Guest guest Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 Dear Mr Viswanathan, Jay Jinendra Going in the same direction, how come Jainism is so widely ignored? It is an ancient religion of India. It is widely practised in India. It has contributed significantly to the literature of Prakrit, Sanskrit, Apabhramsha, Kannada and Tamil. It has contributed significantly to the Indian art and architecture, culture and so many aspects of life. Despite that, it has been largely ignored by Indologists and Sanskritists. Why? M On 08/08/07, Sankar Viswanathan <sankarrukku wrote: > > As a student of Indology, I wonder why Indology mainly concentrates on > study of Sanskrit. > > Though Pali is one of the old Indian languages ( it was in fact the > language spoken by the people) the study of Pali literature seems to > have been given a secondary importance in Indology. > > Even where the study was done it was classified as Buddhist studies. > The literature is classified as Buddhist Literature. > > How come Buddhist literature is not generally classified as Indian > Literature? > > Is it because of the reluctance of our colonial rulers to accept > Buddhism as an Indian religion? > > One of the dew exceptions was Sir Charles Elliot who wrote the > Hinduism and Buddhism, An Historical Sketch. > > Just because it is no longer widely practiced in India does not make > Buddhism non Indian. > > May be I am totally off base? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Manish Modi wrote: > Going in the same direction, how come Jainism is so widely ignored? This is a very interesting question indeed. I believe there are at least three reasons: 1. Hinduism is, apart from being the majority religion, mostly expressed in Sanskrit, starting with the Vedas. Therefore, it became part of the European quest for " Indo-European " or " Aryan " roots 150-200 years ago. Since Sanskrit was the most ancient Indic language, it also got pride of place. 2. Buddhism is a world religion, and was one already more than a 100 years ago. Many Westerners felt attracted to Buddhism, so they were personally motivated to study it. Hence great interest in Pali and Buddhist Sanskrit. 3. Jainism is a minority religion (only 4,5 million believers, I think), and until recently not well known outside India by non-specialists. Thus it lacked both political and cultural clout, even if it had been a major religion in the Medieval period and before. In today's situation, when Indological departments are closed down or reduced in size, there is little scope for improving the situation. Specialists cost money, so I am afraid that not much will change. But, as V. V. Raman points out, the situation is not much better for Tamil. And may I be so rude as to point out that there are other Dravidian languages than Tamil, also with ancient literatures, such as Kanada, Telugu and Malayalam? In fact, Indology has always been a bit one-sided: too much Indo-Aryan, too little Dravidian. And now, when India is rapidly developing into a major power, too little money, too few scholars, and too few students altogether. Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 > > INDOLOGY > [iNDOLOGY ] On Behalf Of MANISH MODI > Friday, August 10, 2007 4:07 AM > INDOLOGY > Re: [Y-Indology] Why is Indology Sanskrit oriented? > > Dear Mr Viswanathan, > Jay Jinendra > > Going in the same direction, how come Jainism is so widely ignored? > > It is an ancient religion of India. > > It is widely practised in India. > > It has contributed significantly to the literature of > Prakrit, Sanskrit, Apabhramsha, Kannada and Tamil. > > It has contributed significantly to the Indian art and > architecture, culture and so many aspects of life. > > Despite that, it has been largely ignored by Indologists and > Sanskritists. > Why? > > M > > > On 08/08/07, Sankar Viswanathan <sankarrukku wrote: > > > > As a student of Indology, I wonder why Indology mainly > concentrates > > on study of Sanskrit. > > > > Though Pali is one of the old Indian languages ( it was in fact the > > language spoken by the people) the study of Pali literature > seems to > > have been given a secondary importance in Indology. > > > > Even where the study was done it was classified as Buddhist studies. > > The literature is classified as Buddhist Literature. > > > > How come Buddhist literature is not generally classified as Indian > > Literature? > > > > Is it because of the reluctance of our colonial rulers to accept > > Buddhism as an Indian religion? > > > > One of the dew exceptions was Sir Charles Elliot who wrote the > > Hinduism and Buddhism, An Historical Sketch. > > > > Just because it is no longer widely practiced in India does > not make > > Buddhism non Indian. > > > > May be I am totally off base? > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Actually, Western scholars encountered Hinduism in the Tamil and Malayalam speaking South before the North, and got direct access to the Vedas long after other texts and word of mouth. The fact that the scholars