Connection of Greeks with India - discussions from other groups

[Guest guest]

Koenraad elst writes in Indian Archaeology:

 

> 1. Triptka mentions Greeks This cannon is of the times of Buddha

>

 

No, it is a few centuries younger, which is why it could mention

Greeks, who only reached India nearly two centuries after the Buddha.

Then again, some Ionians/Yavanas were already resettled to Afghanista

and India's NW Frontier by the Achaemenids ca. 500 BC.

 

The Tripitaka's language, Pali, was not the language of the Buddha

(which was more like Ardhamagadhi), but an artificial language

concocted by scribes in Sri Lanka on the basis of the Prakrit of

Ujjain or thereabouts. that's at least what I learnt at BHU. For this

reason, incidentally, it's a bit silly when secularists object to

using Buddhist terminology in Sanskrit rather than in " the original "

Pali. The Buddhists themselves changed to Sanskrit because it was the

lingua franca, apart from being etymologically more transparent and

being the established vehicle of philosophy with all the required

terminology.

 

> 2. Panini mentions about Yavanas.

>

 

This is serious, if true. It would mean Panini is usually dated too

high and should be brought down to 300 BC or so. But I suspect you're

mistaken.

 

 

> 3. According to Warmington, the use of many herbs and plants was

learnt by

> Greeks from Indians, as reported in later medical texts. This has

started

> atleast by 6th c. bce.

>

 

This is well-known and uncontroversial. The dietary and other

discipline of the Pythagoreans is also too similar to that of the

Jains to be coincidental. In the latter case, the arrow seems to

point from indian to Greece. In the case of astrology, it's the

reverse.

[Guest guest]

[both Carlos and Elst are members here]

 

Carlos writes in reply at Indian Archaeology:

 

" Kishore Patnaik wrote:

 

> 1. Triptka mentions Greeks This cannon is of the times of Buddha

>

 

Koenraad Elst replied:

 

> No, it is a few centuries younger, which is why it could mention

> Greeks, who only reached India nearly two centuries after the

Buddha.

> Then again, some Ionians/Yavanas were already resettled to

Afghanista

> and India's NW Frontier by the Achaemenids ca. 500 BC.

>

> The Tripitaka's language, Pali, was not the language of the Buddha

> (which was more like Ardhamagadhi), but an artificial language

> concocted by scribes in Sri Lanka on the basis of the Prakrit of

> Ujjain or thereabouts. that's at least what I learnt at BHU. For

this

> reason, incidentally, it's a bit silly when secularists object to

> using Buddhist terminology in Sanskrit rather than in " the

original "

> Pali. The Buddhists themselves changed to Sanskrit because it was

the

> lingua franca, apart from being etymologically more transparent

and

> being the established vehicle of philosophy with all the required

> terminology.

>

 

Koenraad,

 

You are wrong triying to dismiss the antiquity of information within

Pali Canon (Tipitaka). You should have read first the work of

Alexander Wynne from St. John's College, Oxford University, who in

his virtual article from year 2003 tittled " How old is the

Suttapitaka? " says:

 

" According to the Sinhalese chronicles, the Pali canon was written

down in the reign of King Vattagamani (29-17 B.C.).[1] It has been

generally accepted, therefore, that the canon contains information

about the early history of Indian Buddhism, from the time of the

Buddha (c.484-404 B.C.) until the end of the first century B.C. [2]

That the canonical texts are a record of the period of Buddhism

before they were written down in Sri Lanka seems to be confirmed by

the fact that their language, Pali, is north Indian in origin. "

 

Regarding your erroneus or not updated claim that Pali

was " concoted " by scribes in Sri Lanka, Wynne points out:

 

" Thus the Pali canon shows 'no certain evidence for any substantial

Sinhalese additions ... after its arrival in Ceylon.' [3] If the

language of the Pali canon is north Indian in origin, and without

substantial Sinhalese additions, it is likely that the canon was

composed somewhere in north India before its introduction to Sri

Lanka, and is therefore a source for the period of Buddhism in

northern India before this. The Sinhalese chronicles state that the

canon was brought to Sri Lanka by Mahinda during the reign of Aœoka,

implying that it predates the middle of the third century B.C. [4]

