Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 - Wednesday, October 08, 2008 12:39 AM Digest Number 1326 Om Namah Shivaya Shivaya Namah Om Gengis Thanks for your interpration & your thoughts Few Corrections Ramanuja was not a shaivete and he did not convert to either.. Vaishnavism was there even before the existence of Adhi Sankara It is just that Ramanuja wrote on Commentaries on Brahma Sutra and few other works to re establish vaishnavism school of thought ( Vishishtadwaitham) There were lot of Saints & Scholars were born prior to Ramanuja who spread and followed Vaishnavism like Saint Nathamuni, Alavandhar, Alwars & many mahans who sung lot of hymns in the name of Naryana & prostrated Sanathana Dharma. Neither of the above mahans did any thing against the follower of Shiva or Shaivetes, it is just their way of life and nothing else. People who either studied the theology of Advaitham or Vishishtadwaitham would not insult any of the GOD's either it is Naryana followers or Shiva Followers Hari Om Regards Krishna Chennai Re: Why Vaishnavites insult Shaivtes Posted by: "genghis1291" genghis genghis1291 Mon Oct 6, 2008 9:33 pm (PDT) There is a lot of misinformation about the beliefs on either sidecontributing to the superficial tensions...In the mix are:1. The Purusha Suktam from the Rig Veda2. The Brahma Sutra of Badrayana (like a commentary on the PurushaSuktam)3. Adi Shankara and his commentary on the Brahma Sutra4. Possible MIS-interpretations/extrapolations by the naive onShankara's commentary - this apparently led to serious intellectual andmoral degradation in Shaivite society in the 200 years after Shankara5. Ramanujacharya, a Shaivite-turned Vaishnavite who came 200 yearsafter Shankara and his commentary on the Brahma Sutra. The naive amongShaivites claim Ramanuja refuted Shankara...he did no such thing...infact, he relied very heavily on Shankara's work,; he also went to theFULL original of the Brahma Sutra (not the abridged 4-page versionrelied on by Shankara and others in his time) and has categoricallystated that he provided further clarity on Shankara's work.If people are interested in this topic, I will provide a brief overviewlaterGenghis Messages In This Digest (9 Messages) 1a. Re: Why Vaishnavites insult Shaivtes mohan dadlani 1b. Re: Why Vaishnavites insult Shaivtes genghis1291 1c. Re: Why Vaishnavites / Shaivtes vivek 1d. The beggar who sold his Ferrari.Mail Scanned paramesvaran_p 1e. Re: Why Vaishnavites / Shaivtes Dr N Bhashyam 1f. Re: Why Vaishnavites insult Shaivtes RAHUL 1g. Re: Why Vaishnavites / Shaivtes Ravishankar Gopal 2. Vedas and Adi Sankara - Part 9 By Sri.Sri.Muralidhara Swamiji. Ravishankar Gopal 3a. Divine Mother 8 Selvaratnam Selvakumar View All Topics | Create New Topic Messages 1a. Re: Why Vaishnavites insult Shaivtes Posted by: "mohan dadlani" mohan_dadlani Mon Oct 6, 2008 6:42 pm (PDT) In my view Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu are 2 sides of the same coin.God is one, we humans can call in different names.It is not worthwhile to engage in any arguments on this issue. Let Hindus unite and not waste time and energy in unnecessary arguments.Om Shant, Shanti, Shanti From: bhatnagar_shailendra: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 15:27:48 +0000 Re: Why Vaishnavites insult ShaivtesOm Namah SivayaNamaste, This is a sensitive topic so it is better not to discuss it. This one mantra from Kaivalya Upanishat seals the matter without controversy : sa brahmaa sa shivaH sendraH so.aksharaH paramaH svaraaT .sa eva vishhNuH sa praaNaH sa kaalo.agniH sa chandramaaH (Brahma, Shiv, Indra, Om, Vishnu, Prana, Kaal, Agni, Chandrama etc are all one - the absolute/OM/infinity).Secondly, there can be only one infinity. regards,Shailendra ________Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from Jamie.http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (9) 1b. Re: Why Vaishnavites insult Shaivtes Posted by: "genghis1291" genghis genghis1291 Mon Oct 6, 2008 9:33 pm (PDT) There is a lot of misinformation about the beliefs on either sidecontributing to the superficial tensions...In the mix are:1. The Purusha Suktam from the Rig Veda2. The Brahma Sutra of Badrayana (like a commentary on the PurushaSuktam)3. Adi Shankara and his commentary on the Brahma Sutra4. Possible MIS-interpretations/extrapolations by the naive onShankara's commentary - this apparently led to serious intellectual andmoral degradation in Shaivite society in the 200 years after Shankara5. Ramanujacharya, a Shaivite-turned Vaishnavite who came 200 yearsafter Shankara and his commentary on the Brahma Sutra. The naive amongShaivites claim Ramanuja refuted Shankara...he did no such thing...infact, he relied very heavily on Shankara's work,; he also went to theFULL original of the Brahma Sutra (not the abridged 4-page versionrelied on by Shankara and others in his time) and has categoricallystated that he provided further clarity on Shankara's work.If people are interested in this topic, I will provide a brief overviewlaterGenghis , mohan dadlani<mohan_dadlani wrote:>>> In my view Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu are 2 sides of the same coin.