - therefore found in the application of those - in Kalpa Sutras etc. Vedic Devatas are in general not terrible forms and therefore beejas like hum and phat are seldom found. However the beejas like "hreem, sreem, aum, aim, ram" that correspond to various major deities are found in the Samhita in various places. Koenraad Elst <koenraad.elst Sent: Monday, January 5, 2009 6:50:35 PM Re: Antiquity of Tantra , "Kishore patnaik" <kishorepatnaik09@ ...> wrote: > > The Vedas talk of Beeja alphabets such as Phat.< By now I understand that when Hindus claim "the Vedas" as their source, 9 times out of 10 the claim is untrue. Could you please specify where "the Vedas talk of Beeja alphabets such as Phat"? Best regards, KE __._ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 AV. 4.18.3 asmanas, tasyiam dugdhayam 4 bahulah phat karikrati, --- On Mon, 1/5/09, Koenraad Elst <koenraad.elst wrote: Koenraad Elst <koenraad.elst Re: Antiquity of Tantra Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 5:20 AM , "Kishore patnaik" <kishorepatnaik09@ ...> wrote:>> The Vedas talk of Beeja alphabets such as Phat.<By now I understand that when Hindus claim "the Vedas" as their source, 9 times out of 10 the claim is untrue. Could you please specify where "the Vedas talk of Beeja alphabets such as Phat"?Best regards,KE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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