According to this history, the Pali canon, particularly the Vinaya

and Sutta portions, is a reliable source for the early history of

Indian Buddhism in the period before Aœoka. "

 

For a full explanation regarding why Pali Canon can have Buddha`s

words see:

 

http://tinyurl.com/5ebc84

 

Here Wynne mentions that:

 

" It is therefore possible that much of what is found in the

Suttapitaka is earlier than c.250 B.C., perhaps even more than 100

years older than this. If some of the material is so old, it might

be possible to establish what texts go back to the very beginning of

Buddhism, texts which perhaps include the substance of the Buddha's

teaching, and in some cases, maybe even his words. "

 

On the other hand, are Greeks mentioned in Suttapitaka or Vinaya? If

so, could they be Yavanas from North West Frontier at c. 500 BC

settled there in Achaemenid times as you mention? It would be

important to have more details of that pre-Alexander Ionians.

 

Other interesting thing for me is why Greeks of Alexander times

could be seen as Ionians/Yona if Alexander troops may have been

Macedonians in majority.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Carlos "

[Guest guest]

> The Sinhalese chronicles state that the

> canon was brought to Sri Lanka by Mahinda during the reign of

Aœoka,

> implying that it predates the middle of the third century B.C. [4]

> According to this history, the Pali canon, particularly the Vinaya

> and Sutta portions, is a reliable source for the early history of

> Indian Buddhism in the period before Aœoka. " <

 

That's still late enough for recording meetings with post-Alexander

Greeks/Tavana-s.

 

 

> On the other hand, are Greeks mentioned in Suttapitaka or Vinaya?

If

> so, could they be Yavanas from North West Frontier at c. 500 BC

> settled there in Achaemenid times as you mention? It would be

> important to have more details of that pre-Alexander Ionians.

> Other interesting thing for me is why Greeks of Alexander times

> could be seen as Ionians/Yona if Alexander troops may have been

> Macedonians in majority.

>

 

 

Come to mention it, the very choice of the word Ionian/Yona/Yavana to

indicate Greeks pars pro toto may indeed stem from a situation where

the Greeks whom Indians encountered were all Ionians, not

Macedonians. Ionia was a part of the Achaemenid empire, the rest of

Greece was not, so any Greeks resetlled to the eats of the empire

would have been Ionians. That makes it likely the word dates from

before Alexander.

 

Regards,

 

KE

[Guest guest]

Koenraad,

 

I wrote quoting Dr Wynne:

 

> " The Sinhalese chronicles state that the

> canon was brought to Sri Lanka by Mahinda during the reign of

> Asoka,

> implying that it predates the middle of the third century B.C. [4]

> According to this history, the Pali canon, particularly the Vinaya

> and Sutta portions, is a reliable source for the early history of

> Indian Buddhism in the period before Asoka. "

>

 

You replied:

 

> That's still late enough for recording meetings with post-

> Alexander

> Greeks/Yavana-s.

 

But you are not taking into account another part of my previous

message where Dr Wynne clearly points out that much of Pali Canon

could be MORE THAN 100 YEARS OLDER THAN 250 BC:

 

" It is therefore possible that much of what is found in the

Suttapitaka is earlier than c.250 B.C., perhaps even more than 100

years older than this. If some of the material is so old, it might

be possible to establish what texts go back to the very beginning of

Buddhism, texts which perhaps include the substance of the Buddha's

teaching, and in some cases, maybe even his words. "

 

This would be a date of 350 BC or earlier. So Wynne's claim

indirectly would suggest pre-Alexander Yonas/Yavanas.

 

But still is not clear to me in what portions of Pali Canon Yonas

are mentioned. I think this is the fundamental point.

 

Best regards,

 

Carlos

[Guest guest]

IndiaArchaeology , " Carlos Aramayo "

<cararam50 wrote:

 

> But still is not clear to me in what portions of Pali Canon Yonas

> are mentioned. I think this is the fundamental point.