were missionaries rather than academics doesn't change this. " (a) Indology is a creation of Western scholars. They begn discovering Indic religions in the North of India, and first got to know them through the Vedic texts. " Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 << One could also ask: " Why does Indology mainly concentrate on the study of Sanskrit, and practically ignore Tamil altogether? " >> Another reasons could be: (1) Tamil is a regional language restricted to a very small area, whereas Sanskrit is in use all over India, including Tamilnadu. (2) Literaturewise also, Sanskrit has much vaster literature than Tamil. Narayan Prasad August 15, 2007 INDOLOGY [iNDOLOGY ] On Behalf Of V V Raman Thursday, August 09, 2007 9:13 PM INDOLOGY ; INDOLOGY RE: [Y-Indology] Why is Indology Sanskrit oriented? One could also ask: " Why does Indology mainly concentrate on the study of Sanskrit, and practically ignore Tamil altogether? " I suppose there are at least three answers to this question. (a) Indology is a creation of Western scholars. They begn discovering Indic religions in the North of India, and first got to know them through the Vedic texts. The translations of these drew more and more Western scholars to Sanskrit works. Later, Indian scholars, taking the queue from Western scholars, began to write profusely on Sanskrit works also. To this day, few Non-Tamil Hindu Indologists know much about the huge treasure-chest that is Tamil Hinduism. Even the Tamil Indologists (mostly Brahmins) have been more versed in Sanskrit than in Tamil. (b) Western universities have been fostering Sanskrit studies and departments considerably more than Tamil studies and departments. From the 18th century as of now topics that interest scholars in the West are the ones that set the tone even for the rest of the world. There are indications that this might change. © Indology is primarily intersted in Hinduism which has its roots in Vedic, hence Sanskritic works. V V. Raman August 9, 2007 Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release 8/13/2007 10:15 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 First, Indology is only a categorization by western scholars like Sinology and Egyptology. I had discussed this with a couple of Professors teaching Indology and related subjects. I sam giving a gist of my discussions. The interest in India was first kindled by the works of German Indologists. These scholars were mostly interested in ancient Indian literature. The first translations were of Sakunthalam and other Sanskrit literature by the German and English Indologists. These were translated and praised in the Europe much before the translation of the Vedas. The work of many early German Indologists have not been translated into English till date. One of my Indology professors told me “If you want to study Indology well you should learn German.†The study of Sanskrit started with its Literature, Philogy, and Grammar and then only Hinduism. Most of the early Indologists came first into contact with the Indians in Bengal presidency mainly Calcutta. The Indians they came into contact with were mostly the educated and the rich belonging to Brahmin, Kayastha and other castes. These people projected Sanskrit as the oldest Indian language and its literature as the best of Indian literature. They also projected the Vedas as the greatest Indian work (which it is) relating to Hinduism. Actually the influence of the Vedas inBengal is limited. It is more of a Tantric country. There were/are no Brahmins reciting Vedas in the oral tradition in Bengal. It also could explain the neglect of Jainism as the early Indologists may not have come in contact with the educated Jains. T. W. Rhys Davids studied Sanskrit under A.F. Stenzler , but since he was posted to Ceylon came to know about Theravada Buddhism and Pali manuscripts. He was involved in promoting Theravada Buddhism and PÄli scholarship in England. This shows that the local influence was a major factor. Again the amount of literature in Sanskrit is vast. Sanskrit was not commonly spoken even in the days of Mrichhakatika. But scholarly works were written in Sanskrit. It is very similar to the development in Europe where all scholarly works were written in Latin. In fact many of these works from Europe assumes knowledge of Latin. Now about Thamizh. (Tamil) Tamil was spoken only in parts of Madras presidency. Even here Telugu, Malayalam, and Kannada together formed the majority. Madras presidency itself was small because of the presence of three princely states viz. Hyderabad, Mysore, and Travancore. Again Tamil Nadu has been ruled by Non-Tamils for the last 600 years. The Nayaks, the Mahrattas, and the Nawabs were not Tamil speaking. The Nayaks encouraged migration from Telugu country and most of the local chieftains were also Telugus/Kannadigas. Even today the Telugu and Kannada speaking people form a sizable percentage of the population of Tamil Nadu. Though Caldwell proved that all the four South Indian languages have originated in Tamil, the fact remains that the speakers of other languages are reluctant to accept that, and do not show any interest in old Tamil language or tradition. I do not find name of any one from Southern India among the early Indologists.Even Caldwell is not mentioned. It is through the pioneering efforts of U. V. Swaminatha Iyer that the antiquity of old Tamil and its literature came to be known. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U._V._Swaminatha_Iyer http://www.geocities.com/visvaamithra/menu.html But Swaminatha Iyer is not accepted as an Indologist and his contribution to the Tamil language is ignored if not condemned for obvious reasons. Even after the formation of Linguistic states in 1956, the study of ancient Tamil has not picked up. One of the reasons being as I said earlier, the speakers of other Dravidian languages do not accept the origin of their language and show very little interest in Tamil. In fact they emphasize their affinity to Sanskrit rather than Tamil. INDOLOGY , venkat <ahvenkitesh wrote: > > During the times when the british ruled, The upper echelons of Tamil society > and especially the religious aspects were controlled by the Tamil brahmins > for whom portrayed Sanskrit as the pre-eminent language of Hinduism. > > In Kerala too, Sanskrit held sway as he language of the religion. Tamil was > taken seriously only with the advent of dravidianism. > > This should explain why Sanskrit was given more importance than other > languages. > > On 8/17/07, Rajesh Kochhar <rkochhar2000 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 I agree with the comments of Mr. Manish Modi. I wonder why the Jains of India and even from abroad (who are among the more economically comfortable communities anywhere in the world) don't establish a few chairs/departments in Indian universities for the study of Jainism which, from many perspectives, is one of the most civilized, non-hurting, and enlightened religions. It is a shame that the world (including many Hindus) knows so little about this religion of peace, philosophical sophistication, and idealistic commitment to non-violence. V. V. Raman August 30, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 Learned friends, Jay Jinendra I am sorry to see this forum used as a platform for right wing diatribes. The fact that Jains are a rich religious community does not take away the historical contribution of Prakrit to Indian literature. In any case, we were taught in school that one must not link language with religion. Yet one sees this happen all the time in India. Right wingers try to project Jains, an independent ancient RELIGION of India, as a SECT of Hinduism. But Prakrit goes for a toss even for these avowed defenders of ancient India. So we have no centres for the study of Prakrit other than what the Jains have funded themselves. In India, Hindus are not asked to fund Sanskrit studies, Buddhists are not asked to fund Pali studies, Muslims are not asked to fund Urdu studies. But Jains are always expected to fund Prakrit studies! Even BORI seems to be unwilling to complete the Prakrit Dictionary project unless it is funded by the Jain community. Very conveniently, the blame is laid at the door of Jains for being a community that spends more on rituals and not enough on academia. When the followers of other religions are not expected to fund the study the language that is associated with their religions, But the rules are different for Jains. The state of a lot of Sanskrit Depts in Indian universities is not very good. But this is true of Sanskrit Depts. everywhere in the world. Europe and US included. But at least the Sanskrit departments are there. Where is the Prakrit department? Jains are a minority religion of India and are perfectly justified in asking for Minority Status which has been guaranteed by the Constitution of India and has been granted to all other minorities, i.e. the Christians, the Muslims, the Sikhs and the Buddhists. So what is wrong with this demand that is rightful and just under Article 25C of the Constitution of India. Besides, the Prakrits were prevalent in Ancient and Medieval India. Prakrit was, in fact, the Janabhasha of India. It was used widely by her citizens. Hence, even in Sanskrit plays, the characters played by the common man speak in Prakrit and not Sanskrit. Maybe Mr Gupt should read the history of Prakrit literature (by Prof Jagish Chandra Jain, pub. Manohar Publishers). It would certainly clear certain cobwebs from his mind regarding the relevance and geographic spread of Prakrit in Ancient and Medieval India and its place in classical Indian literature. The last form of Prakrit, known as Apabhramsha, has had more to do with the formation of modern Indian languages than Sanskrit. Any philologically trained Indologist can confirm this to Mr Gupt. Another baseless charge leveled by Mr Gupt against the Jain community is that it is not focused on education. This is not true and only a couple of years ago, a national survey held by the