> God is one, we humans can call in different names.> It is not worthwhile to engage in any arguments on this issue. LetHindus unite and not waste time and energy in unnecessary arguments.> Om Shant, Shanti, Shanti>>>> : bhatnagar_shailendra: Mon, 6 Oct2008 15:27:48 +0000 Re: WhyVaishnavites insult Shaivtes>>>>> Om Namah SivayaNamaste, This is a sensitive topic so it is better notto discuss it. This one mantra from Kaivalya Upanishat seals the matterwithout controversy : sa brahmaa sa shivaH sendraH so.aksharaH paramaHsvaraaT .sa eva vishhNuH sa praaNaH sa kaalo.agniH sa chandramaaH(Brahma, Shiv, Indra, Om, Vishnu, Prana, Kaal, Agni, Chandrama etc areall one - the absolute/OM/infinity).Secondly, there can be only oneinfinity. regards,Shailendra>>>>>> ________> Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets"from Jamie.>http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cn\s!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008> Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (9) 1c. Re: Why Vaishnavites / Shaivtes Posted by: "vivek" vivek151974 vivek151974 Mon Oct 6, 2008 11:29 pm (PDT) Well said Mr Mohan. In om_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com, mohan dadlani<mohan_dadlani@ ...> wrote:>>> In my view Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu are 2 sides of the same coin.> God is one, we humans can call in different names.> It is not worthwhile to engage in any arguments on this issue. LetHindus unite and not waste time and energy in unnecessary arguments.> Om Shant, Shanti, Shanti> --- On Tue, 10/7/08, genghis1291 <genghis (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:genghis1291 <genghis (AT) comcast (DOT) net> Re: Why Vaishnavites insult Shaivtes Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 8:46 AMThere is a lot of misinformation about the beliefs on either sidecontributing to the superficial tensions...In the mix are:1. The Purusha Suktam from the Rig Veda2. The Brahma Sutra of Badrayana (like a commentary on the PurushaSuktam)3. Adi Shankara and his commentary on the Brahma Sutra4. Possible MIS-interpretations /extrapolations by the naive onShankara's commentary - this apparently led to serious intellectual andmoral degradation in Shaivite society in the 200 years after Shankara5. Ramanujacharya, a Shaivite-turned Vaishnavite who came 200 yearsafter Shankara and his commentary on the Brahma Sutra. The naive amongShaivites claim Ramanuja refuted Shankara...he did no such thing...infact, he relied very heavily on Shankara's work,; he also went to theFULL original of the Brahma Sutra (not the abridged 4-page versionrelied on by Shankara and others in his time) and has categoricallystated that he provided further clarity on Shankara's work.If people are interested in this topic, I will provide a brief overviewlaterGenghisom_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com, mohan dadlani<mohan_dadlani@ ...> wrote:>>> In my view Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu are 2 sides of the same coin.> God is one, we humans can call in different names.> It is not worthwhile to engage in any arguments on this issue. LetHindus unite and not waste time and energy in unnecessary arguments.> Om Shant, Shanti, Shanti>>>> om_namah_shivaya_ group : bhatnagar_shailendr a: Mon, 6 Oct2008 15:27:48 +0000[om_namah_shivaya_ group] Re: WhyVaishnavites insult Shaivtes>>>>> Om Namah SivayaNamaste, This is a sensitive topic so it is better notto discuss it. This one mantra from Kaivalya Upanishat seals the matterwithout controversy : sa brahmaa sa shivaH sendraH so.aksharaH paramaHsvaraaT .sa eva vishhNuH sa praaNaH sa kaalo.agniH sa chandramaaH(Brahma, Shiv, Indra, Om, Vishnu, Prana, Kaal, Agni, Chandrama etc areall one - the absolute/OM/ infinity) .Secondly, there can be only oneinfinity. regards,Shailendra>>>>>> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets"from Jamie.>http://windowslive. com/connect/ post/jamiethomso n.spaces. live.com- Blog-cn\s!550F681DAD532637! 