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Munda-vedic, mleccha speakers and asur-kahani

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The monograph with maps and images is found at

sarasvatisindhu Click on Files. Click on

munda1.doc A copy of the document can also be obtained by email to:

kalyan97

 

Some key cultural markers of the people of the Sarasvati civilization are:

 

·women wearing sindur on the parting of the hair;

·a value system which treats water-bodies such as pus.karin.i as

sacred and provides for water drainage systems (exemplified by the

existence of brick-lined tanks and brick-lined drains); and

·working with metals.

 

These three markers point to the presence of Munda speakers in the

civilization area which can be further described as a linguistic area,

with the speakers of Vedic absorbing features from Munda and Prakr.ts

over an extended period of cultural interactions.

 

The language of the civilization was mleccha, not unlike the later-day

ardhama_gadhi, an anariya language used by Mahavira in his discourses

on jaina ariya dhamma. There are many mleccha or munda words in Vedic

apart from the absorption of indigenous traditions such as e_mu_s.a

and dhrumbhu_li. The language of the civilization evolved in a

linguistic area with many features drawn from languages such as

samskr.tam, prakr.ts, nahali, santali, munda which evolved into the

modern-day mosaic of bharatiya languages, further embellished by a

cultural continuity which traces the roots of bharatiya culture on the

banks of rivers Sarasvati and Ganga. This monograph presents textual

and archaeological evidences of this indigenous evolution of culture

and cultural continuity for over five millennia in Bharat.

 

Hieroglyphs are rebus representations as in Egyptian hieroglyphs where

a bird is shown for the syllable 'ur'. Similarly, to depict a kut.i

'furnace' a picture is used: kut.hi 'womb or pubes' or kut.i 'tree'.

The language used is proto-indian or proto-bharatiya, mleccha, the

spoken dialect of the times, a proto-ardhama_gadhi_ not unlike

ardhama_gadhi_ used by Mahavira to propagate Jaina ariya dhamma.

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Srinivasan Kalyanaraman wrote:

 

> The language of the civilization was mleccha, not unlike the later-day

> ardhama_gadhi, an anariya language used by Mahavira in his discourses

> on jaina ariya dhamma.

 

this is a bit striking.

 

Just to inform readers of this list: up to now, it was thought (not without

good reason, it seems to me) that Ardhamagadhi is a Middle-Indic language of

the IE family (i.e. aryan, if you prefer that term).

 

The new Ardhamagadhi-German dictionary by Prof. Mylius lists for each entry

the pertaining Sanskrit word, thus showing at the first glance where the words

come from.

 

This does not imply, of course, that Ardhamagadhi does not also have some

words of non-aryan origin.

 

all the best!

agnes

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There is different between language and prakrit .Ardhamagadhi was a prakrit and not language .Prakrit is an unliterary dialect of common people.We cant call it language

 

 

 

 

agnes korn <a.korn wrote: Srinivasan Kalyanaraman wrote:> The language of the civilization was mleccha, not unlike the later-day> ardhama_gadhi, an anariya language used by Mahavira in his discourses> on jaina ariya dhamma.this is a bit striking.Just to inform readers of this list: up to now, it was thought (not withoutgood reason, it seems to me) that Ardhamagadhi is a Middle-Indic language ofthe IE family (i.e. aryan, if you prefer that term).The new Ardhamagadhi-German dictionary by Prof. Mylius lists for each entrythe pertaining Sanskrit word, thus showing at the first glance where the wordscome from.This does not imply, of course, that Ardhamagadhi does not also have somewords of non-aryan origin.all the best!agnes

 

India Matrimony: Find your life partner

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Dear all,

 

I suppose Dr. Kalyanaraman used anariya in the sense of 'non-noble', and I

agree with that statement. There is not a necessary relation between arya

and IE. These are different concepts, once mistakenly used one for another.

 

Carlos E.G. Barbosa

 

-

agnes korn

Re: Munda-vedic, mleccha speakers and asur-kahani

 

 

Srinivasan Kalyanaraman wrote:

 

> The language of the civilization was mleccha, not unlike the later-day

> ardhama_gadhi, an anariya language used by Mahavira in his discourses

> on jaina ariya dhamma.

 

this is a bit striking.

 

Just to inform readers of this list: up to now, it was thought (not without

good reason, it seems to me) that Ardhamagadhi is a Middle-Indic language of

the IE family (i.e. aryan, if you prefer that term).

