Guest guest Posted July 13, 2008 Report Share Posted July 13, 2008 IndiaArchaeology , " aareni " <aareni wrote: Arcaeoastronomy of MBh This is a perennial topic of interest to many in India and abroad. Considering the importance of MB and Krishna for our culture and religion the topic is rightly a benchmark. However, establishing historicity by analysis and presenting evidences objectively is another matter. Having spent considerable time on this subject I like to present the following points. 1) The war is only one incident in MB. We should not be looking for a date in isolation, for this event. Historicity demands the text story line has to be internally compatible all through. Since the text as we know has come down in different recensions from various parts of the country, social, religious and cultural themes could have been added and altered. There can be no strong motivation to add eclipses and planetary positions into the text. However, even assuming this has happened (since there are at least three layers of text in MB) this does not make the material unhistorical. What we should question is whether there is a set of celestial observations as a central core. The text may be in error due to copying and transmission problems. Also, when the meter (Chandas) differs we can suspect that, that part may belong to a different period or editor. After scanning the period (500-3250BC) I found only 1443-93 BC to represent the core celestial observations. These are eclipses in Sabha, Bhi., and Maus.paravans and planets in Udyoga and Bhi.P. About planets at KarNa's death, observe that the meter changes. Also, the different editions do not agree with each other at this position on planet descriptions. 2) MB has two eminent, long period historicity constraints. These are the three (NOT TWO as some have worked up) solar eclipses (SE1, SE2, SE3), with either SE1 or SE2 or both being a duo. Please see my paper for details of the text. http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/maha/ <http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/maha/> mbheclipse/ These have to be sequenced at the required interval of 13-15 years and 35-36 years. This minimum info is correct since all editions agree and there is no change in style of narration at these places. The 36 year figure appears in Stri.P; and twice in Mausala P. 3) Several solutions are possible for the above sequence. Fortunately planetary statements, the most reliable ones being from Udyog. P come handy for further work. Saturn is mentioned thrice. Twice in the same position near Rohini, but a third time near Vishakha. The argument of N. Achar that this third Sanaiscara is a comet is not justifiable. See his Mythic Society Paper p.79 where he states that he believes verse VI.2.25 also refers to comets. In his recent article in the ISERVE Proceedings he selectively ignores this position of Saturn. This has not prevented him from writing a footnote wrongly describing my approach, which he has either not read or not understood. Specifically he attributes to me " Iyengar assumed that part of the text in Bhishma. Parvan actually belongs to Sabha Parvan and would rearrange the text of the epic to suit his model. " This is not just a wrong remark but is loaded with extra meanings. I wasn't pushing any preconceived model. I only demonstrated in my IJHS-2003 paper that after arriving at 1478 BC for the war without any assumptions, the second tricky position of Saturn, Mars and Venus get satisfied for a date in 1493 BC fifteen years before the War position of 1478 BC. 4) Now about the case of 3067BC. I find no solution fitting the required positions.(See Q. J of Mythic Society, XCIV, 1-2, 150-186.) 15.10.3067BC is a SE day, but no LE occurred before or after a fortnight as correctly pointed out by Chandra Hari. On K.K.Ashtami night Mars was near Shravana and not between Jyestha and Anuradha as demanded. An SE 35 year later was possible (11.5.3031, 5.11.3031 BC) as claimed originally by Srinivasa Raghavan. Interestingly 15 years prior to 3067, an SE was possible on 21.7.3081 BC. This was also not accompanied by an LE. Moreover the crucial testing statements of Saturn at Vishakha, Mars at Magha, Venus circling (retrograde) near Purvabhadra were not satisfied. Hence, we cannot accept the above epoch containing 3067 BC as a possible historical period when some people could have made naked eye observation of the sky near Kurukshetra, matching with MB text. 5) Questions are sometimes raised regarding solstice, interval of 68 days, 42 days etc. When the goal is historicity, within-an-year constraints loose their sharpness and hence importance. Some of these are valid for any year, with minor adjustments. The eve of the War was Kartika Purnima, when the conversation took place. With the war starting on Krttika/rohini it ends on Shravana after 18days. So Balarama's 42 day travel can be fitted neatly into any year with the Pushya-krttika-sravana cycle. Hence, insistence on this to prove or disprove a macro-date for MB is irrelevant. 12.10.1478 as found in my paper satisfies this automatically. War start cannot be taken on Amavasya. " sangraamam yojayet " may just mean 'let it be planned'. Any way this talk was in private between two persons, not involved in the direct preparations. Vyaasa's statement of KP before war is more authentic. 6) About death of Bhishma, it can only be said, there is confusion. He passed away after Uttarayana-puNyakaala is clear. 120470031/.nivRtta.maatre.tv.ayana;uttare.vai.divaa.kare./ The number of days between the start of the war and his death is ambiguous in the text. Please read the following: All editions describe how Krishna+Pandavas meet Bhishma, and K tells Bhi 'you have still 56 days to live' 0120510141/.pancaa.zatam.SaT.ca.kuru.praviira.zeSam.dinaanaam.tava .jiivitasya This happened on a Purnima as it is said moon arose in front as sun was setting in west. 0120520323/.puraz.ca.pazcaac.ca.yathaa.mahaa.nadii.pura.RkSa.vanta m.girim.etya.narmadaa.