5295.entry? ocid=TXT_ TAGLM_WL_ domore_092008> Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (9) 1d. The beggar who sold his Ferrari.Mail Scanned Posted by: "paramesvaran_p" paramesvaran_p guyramesh Mon Oct 6, 2008 11:31 pm (PDT) In my quest for enlightenment I found the following three groups of people ...i) Those who dont debate on religion/spiritualism, because they are neither inclined or knowledgeable in a topic.ii) Those who debate , because they are in the quest for knowledge or believe they are in the position to correct fellow aspirants.iii) Those who dont/have stopped debating because there is absolutely nothing to debate about, everything is perfekt , even those issues seemingly imperfekt to human interpretation, even the contradicting doctrines of various religions , even the misguided friend we are debating with or even theimperfekt spellings ...However, discussions are definitely necessary because 'group intelligence' is superior to 'individual intelligence' and can contribute to faster evolutionof individual consciousness. Here is an interesting article on 'swarm behaviour' by National Geographichttp://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0707/feature5/You may notice this article does not have direct relation to our group objectives, yet at the higher level, we get a glimpse of how the creator have programmed the direction of total evolution at each small step and decision we make.Regards,Ramesh. Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (9) 1e. Re: Why Vaishnavites / Shaivtes Posted by: "Dr N Bhashyam" drnbhashyam drnbhashyam Tue Oct 7, 2008 1:45 am (PDT) This is a yet another fruitless debate of idle men akin to blinds discussingas to how elephant looks.Neither know the truth and what tiny little theyknow is an insignificant part of the gigantic whole which is very muchbeyond the comprehension of human knowledge and small mind.N BhashyamOn Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 1:41 AM, vivek <vivek151974 > wrote:> *Well said Mr Mohan.*>> *In **om_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com*<http://us.mc562.mail./mc/compose?to=%40>> *, mohan dadlani> <mohan_dadlani@ ...> wrote:> >> >> > In my view Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu are 2 sides of the same coin.> > God is one, we humans can call in different names.> > It is not worthwhile to engage in any arguments on this issue. Let> Hindus unite and not waste time and energy in unnecessary arguments.> > Om Shant, Shanti, Shanti> *>>>>> --- On *Tue, 10/7/08, genghis1291 <genghis (AT) comcast (DOT) net>* wrote:>> genghis1291 <genghis (AT) comcast (DOT) net>> Re: Why Vaishnavites insult Shaivtes> > Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 8:46 AM>> There is a lot of misinformation about the beliefs on either side> contributing to the superficial tensions...In the mix are:>> 1. The Purusha Suktam from the Rig Veda>> 2. The Brahma Sutra of Badrayana (like a commentary on the Purusha> Suktam)>> 3. Adi Shankara and his commentary on the Brahma Sutra>> 4. Possible MIS-interpretations /extrapolations by the naive on> Shankara's commentary - this apparently led to serious intellectual and> moral degradation in Shaivite society in the 200 years after Shankara>> 5. Ramanujacharya, a Shaivite-turned Vaishnavite who came 200 years> after Shankara and his commentary on the Brahma Sutra. The naive among> Shaivites claim Ramanuja refuted Shankara...he did no such thing...in> fact, he relied very heavily on Shankara's work,; he also went to the> FULL original of the Brahma Sutra (not the abridged 4-page version> relied on by Shankara and others in his time) and has categorically> stated that he provided further clarity on Shankara's work.>> If people are interested in this topic, I will provide a brief overview> later>> Genghis>> om_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com<%40>,> mohan dadlani> <mohan_dadlani@ ...> wrote:> >> >> > In my view Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu are 2 sides of the same coin.> > God is one, we humans can call in different names.> > It is not worthwhile to engage in any arguments on this issue. Let> Hindus unite and not waste time and energy in unnecessary arguments.> > Om Shant, Shanti, Shanti> >> >> >> > om_namah_shivaya_ group : bhatnagar_shailendr a: Mon, 6 Oct> 2008 15:27:48 +0000[om_namah_shivaya_ group] Re: Why> Vaishnavites insult Shaivtes> >> >> >> >> > Om Namah SivayaNamaste, This is a sensitive topic so it is better not> to discuss it. This one mantra from Kaivalya Upanishat seals the matter> without controversy : sa brahmaa sa shivaH sendraH so.aksharaH paramaH> svaraaT .sa eva vishhNuH sa praaNaH sa kaalo.agniH sa chandramaaH> (Brahma, Shiv, Indra, Om, Vishnu, Prana, Kaal, Agni, Chandrama etc are> all one - the absolute/OM/ infinity) .Secondly, there can be only one> infinity. regards,Shailendra> >> >> >> >> >> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> > Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets"> from Jamie.> >> http://windowslive. com/connect/ post/jamiethomso n.spaces. live.com-> Blog-cn\> s<http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns>!550F681DAD532637!