 

The new Ardhamagadhi-German dictionary by Prof. Mylius lists for each entry

the pertaining Sanskrit word, thus showing at the first glance where the

words

come from.

 

This does not imply, of course, that Ardhamagadhi does not also have some

words of non-aryan origin.

 

all the best!

agnes

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this is even more striking.

 

Why on earth is the dialect of the common people not a language????

 

By the way, Ardhamagadhi is even a literary language. As Srinivasan

Kalyanaraman correctly stated, the holy scriptures of the Jaina religion

are in this language. There is a grammar, dictionaries and everything.

(Even if no one had wriotten a grammar or dictionary yet and if no holy

scriptures were laid down in this idiom, it would surely be a language.

What else should it be.)

 

all the best

agnes

 

 

aslam rasoolpuri wrote:

 

>

>

There is different between language and prakrit .Ardhamagadhi was a

prakrit and not language .Prakrit is an unliterary dialect of common

people.We cant call it language

 

 

 

>

>

>

> agnes korn <a.korn wrote:

>

> Srinivasan Kalyanaraman wrote:

>

> > The language of the civilization was mleccha,

> not unlike the later-day

> > ardhama_gadhi, an anariya language used by

> Mahavira in his discourses

> > on jaina ariya dhamma.

>

> this is a bit striking.

>

> Just to inform readers of this list: up to now, it

> was thought (not without

> good reason, it seems to me) that Ardhamagadhi is

> a Middle-Indic language of

> the IE family (i.e. aryan, if you prefer that

> term).

>

> The new Ardhamagadhi-German dictionary by Prof.

> Mylius lists for each entry

> the pertaining Sanskrit word, thus showing at the

> first glance where the words

> come from.

>

> This does not imply, of course, that Ardhamagadhi

> does not also have some

> words of non-aryan origin.

>

> all the best!

> agnes

>

>

>

>

> India Matrimony: Find your life partner online.

>

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Sir

You may be right ,but some old linguists say that only Sanskrit was a language at that time ,because it was literary and vedic language and othe languages were only prakrits like Pali ,Magadhi ,Shoreshni ,Pishachi etc,because these were not literary languages.According to some linguists these prakrits were unliterary ,vulgar ,uncivilized dialects of Sanskrit which was the mother language of these prakrits or apbharnashas .Only dictionary .grammar ,idoms etc don 't makes language to a Parkrit .All prakrits had its own grammars ,dictionarris and idoms,but these wewr not languages

 

 

 

 

agnes korn <a.korn wrote: this is even more striking.Why on earth is the dialect of the common people not a language????By the way, Ardhamagadhi is even a literary language. As SrinivasanKalyanaraman correctly stated, the holy scriptures of the Jaina religionare in this language. There is a grammar, dictionaries and everything.(Even if no one had wriotten a grammar or dictionary yet and if no holyscriptures were laid down in this idiom, it would surely be a language.What else should it be.)all the bestagnesaslam rasoolpuri wrote:>> There is different between language and prakrit .Ardhamagadhi was a prakrit and not language .Prakrit is an unliterary dialect of common people.We cant call it language>>>> agnes korn

<a.korn wrote:>> Srinivasan Kalyanaraman wrote:>> > The language of the civilization was mleccha,> not unlike the later-day> > ardhama_gadhi, an anariya language used by> Mahavira in his discourses> > on jaina ariya dhamma.>> this is a bit striking.>> Just to inform readers of this list: up to now, it> was thought (not

without> good reason, it seems to me) that Ardhamagadhi is> a Middle-Indic language of> the IE family (i.e. aryan, if you prefer that> term).>> The new Ardhamagadhi-German dictionary by Prof.> Mylius lists for each entry> the pertaining Sanskrit word, thus showing at the> first glance where the words> come

from.>> This does not imply, of course, that Ardhamagadhi> does not also have some> words of non-aryan origin.>> all the best!> agnes>>>>> India Matrimony: Find your life partner online.>

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Sir

You may be right ,but some old linguists say that only Sanskrit was a language at that time ,because it was literary and vedic language and other languages were only prakrits like Pali ,Magadhi ,Shoreshni ,Pishachi etc,because these were not literary languages.According to some linguists these prakrits were unliterary ,vulgar ,uncivilized dialects of Sanskrit which was the mother language of these prakrits or apbharnashas .Only dictionary .grammar ,idoms etc don 't makes language to a Parkrit .All prakrits had its own grammars ,dictionarris and idoms,but these were not languages at that time ,so at the time of Mahveer it was not language.but a prakrit

 

 

 