 

An old post by Prof. Klaus Karttunen to the Liverpool Indology List

has some interesting references:

 

http://tinyurl.com/5ylzwy

" Among Buddhist sources the DIghanikAya-Commentary on 1, p. 176 lists

barbarian languages: damiLa-kirAta-yavanAdi-millakkhAnaM bhAsA (see

also the TIkA ad l.).

The same also in ANguttaran, Commentary 2, p. 289.

Another list in the VibhaNga-Comm. p. 387f.: oTTa-kirAta-andhaka-

yonaka-damiLa-bhAsAdikA aTThArasa bhAsA.

The MahAvastu 1, p. 135 mentions YAvanI or rather yonAnI among

various scripts.

The same also in the Tibetan Lalitavistara (see Edgerton, Dictionary

s.v. yonAnI).

In Jaina sources: javaNalivi as one of the 18 kinds of writing in

SamavAyANga 18, 43 and ZIlaNka's CauppaNNamahApurisacariaM 124.

There are probably other passages, too.

The PurANas have many Yavana passages in the connection of

geographical divisions and legends (especially those of Sagara and

KAlayavana), but I have found no references to their language. "

 

On the terms Yavana and Yona, see my posts archived at

 

http://tech.IndiaArchaeology/message/4329

http://tech.IndiaArchaeology/message/4301

 

Regards,

Francesco

[Guest guest]

Francesco Brighenti wrote:

 

> An old post by Prof. Klaus Karttunen to the Liverpool Indology List

> has some interesting references:

>

> http://tinyurl.com/5ylzwy

> " Among Buddhist sources the DIghanikAya-Commentary on 1, p. 176

lists

> barbarian languages: damiLa-kirAta-yavanAdi-millakkhAnaM bhAsA (see

> also the TIkA ad l.).

> The same also in ANguttaran, Commentary 2, p. 289.

> Another list in the VibhaNga-Comm. p. 387f.: oTTa-kirAta-andhaka-

> yonaka-damiLa-bhAsAdikA aTThArasa bhAsA.

 

This shows that the word YAVANA is attested in the COMMENTARIES to two

Suttas of the Digha Nikaya and Anguttara Nikaya; and the word YONA is

attested in the COMMENTARY to Vibhanga of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, which

means that these words are not part of the first layer of the PALI

TIPITAKA as I thought in my discussion with Koenraad Elst.

 

This means that Yavana/Yona are in the commentaries but not in the

earliest canonical texts of Pali Canon. But anyway it is not excluded

the possibility that these later commentaries gather a very early

tradition too.

 

Best regards,

 

Carlos

[Guest guest]

taM kiM ma¨¾¨¾asi assal¨¡yana, sutaM te: 'yonakambojesu a¨¾¨¾esu ca

paccantimesu janapadesu

dveva vaNN¨¡, ayyo ceva d¨¡so ca. Ayyo hutv¨¡ d¨¡so hoti, d¨¡so

hutv¨¡ ayyo

hot¨©'ti.

SuttantapiTaka, Majjhima Nikaya.ii.149, Assal¨¡yana Sutta: Yona and

Kamboja are mentioned here as Paccantima Janapadas in which there

were only two classes of people, Ayya and Dasa, and the Ayya could

become a Dasa or vice versa.

The contrast is here Arya versus Dasa, which is very ancient. Both

Ayya and Dasa are the (same ethnic?) members of the same Janapada.

 

It is interesting that the Anguttara Commentary (AA.i.51) records

that from the time of Kassapa Buddha the Yonakas went about clad in

white robes, because of the memory of the religion which was once

prevalent there.

We know that Vedic Trtsus were Shvityancas, as also the Zoroastrians.

In later time we have Safedposh Kafirs in Kamboja territory.

 

The language of the Yavanas is classed with the Milakkhabh¨¡s¨¡ (E.g.,

DA.i.276; VibhA.388).

 

Milakkha Janapada and Milakkhabhasa

The Pali TipiTaka makes a distinction between Ayya and Milakkha, both

as bhasa and janapada. Which may be taken as a parallel to Ayya and

Dasa in the sense of vanna.