> 5295.entry? ocid=TXT_ TAGLM_WL_ domore_092008> >>>> > Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (9) 1f. Re: Why Vaishnavites insult Shaivtes Posted by: "RAHUL" toneyrahulsharma toneyrahulsharma Tue Oct 7, 2008 3:32 am (PDT) Hello PrajwalprabhuMy friend there are many ways to reach temple all the ways leads you to the Lord how we reach is not the concern did we reach or not or still trying is the concern. Please read this story hope I try to help you. My friend this coming from a Shiv bhakt makes me sad there are many times Lord Shiva have mention that all the tridev are the same even thinking about in such a way is doing bad Karma. Like the one he did for Shaligram ShilaMallinga Kotibhi Drsthi Yad Phalam Pujiti | Salagrama Sila Yamtu Ekasyam Iva Tad Bhaved ||The merit obtained by seeing and worshipping hundreds of thousands of My Lingams, is equivalent to that obtained by worshipping one single salagrama sila. Drstva Pranamita Yena Snapita Pujita Tatha |Yajna Koti Samam Punyam Gavam Koti Phalam Bhavet ||Lord Siva spoke to Skanda, any person who has seen Salagram Sila, paid obeisances to Him, bathed and worshipped Him, has achieved the results of performing ten million sacrifices and giving ten million cows in charity. (SKANDA PURANA)In the Skanda Purana Lord Shiva tells Parvati that one who takes the caranamrita of saligram destroys all sinful reactions at their roots, even the killing of a brahmana. Elsewhere the Skanda Purana states that by taking the remnants of foodstuffs offered to saligram, one will get the result of performing many sacrifices.This is story based on Bhavnath Shiv Ling located in Gujarat near the Girnar parvath, how it came into existence http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ4xDh0geZwOnce upon a time in Haven, Indra the King of haven had a opinion that among all the tridev only Lord Vishnu is the only Lord among all as he is the only one who come to rescue all the time for Devatas so as per him Lord Vishnu is the only mighty lord. But to this his Guru that is Guru Brahaspati has a different opinion as per him Brahma is the only true lord as he is his grand father. So both of them try to convince all the devata to believe in what they believe. Indra goes to Vaikunta and ask the Lord Vishnu that he is the only one Load and no one else to this Lord Vishnu smiles at him and says he is not and try to convince him but Indra has already formed his opinion on this. Guru Brahaspati also does the same thing he goes to Lord Brahma but gets the same response.To all this Lord Shiva gets angry and call every one to Kailasha then Lord Shiva ask Indra and Guru Brahaspati to stop what ever they are doing and ask the same question to Lord Vishnu and Lord Brahma as who is the great. To this no both replys that Lord Shiva is the greatest Lord. Lord Shiva then smiles back at them and tell them if Brahma and came to you, you might have said the same thing and if lord Vishnu have came to Brahma he might have said the same thing. Then Lord Shiva tells to both of them that when Indra came to you you should have replied that Lord Brahma is the great Lord among us, them he tell to Lord Brahma that when Guru Brahaspati came to you, you should have told that Lord Vishnu is great and both should have ended the matter then and there instead of prolonging it. Lord Shiva then tells to every one that all the Tridev are the same no one is supreme and all of you have done bad karma of thinking such a bad thing and after that all the Devatas and Lord Brahma and Vishnu agrees to do Tapasya (penance) for the bad Karma they did. So all go to a place and do the Tapasya.In matter of few time Lord Shiva comes to the place where every one is doing the tapasya and give Vardan(wish) to all and all ask the Lord to stay there in the form of Ling so that everyone remembers this and worship him. Lord Has Created many distractions it is us how has to come out of this to see the Lord.OM Nama Shivya , "prajwalprabhu" <prajwalprabhu wrote:>> Shivaism and Vishnuism as they appear in modern India differ in > various ways> but most importantly in one principal area: Vishnuites worship Lord > Vishnu> as Supreme Lord and Shivaites worship Lord Shiva as Supreme Lord. > There are> some Shivaite sects who recognize Lord Vishnu's superior position but> it is not the case of Vaishnavites. They call Lord Shiva Jagadisha > (Lord of the> Universe), whereas Vaisnavas Lord Vishnu as> He is the True Lord of the Universe.