 

agnes korn <a.korn wrote: this is even more striking.Why on earth is the dialect of the common people not a language????By the way, Ardhamagadhi is even a literary language. As SrinivasanKalyanaraman correctly stated, the holy scriptures of the Jaina religionare in this language. There is a grammar, dictionaries and everything.(Even if no one had wriotten a grammar or dictionary yet and if no holyscriptures were laid down in this idiom, it would surely be a language.What else should it be.)all the bestagnesaslam rasoolpuri wrote:>> There is different between language and prakrit .Ardhamagadhi was a prakrit and not language .Prakrit is an unliterary dialect of common people.We cant call it language>>>> agnes korn

<a.korn wrote:>> Srinivasan Kalyanaraman wrote:>> > The language of the civilization was mleccha,> not unlike the later-day> > ardhama_gadhi, an anariya language used by> Mahavira in his discourses> > on jaina ariya dhamma.>> this is a bit striking.>> Just to inform readers of this list: up to now, it> was thought (not

without> good reason, it seems to me) that Ardhamagadhi is> a Middle-Indic language of> the IE family (i.e. aryan, if you prefer that> term).>> The new Ardhamagadhi-German dictionary by Prof.> Mylius lists for each entry> the pertaining Sanskrit word, thus showing at the> first glance where the words> come

from.>> This does not imply, of course, that Ardhamagadhi> does not also have some> words of non-aryan origin.>> all the best!> agnes>>>>> India Matrimony: Find your life partner online.>

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That's a really bizarre definition of a language.

 

If only literary languages are " languages " then you've just deprived the

spoken languages of most of the human beings that have ever lived of their

linguistic status.

 

Also, to correct you on one detail, Pali did have a literature. The Buddhist

scriptures are written in it. In fact the name Pali is the name of the

texts, not of the language.

 

To quote from the Pali Text Society website:

 

" Paali is the name given to the language of the texts of Theravaada

Buddhism, although the commentarial tradition of the Theravaadins states

that the language of the canon is Maagadhii, the language spoken by Gotama

Buddha. The term Paali originally referred to a canonical text or passage

rather than to a language and its current use is based on a misunderstanding

which occurred several centuries ago. The language of the Theravaadin canon

is a version of a dialect of Middle Indo-AAryan, not Maagadhii, created by

the homogenisation of the dialects in which the teachings of the Buddha were

orally recorded and transmitted. This became necessary as Buddhism was

transmitted far beyond the area of its origin and as the Buddhist monastic

order codified his teachings. "

 

Daniel

 

 

-

aslam rasoolpuri

 

Sunday, August 08, 2004 10:12 AM

Re: Munda-vedic, mleccha speakers and asur-kahani

 

 

Sir

You may be right ,but some old linguists say that only Sanskrit was a

language at that time ,because it was literary and vedic language and othe

languages were only prakrits like Pali ,Magadhi ,Shoreshni ,Pishachi

etc,because these were not literary languages.According to some linguists

these prakrits were unliterary ,vulgar ,uncivilized dialects of Sanskrit

which was the mother language of these prakrits or apbharnashas .Only

dictionary .grammar ,idoms etc don 't makes language to a Parkrit .All

prakrits had its own grammars ,dictionarris and idoms,but these were not

languages

 

 

 

 

agnes korn <a.korn wrote:

this is even more striking.

 

Why on earth is the dialect of the common people not a language????

 

By the way, Ardhamagadhi is even a literary language. As Srinivasan

Kalyanaraman correctly stated, the holy scriptures of the Jaina religion

are in this language. There is a grammar, dictionaries and everything.

(Even if no one had wriotten a grammar or dictionary yet and if no holy

scriptures were laid down in this idiom, it would surely be a language.

What else should it be.)

 

all the best

agnes

 

 

aslam rasoolpuri wrote:

 

>

>

There is different between language and prakrit .Ardhamagadhi was a

prakrit and not language .Prakrit is an unliterary dialect of common

people.We cant call it language

 

 

 

>

>

>

> agnes korn <a.korn wrote:

>

> Srinivasan Kalyanaraman wrote:

>

> > The language of the civilization was mleccha,

> not unlike the later-day

> > ardhama_gadhi, an anariya language used by

> Mahavira in his discourses

> > on jaina ariya dhamma.

>

> this is a bit striking.

>

> Just to inform readers of this list: up to now, it

> was thought (not without

> good reason, it seems to me) that Ardhamagadhi is

> a Middle-Indic language of

> the IE family (i.e. aryan, if you prefer that

> term).

