Guest guest Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Dear Rohini, the historians of Alexander the Great (326 BCE) already wrote about sati. I think you might find some answers to your questions in 1) Enrica Garzilli, " First Greek and Latin Documents on Sahagamana and Some Connected Problems " part 1, in Indo-Iranian Journal, vol. 40, no. 3 (July 1997), pp. 205 - 243. (The article deals with the recommended custom for Hindu women of burning alive on their husband's pyre, called sati, in unedited Greek and Latin documents and in Sanskrit literature) 2) Idem, " First Greek and Latin Documents on Sahagamana and Some Connected Problems " part 2, in Indo-Iranian Journal, vol. 40, no. 4 (November 1997), pp. 339 - 365. (The 2nd part of the article deals with sati in mediaeval law books in the light of the description of the suggested self-sacrifice by fire in unedited first Greek and Latin documents) Best, Enrica Garzilli www.asiatica.org So my questions - How old is the practice of sati? When did it start? Why? Was it practised all over india? What evidence can one find - apart from that contained in the history textbooks? (From my very limited knowledge, the earliest mention of sati that I can recall is in the Ramayana, when Pandu's younger queen Madri throws herself upon his funeral pyre, leaving her children in the care of Kunti). I would appreciate any answers, any advice. If anyone can point me in the right direction, suggest sources of information...I would be really grateful. With regards, Rohini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 INDOLOGY , Rohini Chowdhury <rohini_chowdhury wrote: > I have been studying the memoirs and journals of European travellers to India in the early days of the East India Company. My research has been confined to the Private Papers contained in the India Office records of the East India Company. .... > So my questions - How old is the practice of sati? When did it start? Why? Was it practised all over india? What evidence can one find - apart from that contained in the history textbooks? (From my very limited knowledge, the earliest mention of sati that I can recall is in the Ramayana, when Pandu's younger queen Madri throws herself upon his funeral pyre, leaving her children in the care of Kunti). In an article Enrica Garzilla presented what Greek and Latin sources said on sahagamana (= sati). The bibliographical data: Garzilli, Enrica: First greek and Latin documents on Sahagamana and some connected problems. In: Indo-Iranian Journal. - Vol. 40 (1997), pp. 205-243, 339-365 One of the most recent monographs on Sati is probably: Major, Andrea: Pious Flames : European Encounters with Sati, 1500-1830 / by Andrea Major. - New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2006. - X, 258 pp.: ill. ISBN 0-19-567818-4 / ISBN-13 978-0-19-567818-5 Recently Andrea Major published a companion volume with sources on sati/sahagamana: Major, Andrea (ed.): Sati : a historical anthology / ed. by Andrea Major. - New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2007. - ca. 510 pp. ISBN 0-19-567895-8 / 978-0-19-567895-6 Hope it helps Peter Wyzlic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Thank you very much. This seems to be exactly what I am looking for. Rohini Peter Wyzlic <pwyzlic wrote: INDOLOGY , Rohini Chowdhury <rohini_chowdhury wrote: > I have been studying the memoirs and journals of European travellers to India in the early days of the East India Company. My research has been confined to the Private Papers contained in the India Office records of the East India Company. .... > So my questions - How old is the practice of sati? When did it start? Why? Was it practised all over india? What evidence can one find - apart from that contained in the history textbooks? (From my very limited knowledge, the earliest mention of sati that I can recall is in the Ramayana, when Pandu's younger queen Madri throws herself upon his funeral pyre, leaving her children in the care of Kunti). In an article Enrica Garzilla presented what Greek and Latin sources said on sahagamana (= sati). The bibliographical data: Garzilli, Enrica: First greek and Latin documents on Sahagamana and some connected problems. In: Indo-Iranian Journal. - Vol. 40 (1997), pp. 205-243, 339-365 One of the most recent monographs on Sati is probably: Major, Andrea: Pious Flames : European Encounters with Sati, 1500-1830 / by Andrea Major. - New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2006. - X, 258 pp.: ill. ISBN 0-19-567818-4 / ISBN-13 978-0-19-567818-5 Recently Andrea Major published a companion volume with sources on sati/sahagamana: Major, Andrea (ed.): Sati : a historical anthology / ed. by Andrea Major. - New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2007. - ca. 510 pp. ISBN 0-19-567895-8 / 978-0-19-567895-6 Hope it helps Peter Wyzlic What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis of your email personality. Take the quiz at the Mail Championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 Thank you so very much for this! 