> > This attitude of the Vaishnavities is highly offensive to Lord > shivaites, Followers of Iskcon have gone one step forward by making > vague comments on Shiva, Ganesha and other Hindus Gods. You accept > that Shiva is the greatest devotee of Vishnu (Parama Bhagavata > Uttama). You quote the scripture also in this context (Vaishnavanaam > Yatha Sambhuh). In such case, a follower of Vishnu who insults Lord > Shiva must be ashamed, since he is contradicting the very philosophy > of the original preacher of his own Vaishnava cult. The scriptures > also say that Krishna worshiped Lord Shiva and also> Narayana worshiped Lord Shiva on the mountain of Meru. The scripture > also says that Lord Vishnu became Mohini and became the wife of Lord > Shiva and gave birth to Sashta. Therefore, it is foolish to fight > with each other without understanding the preachers and the various > forms of the same God. Narayana means the source of divine > knowledge. This> word indicates only Parabrahman. The knowledge is not the inherent > sign of the unimaginable God (Parabrahman). God is only the source > or basis for the knowledge. This is indicated by the word Narayana. > Shiva means auspicious without any second impurity. God being the > absolute truth is one without second and therefore, becomes the > purest entity.> Purity is the auspicious quality (Shiva). The Veda also says that > Shiva is one without second (Advaitah Shivah). Rudra means the God, > who punishes the sinners and make them weep (Rodayati iti Rudrah). > If you recognize the concept of unimaginable God and the energetic > forms as media, you will be clear. I appreciate you for having come > to the> height of the human incarnation (Manusheem Tanum Asritam - Gita). > You will come to the final point of the divine knowledge, if you > accept the existence of human incarnation in every generation by > following> the same Gita.> > > A year back when I was on a trip to Bangalore, i made a visit to an > Iskcon Temple in Bangalore (Mind you their are two temples divided > on two different vaishnava Ideology). However, i made a visit to a > visit to smaller temple known as Puri Jaganath temple in an interior > locality. I came across a group of women discussing greatness about > vaishnavism, Krishna bhakti etc., Seated at a corner, one middle > aged women approached me and introduced herself as Shamabhavi. She > inquired about me and I introduced myself and told her that I am on > a visit to India and am learning about the Greatnes of both > Vaishnavism and Shavism. Without giving time any room she started > her discourses from Bhagavad Gita, Srimad Bhagavtham. She kept on > talking about Vaishnavism and at the regular intervals spitting > venom on Shaivism. Inspite my disinterest in her subject, she kept > pouncing with her over sub-dued knowledge, she did not have mercy on > me and kept speaking. I was so upset with the way she kept making > derogatory remarks on Lord Shiva and his consort Goddess Shakti, > Even other Gods like Muruga, Ganeshji were not spared. It was > indeed offensive on her part to insult Shiva and her followers by > stating that they are followers of Maya who will never attain > liberation. When I lost my patience, i interrogated her like, like > what authority does she possess or Iskcon have to blasphemy other > gods? She felt perplexed, and subsequently, she kept saying that > Krishna is Supreme and others are Demi-gods and we should not pray. > It did not stop her their. She quoted from a Iskcon Text "that all > followers of Iskcon were natural Brahmins and are sure to attain > liberation on the judgement day". However when I put the same > question in an affivermative manner about Shaivties, she > remarked "They cannot attain liberation ". > Despite hearing all nonesense from that middle aged lady who already > claims that Vaishnava Heavens are at Doorstep, i could only feel > pity on her ignorance and arrogance what in sanskrit is known as > Aaankhar. I was no mood to argue with that lady very soon we > exchanged greetings and our contact numbers, I left the place. > However if someone wishes to give that lady some lessons of Both > vaishnavism and Shaivaism, you may contact her on 0091 80 23369779, > her name is . Shamabhavi.> > That was the only number she has provided me at that time> > > In this spiritual ladder, the Iskcon is a conservative Hinduism. They> believe only one past human incarnation like conservative Christians> who believe Jesus only. In this stage the development of their > aspects> shall be done by generalizing the same God in all the past human> incarnations through Universal Spirituality (Krishna, Buddha, Jesus> etc.,). They should also extend such generalized concept to the> present human incarnation also. You can apply the philosophy of> Advaita to all the human incarnations instead of all the human > beings.