>

> The new Ardhamagadhi-German dictionary by Prof.

> Mylius lists for each entry

> the pertaining Sanskrit word, thus showing at the

> first glance where the words

> come from.

>

> This does not imply, of course, that Ardhamagadhi

> does not also have some

> words of non-aryan origin.

>

> all the best!

> agnes

>

>

>

>

> India Matrimony: Find your life partner online.

>

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The name paali must have come from the word nepaal the birthblance of Budha. He has used the local language to propogate his ideas and not Sanskrit.

 

PKRDaniel Baum <daniel wrote:

That's a really bizarre definition of a language.If only literary languages are "languages" then you've just deprived thespoken languages of most of the human beings that have ever lived of theirlinguistic status.Also, to correct you on one detail, Pali did have a literature. The Buddhistscriptures are written in it. In fact the name Pali is the name of thetexts, not of the language.To quote from the Pali Text Society website:"Paali is the name given to the language of the texts of TheravaadaBuddhism, although the commentarial tradition of the Theravaadins statesthat the language of the canon is Maagadhii, the language spoken by GotamaBuddha. The term Paali originally referred to a canonical text or passagerather than to a language and its current use is based on a misunderstandingwhich occurred several centuries

ago. The language of the Theravaadin canonis a version of a dialect of Middle Indo-AAryan, not Maagadhii, created bythe homogenisation of the dialects in which the teachings of the Buddha wereorally recorded and transmitted. This became necessary as Buddhism wastransmitted far beyond the area of its origin and as the Buddhist monasticorder codified his teachings. "Daniel-aslam rasoolpuri Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 10:12 AMRe: Munda-vedic, mleccha speakers and asur-kahaniSir You may be right ,but some old linguists say that only Sanskrit was alanguage at that time ,because it was literary and vedic language and othelanguages were only prakrits like Pali ,Magadhi ,Shoreshni ,Pishachietc,because these were not literary languages.According to some linguiststhese prakrits were unliterary ,vulgar

,uncivilized dialects of Sanskritwhich was the mother language of these prakrits or apbharnashas .Onlydictionary .grammar ,idoms etc don 't makes language to a Parkrit .Allprakrits had its own grammars ,dictionarris and idoms,but these were notlanguagesagnes korn <a.korn wrote:this is even more striking.Why on earth is the dialect of the common people not a language????By the way, Ardhamagadhi is even a literary language. As SrinivasanKalyanaraman correctly stated, the holy scriptures of the Jaina religionare in this language. There is a grammar, dictionaries and everything.(Even if no one had wriotten a grammar or dictionary yet and if no holyscriptures were laid down in this idiom, it would surely be a language.What else should it be.)all the bestagnesaslam rasoolpuri wrote:>> There is different between

language and prakrit .Ardhamagadhi was a prakrit and not language .Prakrit is an unliterary dialect of common people.We cant call it language>>>> agnes korn <a.korn wrote:>> Srinivasan Kalyanaraman wrote:>> > The language of the civilization was mleccha,> not unlike the later-day> > ardhama_gadhi, an anariya language used by> Mahavira in his discourses> > on jaina ariya

dhamma.>> this is a bit striking.>> Just to inform readers of this list: up to now, it> was thought (not without> good reason, it seems to me) that Ardhamagadhi is> a Middle-Indic language of> the IE family (i.e. aryan, if you prefer that> term).>> The new Ardhamagadhi-German dictionary by Prof.> Mylius lists for each

entry> the pertaining Sanskrit word, thus showing at the> first glance where the words> come from.>> This does not imply, of course, that Ardhamagadhi> does not also have some> words of non-aryan origin.>> all the best!> agnes>>>>> India Matrimony: Find your life partner online.>

 

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Dear Aslam Rasoolpuri,

 

terms like " Prakrit " and " vernacular " are not terms of linguistics in

the strict sense.

 

They refer to cultural phenomena:

 

Broadly speaking, the term Prakrit was used to distinguish spoken Middle

Indic languages from Sanskrit as the language of scholarship and Pali as

language of the Buddhist texts.

This is a distinction of function and of text sorts, but not one of

language or some other thing.

 

Furthermore, in some countries, terms like " vernacular " and " dialect "

are used for the speech of minorities since the government is afraid

that minorities might want to be independent from the central government

if their speech is recognised as " language " .

In those countries, some linguists also use those terms since they want

to avoid problems with the government.

It is obvious that this is a political question, not a linguistic one.