'Giacamma'...what could be the woman's name? I can't think. The account is fascinating - though I do find it a little unbelievable that a stranger, a foreigner, and a man could actually have approached and held a conversation with a woman about to become a sati. Could this really have happened? Or could Della Valle have been embroidering his story just a little bit? Any thoughts on this? Ro Frances Pritchett <fp7 wrote: Here are some excerpts from Pietro Della Valle, including his account of his conversation with a woman planning to become a sati: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00generallinks/dellavalle/index.htm\ l Fran On Mon, 2 Apr 2007, Rohini Chowdhury wrote: > Hi, > > I have been directed to this group by my friend Mr Manish Modi of the Hindi Granth Karyalay. > > I have been studying the memoirs and journals of European travellers to India in the early days of the East India Company. My research has been confined to the Private Papers contained in the India Office records of the East India Company. > > In one of the documents - a letter dated 1580, written from Cochin by a Portuguese trader to his business associate in Lisbon - sati is mentioned as a common practice among the Kings of southern India, and outside the Portuguese settlements, as a common practice among the people. I find this strange - because as far as I know, sati was not practised that far south or west. Could this be just sensationalist reporting 'back home' of a strange new country that very few were familiar with at the time? Or was sati really practised even in the south/west of India? > > A later account, dated 1669-79 but possibly written in 1680, by one Thomas Bowery, gives a detailed account of a sati he sees in Surat, with drawings. This account seems genuine, and I wouldn't dismiss it in a hurry as sensationalist. > > So my questions - How old is the practice of sati? When did it start? Why? Was it practised all over india? What evidence can one find - apart from that contained in the history textbooks? (From my very limited knowledge, the earliest mention of sati that I can recall is in the Ramayana, when Pandu's younger queen Madri throws herself upon his funeral pyre, leaving her children in the care of Kunti). > > I would appreciate any answers, any advice. If anyone can point me in the right direction, suggest sources of information...I would be really grateful. > > With regards, > Rohini > > > > Inbox full of unwanted email? Get leading protection and 1GB storage with All New Mail. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2007 Report Share Posted April 4, 2007 INDOLOGY , Frances Pritchett <fp7 wrote: > Here are some excerpts from Pietro Della Valle, including his > account of his conversation with a woman planning to become a sati: > http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00generallinks/dellavall e/index.html Many other ancient, medieval and modern references to the practice of sati in India are quoted in the entry " Suttee " of Sir Henry Yule's good old _Hobson-Jobson_ at: http://tinyurl.com/2np39m Regards, Francesco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Dear Enrica, Thank you. This is most interesting. I will look up your articles. What I find even more interesting than the accounts of sati, are the misconceptions that most people in India today seem to hold regarding sati: 1. That sati was a 'medieval evil', which began as a result of Muslim invasions, when Hindu men sought to protect their women from the invaders (all older accounts of sati are usually ignored, or given some other name/justification). 2. That sati was NEVER practised in the south or west of India, that it was restricted to the Rajputs of Rajasthan, and a few misguided followers of Rajput 'culture' in the north. History textbooks say the same. With regards, Rohini Enrica Garzilli <garzilli wrote: Dear Rohini, the historians of Alexander the Great (326 BCE) already wrote about sati. I think you might find some answers to your questions in 1) Enrica Garzilli, " First Greek and Latin Documents on Sahagamana and Some Connected Problems " part 1, in Indo-Iranian Journal, vol. 40, no. 3 (July 1997), pp. 205 - 243. (The article deals with the recommended custom for Hindu women of burning alive on their husband's pyre, called sati, in unedited Greek and Latin documents and in Sanskrit