> Just like the same soul (Pure awareness) exists in all the human> beings, similarly the same unimaginable God exists in all the human> incarnations. The same concept can be applied to a specified group of> energetic forms like Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva etc. Only such divine> specific energetic forms are equal since the same unimaginable God> exists in all those specified energetic forms. You should not> generalize this concept to all the energetic forms like Indra, Vayu> etc. Such concept will remove the misunderstanding in the followers > of> Ramanuja and Madhva who feel that only one energetic form> 'Narayana' (Vishnu) is God. I am amazed to see this conservative> concept even in the formless aspect of God! The Brahman of Hindus, > the> Jehovah of Christians and Allah of Muslims are formless. But still> they fight with each other even in this formless aspect of God. That> means they are differentiating the formless air as Hindu air,> Christian air and Muslim air! At least we can excuse the difference > in> the forms of God, since the external forms differ. Krishna and Jesus> differ in the external forms and the unity is only in the internal> God. I assuredly tell you that you will not get the final salvation> unless you are liberated from this conservative bond. What is the use> of liberation from all the bonds except one bond? You are relieved> from the ties of several ropes but if one tie of rope still exists,> you cannot be declared as the completely liberated soul.> > > > You say that Krishna generated Rudra to mislead some devotees in the> spiritual path. Krishna is a recent incarnation whereas Rudra exists> even before the birth of Krishna. It is said in Bhagavatam that> Krishna did penance for Lord Shiva. If you say that Narayana is fixed> in Lord Vishnu only as a word of Yoga Rudha, then we can also fix> words like Shiva, Ishwara, Maheswara etc., in Lord Rudra as words of> Yoga Rudha. In Gita spoken by Lord Krishna, the words like Ishwara > and> Maheswara exist in the place of God (Ishwara Sarva Bhutanam, > Mayinamtu> Maheswaram, Karta Bhokta Maheswarah etc.,). This means your Lord> Krishna Himself accepted that Lord Rudra is God. In the Veda, the > word> Eesha is used to mean God in the beginning of Eesavaasya Upanishat.> > Shankara diverted atheists who were demons to become theists only. He> did not mislead any soul from good to bad. God always tries to uplift> the souls but does not mislead any soul. But He was constrained by> limitations. The standards of atheists cannot be raised suddenly from> ground to sky in which case they will go back. In the view of such> psychology, Shankara dragged them up to some distance, which is the> maximum extent in their case. Above that there is the danger of> fatigue. He purposefully told that soul is God so that the atheist is> attracted by His native ambition and at least accept the existence of> God. You say that such trick of Shankara as misleading the soul! In> that case, the mother who gives food to her child by stating that the> moon will come down if the child eats the food is also fraud and> cheating the child! Shankara and Ramanuja know the spiritual > knowledge> from beginning to end because both are the incarnations of the same> God. Shankara introduced that much part of the truth which alone can> maintain the receivers. More than that will end in the total damage.> This is not the fault of Shankara. It is the limitation of standards> of the then atheists to whom only Shankara had to preach.> > When Ramanuja came the situation was better. He handled the believers> in God. He separated God from the soul. He showed God in the > energetic> form called as Narayana. He could not introduce the human incarnation> (Krishna) because the theists could not digest the human form of God> at that time. Up to this everything is correct in view of the then> existing standards of the receivers.> > > You say that simple theoretical devotion is sufficient to please God> and you quoted a verse from the Gita (Satatam keertayantah...). What> about other verses which praise the practical devotion like the> sacrifice of work and fruit of work? Even in your verse, you have not> understood the meaning of "Yatantascha Drudhavratah". The word> Yatantah means practical effort (Purusha Prayatna). The word> Drudhavratah is associated with this word, which means that the> practical effort comes only by firm determination.> > > PRAJWAL PRABHU > > MAURITIUS> Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (9) 1g. Re: Why Vaishnavites / Shaivtes Posted by: "Ravishankar Gopal" ravishankar_g ravishankar_g Tue Oct 7, 2008 9:19 am (PDT) Radhe Krishna To all, As I am away from B'lore my postngs are little irreugular pl bear with me. I read the mail and thought to share my views on this topic. Our Swamiji use to say that, Cold water is beneficial to a thirsty person but is definitely harmful for a sick person like wise though the content of rice is the same but still it iscalled as Arisi in tamil, Akki in Kannada and Batha in Hindi. Why the same item is called differently. If we analyze it is very clear that only due to different cultural changes over a period of time the same content have taken different names. Though rice flour (mavu) is themain content for Idly,Dosa and Uttappam is it possible for any one to continuously eat Idly¢s or dosa¢s etc all the time...... The concept of that reality is one and the same however they were needed to suit the occasion, time and nature