SuttantapiTaka, Dighanikaya, Patikavaggo 264 contrasts Majjhimesu

janapadesu with Paccantimesu janapadesu Milakkhesu.

In all these contrasts as testified by the Pali tradition, one does

get the impression that Yona bhasa is close to an Indo-Iranian

language. As close neighbours of Kambojas who used an Avestan verb

shavati, they may have been a Gana of a Nuristani group.

 

 

regards,

Isha

 

IndiaArchaeology , " Carlos Aramayo "

<cararam50 wrote:

>

>

> Francesco Brighenti wrote:

>

> > An old post by Prof. Klaus Karttunen to the Liverpool Indology

List

> > has some interesting references:

> >

> > http://tinyurl.com/5ylzwy

> > " Among Buddhist sources the DIghanikAya-Commentary on 1, p. 176

lists

> > barbarian languages: damiLa-kirAta-yavanAdi-millakkhAnaM bhAsA

(see

> > also the TIkA ad l.).

> > The same also in ANguttaran, Commentary 2, p. 289.

> > Another list in the VibhaNga-Comm. p. 387f.: oTTa-kirAta-andhaka-

> > yonaka-damiLa-bhAsAdikA aTThArasa bhAsA.

>

> This shows that the word YAVANA is attested in the COMMENTARIES to

two

> Suttas of the Digha Nikaya and Anguttara Nikaya; and the word YONA

is

> attested in the COMMENTARY to Vibhanga of the Abhidhamma Pitaka,

which

> means that these words are not part of the first layer of the PALI

> TIPITAKA as I thought in my discussion with Koenraad Elst.

>

> This means that Yavana/Yona are in the commentaries but not in the

> earliest canonical texts of Pali Canon. But anyway it is not

excluded

> the possibility that these later commentaries gather a very early

> tradition too.

>

> Best regards,

>

> Carlos

>

[Guest guest]

Carlos,

You ask an extremely pertinent question.

AK Narain in his book Indo-Greeks deals briefly with this

issue.

 

As you know, Alexander's journey to India is considered

an 'anchor' for Indian chronology. But there are big

time problems with it. (not just the Sandracottus issue)

 

The question is about where exactly into India

did Alexander reach and where he turned back.

This distance/time difference could affect by a few

months as to where exactly Alexander stopped and have

a huge influence on issue of chronology in India.

There is a big question as to where exactly Alexander

turned back - was it in the punjab , or was it much further

west in Afghanistan. There was more than one Puru -

there was one eastern Pururvas, and a western Pururvas

(all that it means is that they were of Puru clan).

Also, there is the issue of whether rivers were in spate

because of rains or whether because of spring melting of

the snow.

 

While the relative chronology of India is allright, the absolute

chronology of India needs some strong reevaluation.

This again goes back to dating the Rigveda, Buddha etc etc...

 

 

regards,

Subrahmanya

 

IndiaArchaeology , " Carlos Aramayo "

<cararam50 wrote:

>

>

> Other interesting thing for me is why Greeks of Alexander times

> could be seen as Ionians/Yona if Alexander troops may have been

> Macedonians in majority.

>

>

> Best regards,

>

> Carlos

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Subrahmanya,

 

You wrote:

 

> As you know, Alexander's journey to India is considered

> an 'anchor' for Indian chronology. But there are big

> time problems with it. (not just the Sandracottus issue)

>

 

One curious thing is that Alexander's conquering campaign to North

Western India is not attested in INDIAN SOURCES of that time but only

in Greek.

 

Carlos

[Guest guest]

Vishnu Khare wrote :

 

The Muslim invasions are hardly attested in the so-called Indian (

read Hindu ) Resources for that matter.Barring post-British

times,Indian history has hardly been recorded by the Brahmin-

Kshatriya combine.Though the ostrich never flourished in India,its

attitude has had a heyday.