literature) 2) Idem, " First Greek and Latin Documents on Sahagamana and Some Connected Problems " part 2, in Indo-Iranian Journal, vol. 40, no. 4 (November 1997), pp. 339 - 365. (The 2nd part of the article deals with sati in mediaeval law books in the light of the description of the suggested self-sacrifice by fire in unedited first Greek and Latin documents) Best, Enrica Garzilli www.asiatica.org So my questions - How old is the practice of sati? When did it start? Why? Was it practised all over india? What evidence can one find - apart from that contained in the history textbooks? (From my very limited knowledge, the earliest mention of sati that I can recall is in the Ramayana, when Pandu's younger queen Madri throws herself upon his funeral pyre, leaving her children in the care of Kunti). I would appreciate any answers, any advice. If anyone can point me in the right direction, suggest sources of information...I would be really grateful. With regards, Rohini Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Tryit now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Thank you, especially, for the Hobson-Jobson link. :-) I had completely forgotten all about H-J ! Regards, Rohini Francesco Brighenti <frabrig wrote: INDOLOGY , Frances Pritchett <fp7 wrote: > Here are some excerpts from Pietro Della Valle, including his > account of his conversation with a woman planning to become a sati: > http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00generallinks/dellavall e/index.html Many other ancient, medieval and modern references to the practice of sati in India are quoted in the entry " Suttee " of Sir Henry Yule's good old _Hobson-Jobson_ at: http://tinyurl.com/2np39m Regards, Francesco Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your freeaccount today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Dear Rohini, He certainly seems to have had local guides and translators among his traveling party. As for whether he's embroidering, who can say? It's a great issue for discussion. I'm seeking to provide " discussable " primary-source material for classroom use on my website, so I just chose some good episodes from his account, and I haven't tried to judge their accuracy. I don't know where " Olaza " is either, though I'd love to find out! fp On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Rohini Chowdhury wrote: > Thank you so very much for this! > > 'Giacamma'...what could be the woman's name? I can't think. > > The account is fascinating - though I do find it a little unbelievable > that a stranger, a foreigner, and a man could actually have approached > and held a conversation with a woman about to become a sati. Could this > really have happened? Or could Della Valle have been embroidering his > story just a little bit? Any thoughts on this? > > Ro > > > > Frances Pritchett <fp7 wrote: > > Here are some excerpts from Pietro Della Valle, including his account of > his conversation with a woman planning to become a sati: > > http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00generallinks/dellavalle/index.htm\ l > > Fran > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2007 Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 Learned friends, Jay Jinendra Whereas the name Giacamma (allowing for spelling errors) does seem feasible in Andhra Pradesh, it is very likely that the account is less accurate than we would like it to be. We must allow not only for embellishments and faulty memory (which is why nyayashastris do not admit smrti as a pramana) but also factually incorrect data received by the writer. In my own experience, people often say things that they think the other guy wants to hear. Else, they may put their own spin to it, for vested interests of their own. So we have to allow for this factor while assessing the accuracy or otherwise of socio-historical accounts. The problem is that there isn't substantial data available. So how does one go forward? How does one deal with what one has in hand? M PS A glaring example of other issues clouding assessment is the fairly modern work by a very highly regarded dalit writer titled Kabir: Hajariprasad Dvivedi ka Praksipta Cintana, on Pt Hajariprasad Dvivedi's work on Kabir entitled Kabir, which was first published by my great-grandfather in the middle of the 20th century and is now published by Rajkamal Prakashan. The work by Dvivedi is really very good and is truly an excellent academic effort. But apparently, the modern writer kept in mind the brahmanic background of Dvivedi and hence saw his Kabir as a condescending and biased assessment of Kabir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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