of men. Since we are all different in our thoughts where one common path is not suited, these different paths were established by these sages so as to suit our conditioning of our minds and to choose the path and reach the destination.Further Hinduism degenerated on account of creeping in of superstitious beliefs and false worship, and hence great sages were born from time to time to remove the catastrophe and establish Dharma . They preached according to the time, place, conditions and requirements. . For the earnest spiritual seekers Chanting of the Maha Mantra is enough. Radhe KrishnaRavishankar.G--- On Mon, 10/6/08, vivek <vivek151974 > wrote:vivek <vivek151974 >Re: Re: Why Vaishnavites / Shaivtes Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 10:41 PMWell said Mr Mohan. In om_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com, mohan dadlani<mohan_dadlani@ ...> wrote:>>> In my view Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu are 2 sides of the same coin.> God is one, we humans can call in different names.> It is not worthwhile to engage in any arguments on this issue. LetHindus unite and not waste time and energy in unnecessary arguments.> Om Shant, Shanti, Shanti> --- On Tue, 10/7/08, genghis1291 <genghis (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:genghis1291 <genghis (AT) comcast (DOT) net>[om_namah_shivaya_ group] Re: Why Vaishnavites insult Shaivtesom_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.comTuesday, October 7, 2008, 8:46 AMThere is a lot of misinformation about the beliefs on either sidecontributing to the superficial tensions...In the mix are:1. The Purusha Suktam from the Rig Veda2. The Brahma Sutra of Badrayana (like a commentary on the PurushaSuktam)3. Adi Shankara and his commentary on the Brahma Sutra4. Possible MIS-interpretations /extrapolations by the naive onShankara's commentary - this apparently led to serious intellectual andmoral degradation in Shaivite society in the 200 years after Shankara5. Ramanujacharya, a Shaivite-turned Vaishnavite who came 200 yearsafter Shankara and his commentary on the Brahma Sutra. The naive amongShaivites claim Ramanuja refuted Shankara...he did no such thing...infact, he relied very heavily on Shankara's work,; he also went to theFULL original of the Brahma Sutra (not the abridged 4-page versionrelied on by Shankara and others in his time) and has categoricallystated that he provided further clarity on Shankara's work.If people are interested in this topic, I will provide a brief overviewlaterGenghisom_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com, mohan dadlani<mohan_dadlani@ ...> wrote:>>> In my view Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu are 2 sides of the same coin.> God is one, we humans can call in different names.> It is not worthwhile to engage in any arguments on this issue. LetHindus unite and not waste time and energy in unnecessary arguments.> Om Shant, Shanti, Shanti>>>> om_namah_shivaya_ group : bhatnagar_shailendr a: Mon, 6 Oct2008 15:27:48 +0000[om_namah_shivaya_ group] Re: WhyVaishnavites insult Shaivtes>>>>> Om Namah SivayaNamaste, This is a sensitive topic so it is better notto discuss it. This one mantra from Kaivalya Upanishat seals the matterwithout controversy : sa brahmaa sa shivaH sendraH so.aksharaH paramaHsvaraaT .sa eva vishhNuH sa praaNaH sa kaalo.agniH sa chandramaaH(Brahma, Shiv, Indra, Om, Vishnu, Prana, Kaal, Agni, Chandrama etc areall one - the absolute/OM/ infinity) .Secondly, there can be only oneinfinity. regards,Shailendra>>>>>> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets"from Jamie.>http://windowslive. com/connect/ post/jamiethomso n.spaces. live.com- Blog-cn\s!550F681DAD532637! 5295.entry? ocid=TXT_ TAGLM_WL_ domore_092008> Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (9) 2. Vedas and Adi Sankara - Part 9 By Sri.Sri.Muralidhara Swamiji. Posted by: "Ravishankar Gopal" ravishankar_g ravishankar_g Tue Oct 7, 2008 9:19 am (PDT) Radhe Krishna To all,Sankara desired to take ‘sanyãsa’ (ascetic life). But His mother refused to grant the permission, as he was her only hold in life. But, one morning when the child was bathing in the river a crocodile caught the child’s legs. The mother writhed in pain seeing the child being pulled to death. The young Sankara then said to his mother, “Mother! Grant me permission to embrace ‘sanyasa ashrama’ for it is equivalent to giving up this life and taking another birth..†The mother gave her consent immediately with the only thought of saving her child’s life, even if he were to become an ascetic. She felt that she would at least be able to see her son. Sankara at once took the vow of sanyasa after uttering the prescribed mantra. The crocodile left its hold and the child was saved from the clutches of death. Having embraced ‘sanyasa ashrama’ Sankara did not return home. The mother wept seeing her only child and holds in this life leave her. Shewondered who would perform her last rites. He consoled the weeping mother, “Mother! Do not grieve. I have been born not just for you but for the whole world. Wherever I am the moment you think of me I will come to your side. I will be with you in your last moment and perform the duties of a son.