 

--- On Tue, 26/8/08, Carlos Aramayo <cararam50 wrote:

 

Carlos Aramayo <cararam50

[ind-Arch] Re: Connection of Greeks with India

IndiaArchaeology

Tuesday, 26 August, 2008, 2:05 AM

 

 

 

Dear Subrahmanya,

 

You wrote:

 

> As you know, Alexander's journey to India is considered

> an 'anchor' for Indian chronology. But there are big

> time problems with it. (not just the Sandracottus issue)

>

 

One curious thing is that Alexander's conquering campaign to North

Western India is not attested in INDIAN SOURCES of that time but only

in Greek.

 

Carlos

[Guest guest]

Dear Subrahmanyaji,

There are quite a few references in the Puranas to Yavanas. Yavans

have been treated as " papas " i.e. a " sinful commuity " in the

following shloka of the Bahgavata (or perhaps Mahabharata---I am

right now not sure since I am just drawing from my memory!):

" aabheera kankah yavanah khasadayah

ye anye cha papap yad upashryaya shryah, shudyanti tasmay prabha

vishnave namah "

a simple translation of the same could be

 

" My pranams to such a Vishnu who can purify 'papayonis' like

abheeras, kankas, yavanas and khasas--after they take refuge in Him " .

 

However the word yavanas is taken as an exclusive reference to the

Greeks after the " famous " words of Varahamihira in his Brihat Samhita

" yavnah hi mlechhah, teshu samyak shastram idam sthitam

rishi vat te api pujyante, kim punarveda-vid dvijah "

 

A running translation of the same could be

 

" Yavanas are mlechhas. This shastra, i.e. predictive astrology, is

well established in them. As such, even they (in spite of being

mlechhas) are 'worshipped' like Rishis. It goes without saying that

Brahmins will be treated with a much better respect, if they learn

jyotisha (phalita) "

 

Obviously, Varahamihira was not referrring to any other community by

the word " Yavanas " except for Greeks since they were the ones who had

introduced the Surya Sidhanta as well as Sphujidwaja's Yvana-jatakam!

The latter has very ably and skilfully been edited and translated by

Dr. Pingree, and published by Harvard University Press in 1970,

whatever some " phalit jyotishis " may say!

 

Vrahamihira has said at several places in his Brihat Jatakam " Yavnah

Oochuh " i.e. " yavnas have said thus " . He has also referred to

several Greek names in his works.

 

(Lest some " brahmins " start " selling their astrologcial ware---as if

they are not already doing so!---since Varahamihira has advised them

to do so, a word of caution is necessary:

As against such a praise for phalita jytoisha by Vrahamihira, who

wants a " mlechha " also to be treated as a " Rishi " if he

knows " phalita jyotisha " , Bhishma Pitamaha has summarily dismissed

such brahmins as " Chandaralas " who are nakshatra-soochis!)

 

Then again, Varahamihira, instead of being a great astronomer, was

the worst charlatan of the last one-and-a-half millennium according

to me! In his Brihat Samhita he has said, " spashtataro savitrah "

i.e. " the Surya Sidhanta (by Maya, again a Yavana and therefore a

mlechha!) is the most accurate work out of all the five sidhantas of

the Panchasihdantika " . Obviously, he must have been preparing his

ephemeris/panchagnas and even the horoscopes of his clients from the

same " most accurate work " from which he must have been

making " correct predictions " as well!

 

It is an " open secrete " by now that the Surya Sidhanta is one of the

most monstrous astronomical works that could ever have been

produced! Its fundamental arguments are just sheer imagination

without any actual observations! It cries from house tops that Makar

Sankranti is a synonym of Uttarayana and Dakshinayana that of Karka

Sankranti and also Mesha Sankranti is another name of Vernal Equinox

whereas Autumn Eqinox is nothing but Tula Sankranti! That

naturally means that it is talking of the same rashichakra of Greek

constellations that was prevailing in Grecho-Chaldean astrology at

the time of Alexander " the Great " ! But in the same breath, the same

Surya Sidhanta clubs Ashvini nakshatra with the vernal Equinox right

from the dawn of the creation till its doomsday!