// 0120520331/.tatah.purastaad.bhagavaan.nizaa.karah.samutthitas.taam .abhiharSayamz.camuum I wonder why some scholars insist on the 68 day interval between start of war and death of Bhishma. If you take what Krishna had to say as above this interval should be 84/85 days. This is another reason why we should not discuss MB without bringing in decade long constraints. BORI edition contains only 154 chapters in Anushasana Parvan. The famous verse 'Maaghoyam..' is not available in all editions and has to be kept out of discussion on Historicity, even if it be valid from a religious point of view. The Bhishmastami argument highlighted by some Hindus is not very critical to the issue. Firstly, it is a religious concept. Second, it is not true that all over the country it is accepted in the same way. I cite one counter example. Please see Skaanda puraana-Prabhasa Khanda-Vastraapatha Mahatmya: Ch.15 verses 30-40. This is the Bhishma pancaka starting with Ekadashi Pancopavasaah kartavyah sampraapte Bhishma-pancake| Ekaadas'im samaarabhya pancami poornimaa-dinam| Consider the interval of 84/85 days cited above. If 12.10.1478BC is taken as K.Purnima (MB war eve), Maagha-sukla-astami falls after 82 days on 2/3 Jan 1477 BC with Krttika/Rohini. This is too close to what Krishna had to say (as per Vaishampaayana)about Bhishma. If you add another 3 days you get Ekaadashi. It was uttarayana of course. 7)Is MBh Archaeoastronomy sufficient to prove that Krishna existed as a historical person around the dates obtained as solution? Most likely yes; if the numbers do not contradict other astronomical statements in MBh and Krishna related Puranas. Those who hold on to the c 3000 BC figure have to interpret how the Polestar could have been wandering or what is the meaning of Abhijit competing with her sister Jyestha- Rohini only to vanish. See more at http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/maha/krishnalore/ <http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/maha/krishnalore/> 8) MBh has footprints of 15 years and 36 years. The first is through two solar eclipses and position of Saturn stated once in RohiNi and again in Vishakha. The second longer period is through the eclipse heralding the end of the Yadavas as interpreted by Krishna. Ignoring the seemingly contradictory position of Saturn is to throw the baby along with the bath tub. Suryaputra can be taken to be a comet, but not Shanaiscara. 9) A comment on two eclipses at 13 day interval: Many capable people have worked on this and arrived at solutions satisfactory to themselves. But we have to first ponder over the text to give this as data to our computers to avoid GIGO. The famous shloka reads Candra-suryAvubhau grastau eka mAse trayodshIm (bhI.p. 3.29) This is interpreted by many as two eclipses at interval of 13 days. What the astronomical tradition of the country has to say on this? The commentary of Utpala on Brihatsamhita should be read by every one interested in the above verse. Utpala quotes it as 'ekamAse trayodashe'. He understands it as the thirteenth month=adhika mAsa. He is quite clear on this. " evam atra adhika mAse yaduktam tadeva shobhanam r.shi vacanAt ekamAse trayodasha-iti " . In the VaraNasi Sampurananada Sanskrit Univ edition by KC Dvivedi a foot note appears to state that ekamAsIm trayodashIm iti prAmAdikah pATho vibhAti | So much for importance of textual criticism before advertising for spectacular planetarium softwares, used by NASA in arriving at the date of MBh! Is there evidence of similar Arshaprayoga in ancient texts? Yes. In the Shatapatha Br. In describing Manu's Flood the word used for year is samA. (1.8.1.[5] sa yatithau tatsamAm...). SayaNa clearly says this is Arsha and explains it as 'samAyAm' in Saptami-vibhakti. 10) Those arguing for c 3000 BC date for MB have to sort out the Shatapatha text also. According to them what would be the date for Manu's Flood appearing for the first time in Sh.Br? This appears in MB also as an ancient incident. 11) About Horses in MB, when Krishna is approaching Hastinapura for rapproachment between the cousins in the Udyoga parvan, Dhritarashtra syas had he known about K's proposal he could have sent him the best 'KHARA (donkey/mule) drawn chariot which is the fastest in the country covering 14 yojanas per day. We have to accept that in MB horses were not the fastest or horses came at a later layer of the text. 12)A time-distance study of the places and the time periods mentioned are equally important in appreciating MB. This lead Kosambi to propose that Ur-Dwaraka could not have been the present day Dwaraka. My investigations also lead to similar conclusions. See http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/maha/dwaraka/ <http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/maha/dwaraka/> 13) MB knows the drying up of River Sarasvati. It connects the river with IriNA or the Ran-of-Kutch. It mentions that Rann would lose its sanctity since Sarasvati moved away towards the desert. Did this happen c 3000BC? For related discussions see http://www.scribd.com/doc/3246595/Geographical-Location-of-Vedic-Irina <http://www.scribd.com/doc/3246595/Geographical-Location-of-Vedic-Irina> thanks RN Iyengar IndiaArchaeology , JK <tiptronicus@> wrote: > > What about the passages in MB which refer to the invasion of Yavanas? > Would'nt that move the date of the epic or later redactions to a much later > date, post Alexander? > > JK > > > On 6/25/08, Paul Kekai Manansala p.manansala@ wrote: > > > > IndiaArchaeology , " Francesco Brighenti " frabrig@ > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IndiaArchaeology , " JK " <tiptronicus@> wrote: > > > > > > > If the date for MB is found as around 3000 B.C.E, doesn't it have > > > > to correlate with other data, like the arrival of horses in India? > > > > Or is it accepted that the original event was a minor battle which > > > > was embellished later? > > > > > > This point is of great relevance because horses and chariots are > > > essential to the narrative structure of the MBh, and they can in no > > > way be considered a later " embellishment " . Indeed, what would the MBh > > > be without horses and chariots? > > > > > > Question: were horse-drawn chariots used in warfare in India at 3000 > > > BCE? > > > > > > > I suspect your question is an archaeological one? > > > > In terms of archaeological evidence, there is no clue that horse-drawn > > chariots were ever used for warfare in India. > > > > Regards, > > Paul Kekai Manansala > > *Nusantao Martime Trade Network and World History<http://sambali.blogspot.com/> > > * > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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