†And Sankara left home to work for the benefit of the world. Sankara, in his wanderings in search of a Guru who would bestow on him the formal initiation of sanyasa ashrama reached the banks of the Narmada. Here he met his Guru Govindapada. From his Guru, Sankara learnt the Advaita philosophy and as per His advice went to Varanasi, a great place of learning. It was here that Sankara wrote commentaries on the Upanishads, the Gita, the Brahmasutras. It is in Varanasi that his disciple Sanandana walked across the river Ganges without a second thought as he was beckoned by his Master from the other bank. At each step a lotus was produced and thus he earned the name of Padmapãda (Padma-Lotus; Pãda-Feet). During his wanderings Sankara met Kumarila Bhatta and later his (Kumarila Bhatta’s) disciple Mandanamisra, a great Vedic scholar like his Guru. Defeated in a debate Mandanamisra became Sankara’s disciple and was named Suresvaracharya. Sankara traveled the length and breadth of the country. As has already been said it was an age innumerable when evil faiths had sprung up. A religious sect called the Kapalikas who believed in human sacrifice caught hold of Sankara. He readily consented to offer his body (that of a sanyasin) to please their god. However, his disciple Padmapada’s intense prayer to Lord Nrisimha was answered and Sankara was saved. It was then that Sankara composed a hymn of Lord Nrisimha in which he asks Lord Nrisimha,‘why did you save this body?’ During his travel in Karnataka Sankara was met by a brahmin couple who had a son who was dumb. The parents lamented that he showed no sign of any kind of response to anything around. Sri Sankara asked the boy, “Who are you?†and for the first time the boy spoke showing indications of being a highly spiritually evolved person. Sankara then said to the parents that he would be of no use to them and advised them to send the boy with him. Sankara named him ‘Hastamalaka’. It was during his time spent in Sringeri that Sankara was met and served by a deeply devoted disciple Giri who later became Totakachãrya, showing to the world what devotion to the Guru can do. Though dull headed,Giri, loved his Guru Sankara very deeply. He served Sankara with deep love. One day Giri was late in returning from washing his Guru’s clothes. Though it was time for the class to begin and all the students had arrived Sankara waited for this lovable disciple of his. When the disciples wondered and questioned about the delay in beginning the class, Sankara said, “Giri has not yet come!†The whole class burst out laughing. The compassionate heart of the Guru melted with deep warmth as the others laughed at his lovable disciple and the Grace sprung forth from him and engulfed Giri who was still on the banks of the river.The class of scholars was wonderstruck when in a few minutes time ‘the dull head’ came into the hall clapping andsinging the praises of his Guru in eight stanzas in Totaka metre. No amount of intellect or genius can help as does Guru’s Grace. Guru’s Grace can bestow knowledge on a person in no time. Since that day Giri came to be known as Totakacharaya as the hymn was composed in Totaka metre. !!! Will Continue !!!RegardsHare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare ----------------------- If you have any questions or doubts concerning Spirituality, Mental peace or problems in life or about dharma, please write to us by clicking here:http://www.namadwaar.org/answers/askquestion.phpHis Holiness Sri Sri Swamiji personally answers these questions for you and suggests prayers. ------------------------- Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (1) 3a. Divine Mother 8 Posted by: "Selvaratnam Selvakumar" selvauk selvauk Tue Oct 7, 2008 9:20 am (PDT) Om Namah Sivaya Tirumantiram (verse1217) by Rishi Tirumular                   She is Siva's HalfParasakti is the Half of Him,Who sports golden matted locks,Who peels the elephantAnd dances in triumph;One their heart,Ten the handsFive the bewitching facesThree the eyes on face each. Sivaya Namah                                                 Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (2) Recent Activity 12 New MembersVisit Your Group Y! Messenger Instant hello Chat over IM with group members. w/ John McEnroe Join the All-Bran Day 10 Club. Moderator Central Join and receive produce updates. Need to Reply? Click one of the "Reply" links to respond to a specific message in the Daily Digest. 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