 

Then again, the duration of the year should naturally have been

tropical but in its fundamental arguments, the duration of the year

is neither tropical nor sidereal but just eight palas---3.5 seconds

approximately---more than even the sidereal year!

What is most ironic is that there are no secular variations at all---

again right from the dawn of creation till the doomsday! That means

it just gives a uniform average daily motion of not only the sun and

the moon but all the planets as well, from Mercury to Shani and also

Rahu---throughout the " kalpa " --- as many as 4,320,000,000 years!

 

No wonder our ancestors (including Varahamihira!) were

making " correct (sic!) " predictions from the horoscopes prepared from

panchangas based on the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha because

till about a century back, i.e. till the advent of modern astronomy

into India, such sidhanas or karnagranthas were " the most accurate

astronomical works " of Hindu astrologers who call themselves " Vedic

jyotishis " now a days!

However, the net outcome of this " treating mlechhas as rishis " has

been that the entire Hindu community is celebrating all its festivals

and muhurtas on worng days, thanks to " Vedic asrologers " and

their " Vedic astrology " !

With regards,

Avtar Krishen Kaul

[Guest guest]

Koenraad Elst wrote:

 

> Some Ionians/Yavanas were already resettled to Afghanistan and

> India's NW Frontier by the Achaemenids ca. 500 BC.

 

Carlos Aramayo replied:

 

> It would be important to have more details of t[hose] pre-

> Alexander Ionians.

 

I can't understand who on this discussion forum first came up with

the unlikely idea that the Indic terms Yavanas and Yonas only

indicated the *post-Alexander* Greeks. On the contrary, Asiatic

Greeks ( " Ionians " ) were almost certainly known to the inhabitants of

Gandhara from the time of the annexation of that region to the

Achaemenid empire under Darius I the Great.

 

To start with, it seems that, due to its remoteness and dry

mountainous environment, Bactria (which included northern

Afghanistan and, therefore, bordered on Gandhara to the southeast)

became a favorite destination for deporting Ionian captives of the

Achaemenids. At the same time, the permanent settlement of Ionian

mercenaries and workers in Achaemenid Afghanistan may be inferred

(although not fully proved) on the analogy of what is known to have

occurred in Persia itself.

 

From A.K. Narain, _The Indo-Greeks_, Oxford, Claredon Press, 1957:

 

" There is evidence to show that the Greeks of various city-states in

Asia Minor were sometimes threatened by the Persians with exile to

the far eastern portions of the Achaemenid empire [fn. 4: Herodotus

VI. 9] and were actually settled in those areas [fn. 5: Besides the

colonies of the Thracians (?) at Nysa and of the Branchidae in

Sogdiana, we know from Herodotus, IV. 204, that a colony of Libyans

from Barca was settled in Bactria] " (p. 3).

 

" The Athenian 'owls' [a type of silver coins -- FB], together with

the issues of other Greek cities, which have been found in

Afghanistan, must have been brought there by the Greeks both as

traders and settlers " (p. 4).

 

Cf. also:

 

" [starting from circa 500 B.C, during the reign of Darius I the

Great,] many Greeks entered Persian employ in imperial building

projects and other functions [...]. The Persian kings imported

Greeks as engineers and artists to build their palace centers, and

as mercenary soldiers, generals, and admirals. So widespread were

Greek mercenaries, in fact, that in Cambyses' conquest of Egypt,

says Herodotus, Greeks fought on both sides. [...] The Persians

reoriented their production system for the use of foreign workers.

Called _kurtash_, these were sometimes slaves, sometimes free people

working for wages, and sometimes indentured servants. [...] Among

the _kurtash_ were individuals from conquered populations, including

both Ionians and Bactrians. [...] The Achaemenians established

settlements of Asiatic Greeks in Bactria. Among the Greeks settled

in Bactria were the citizens of Miletus who were relocated after the

destruction of that city for its fomenting the Ionian revolution in

499 " (T. McEvilley, _The Shape of Ancient Thought: Comparative

Studies in Greek and Indian Philosophies_, New York, Allworth Press,

2002, p. 8).

 

Hope this helps,

Francesco