Times of India revealed that Jains are the most literate Religious Community in India. I would also respectfully request Mr Gupt to limit his political diatribes to the various emails he sends on the net. This is not the forum to air his views on Nehru or dump all non right wing historians as Marxists. In peace, Manish Modi On 05/09/2007, Bharat Gupt <bharatgupt wrote: > > Being married into a family (or to put it the old way, to a jain lady, and > hence in a life long allliance with the Jains), > I regret to say that Jains have laid much less emphasis on education than > other rich communities like the Parsis and kayasthas. > Undoubtedly there are some very eminent names of great excellence from > Jains but seeing the money they have they could have done > much better and hence aquired a greater clout in all fields. Like ALL > OHTER sects in India, Jains spend huge amounts of > temples, ahikshetras, munis and festivals, communty food distributions. > But they do not invest in schools and univs that > can combine the classical with the modern. They demand monority status and > job reservation but not a change in the > Income Tax Act to get greater tax concessions for opening educational > institutes. Like other Indians they have fallen > prey to the permit raj of the socialist state. > > If all Indians can open universities and education is decontrolled, Jains > who are comparatively rich, can open dozens of chairs > for magadhi, ardhamagadhi and other prakrits. The complaint of Mr. Modi, > that there are not suffiecient chairs > for Prakrit as compared to Sanskrit is a rather unfair. Firstly, Sanskrit > has been an all India language and covers a greater span in time, > with great contributions from Jain achaaryas themselves. Secondly, instead > of complaining that from the kitty of the > study of classics, the jains are getting a bad deal, one should first seek > redressal for the share of classical studies > as a whole. The departments of classics even for Greek, Latin, and other > ancient languages are shrinking in the West. > > In India, Nehru's socialism and the later day Marxist dominated > educational policy has considered religion as a suspect area and hence all > classical studies as regressive. Even the Sanskrit departments are > fossilized and antiquated and a sanskrit scholar in India commands no > respect except in very traditional circles. > > Instead of falling into the majority-minority syndrome that our countrymen > are so prone to after spending two generations > under mainipulations by educationists contemptuous of religion and ancient > values, Indians should strive for a better > deal for classics as a whole within India and outside it. An example of > Jain apathy: Amsterdam has some of the > world's richest diamond merchants, mostly Jains, but they have not > established a single institution devoted > to Jain studies in Belgium. > > This post is not to fault Jains but show that their problem regarding > heritage preservation is just the same as of all other Indians . > with regards, > Bharat Gupt > Associate Professor, CVS, Delhi University, > Founder member and Trustee > International Forum for India's Heritage. > PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA. > mobile: +91-98100 77914 > home phones: +91-11-2724-1490,+91-129-404-4590 > email: bharatgupt > homepage: http://personal.vsnl.com/bharatgupt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 MANISH MODI schreef: > Learned friends, > Jay Jinendra > > I am sorry to see this forum used as a platform for right wing > diatribes. [...] > I would also respectfully request Mr Gupt to limit his political > diatribes to the various emails he sends on the net. This is not the > forum to air his views on Nehru or dump all non right wing historians > as Marxists. On the subject of sloppy argumentation, I just cannot resist the temptation to point out two more, simple and factual, errors by Mr Gupt: > An example of Jain apathy: Amsterdam has some of the > world's richest diamond merchants, mostly Jains, but they have not > established a single institution devoted > to Jain studies in Belgium. > (a) Most of the diamond merchants in Amsterdam are not Jainas, (b) Amsterdam is in the Netherlands, not in Belgium. Robert Zydenbos Inst. of Indology Munich University Germany Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 And shouldn't Persian literature and language, at least, be included in any broad definition of " indology " ? And some - thought not all - NIA specialists would feel happy and comfortable to call what they do indology. Dominik INDOLOGY , Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse wrote: > > Manish Modi wrote: > > > Going in the same direction, how come Jainism is so widely ignored? > > This is a very interesting question indeed. I believe there are at least > three reasons: > > 1. Hinduism is, apart from being the majority religion, mostly expressed in > Sanskrit, starting with the Vedas. Therefore, it became part of the European > quest for " Indo-European " or " Aryan " roots 150-200 years ago. Since Sanskrit > was the most ancient Indic language, it also got pride of place. > > 2. Buddhism is a world religion, and was one already more than a 100 years > ago. Many Westerners felt attracted to Buddhism, so they were personally > motivated to study it. Hence great interest in Pali and Buddhist Sanskrit. > > 3. Jainism is a minority religion (only 4,5 million believers, I think), and > until recently not well known outside India by non-specialists. Thus it > lacked both political and cultural clout, even if it had been a major > religion in the Medieval period and before. > > In today's situation, when Indological departments are closed down or > reduced in size, there is little scope for improving the situation. > Specialists cost money, so I am afraid that not much will change. But, as V. > V. Raman points out, the situation is not much better for Tamil. And may I > be so rude as to point out that there are other Dravidian languages than > Tamil, also with ancient literatures, such as Kanada, Telugu and Malayalam? > In fact, Indology has always been a bit one-sided: too much Indo-Aryan, too > little Dravidian. And now, when India is rapidly developing into a major > power, too little money, too few scholars, and too few students altogether. > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo - Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > E-mail: lmfosse > http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 <And shouldn't Persian literature and language, at least, be included in any broad definition of " indology " ? > One might add, " And should not English literature and language, at least, be included in any broad definition of " Indology " ? I don't see the connection between such questions and what Mr. Modi asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2007 Report Share Posted September 23, 2007 I was somewhat surprised to see Prof Gupt's view: > I regret to say that Jains have laid much less emphasis > on education than other rich communities like the Parsis > and kayasthas. I am not quite sure what he means by that, and how those perceptions were formed. The Jains (who are composed of a number of diverse communities in several regions of India) have always had significantly higher levels of literacy compared with the rest of Indian society. In some parts of India, they form a large fraction of the intelligencia, even though they are only a tiny fraction of the population. Looking at the data going back to 1920s, the Jain women also have had a higher level of literacy. Some of the scholars had noted during the early British period, in some parts of Rajasthan, education was largely provided by the institution of Jain Yatis, and sometimes the Jains constituted all of the intelligencia outside of the royal courts. Jain bhandaras of Patan and Jaisalmer are among the the oldest libraries in India. Nearly all of the known Apabhramsha literature is of Jain origin. Many Jain centers of learning (headed by Bhattarakas) have several centuries of history. A large number of educational institutions are run by Jain organizations for public benefit in several parts of India. It must be remembered that the number of Jains is extremely small, currently about 0.4% of India's population. A comparison with Kayasthas would perhaps be inappropriate, Kayasthas having been professional scribes. Kayashthas are not thought to be a rich community, thus they don't quite have the tradition of donating for academic charities. In recent past a few industrial houses, Tatas among the Parsis, Birlas among the Maheshwaris for example, have established some very well known institutions of learning like the IISc or BITS. There has not been a comparable Jain house, except perhaps for Sahu Jains, who have recently emerged from a period of financial difficulties. Their support for scholarship cannot be doubted; they established the Bharatiya Janapitha, which gives the coveted Jnanapitha Awards, and which has published a large number of Prakrit and Apabhramsha texts. They had also established a chair at in Mysore University. Incidentally Indological publishers Motilal Banarsidass and Munshiram Manoharlal are both Jain. The Jain community of Amsterdam is actually very new and very small, although a few of them have indeed become very wealthy. There is some truth in Prof's Gupt's criticism that > Jains spend huge amounts of temples, ahikshetras, munis and > festivals, communty food distributions This in fact is frequently discussed within the Jain community. However perhaps some of that activity is necessary for Jainism to remain vital and to survive. One is reminded about Buddhism in India. Buddhists had the greatest institutions of learning, had the greatest libraries and some of the best logicians. Yet Buddhism did not survive in India, even among the Kayasthas who had strong affinity to Buddhism. Yashwant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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