 

From a linguistic point of view, any human being's speech is a language

since it always has a certain grammar, lexicon and everything which is

necessary for a language. The only problem might be that the speech of

some individuals is not researched enough yet.

Also, there is no such thing as a " perfect grammar " and " uncivilised

grammar " . Who should be allowed to decide about that, and according to

what criteria???? It might be a matter of taste which grammar we find

nice, but this again is obviously not a scientific approach.

 

All the best!

agnes

 

aslam rasoolpuri wrote:

 

>

>

Sir

 

If we accept your arguments then how we shall differenciete between

language and Prakrit.

 

>

> Daniel Baum <daniel wrote:

>

> That's a really bizarre definition of a language.

>

> If only literary languages are " languages " then

> you've just deprived the

> spoken languages of most of the human beings that

> have ever lived of their

> linguistic status.

>

> Also, to correct you on one detail, Pali did have

> a literature. The Buddhist

> scriptures are written in it. In fact the name

> Pali is the name of the

> texts, not of the language.

>

> To quote from the Pali Text Society website:

>

> " Paali is the name given to the language of the

> texts of Theravaada

> Buddhism, although the commentarial tradition of

> the Theravaadins states

> that the language of the canon is Maagadhii, the

> language spoken by Gotama

> Buddha. The term Paali originally referred to a

> canonical text or passage

> rather than to a language and its current use is

> based on a misunderstanding

> which occurred several centuries ago. The language

> of the Theravaadin canon

> is a version of a dialect of Middle Indo-AAryan,

> not Maagadhii, created by

> the homogenisation of the dialects in which the

> teachings of the Buddha were

> orally recorded and transmitted. This became

> necessary as Buddhism was

> transmitted far beyond the area of its origin and

> as the Buddhist monastic

> order codified his teachings. "

>

> Daniel

>

>

> -

> aslam rasoolpuri

>

> Sunday, August 08, 2004 10:12 AM

> Re: Munda-vedic, mleccha

> speakers and asur-kahani

>

>

> Sir

> You may be right ,but some old linguists say

> that only Sanskrit was a

> language at that time ,because it was literary and

> vedic language and othe

> languages were only prakrits like Pali ,Magadhi

> ,Shoreshni ,Pishachi

> etc,because these were not literary

> languages.According to some linguists

> these prakrits were unliterary ,vulgar

> ,uncivilized dialects of Sanskrit

> which was the mother language of these prakrits or

> apbharnashas .Only

> dictionary .grammar ,idoms etc don 't makes

> language to a Parkrit .All

> prakrits had its own grammars ,dictionarris and

> idoms,but these were not

> languages

>

>

>

>

> agnes korn <a.korn wrote:

> this is even more striking.

>

> Why on earth is the dialect of the common people

> not a language????

>

> By the way, Ardhamagadhi is even a literary

> language. As Srinivasan

> Kalyanaraman correctly stated, the holy scriptures

> of the Jaina religion

> are in this language. There is a grammar,

> dictionaries and everything.

> (Even if no one had wriotten a grammar or

> dictionary yet and if no holy

> scriptures were laid down in this idiom, it would

> surely be a language.

> What else should it be.)

>

> all the best

> agnes

>

>

> aslam rasoolpuri wrote:

>

> >

> >

> There is different between language and prakrit

> .Ardhamagadhi was a

> prakrit and not language .Prakrit is an

> unliterary dialect of common

> people.We cant call it language

>

>

>

> >

> >

> >

> > agnes korn <a.korn

> wrote:

> >

> > Srinivasan Kalyanaraman wrote:

> >

> > > The language of the civilization was

> mleccha,

> > not unlike the later-day

> > > ardhama_gadhi, an anariya language

> used by

> > Mahavira in his discourses

> > > on jaina ariya dhamma.

> >

> > this is a bit striking.

> >

> > Just to inform readers of this list:

> up to now, it

> > was thought (not without

> > good reason, it seems to me) that

> Ardhamagadhi is

> > a Middle-Indic language of

> > the IE family (i.e. aryan, if you

> prefer that

> > term).

> >

> > The new Ardhamagadhi-German dictionary

> by Prof.

> > Mylius lists for each entry

> > the pertaining Sanskrit word, thus

> showing at the

> > first glance where the words

> > come from.

> >

> > This does not imply, of course, that

> Ardhamagadhi

> > does not also have some

> > words of non-aryan origin.

> >

> > all the best!

> > agnes

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > India Matrimony: Find your life partner

> online.

> >

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